Religious Debate

[Jim E]

Why would you assume I haven't looked at it yet???

You're usually quick to respond, that's all, Bob.

Your words are good Krute and I respect them. I also hold a high regard for Ian as a person and respect both his conviction and resolve.

Religion ... I absolutely detest it ... a cruel, sick, twisted cult that does nothing but drive unnecessary wedges into an already complicated world ... and I have kids who have to grow up amongst this absolute brainwashing stupidity ... what I can do is teach them to be strong so that they never have to turn to such world-wrecking lies and fairy tales ... an Islam God is just as stupid as a Christian God.... and hanging around a Pastor who wants to start world war 3 by burning a koran, is not a smart thing to do ... the Catholic church is nothing more really than a den of thieves while they pass the silver tray on Sunday mornings and take even more from the poor......

Alright, I see where you're coming from, then. Not sure how good it is for your blood pressure, though.

Matter of fact, I used to be a bit that way, myself. Hated this, hated that, hated them, hated those, etc, etc.. Got me absolutely nowhere. No matter how passionately I railed against this and that, strangely I never noticed it having any effect whatsoever on the objects of my hatred.

Took a while to sink in, but I eventually came to the conclusion that hatred doesn't really work all that well. It's ineffectual, actually. Damn near useless. And since I was never much good at showing "love", (whatever that is), I decided to just get off the bus altogether. It was heading nowhere anyway.

I'm no happier for it, but then again I'm no angrier either. And the objects of my hatred still don't even know that I exist.

So, what do you think? Of those three options - hate, love, and to-hell-with-it - did I choose the right one?

[Disclaimer: I don't always manage to control my reactions to people who annoy me, as readers of the "Footage" subforum can confirm.]

So yes Krute... I say to you if you really wish to "sympathise with the believers"..... then God please help you.

To that I can only quote your own comment, Bob - "I have a high regard for Ian as a person and respect both his conviction and resolve." I agree, and since I see Ian and his fellow-believers as persons, just as I'm a person, I sympathise with their desire to find some kind of comfort in this "complicated world".

Bob, if you highly regard and respect people like Ian, you ought to try putting your considerable energy into finding a source of comfort that's more acceptable and realistic than his religion, and passing it on to him. If you did that with respect, he might take it on board. As we've discovered in this thread, showing hatred just doesn't cut it.

[Bob Sanders]

Took a while to sink in, but I eventually came to the conclusion that hatred doesn't really work all that well.

You're speaking as if I'm trying to accomplish something. I am not. I am stating my feelings... nothing more... and I state them because inquiring minds wish to know. I assumed that anyway since my name came up yet again after your initial writing to me. I did read it earlier.... just didn't answer because accomplishing something here on this board is of no interest to me. But people (including yourself) were clearly waiting for a reaction.

As for Ian Taking anything on board... that's his bag... not mine, but I would suggest to Ian that if he wishes to partake in such conversations... either come with thick skin or don't come at all. But while you're so worried for Ian please take note that I am not up on public tv threatening to burn the Christian bible in the same way that a certain Pastor is the Koran. My hatred is universal.... not one sided.

[jet]

Do the religious members think my tax should be giong towards paying for the popes visit in the uk when i have no religion.

[Ian-T]

My hatred is universal.... not one sided.

This line...as funny as it is coming from you...I have to wonder if it is true.

You (or others) mentioned (I think on several occassions) how sad it is that I would consider my child as wicked or evil etc,. etc.(just paraphrasing here). Though I know you take my belief and its sayings out of context oftentimes your declaration above is pretty much straight to the point. Since I believe we are what we eat you are basically saying you hate...or have hate in your heart towards me or people like me (though I know you've told me otherwise). In addition, that type of thinking is actually promoting the very same attitude you accuse religious folks of (religious intolerance). It's perfectly ok to disagree with someone's way of thinking etc. but it's a whole other thing to hate.

Unless of course you were kidding. Honestly though, since I believe it's hard to seperate the two...I think you might mean it. I find that sad.

As far as thick skin goes...have you read through this thread (lol)?? I've been here from the start and I'm still here. You (or one) can get as nasty as you want... I'll just continue to look past it. The nastier a person gets the more I see that it's a front. I'm not trying to change you though...just trying to understand your POV and hope that the converstaion would level out so that we are actually....talking (without all of the pot shots of course). <<<Disclaimer: This is meant to be a general statement...not pointing specifically at you bob. Based on previous posts I feel I have to mention this so as to keep it from looking like a personal attack of some sorts.

[Bob Sanders]

you are basically saying you hate...or have hate in your heart towards me or people like me

No Ian. You are dead stinking wrong on that issue. I don't hate you. In fact I don't even know you WELL ENOUGH to hate you. I have respect for your words as a person... even though I think your words and your beliefs are rather silly.

What I see in people like you (people wrapped up in religion) are people who some how fell so hard that they needed to reach out to some fairy tale in order to right what ever wrong felled you in the first place.... either that or some one who was brain washed into believing by a set of parents who THOUGHT they were doing the right thing. Either way you are now STUCK in this bottomless pit of religion through no fault of your own. That's what cults are all about.... controlling people. Of course I know you don't agree with any of this... you truly believe it is your will and want to be dependent on 'Santa Claus'... and maybe it is... but the point is I don't blame YOU for this.... I blame the cult.... and there is a BIG difference between hating a thing.... and hating a person.

As far as thick skin goes...have you read through this thread (lol)??

I'm not the one concerned with this (not that I want to see you hurt but rather the mere fact that you don't seem too concerned over it) but it seems Krute is concerned.

[Bob Sanders]

Do the religious members think my tax should be giong towards paying for the popes visit in the uk when i have no religion.

How about all these friggin churches that don't pay any property tax... at least that's the way it is in Canada.

Here's a neat one... We (The Manitoba Housing Authority) have to take over one of the buildings the downtown church owns because they screwed up on the Mortgage. We will have to pay that Mortgage and take on the up-keep of that building until such time as the Mortgage is paid.... then we will have to release it back to the church. Go figure!?!

[Dr. Benway]

Do the religious members think my tax should be giong towards paying for the popes visit in the uk when i have no religion.

Of course - because you are so blind and stupid you don't realise that he's acting on your behalf - as an advocate for all you sinners.

[Jim E]

You're speaking as if I'm trying to accomplish something. I am not. I am stating my feelings... nothing more... and I state them because inquiring minds wish to know. I assumed that anyway since my name came up yet again after your initial writing to me. I did read it earlier.... just didn't answer because accomplishing something here on this board is of no interest to me. But people (including yourself) were clearly waiting for a reaction.

Okay, on reflection I grant you that my previous post could have been seen as "waiting for a reaction". But the reaction I was waiting for was merely your reaction to what I said, way back in Post #4513, viz,

"you and I are making one big fundamental mistake here - we're forgetting that we're arguing with people who, in terms of vulnerability and humanity, are no different than ourselves.

My "enquiring mind" merely wished to know if you acknowledged that as being true. I wanted to know more about your personal criteria for politeness, courteousy, and empathy, that's all. I don't know if you're trying to accomplish anything here or not. But Bob, I have to tell you, it certainly seems that way! You're making these indepth, scathing obervations about the minutiae of modern religious malpractices, and I have no doubt your observations are accurate. But the more observations you make, the more you sound like you're "campaigning".

As for Ian Taking anything on board... that's his bag... not mine, but I would suggest to Ian that if he wishes to partake in such conversations... either come with thick skin or don't come at all.

Frankly, I think Ian has exhibited a fairly thick skin so far. I mean, you've thrown some pretty cutting stuff at him, (as I mentioned in that earlier post). If his skin wasn't holding up to the assault, I think he would have spat the dummy by now. But he keeps coming back - not the sign of a quitter.

In fact, Bob, I can almost see the subcutaneous fat through your skin right now!

I suggested to you that maybe you're going beyond the reasonable bounds of common courtesy, and your answer was to state again all your objects of hatred, and helpfully explain why you hate them so much. See, that wasn't quite the point I was trying to make, Bob.

I know you hate religion, and to be honest I don't really care why. What I wanted to know is, what is your stand on the subject of Courtesy?

But while you're so worried for Ian please take note that I am not up on public tv threatening to burn the Christian bible in the same way that a certain Pastor is the Koran. My hatred is universal.... not one sided.

Bob, do you see what I'm saying? To me it sounds like you're not listening. I show a bit of consideration for Ian and for believers like him, and you react by pointing out the difference between you and some nutcase pastor! Bob, I don't wanna know!!

I don't care how many priests or ministers or rabbis or whatever are talking sh*t and driving the rest of us crazy. They're always going to be there, doing that. You know it, and I know it.

It's not going to make one iota of difference to the guys who like to dress up in robes and funny hats and be the Star of the Religion Show, for you or me to think up insulting remarks to make to the poor, sad, hopeful masses who listen to them.

All it's going to do is raise your blood pressure to lethal levels, and make you look like a misfit. People don't give much credence to misfits. So, in the end all you're doing is shaking your fist at the sky....

The martyrs might have been willing to die upside down on a post for their beliefs, but as a confirmed sceptic, you don't want to have a stroke for yours, do you!

[Ian-T]

No Ian. You are dead stinking wrong on that issue. I don't hate you. In fact I don't even know you WELL ENOUGH to hate you. I have respect for your words as a person... even though I think your words and your beliefs are rather silly.

I was going to ask you "what does having "respect for your words as a person" mean to you?". But I think a more difficult question would be....what would YOU (Bob) consider as being "disrespectful" for "my words as a person?"

... I blame the cult.... and there is a BIG difference between hating a thing.... and hating a person.

this does not make sense. A cult does not create itself. The people behind them do. To blame a thought process for how I live or chose to believe does not add up. The individual is responsible for developing or executing that thought process. If the thought process doesn't exist then the cult does not exist. You see.... It's the individual.

[iThinkergoiMac]

Do the religious members think my tax should be giong towards paying for the popes visit in the uk when i have no religion.

Well, if you're going to ask that question, why should your tax dollars (or Euros?) go towards the visit of any dignitary? I assume you're a British citizen, not a Russian or Chinese citizen, yet dignitaries from those countries come to visit and I imagine your government also pays for that (at least sometimes). You should protest that too

It's all politics, as far as that is concerned.

For what it's worth, my recent absence has not been due to anything said in this thread, but because of a lack of time.

[iThinkergoiMac]

My friend also believes in micro evolution but not macro. This of course isn't a guarantee, but doesn't it seem like if some things evolve a little over time, wouldn't a million billion littles eventually add up to a large?

Even so, would that cause one species to evolve into an entirely different species?

As a random side question: is "scepticism" a british or european spelling? I've always seen it as "skepticism" but I've seen it spelled enough times the former that I'm beginning to wonder...

[Jim E]

I'm not the one concerned with [thin skin] (not that I want to see you hurt but rather the mere fact that you don't seem too concerned over it) but it seems Krute is concerned.

No, I'm more concerned about your blood pressure, Bob, not Ian's feelings. He doesn't need any help from me, obviously.

All I'm saying is that you'd do yourself a favour if you chilled a little. But that's probably not going to happen until Ian concedes that you're right, and what are the chances of that?

As I explained, I've been where you are. I could see all the cr*p and outright injustice and monumental ignorance in religion per se. In fact, I kinda believed that I was the only one who could. But I learned that beating the believers of religion over the head with my opinions was like bashing my own head against a brick wall. It bounces off them, man. That's the purpose of the "faith" thing that they're taught. It's the catch-all defence.

You already know this, Bob, don't you. I don't get why you persist. Maybe if your posts here were being read by pastors or priests or rabbis, it might be worthwhile. But as far as I can tell, you're literally just preaching to the converted.

[Ian-T]

Bob I also thought about what you said earlier about me needing to have thicker skin. It occurred to me that if one is really being respectful to the other...then why would the other need thick skin?

[Ian-T]

...... to happen until Ian concedes that you're right, and what are the chances of that?

There ain't no ice cold enough to freeze over hades....lol

[Jim E]

There ain't no ice cold enough to freeze over hades....lol

Figured that, Ian.

Hey, since I'm handing out free advice to Bob, I have to ask, just how many more cheeks do you have left to turn?!

[Ian-T]

Figured that, Ian.

Hey, since I'm handing out free advice to Bob, I have to ask, just how many more cheeks do you have left to turn?!

Lol..I'm used to getting beat down. Growing up it was more physical beatdowns (too many fights) but between that and this...I'd go for the verbal any day. Plus....it kinda helps shape character.

[jet]

Of course - because you are so blind and stupid you don't realise that he's acting on your behalf - as an advocate for all you sinners.

Please confirm you are taking the ----

[Dr. Benway]

Please confirm you are taking the ----

[Bob Sanders]

and make you look like a misfit. People don't give much credence to misfits. So, in the end all you're doing is shaking your fist at the sky....

Credence? That's what you think this thread is about?
Let me ask you... Do you really believe anything will actually come of this thread? Do you really believe that one morning Ian will wake up and say " Oh Gee.... you're right... this is all a fairy tale? Or to the other extreme I will at some point declare that I see the light and God is beautiful??

What this thread is all about is the believers standing there saying God is beautiful and the non believers standing there saying no...and you're silly for believing in it..... and then throwing various rocks at each other because there really isn't much else you can do in a situation like this. Now some don't like throwing big rocks, so they throw little ones. Obviously I like the bigger rocks because they get the job done better. But for those who like the little rocks I would suggest it to be a bit of a fence-sitting proposition. When somebody's nose gets bloodied the people with the little rocks can always stand back and say.... "it wasn't me!"

Now.... there is something that keeps drawing Ian into this rock throwing contest. What it is I have no idea because no one is forcing him into this. He is partaking of his own free will and only he in his heart can answer why he is here. In other words Ian has to have thick skin for his own reasons.... not mine. If Ian's nose gets bloodied then one would have to ask why he was in a rock throwing contest to begin with. Me.... clearly my disgust for this topic keeps drawing me in..... and the size of the rocks I throw seems to be of great interest to those throwing the smaller ones.

Sooo.... what's your excuse? And please don't tell me this is a "learning experience". If you haven't learned after 182 pages of this nonsense... then you will never.

Those are the nut and bolts of this thread. Now you can put chrome on those nuts and bolts if you wish... but it doesn't change their existence.

[Playing]

God is a Hat.

[Bob Sanders]

God is a Hat.

Might as well be.

[Bob Sanders]

Lol..I'm used to getting beat down.

And maybe that's why your here. You and your heart need to discuss that one.

[HueyNRolf]

And maybe that's why your here. You and your heart need to discuss that one.

That's why YOU'RE here, Bob.
You're on the list, that's why you're getting corrected.

[Bob Sanders]

I was going to ask you "what does having "respect for your words as a person" mean to you?". But I think a more difficult question would be....what would YOU (Bob) consider as being "disrespectful" for "my words as a person?"

Let me ask you ian... in the 182 pages of this, have I ever called YOU DIRECTLY an assh*le or something similar? I have attacked your ideas... never YOU. Have I ever attacked your God with anymore disgust than I have Allah? I think they're both equally stupid. Have I ever treated you or ithinker any differently? I don't know either one of you well enough for that.
This conversation is about people's ideas and views... not people. You can separate the two in your mind can you not?

A cult does not create itself. .

A cult is a group not one and it stands for ideas that were forced not learned.

[Bob Sanders]

That's why YOU'RE here, Bob.
You're on the list, that's why you're getting corrected.

I've already discussed why i believe I'm here, but you're free to believe differently if you wish. It's not like I have ever put much weight into your words