Religious Debate

[CWildenradt]

Is there anything I said that wasn't true?

Technically no. I agree, the human mind is not perfect in the sense of never making what people would consider to be mistakes. And yes, I agree that most people are "good" in the sense of the terms we're using. I'll go a step further and say that everyone at the core is inherently good. And yes, according to Christianity, your rules of Heaven entry are correct.

I don't see that it's self-imposed suffering. I don't suffer.

The suffering is in the belief that you're this flawed sinner that needs salvation. The suffering is in the belief that you're bad because you've cheated or lied before in your life. The harsh judgment and the belief that you can't go this life on your own. The fear that if you don't have faith in God, you're damned to Hell. That's not liberation. It's the opposite. Of course, you're used to it because you've been in it long enough and haven't really experienced life outside the concepts. It's normal to you, so it doesn't seem like suffering. It's akin to learned helplessness.

[Duke]

My thought has always been that if you are happy and optimistic, then religion is a burden of extra duties, obligations and restrictions that aren't necessary.

However, if you have guilt, or life and death stress, then the reassurance through religion that you aren't alone, and you have someone to rely upon can help you from being overwhelmed.

Although we joked about the religious conversion rates when working in the prisons, I do think a lot of the guys got something useful out it. (Not the sociopaths though.)

Likewise a lot of the guys in military operations, death row, etc. that pray no matter what their lives were before. As they say, there are no atheists in a fox hole, and there's an awful lot of truth to that. As I said, I'm an agnostic, but there are times that I prayed, really long and really hard.

I'll tell you a great truth, when your life is on the line it doesn't matter what race, sexual orientation or religion your buddies are. The us against them is; those you can trust to back you up and those you can't.

D@mn, now I'm going to have bad memories all night...

[Halsu]

From the things we've gone through (and continue to go through) no bit of science can explain. These things can't just be in my head...they are real. This is one of the multitude of reasons why I know He (the Holy Spirit) is real.

It's either that or she needs to have me Baker Acted. LOL

Well, i'd be wary of men in white coats if i were you ;-)


...but seriously, i'm pretty sure it's all in your heads.

As our daytime experiences affect our dreams, so sometimes dreams may seem to have kinda valid and specific predictions - nothing particularly magical there. People are also extremely good at finding connections even when there are none. Dreams that look like predictions in hindsight fall in this category: they're connected to real events if they seem to fit, even loosely - and the dreams that "do not come true" are simply discarded. When you say you "interpret" your wife's dreams, this sounds very likely to be the case.

[Halsu]

As they say, there are no atheists in a fox hole, and there's an awful lot of truth to that.

While i understand and fully accept your point that at times of extreme distress we cling to every possible straw, i can't help but post this link to atheists discussing life in the foxholes:

http://richarddawkins.net/forum/viewforum.php?f=11

[shponglization]

...but seriously, i'm pretty sure it's all in your heads.

As our daytime experiences affect our dreams, so sometimes dreams may seem to have kinda valid and specific predictions - nothing particularly magical there. People are also extremely good at finding connections even when there are none. Dreams that look like predictions in hindsight fall in this category: they're connected to real events if they seem to fit, even loosely - and the dreams that "do not come true" are simply discarded. When you say you "interpret" your wife's dreams, this sounds very likely to be the case.

Hear the gods sing! Listen to what they say.

[lordtangent]

Um, right. I said that everything in this physical world came from something. Surely God is outside of that world.

How is god somehow exempt from all observable laws of nature? (Simply asserting it is above those laws is not an answer). Why is a supernatural force required to drive the natural laws of "everything"?

And, btw, I don't actually agree that everything in this world "came from something" because, as far as we can tell, that isn't technically true. More precisely, everything came from a singularity which occludes what is behind it because what we currently know about physics does not allow us to see past it. In that respect, everything actually came from "nothing". Meaning, the universe as we know it didn't exist at some point. Then it did. That however, still does not imply anything super natural. It's just what happened. ( Much the way the sun rises every morning based on natural law. ) I was simply using your own logic against you.

What conditions "caused" the big bang to occur? The honest answer would be "we don't know yet". Anyone who tells you otherwise is selling something. If it ever IS fully understood it will be as a result of physics and cosmology. Simply saying "a god did it" is a cop out, since it answers nothing.

Singularities don't imply anything supernatural. They are just another natural phenomena of our universe. At best you can say "we don't know what is behind a singularity", which is basically what I believe about "supernatural" stuff. We can't know there is anything supernatural. But that in no way implies the two are connected. (There are a lot of things we don't know, but it is also pretty clear none of them have anything to do with god)

And, I would like to add a concept that is something that's was one of the corner stones of my "deist" beliefs (before I dropped any concerns about god all together). If a supernatural entity DID interact with a natural world, it would not longer be "supernatural" because then its actions could easily be measured in the physical world. As a result, there can be no "invisible hand" that is capable of actually doing anything in our world. All actions in this world have a physical signature of some kind. The bigger the manipulation in this world, the more obvious the signature would be. So far we have yet to observe that "magic hand" in action. Yes, I know, many people have a "witness" of it, but it can never be confirmed by a third party. So, these individual accounts are only anecdotal evidence, which is basically worthless in a statistical sense.

There are all kinds of metaphysical cops-outs you could make at this point, so I'll give you mine first. One of the things I came to realize is that since a supernatural god CAN'T have interaction with this world, the supernatural god isn't really of any use to us. We might as well just ignore it, even if it does "exist".

Now, I realize a lot of people get comfort from prayer. But if you are praying to an entity that can't do anything, you are just wasting effort. Why not just apply YOUR effort directly to the problem? My dad used to always say "Pray like everything depends on god and work like everything depends on you." I was like "What? If I'm going to do all the work anyway, I might as well just leave god out of it!" (And that was when I still simply believed "god had better things to worry about")

I've noticed a lot of religious people use god as an excuse for their shortcomings, because in the end, they never feel truly accountable. "god will help me!" But if they just took full accountability and applied the same effort they do to themselves as they do praying to an aloof (most likely imaginary) sky dad, they would probably make a lot better progress.

[Ian-T]

How is god somehow exempt from all observable laws of nature? (Simply asserting it is above those laws is not an answer). Why is a supernatural force required to drive the natural laws of "everything"?

Yes He's exempt (at least that's what i believe). You can't observe a spirit or something that is invisible.

Because it takes a supernatural force to create the natural. Think of it from a hierarchical point of view. First there’s the supernatural then there’s the natural.


...you asked

[mrblofish]

Think of it from a hierarchical point of view. First there’s the supernatural then there’s the natural.


...you asked

ok so first there is the Super Human...then the Human?????

i guess if u believe in evolution its the other way around...

first u human then you evolve into Super Human????

im just asking

[Ian-T]

If it ever IS fully understood it will be as a result of physics and cosmology. Simply saying "a god did it" is a cop out, since it answers nothing.
.

Sure it does. It answers the "Who" but not the "HOW." but first one has to come to terms with who He is.

[Ian-T]

ok so first there is the Super Human...then the Human?????

i guess if u believe in evolution its the other way around...

first u human then you evolve into Super Human????

im just asking

Human? No, that's not what I said. A "Spirit" is considered supernatural whereas humans (the earth, the universe etc.) is a part of the natural. The difference is like how Light is to Darkness.

[Ian-T]

But if you really want to know the truth....Superman is real. And yes, He was the first.

[shponglization]

Why are monotheists so obsessed with the concept of God being a transcendental force outside of this world? Personally I believe that God is everything that exists, even us. Hence there's no difference between soul and matter.

[Duke]

While i understand and fully accept your point that at times of extreme distress we cling to every possible straw, i can't help but post this link to atheists discussing life in the foxholes:

http://richarddawkins.net/forum/viewforum.php?f=11

I read some of their discussions that just because you are scared it doesn't make you call out to someone that's not there. They say an atheist wouldn't call out for god. I'm afraid that's just wrong.

In enough pain and fear many men call out for their mother or wife, even when they know they aren't there. It's no different when they start talking to God.

When pain, fear and stress are high enough your brain goes everywhere looking for any alternatives no matter how unrealistic. If it didn't happen on individual occasions the stress wasn't bad enough or those individuals are built differently.

[lordtangent]

Yes He's exempt (at least that's what i believe). You can't observe a spirit or something that is invisible.

Because it takes a supernatural force to create the natural. Think of it from a hierarchical point of view. First there’s the supernatural then there’s the natural.
...you asked

Why? That is just your opinion and there is no evidence to support it.

The belief that there is "no one out there" is not new at all and is quite common in the mystical branches of practically every religion. Many advanced practitioners of said religions practice that "flavor". (though obviously in private, depending on the tradition they are from)

The concept of god creating everything from nothing and separate from itself did not even enter christian canon until like 340 AD, during the Council of Nicaea. It is a relatively new idea. ( And even still, certain sects believed more in the "Emanation" theory, which would imply that we are literally part of god.)

In addition, there are spiritual practices that simply don't acknowledge gods / creator gods at all, like buddhism. Buddhism is substantially older than christianity. The idea of a supreme creator god is the upstart idea that needs to prove itself and not the reverse.

It isn't science that challenges the existence of a supreme god, it's the fact that he "didn't exist" in the first place! The idea of this supreme god is the new idea that needs to be proven, and not the reverse. You can say that the supreme god idea now has a "track record", but that really isn't true. History doesn't support the notion. And no matter how much you wave around the metaphysical possibility of its existence, there still is no way to know if the creator god exists, because as I stated, any action it took in this world would immediately reveal it and that has never happened in it's short 1500-3000 year life span (depending on how you want to calculate it's age)

[Ian-T]

LOL...how come when folks want to dispute God's existence the argument always start out with Christianity and then they come the claim that other religions are older than Christianity? Of course, there are many religions that are older than Christianity....but who is making claim that God started with Christianity? Christianity centers on the "person" of Jesus Christ...not a religion. But you have to go back much further than Christianity itself and when you do you'll see that the Judaic religion came well before that. Go back to Abraham and you will see how old that religion is. If one really want to measurebate...then one should use that understanding to compare with religions like Hinduism etc. But even then...it doesn't really matter to me. I'm not using mathematics, or science etc., to validate His existence or validate when "talk" of His existence started. That would be falling into the same trap as most non-believers.

[Ian-T]

I guess if you want to look at all of this from a worldly perspective and lump the "mono-theistic" god view in one category then you could probably call them all "Abrahamic Religions" (Christianity, Judaism, Islamic etc.).

[Ian-T]

The concept of god creating everything from nothing and separate from itself did not even enter christian canon until like 340 AD, during the Council of Nicaea. It is a relatively new idea. ( And even still, certain sects believed more in the "Emanation" theory, which would imply that we are literally part of god.)

This is inaccurate. Sure the bible itself was Canonized in that year but not the so called concept of God. You have to go back thousands of years even from before the Torah (from the Hebrew bible) which is basically the first five books of the same bible you are talking about (Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers and Deuteronomy). We are introduced to the mono-theistic God in the book of Genesis....this predates the Council of Nicaea by thousands of years.

[iThinkergoiMac]

The concept of god creating everything from nothing and separate from itself did not even enter christian canon until like 340 AD, during the Council of Nicaea. It is a relatively new idea. ( And even still, certain sects believed more in the "Emanation" theory, which would imply that we are literally part of god.)

Ian basically nailed it in his response to this. The Torah records the Biblical account of creation, and the books that make up the Torah were written several thousand years before Christ. While we don't know who wrote them, many believe it was Moses. Whether or not it was Moses who wrote them, they were written during that general period of time.

Technically, you could say nothing entered the Christian Canon before the Council of Nicea, since there was no Canon until then.

[colonelpanic]

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rEtfdzNAE74&feature=channel_page"]YouTube - Children of a stupid god[/ame]

[shponglization]

LOL...how come when folks want to dispute God's existence the argument always start out with Christianity and then they come the claim that other religions are older than Christianity? Of course, there are many religions that are older than Christianity....but who is making claim that God started with Christianity? Christianity centers on the "person" of Jesus Christ...not a religion. But you have to go back much further than Christianity itself and when you do you'll see that the Judaic religion came well before that. Go back to Abraham and you will see how old that religion is. If one really want to measurebate...then one should use that understanding to compare with religions like Hinduism etc. But even then...it doesn't really matter to me. I'm not using mathematics, or science etc., to validate His existence or validate when "talk" of His existence started. That would be falling into the same trap as most non-believers.

Yup, the jews were the ones who came up with this absurd idea of a supreme God which we were all inferior to. They even went as far as to say that God only belonged to them... sigh. God is not an Israelite!

[cornreaper]

YouTube - Children of a stupid god

Oh, and the usage of the term "cowardly muppets" in a rant has made my young day.

[Ian-T]

Yup, the jews were the ones who came up with this absurd idea of a supreme God which we were all inferior to. They even went as far as to say that God only belonged to them... sigh. God is not an Israelite!

Hmmmm...well...people seem to forget that God's promise was to the house of Israel (Hebrews). NOT just the Jews. There were twelve tribes in the house of Israel. Out of the twelve tribes the house of Judah and some of Benjamin are who we know today as the Jews (or keepers of the book). But the fact is (as I've mentioned before much earlier in this thread) all Jews might be Israelite but not all Israelite are Jews. You have to consider those of the lost tribes who make up a large portion of peoples we see spread out in the world today. I've read recently that even in China there is a small population of people that belong to the lost tribes. They even keep the same traditions in regard to religion. It's amazing to me because throughout history a large portion of the world at some point always hated and despised Jews...yet among the haters I believe are those who are brothers to the Jews (house of Judah).

[Ian-T]

In other words if your Irish and you despise the Jews...look way back in your history and you'll be very surprised. If you are a white person that more than likely descended from the Anglo Saxons...then you are a brother to the Jews. If you are a black person who's ancestry comes mainly from Ethiopia...might as well stop hating your Jewish brothers. If you are descended from anywhere in the British Isles ....well...the same for you (where do you think the monarchy came from). Spain...same thing... This list can go on and on throughout every corner of the word....but the fact is...all of your descendants come from the house of Israel.

It all just boils down to "sibling rivalry"...now aint that something???

[cornreaper]

LMAO, somebody just sent me this. Couldn't think of a more appropriate place to share it!

God's Facebook Profile

[iThinkergoiMac]

LMAO, somebody just sent me this. Couldn't think of a more appropriate place to share it!

God's Facebook Profile

Wow... awesome. I love it!