Religious Debate

[Unhollywood]

Ian, honestly I am probably not a good Christian in the sense of going to Church every Sunday and studying the Bible and praying, etc. but on the other hand I try to treat people with respect, do unto others... you know and I try to live my life being a good person. Am I doomed to Hell?

I do question organized religion a lot simply because man is fallable and throughout history we have seen time and again man warping and twisting things to conform to his ideals. It is hard for me to just accept everything and take the Bible as gospal.

I also do not believe that Jesus or God plays an active role in man's day-to-day affairs and therefore not someone who praises Jesus everytime something good happens and I try not to be hypocritical and curse his name when something bad happens. I hate it when someone says "It is God's plan" when talking about someone dying. Is it God's plan when a baby is slaughtered? God's plan when planes fly into the World Trade Centers? God's plan that my parents are both dead and never got to see my son or my marriage? I certainly hope it isn't his plan or test or trial as some folks put it. I prefer to think that everything happens by chance and maybe your judged by how you dealt with it all.

I think Braceface put it the best. Hey, my brain causes me to question things that don't make sense to me. Don't blame me because of the way I am wired.

[CycleWriter]

I also do not believe that Jesus or God plays an active role in man's day-to-day affairs and therefore not someone who praises Jesus everytime something good happens and I try not to be hypocritical and curse his name when something bad happens. I hate it when someone says "It is God's plan" when talking about someone dying. Is it God's plan when a baby is slaughtered? God's plan when planes fly into the World Trade Centers? God's plan that my parents are both dead and never got to see my son or my marriage? I certainly hope it isn't his plan or test or trial as some folks put it. I prefer to think that everything happens by chance and maybe your judged by how you dealt with it all.

This pretty much matches my perspective (despite being raised a Catholic) with the exception that I believe in many of Jesus' teachings without the hubris of his being the son of God. The historical record is clear, Jesus did live, and much of what he taught and said is good reference for daily life. But if there is a God he has done his work and has long since left the workshop. We're on our own as far as spiritual guidance goes.

[Ian-T]

Am I doomed to Hell?

Doomed to hell? Me, I don't believe that at all. Dude, I can't tell you the last time I stepped into my church (yes I can...but it's just for the sake of the discussion ). You're right, "Man is Fallible"...I mean...we suck at making decisions. Honestly I mostly dislike so called televangelists. They are so into themselves and money. The fact is...you are not supposed to accept everything a man tells you... It doesn't matter if the person is Billy Graham himself. You are responsible for "rightly dividing the Word." I like that Braceface quote too...there is nothing wrong with asking questions. That's why God gave us science. Seriously.

My biological father is a good dad. His intent for his children was to be brought up as good God fearing people that he hoped someday would all become doctors, lawyers or engineers (or basically anything we wanted to be) and live a decent life. Part of the plan was for us to go through good schooling (preferably athletic scholarship for the boys) etc. etc. He probably had lots of other ideas for us in between. I'm happy to say that I turned out to be the above. But the reality of it all is that it did not go exactly as "he" planned. Though I grew up in the church my mind was not into it and trust me when I say that I did not live accordingly. I had no intentions of becoming a doctor, lawyer, or engineer. Once I became of age I decided what I wanted for my life...skipped out on the athletic scholarships and joined the military. I eventually dropped out of college (thinking I only wanted to take a year off....big mistake). I went through some things in my life that should have left me dead many times over. Never been in trouble with the law...but with all the folks I used to hang around...I should have been (lol). Anyways...to make a long story short here I am today, an engineer with a beautiful wife and two wonderful kids (girls) toting his bible. When I think about it, though I had many detours in my life, I turned out to be exactly what my father hoped for. He always and still does have nothing but good intentions for me. But it was at the point where I decided to make my own decisions for my life I started to run into my own life experiences...troubles, pitfalls, etc. SO..why am I saying this?

What matters most in your life (I believe) is your intentions. Not what you did, got caught up in, or necessarily who you turned out to be in society. Things happen (or in other words Sugar Honey Ice Tea happens ) even with the best of intentions. Such is the same with the world today. We all have our own minds and make our own decisions. Whether or not "Jesus or God" plays an active role in your day-to-day affairs all depends on you. People (especially some in this forum) think that as a Christian you are not thinking for yourself...as if we don't struggle with decisions like anyone else. That's just wrong. We have to make a conscious decision whether or not we should continue on with life as usual or seek help somewhere else....DAILY. Just because you call yourself a Christian doesn't mean you don't make the same good/bad choice as the atheist next door. I agree with Halsu when he says "The world isn't black and white, it's shades of gray" but in a different "Light."

Also, suffering comes with the territory. Not because it's His will...but because of the way of the world. It's not His intention for us to go through this at all but He allows things to happen because only He knows the outcome. There is no way for folks in the world to understand why...why is this happening. That's what motivates a lot of former believers to be so adamant into thinking there is no god...or God has left the building. Believers as well as non-believers alike think that this is all out of His control....but I don't see it that way. Yes there are starving people, babies dying and a lot of wicked crap going on today....but that is not His fault. We created this mess...and He is only helping us find ways to get out of them. So for those who die innocently, needlessly, etc., their lives served a purpose. And yes...even the devil himself serves a purpose. What that purpose is may differ for each of us along the way but in the end its towards your salvation.

I certainly don't claim to have all the answers (not even a fraction of them) but I do know what "I" believe. But hang on to what you know because you know the old saying, "If you don't stand for something then you'll fall for anything."

[cornreaper]

.....The fact is...you are not supposed to accept everything a man tells you... It doesn't matter if the person is Billy Graham himself...

Ahhhh....and this right here is EXACTLY why I'm a heathen!

[Unhollywood]

Thanks Ian... Your a good Man. But I knew that long before this thread was ever created. One only has to spend some time reading the various threads on this website to gain a basic understanding of who some people are. There is always a touch of niceness about your posts that I have appreciated.

[cornreaper]

Thanks Ian... Your a good Man. But I knew that long before this thread was ever created. One only has to spend some time reading the various threads on this website to gain a basic understanding of who some people are. There is always a touch of niceness about your posts that I have appreciated.

I will second that. There's a bit of an art to providing one's point of view without being hostile or confrontational.

[Ian-T]

....ever seen a black man blush. It's not pretty....

[Luxaltor]

About belief or lack of belief in an afterlife: Some of you may know that I am neither Christian nor Jewish nor Buddist, nor a conventionally religious person of any sort. I am a humanist, which mean, in part, that I have tried to behave decently without any expectation of rewards or punishments after I'm dead. My German-American ancestors, the earliest of whom settled in our Middle West about the time of our Civil War, called themselves "Freethinkers," which is the same sort of thing. My great grandfather Clemens Vonnegut wrote, for example, "If what Jesus said was good, what can it matter whether he was God or not?" I myself have written, "If it weren't for the message of mercy and pity in Jesus' Sermon on the Mount, I wouldn't want to be a human being. I would just as soon be a rattlesnake.

There are plenty of good reasons for fighting," I said, "but no good reason ever to hate without reservation, to imagine that God Almighty Himself hates with you, too. Where's evil? It's that large part of every man that wants to hate without limit, that wants to hate with God on its side.

Take Care of the People, and God Almighty Will Take Care of Himself.

I thought scientists were going to find out exactly how everything worked, and then make it work better. I fully expected that by the time I was twenty-one, some scientist, maybe my brother, would have taken a color photograph of God Almighty — and sold it to Popular Mechanics magazine. Scientific truth was going to make us so happy and comfortable. What actually happened when I was twenty-one was that we dropped scientific truth on Hiroshima.

Quotes by Kurt Vonnegut, probably the smartest man who ever lived.

[DaFireMedic]

I will second that. There's a bit of an art to providing one's point of view without being hostile or confrontational.

I'll third that, pretty red cheeks and all.......

[matt_asimpson]

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=e84_1225843469

this is my very cute proof, that we evolved from apes, this chimp is defo smarter than 50 percent of motorists I encounter, they must still be evolving.

[Dr. Benway]

Their balance is outstanding; they are natural gymnasts, and they have a great sense of humour!

[matt_asimpson]

I love the way its like, right im having another go on that, and yanks it out of the bushes.

they are so like us its scary, planet of the apes is gonna happen!

[Dana Love]

I was listening to the radio today, and the talk show host Glenn Beck was referencing his deeply Christian belief system. This was surprising to me, since I thought Beck was a Mormon.

Did he renounce Mormonism? I'm confused.

[Zacatac]

Isn't Mormonism a branch off of Christianity?

[Erik Bien]

I thought Beck was a Moron.

Fixed.

[1]

LOL

[MithrilFox]

Who's Glenn Beck?

If he is Mormon, a great deal of "mainstream" Christians would consider him "not a Christian." But that's a big religious debate, of course.

I personally distinguish as such:

I say "Christian" for any of a number of denominations, mostly Protestant

I say "Catholic" for the Roman Catholic Church, Orthodox for the Eastern and Greek Orthodox churches.

I say "Mormon" or "Jehova's Witness" specifically for those two, and would never include them in the above titles.

[Braceface]

He considers himself a Christian for what its worth. The guy can give a great monolog.

[benkrebs]

Isn't Mormonism a branch off of Christianity?

kinda like a really long strange branch, that broke off the tree and made its own; slightly different tree.

its like, christianity according to Joseph Smith.

while there are some similarities, there is an entirely different spiritual structure, that contradicts protestant christianity.

[Lunchbox]

He believes global warming is a natural pheonomenon and not caused by human activities.

[1]

Global warming:

Many believe that.
I'm on the fence on that one.

I recall watching TV one fine day:

The first program was a docu on how we're all gonna die because the Earth is warming up; the sea levels will rise,
and Armageddon is near. They had interviews with top scientists, that were VERY believable.
This was like National Geographic Channel or some channel like that.

After it was finished I switched channels.

The second program was a docu on how we're all gonna die because the Earth is entering another Ice Age; the Earth is going to freeze over,
and Armageddon is near. They had interviews with top scientists, that were VERY believable.
This was like Discovery Channel or some channel like that.

Okay.

[previdman]

One thing for certain: We're all gonna' die ...eventually.

[benkrebs]

One thing for certain: We're all gonna' die ...eventually.

you just reminded me of will farrels Harry Carry sketch...
"Whats your favorite planet? Mine's the SUN!"

"actually, the sun is a star, not a planet..."

"Star or planet, when it burns out we're all gunna die!"


and then i reminded myself of the quote from fight club.

"On a long enough time line, the survival rate for everyone drops to zero"

which then reminded me that i have to finish the laundry.

[Lightloch]

I am a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (erroneously referred to as Mormons, though most are familiar with the name). Yes, we are Christians, and I am willing to debate that with anyone, anytime

P.S. We're not nearly as weird as Protestants and some of the media would want you to believe, and no we're not affiliated with polygamist sects.

For basic info about our beliefs go to our investigator website at www.Mormon.org and I think you'll be pleasantly surprised. The official church site is www.LDS.org .

[nobbystylus]

I thought Beck was a Scientologist? ;-) ;-) ;-)