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Thread: Religious Debate

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    Legend Ian-T's Avatar
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    Since I'm on an iPhone I'll try to keep this brief. But at the time of Adam and eve man needed nothing. Everything he and the world needed was supplied by God. The bible states that God is light and that Jesus is the light of the world. You ask "what is evil"? Evil (darkness) is the absence of light (God). Think about what would happen if the sun stopped shining on the earth...that would cause a chain reaction of things dying off on the earth. What is lacking in nourishment would start towither away and rot....basically DIE. THAT is how "original sin" effected the earth. A slow and sure death. The bible says "the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

    Sin not only affected our spiritual well being but everything in the natural world. The devil lied to Eve when he contradicted what God told her. God told her that she would die but the devil stated that she wouldn't die but her eyes would be opened up. The fact is they didn't die an instantaneous physical death. But the process of death did start....not only for their bodies but for everything within the known universe. They chose the opposite of Light and instead chose the dark (where there is no nourishment).

    By the way, Lilith was not real. That's a made up story to throw a curve to the Truth. It's no different from those who said Jesus never died but got married to Mary Magdeline and had kids. What a neat and convenient way of thwarting faith.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ian-T View Post
    Since I'm on an iPhone I'll try to keep this brief. But at the time of Adam and eve man needed nothing. Everything he and the world needed was supplied by God. The bible states that God is light and that Jesus is the light of the world. You ask "what is evil"? Evil (darkness) is the absence of light (God). Think about what would happen if the sun stopped shining on the earth...that would cause a chain reaction of things dying off on the earth. What is lacking in nourishment would start towither away and rot....basically DIE. THAT is how "original sin" effected the earth. A slow and sure death. The bible says "the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

    Sin not only affected our spiritual well being but everything in the natural world. The devil lied to Eve when he contradicted what God told her. God told her that she would die but the devil stated that she wouldn't die but her eyes would be opened up. The fact is they didn't die an instantaneous physical death. But the process of death did start....not only for their bodies but for everything within the known universe. They chose the opposite of Light and instead chose the dark (where there is no nourishment).

    By the way, Lilith was not real. That's a made up story to throw a curve to the Truth. It's no different from those who said Jesus never died but got married to Mary Magdeline and had kids. What a neat and convenient way of thwarting faith.
    I feel that still doesn't answer the question "Who created the penalties of original sin?" Was it God, the Devil, or just karma?

    Two followup questions:

    1) Why would anyone who believes that want to have children? "A slow and sure death" is all they have to look forward to.

    2) Were Adam and Eve human? If they felt no pain, needed no food, did not eat or defecate, they kind of don't match the description of life. If they weren't human, what were they?

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    Perpetually angry! Bob Sanders's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wildside50 View Post
    I feel that still doesn't answer the question "Who created the penalties of original sin?" Was it God, the Devil, or just karma?

    Two followup questions:

    1) Why would anyone who believes that want to have children? "A slow and sure death" is all they have to look forward to.

    2) Were Adam and Eve human? If they felt no pain, needed no food, did not eat or defecate, they kind of don't match the description of life. If they weren't human, what were they?
    Those are logical questions... which is why you will not receive adequate answers. I have come to the conclusion that religious people just don't think as deeply as that. They simply look at the bible and recite some line that comes the closest to what is being asked. Anything that can not be answered through the bible..... simply is not asked or pondered.

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    Quote Originally Posted by wildside50 View Post
    I feel that still doesn't answer the question "Who created the penalties of original sin?" Was it God, the Devil, or just karma?
    We did in a way. Think about it in the context of my allegory above... When a mother uses crack while pregnant and the child comes out irreversably affected by her actions....what was the penalty? Sickness, disease, deformity, (in many cases still birth) etc., etc. There is a consequence for every action. If you stick your hand in fire....you will get burned,,,,no ifs, ands, or buts about it.

    You ask as if God did this and is out to punish us. Not so. He has no desire to punish us. But just like how you can understand that there are natural laws (stick hand in fire and get burned) then you must understand that there are spiritual laws. If you can't at least see that...then no matter how I answer this particular question you will never be satisfied. So maybe it's time to move on to something else. Or we will be going around in a constant circle...which would be insanity.




    1) Why would anyone who believes that want to have children? "A slow and sure death" is all they have to look forward to.
    Because children are hope. That's how I look at it.

    Yes.....it's a slow and sure "physical" death for everyone that occupys this tent. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure that out. You've heard the saying...."we start dying as soon as we are born." That is evident.

    And I'm sorry but you have it all wrong.... People who have faith look forward to more than just a slow and obvious death. We look forward to life and life more abundantly. We are fruitful and we multiply because we have hope.....and hope does not disappoint. It's because of faith....and what is faith???? Faith is the substance of things "hoped" for and the 'evidence" of things unseen. In other words....faith is GOD. So....if you have just a tiny bit of GOD in you (even about the size of a mustard seed)...you can do anything...move mountains (physically, spiritually and mentally)...



    2) Were Adam and Eve human?
    EEEEEYYYYYYYYYYYYYUPPPP!!!!


    If they felt no pain, needed no food, did not eat or defecate, they kind of don't match the description of life. If they weren't human, what were they?
    Um...very funny. But the problem is......they don't match YOUR description of life. I walk by faith and not by sight. So I'm seeing things from a totally different POV than you. But...I have confidence in God knowing that you will have the same understanding one day.
    No one can read the Gospels without feeling the actual presence of Jesus. His personality pulsates in every word. No myth is filled with such life...Albert Einstein

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ian-T View Post
    If you stick your hand in fire....you will get burned
    You mean if you stick your hand in fire, SOMEONE ELSE will get burned. In your analogy the baby takes the brunt of the heat, not the mother.

    I'll say it again... your analogy doesn't work. The RESULT of SOMEONE ELSE'S sin is inflicted upon the innocent.... which makes your God wrong and unfair.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ian-T View Post
    In other words....faith is GOD
    Yes... that explains it...
    What is faith?
    Faith is God.
    What is God?
    God is faith.
    Then what is faith?
    Well I just told you... it's God.
    So what is God?
    Are you deaf.. I already said it's faith.
    So, what is faith?
    ........

    Ian... I have faith in many things, and I don't believe in God so God and faith really don't have a lot to do with each other.

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    Get with the program, Bob. Once you figure it out, you'll be so good at it
    The Korova milkbar sold milk-plus, milk plus vellocet or synthemesc or drencrom, which is what we were drinking. This would sharpen you up and make you ready for a bit of the old ultra-violence.

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    Infallible (& formerly known as Krute) Jim E's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Erik Bien View Post
    "You know what would really make this room feel more homey? A little dead, naked Jew, nailed to a piece of wood!"


    With sincere apologies to the Christians here, that IS funny!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ian-T View Post
    We did in a way. Think about it in the context of my allegory above... When a mother uses crack while pregnant and the child comes out irreversably affected by her actions....what was the penalty? Sickness, disease, deformity, (in many cases still birth) etc., etc. There is a consequence for every action. If you stick your hand in fire....you will get burned,,,,no ifs, ands, or buts about it.

    You ask as if God did this and is out to punish us. Not so. He has no desire to punish us. But just like how you can understand that there are natural laws (stick hand in fire and get burned) then you must understand that there are spiritual laws. If you can't at least see that...then no matter how I answer this particular question you will never be satisfied. So maybe it's time to move on to something else. Or we will be going around in a constant circle...which would be insanity.
    Okay, if you feel this question just puts us right back around to the begining of the circle, go ahead and ignore it and we'll just leave as an open-ender. But, doesn't God set the spiritual laws? I mean, they don't just exist before he creates them. So in effect, didn't God create the laws of spirituality that lead original sin to taint us all?


    Quote Originally Posted by Ian-T View Post
    Um...very funny. But the problem is......they don't match YOUR description of life. I walk by faith and not by sight. So I'm seeing things from a totally different POV than you. But...I have confidence in God knowing that you will have the same understanding one day.
    So Adam and Eve were completely unlike every human living today, and indeed unlike any life form mankind has ever encountered?

    (I do have to say, if the answer to that is yes, then hey! Humans evolved! Just from a different being than some think.)

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    Perpetually angry! Bob Sanders's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HueyNRolf View Post
    Get with the program, Bob. Once you figure it out, you'll be so good at it
    Yeah really!
    I mean I would suggest that the crack in fact did the actual damage to the child by screwing around with the kid's dna at the time of the development, and this imaginary thing called god really had absolutely nothing to do with it.... but then that's pretty silly. I should be flamed for even THINKING such stupidity!

    I never ceases to amaze me at how far this religion stuff can suck in an other wise intelligent human being! How can ANYBODY with any kind of reasonable IQ even consider such rubbish??? It's like an adult believing in santa claus and the little elves in the north friggin pole.
    Last edited by Bob Sanders; 2010 September 14th at 06:56.

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    Quote Originally Posted by wildside50 View Post
    Okay, if you feel this question just puts us right back around to the begining of the circle
    There really is no sense continuing here.... religious people have made absolutely certain that at all turns into a circle.... and even when that circle is threatened they have invented answer to cover it;

    "The bible is open to interpretation".

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bob Sanders View Post
    ...religious people have made absolutely certain that at all turns into a circle....
    Turning in circles waiting for Hay-suse. They have to be patient, that's why they need faith - there'd be mass suicide if they ever lost faith in the idea that he's coming down a cloudy escalator... one of these millenia. Patience o ye Christians, he's busy in jannah tending to his favourites.

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    Infallible (& formerly known as Krute) Jim E's Avatar
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    Bob, I never thought I'd say this, but you're beginning to make me sympathise with the believers. I mean, it's one thing to have a really strong opinion and to be determined to express yourself to the fullest, but I think your intense proclamations are giving your opponents more reason to want to seek refuge in religion!! Man, you are scarier than any brimstone-and-hellfire preacher!

    Book I'm reading at the moment, by Carl Sagan, is absolutely rock-solid on scepticism. He says much the same thing you say, only he says it with a tad less spittle...

    But the thing is, at one point he takes a step back and admits that it's maybe unfair and downright bad manners to ridicule believers too much, because, as he admits, they're only human beings, and no human being ever feels completely safe in the world. Being human, they need something to make sense of Life, (which persists in being unexplainable despite aeons of philosophising).

    He admits that even sceptics are "guilty" of the same ploy. Scepticism is, for some people, their religion. It's something they can hold on to, and believe in, and trust in, and take comfort from. So, really, no matter how right I think you are in your specific points, I have to admit I think that you, (and I) are making one big fundamental mistake here - we're forgetting that we're arguing with people who, in terms of vulnerability and humanity, are no different than ourselves.

    And even if religion often breaks the rule of Live and Let Live, do you think it's good that its opponents make the same mistake?

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    I don't think Bob will understand this, Krute. Too many long words.
    The Korova milkbar sold milk-plus, milk plus vellocet or synthemesc or drencrom, which is what we were drinking. This would sharpen you up and make you ready for a bit of the old ultra-violence.

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    Quote Originally Posted by wildside50 View Post
    Okay, if you feel this question just puts us right back around to the begining of the circle, go ahead and ignore it and we'll just leave as an open-ender.
    ??Huh?? Who's ignoring? What I said in a nutshell is..."you keep asking the same questions and I'll keep giving the same answers"....at some point someone has to decide on moving on. Einstein's quote has been used in this thread many times...but to sum his quote he says "insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result." Well...I'm not the one asking the same questions over and over....but if you insist...


    But, doesn't God set the spiritual laws? I mean, they don't just exist before he creates them. So in effect, didn't God create the laws of spirituality that lead original sin to taint us all?
    Of course. Just like a loving parent who instruct's his or her child not to play with fire or they will get burned. There are consequences. It's not as if the parent wants thier child to get hurt.... they instruct their children because they love them.

    But yes....these laws existed BEFORE he created us. It's because of Who He is...what He's made up of. He always was, is and will be....so these spiritual laws always was, is and will be. Just like we have observable laws of physics in the natural universe...there are also spiritual laws in the supernatural. Whether you believe in the supernatural or not my answer should be sufficient enough for you to understand where I'm coming from.



    So Adam and Eve were completely unlike every human living today, and indeed unlike any life form mankind has ever encountered?
    Let me try and give you an idea..... Adam and Eve were just like....Jesus Christ up until their fall from grace. If you think Jesus Christ was "unlike every human living today".....then you have your answer.

    Remember.....Jesus Christ is referred to as the second Adam. Only, He accomplished what the original Adam couldn't (or didn't).

    (I do have to say, if the answer to that is yes, then hey! Humans evolved! Just from a different being than some think.)
    I'm not totally againts some form of evolution. But not in the same way as you do. The HUGE difference here is I believe in the supernatural...and that same evolution in the natural world happened in the spiritual...but in the reverse (instead of being upgraded we basically downgraded). This is why we need to be "restored" back to where we came from.
    Last edited by Ian-T; 2010 September 14th at 15:49.
    No one can read the Gospels without feeling the actual presence of Jesus. His personality pulsates in every word. No myth is filled with such life...Albert Einstein

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    Quote Originally Posted by Krute View Post
    Bob, I never thought I'd say this, but you're beginning to make me sympathise with the believers. I mean, it's one thing to have a really strong opinion and to be determined to express yourself to the fullest, but I think your intense proclamations are giving your opponents more reason to want to seek refuge in religion!! Man, you are scarier than any brimstone-and-hellfire preacher!

    Book I'm reading at the moment, by Carl Sagan, is absolutely rock-solid on scepticism. He says much the same thing you say, only he says it with a tad less spittle...

    But the thing is, at one point he takes a step back and admits that it's maybe unfair and downright bad manners to ridicule believers too much, because, as he admits, they're only human beings, and no human being ever feels completely safe in the world. Being human, they need something to make sense of Life, (which persists in being unexplainable despite aeons of philosophising).

    He admits that even sceptics are "guilty" of the same ploy. Scepticism is, for some people, their religion. It's something they can hold on to, and believe in, and trust in, and take comfort from. So, really, no matter how right I think you are in your specific points, I have to admit I think that you, (and I) are making one big fundamental mistake here - we're forgetting that we're arguing with people who, in terms of vulnerability and humanity, are no different than ourselves.

    And even if religion often breaks the rule of Live and Let Live, do you think it's good that its opponents make the same mistake?
    Wow. Blew me away...

    Some of us have mentioned the very same thing several times over in this thread. I've often said that though we are on different ends of the spectrum (in terms of belief).... we are a lot alike.
    No one can read the Gospels without feeling the actual presence of Jesus. His personality pulsates in every word. No myth is filled with such life...Albert Einstein

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ian-T View Post
    ??Huh?? Who's ignoring? What I said in a nutshell is..."you keep asking the same questions and I'll keep giving the same answers"....at some point someone has to decide on moving on. Einstein's quote has been used in this thread many times...but to sum his quote he says "insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result." Well...I'm not the one asking the same questions over and over....but if you insist...
    I think you misunderstood me. I wasn't saying "Go ahead jerk, ignore me!" I was saying "If you feel this is the same question I have already asked, and that frustrates you, feel free to just ignore it because you dont' feel it will help the discussion and it is just me who isn't understanding". You'll have to just trust me, Ian, I am honestly trying to learn and understand. I'm not trying to tell you that you are wrong, or convince you my way is right. Most of your view is pretty new to me.

    If you honestly feel I'm asking the same question, please feel free to point it out to me in quote. I look back and I see new questions that I form based on the new information you offer. But I could be wrong.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ian-T View Post
    I'm not totally againts some form of evolution. But not in the same way as you do. The HUGE difference here is I believe in the supernatural...and that same evolution in the natural world happened in the spiritual...but in the reverse (instead of being upgraded we basically downgraded). This is why we need to be "restored" back to where we came from.
    My friend also believes in micro evolution but not macro. This of course isn't a guarantee, but doesn't it seem like if some things evolve a little over time, wouldn't a million billion littles eventually add up to a large?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ian-T View Post
    Wow. Blew me away...

    Some of us have mentioned the very same thing several times over in this thread. I've often said that though we are on different ends of the spectrum (in terms of belief).... we are a lot alike.
    HEY! I was trying to say that too with my faith in science hullabaloo! :-P

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    Infallible (& formerly known as Krute) Jim E's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HueyNRolf View Post
    I don't think Bob will understand this, Krute. Too many long words.
    Haha, we'll see, Huey. Looks like he hasn't read it yet.

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    Quote Originally Posted by wildside50 View Post
    If you honestly feel I'm asking the same question, please feel free to point it out to me in quote. I look back and I see new questions that I form based on the new information you offer. But I could be wrong.
    Honestly...I did answer as if it was just you...but really I meant the same kinds of questions have been asked over and over from others. Felt like I was going in circles. But this thread is looooonngg!! Didn't mean to pick on you. Pray for me.... Oops....my bad!!!
    No one can read the Gospels without feeling the actual presence of Jesus. His personality pulsates in every word. No myth is filled with such life...Albert Einstein

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    Quote Originally Posted by wildside50 View Post
    My friend also believes in micro evolution but not macro. This of course isn't a guarantee, but doesn't it seem like if some things evolve a little over time, wouldn't a million billion littles eventually add up to a large?
    Very good question. But the problem for me here is...I don't believe the world (or universe) is as old as we think.
    No one can read the Gospels without feeling the actual presence of Jesus. His personality pulsates in every word. No myth is filled with such life...Albert Einstein

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ian-T View Post
    Honestly...I did answer as if it was just you...but really I meant the same kinds of questions have been asked over and over from others. Felt like I was going in circles. But this thread is looooonngg!! Didn't mean to pick on you. Pray for me.... Oops....my bad!!!
    Hey, its only 4,523 posts. He should start from the beginning!

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    The two most powerful forces in the world are love and selfishness.
    No one can read the Gospels without feeling the actual presence of Jesus. His personality pulsates in every word. No myth is filled with such life...Albert Einstein

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    Quote Originally Posted by Krute View Post
    Haha, we'll see, Huey. Looks like he hasn't read it yet.
    Why would you assume I haven't looked at it yet??? Hue is just being..... Hue. I don't hold against him... he really can't help himself.

    Your words are good Krute and I respect them. I also hold a high regard for Ian as a person and respect both his conviction and resolve.

    Religion on the other hand is a different ballgame. I'm not just a mere disbeliever, but rather a hater of it. I absolutely detest it and my blood boils anytime some one speaks of it. I think it is a cruel, sick, twisted cult that does nothing but drive unnecessary wedges into an already complicated world and separates people even further than they would be without it.... and I have kids who have to grow up amongst this absolute brainwashing stupidity. I can not teach my children this hatred because it would not be fair to them.... but what I can do is teach them to be strong so that they never have to turn to such world-wrecking lies and fairy tales..... and I can only hope that they learn on their own that an Islam God is just as stupid as a Christian God.... and hanging around a Pastor who wants to start world war 3 by burning a koran, is not a smart thing to do... and the bigoted words of Jimmy Swaggart make him look really dumb instead of smart...and Tammy Faye Baker...who wears so much make-up on the outside to try and hide the ugly emptiness inside... and that the Catholic church is nothing more really than a den of thieves while they pass the silver tray on Sunday mornings and take even more from the poor......

    So yes Krute... I say to you if you really wish to "sympathise with the believers"..... then God please help you.

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