Religious Debate

[Halsu]

Who the hell are we in this day of age to insult all of humanity before our time? Technology DOES NOT make you smarter. People several hundred years ago were more intelligent and creative than they are today.

Nope, they were not.

I argue that the average intellect of humans has risen a lot in the course of history - due to evolution: both biological and social.

Why? Simply because intellect is a somewhat desirable trait when finding a spouse, and as such it's likely to get passed to children: as a result, each generation is slightly smarter than previous.

As far as social evolution goes, most people back in biblical days were illiterate peasants. Even the brightest minds were uneducated by today's standards.

[Ian-T]

So I guess you believe the accounts in the Bible where it says some people lived to be 700 years old? You consider that as legitimat and scientific proof, and also assume the bible to be a 100% valid and proven geneology since time began?

As a mater of fact I do. I explained why much earlier in this very thread. I think it makes a lot of sense.

Another question... why is incest bad today and why does it cause birth defects, but it was such a great and efficient way to populate the world back in the Bible? Adam and Eve's kids were clearly screwing each other. Wow, talk about kissing cousins

Like I mentioned (many times) I don’t pretend to have the answer to many things. But I have my own theories and the answer to that is…sin. At this point it does not matter what I say after this because you don’t believe in sin. But if you put yourself in a position to try and understand what the bible is saying in regards to sin you would realize that TODAY the world (including the universe) has waxed worse and worse. Think about how cancer attacks the human body. It starts off unnoticeable in many folks. People live a long unassumingly healthy life…that is until evidence of its presence start to show. Sometimes it spreads slowly…sometimes quickly. But the idea is…it spreads and when it does it will eventually show its ugly head. Sickness, disease ect., etc. was not rampant back then like it is today. People die today because of sickness or what some like to call natural causes. But no matter how one wants to describe it there is always some underlying reason why that individual died (due to sickness). If there wasn’t why do we even bother performing autopsies?

I take it you are a "literalist" where you believe everything in the Bible happened EXACLTY as written?

When I was younger..no. but as I get older…I’m really starting to.

You don't believe that there could be a chance that sometimes people use stories to teach a valid concept, even if story isn't based on fact? That couldn't happen in the Bible?

Of course. What do you mean? I can tell you are not well versed in the bible. Please, if you want to bring an argument to this religious discussion that is valid then I urge you to do some reading (especially in the New Testament).

And I also take it you believe there were dinosaurs on the ark, right?

No.

[lordtangent]

You know LT, with all due respect, the more I read you, the more it seems that you are someone who is bitter and lost his way.
...
I understand that a lot of us feel like God has rejected us, abandoned us, forsaken us….so what happens is the easiest solution for some would be to say…”well He doesn’t exist anyways”…and move on with their life. The more you say it….the more you start to believe it. I’ll say this, and I’m sure you will not agree, but like I said to CWilder, “There’s hope for you yet.”

This is the problem with forums. You don't know me at all Ian. And you seem to only be able to see me though the lens of your own narrow belief system. But, while we are trading notes... I see you as someone who is asleep. The more you say about the details of your belief, the more apparent it is to me. Your opinions are straight out of the "play book" of the religion you've been indoctrinated with.

I don't have "bitterness" towards religion, though by this point in my development I do believe it is juvenile and a waste of time. I don't feel I've lost my way. I've FOUND my way. I woke up from my god delusion during a period when I actually had a very GOOD relationship with god. As paradoxical as it might sound (and only in a matter of speaking) god is the one that revealed to me that he did not exist. What I'm saying is that my religious background and the practices I learned there facilitated my ability to explore "big questions" and ultimately throw off religion and my belief in a literal god. It was a difficult path however. But mostly only due to the social factors involved. I don't resent my personal experience with religion since it was part of my path. My brother (who was raised in the same religion but now has more of a Buddhist philosophy) feels the same way. Now that I am free of religion, however, I see it as a total waste of time and I sincerely hope the people still involved with it complete their journey through, and then finally OUT of it, the way I did.

So, no bitterness, no being lost. I'm not crying out to be saved. (Please, DON'T try to "save" me. I really don't want it or need it. The only reason I used that word myself was to have a little fun by turning it around on the meaning typically attached to it when christians say it.)

Remember I mentioned I that while I was in the process of re-inventing my belief system, I also "figured out" the secret to happiness. (And I did it without god) Ten years later it is still working. How many people do you know that are truly happy Ian? Are you happy?

[lordtangent]

It's funny though, with all of our knowledge and understanding we can only manipulate life but can't create it.

"yet" my friend "yet"

Chances are that milestone will be reached in your life time. Start getting used the the idea.

[CWildenradt]

Hmmm... if I didn't cause myself to take those actions, what did?

Do you honestly believe that a person's actions do not reflect the person himself?

You DID cause yourself to take those actions. Does an instance of you cheating define you as a person???? I beat somebody up once when I was 18, does that event define my life? Does it counteract all the good I've done?

A person's actions are simply that. A person's actions. As human beings, we tend to react. If we are in such a state where we can't reason before reacting, then that's usually referred to as a mistake. Do you want to go out and lie, cheat, and steal right now? Are you compelled to do that? Probably not. Just like I'm not compelled to go out and beat somebody up right now. So what does that mean?

I invest large amounts of my time and energy (and many times money) helping people when and where I can, voluntarily. So am I bad or good? I mean, I beat somebody up 12 years ago. So which event defines me?

Your logic here reduces the human mind to an on/off switch and takes judgment to astronomical heights. I really can't see how you can be serious.

[Ian-T]

The FACT is that it is not the nature of man to commit atrocities. Goodness is the nature of man. The "bad" in the world is a result of man's attachments and aversions to the world itself. Piling on belief systems and judgemental concepts doesn't help you experience that liberation, it only frustrates the suffering.

Not true at all. Since I accept your questions above as being rhetorical in nature I'll throw out some myself. you name me one person on the face of this earth that has never done anything bad in their life. Who has not had an evil thought. Who did not do something he/she regrets. How does one reconcile that? Do you just get up one day and say...I'm whole and i have no issues in life...so I'm good. Every last one of us has fell short. With that said we are imperfect. There is no possible way for an imperfect person to perfect "themselves." No way!!

[Ian-T]

"yet" my friend "yet"

Chances are that milestone will be reached in your life time. Start getting used the the idea.

LOL..no chance. Not even Frankenstein himself.

[Snazzy Flapper]

I have no desire to try and be perfect.

[Snazzy Flapper]

um, and you're wrong about creating artificial life. Google the subject. Likewise, scientists have successfully recreated (in a lab) how primorial ooze sprung to life...

Sad to say, but legitimate science doesn't support anything you believe on a religious level.

[CWildenradt]

Not true at all. Since I accept your questions above as being rhetorical in nature I'll throw out some myself. you name me one person on the face of this earth that has never done anything bad in their life. Who has not had an evil thought. Who did not do something he/she regrets. How does one reconcile that? Do you just get up one day and say...I'm whole and i have no issues in life...so I'm good. Every last one of us has fell short. With that said we are imperfect. There is no possible way for an imperfect person to perfect "themselves." No way!!

Practice Advaita and get back with me. The problem with your viewpoint is you've no experience with that which you're arguing against.

You are also convinced that you are the mind. So of course, that is your reality. Sure, the mind is imperfect. Fortunately, the mind is only another object contained within that which we are. It's not WHAT or WHO we are. But again, you won't see that from your chair so I expect you to reject it.

Those who believe that they are the mind are controlled by its tendencies. It makes no difference whether they see that or not.

[lordtangent]

No one looks at a Boeing 747 and thinks it randomly evolved. I don't understand how we can think that we, who are far, far more complex and intricately constructed than a 747, did evolve by random chance.

OK, so god made us because we are too complex to NOT have a creator. That means god must be even MORE complex than us. Following that logic, the even more complex entity (god) would also require a "maker". Who made god? Another god? That solves nothing.

Looking at it from the other side: If god "just is" and doesn't NEED to be "made" than why could not the universe also "just be" and also not require a creator?

So, bringing gods into the equation doesn't seem to solve anything. The "law of economy" in logic precludes a supernatural entity from being favored in this argument even if you WERE temped to equate the creation of the universe with god in some way.

[CWildenradt]

It's funny though, with all of our knowledge and understanding we can only manipulate life but can't create it.

Call me crazy, but I'm pretty confident that if I go have sex with an ovulating woman right now, we'll create life. Pretty easy to do in fact.

[Ian-T]

This is the problem with forums. You don't know me at all Ian. And you seem to only be able to see me though the lens of your own narrow belief system. But, while we are trading notes... I see you as someone who is asleep. The more you say about the details of your belief, the more apparent it is to me. Your opinions are straight out of the "play book" of the religion you've been indoctrinated with.

This is exactly the reason why i said what I said. I've been called this and that from just about everyone who typed a statement in this thread. Some of it was in general terms but hey let's face it, those statements are supposed to reflect me. Of course I don't know you but that does not stop folks from lumping me into the "Can't think for himself", "Shallow Minded", "Delusional" (I can go on and on) category.

Remember I mentioned I that while I was in the process of re-inventing my belief system, I also "figured out" the secret to happiness. (And I did it without god) Ten years later it is still working. How many people do you know that are truly happy Ian? Are you happy?

I honestly had to pause there when you asked. But yes, I am. But my happiness would be totally different from the next person and in many cases most folks who say they are happy are probably delusional. There are a few books in the Old Testament that anyone Christian or not could read. The books by King Solomon (Proverbs and Ecclesiastes) are a good example of what I’m talking about.

[mrblofish]

Every last one of us has fell short. With that said we are imperfect. There is no possible way for an imperfect person to perfect "themselves." No way!!

ok so I guess at this point I will interject a question....

"how does a PERFECT "GOD" create "imperfect" anything....??? including imperfect humans...???

PERFECTION is THAT PERFECTION.....everything after that is PERFECT....

imo... there is no possible way for a perfect anything to create imperfection

[Ian-T]

Call me crazy, but I'm pretty confident that if I go have sex with an ovulating woman right now, we'll create life. Pretty easy to do in fact.

LOL... you know exactly what I'm talking about. But that was pretty funny.

[blondandfun]

Nope, they were not.

I argue that the average intellect of humans has risen a lot in the course of history - due to evolution: both biological and social.

Why? Simply because intellect is a somewhat desirable trait when finding a spouse, and as such it's likely to get passed to children: as a result, each generation is slightly smarter than previous.

As far as social evolution goes, most people back in biblical days were illiterate peasants. Even the brightest minds were uneducated by today's standards.

You are wrong on so many levels they should make you an everyday subject in school: "Halsu's falsities". People are as dumb as bricks today.

People can't think anymore because of technology. If we didn't have calculators don't you agree we would all be better at doing math in our heads?

Do you actually believe all this scattered BS and lies on the internet is a good thing?

Which is more likely to be truthful and well written, a book from the bookstore or anything off the internet? I say book store.

Technology and technologists bring down society:

you can read all about it here:
http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Indust...and_Its_Future

[Halsu]

I have come through too many things completely unscathed (crashing into a car on my bicycle @ 25+ mph, spinning off the road at 55+ mph, just to name a few) to not believe that Someone is watching over me.

Well, i've survived three potentially lethal car crashes (spinning off the road twice, even hit a truck once). Two of those went without a scratch, one with just a few stitches.

I thank good luck and safety belts, not God ;-)

I remember one time in church where it literally went away for a couple minutes.

Not knowing your case better there's no way to say for sure, but it's pretty common to have momentary hyperacusis, heightened sensitivity to sounds. It's a medical condition, nothing supernatural to it.

Could that have been it?

I don't understand how we can think that we, who are far, far more complex and intricately constructed than a 747, did evolve by random chance.

I really do suggest to do some reading about evolution, using non-religious sources: i'm sure you would find it interesting even if you disagree with the theory. Right now it seems you misunderstand the basic principles of it.

Evolution is not random in the sense you think it is.

The only random thing involved lies in the variation of genetic material in each generation, but the process which decides what survives to the next generation - natural selection - is NOT random, far from it.

And then there's the issue of sex that's been thrown around here. I've personally seen how premarital sex has destroyed relationships that could have been beautiful

Those may have been the exact cases that speak FOR premarital sex: couples that are "a good fit" outside the bedroom aren't as compatible in the sack.

It's a GOOD thing they learned that out before getting married - the marriage would have been bad.

It's not making me doubt my faith, but it has given me cause to ponder, which is always a good thing.

Great to hear - i agree that pondering stuff is way, way better than just blindly swallowing what's told to you.

Excellent!

all I was looking for was something like what I've done: and acknowledgment that, if my premises are true, what I'm saying is logical or accurate.

Well, in addition to thinking that the premise of a god is false, i think every religion i've come across is also internally faulty: the logic is not solid. So it's a double miss as far i can see.

[Ian-T]

ok so I guess at this point I will interject a question....

"how does a PERFECT "GOD" create "imperfect" anything....??? including imperfect humans...???

PERFECTION is THAT PERFECTION.....everything after that is PERFECT....

imo... there is no possible way for a perfect anything to create imperfection

I understand it this way, that we were created in His image out of perfection I also take that to mean having our own free will. it was the introduction of sin into this world that rendered mankind as imperfect beings for which we will be reconciled from today.

[Ian-T]

Looking at it from the other side: If god "just is" and doesn't NEED to be "made" than why could not the universe also "just be" and also not require a creator?
.

Even science knows that there is an end (outer reach) to the universe and that as we speak it (the universe) is expanding. Tell me, what do you think we are expanding into? What it tells me is that the universe had a beginning and most likely will have an end. What was there before its beginning? What will be there after it ends?

[CWildenradt]

LOL... you know exactly what I'm talking about. But that was pretty funny.

Actually, although meant to also serve as a humorous anecdote, I was also serious. We do create life, just not in a laboratory (unless we're getting down in that locale).

Scientists can't turn a steak dinner into a turd either. It's a crude example, but it's true. However, we can by simply eating it. Who cares if it can't be reproduced in a lab without the use of a digestive system? Does that make it "God's turd?"

[Halsu]

You are wrong on so many levels they should make you an everyday subject in school: "Halsu's falsities". People are as dumb as bricks today.

Okay, maybe you should hang with some other folks - my friends are pretty darn smart in my opinion, so it must be about who you know ;-)

People can't think anymore because of technology. If we didn't have calculators don't you agree we would all be better at doing math in our heads?

We're smart enough to be able to AVOID having to do complex math in our heads anymore.

But as an example, if you take an average person from any western civilization, he/she probably knows more about math than ANYONE did back in bible days.

Do you actually believe all this scattered BS and lies on the internet is a good thing?

BS and lies are the price we pay for freedom of expression. As such, i find it an acceptable flipside of the medium.

After all, the internet very likely has MUCH MORE valid information than bull overall. In general, the web is an excellent source of information - you just need to use critical thinking when weeding through the info.

Which is more likely to be truthful and well written, a book from the bookstore or anything off the internet? I say book store.

There's good stuff on the net, and BS in written books. The medium isn't a guarantee in either direction.

Technology and technologists bring down society:

I'm sure you will turn off electricity right away, start hunting for you food, walk all your commute, forbid medical attention when you get sick.

...you know, because technology is bad for you.

[Snazzy Flapper]

Blonde,

You sound like a grumpy old man with a computer that doesn't work.

[Halsu]

"yet" my friend "yet"

Chances are that milestone will be reached in your life time. Start getting used the the idea.

They're very, very close already. My guesstimate is less than ten years to working RNA / DNA.

[Halsu]

As a mater of fact I do. I explained why much earlier in this very thread. I think it makes a lot of sense.

I don't, but you knew that ;-)

TODAY the world (including the universe) has waxed worse and worse.

I happen to think the exact opposite, especially as far as human kind goes. We're doing better than ever before, in more or less all aspects of life.

Sickness, disease ect., etc. was not rampant back then like it is today.

Only because people died young - many diseases that are non-issues today were lethal back then. People didn't have cancer simply because they didn't live long enough to catch it.

The people in bible times lived a shorter and sicker life than we do.

[mrblofish]

I understand it this way, that we were created in His image out of perfection I also take that to mean having our own free will. it was the introduction of sin into this world that rendered mankind as imperfect beings for which we will be reconciled from today.

ok well with thaT said ....I understand PERFECT MEANS just that PERFECT....if there are perfect entities then everything about those entities is PERFECTION.... EVERYTHING...man they take perfect dumps...their exisitance is PERFECT...NO failure...no mistakes...no mis steps...thoughts actions intentions equal PERFECTION....


...who created the devil????and who created sin????

and are each PERFECT..??

don;t wanna get this thread off on a tangent...im just saying