Wobbly image?

[Norbert]

Yeah I could see the same wobblyness in your footage too, Numbox. /=

I think those are the questions that's on everybody's mind right now. If it's caused by the rolling shutter I don't think any firmware upgrade would do the trick?
I don't know if anyone has even contacted Canon about this. I just know that many are holding off their purchase because of this issue.
I don't have the energy myself but I wish someone could contact the techheads at Canon and explain this problem to them as good as possible and ask them if they can fix it or if it's just something you have to live with for that kind of money. I mean, this camera is pretty cheap.

The HV20 is still a killer if you are mostly using a tripod, dolly, etc.

[Numbox]

Does anyone know was it like that with HV10 also?

[Numbox]

So i read on the afore-linked topics that it's the 25p related error, so i went and shot the same thing with 25p turned off, and the wobbling is almost completely gone. Heh.

I'll upload a comparison shot in a little while where you can clearly see a huge difference.

EDIT: Here it is, i think it's clearly visible that in the non 25p (how do you call it, interlaced?) mode there's just normal shakyness and no wobbling, atleast not that much. Even at the end when i'm zooming there's still not as much wobbling as there is in the 25p shot. Your thoughts?
http://files.filefront.com//;7445064;/

And here's the same comparison using split screen.
http://files.filefront.com/7445145

Tell me, am i just convincing myself that it looks better or is it for real?

[Norbert]

I thought about that too so I did a comparison. I still got the same wobbling at 50i though. I'm downloading your clip now.
For the comparison I also shot DV with the HV20 and that did not show any wobbling, so I would say it's some sort of problem with the HDV side of the camera.

EDIT: I had to go earlier so I never finished downloading your clip. I'm downloading both right now so I will be back with comments. All I can say now is that it's all good as long as it looks good to your eye. Even if I had liked what I saw when I shot interlaced I would still return my camera because I bought it mostly because I wanted to be able to shoot 25p.

EDIT #2: I can still see some of that wobbling in your interlaced footage but it doesn't look quite as bad as the 25p footage. But I'd say if it looks all right to you and you are satisfied then it's all good. I just couldn't use mine when it behaved like that.

[Emanuel]

Ron, isn't 25p@1/25 acceptable?

LINK

[Numbox]

Ok, just to sum up, is this wobbly image thing a deffect or is it just the way HV20 behaves?

Emanuel - i'm new to all this, so what does "@1/25" mean? Is that the TV apperture setting on the cam or what? Cause i can't see 1/25 anywhere, just 25.

[Emanuel]

Ok, just to sum up, is this wobbly image thing a deffect or is it just the way HV20 behaves?

Good question. I'd like if Ron/Norbert could go until the end, replacing his unit. Then, we could properly know better if the same shooter would change or not his opinion.

Frankly speaking, I can't know what's the Ron/Norbert's work. But IMHO, there's no competitor to the best cinematic picture out there. HV20 rules. My only concern is to know what's the best solution to solve the rolling shutter issue. PAL or NTSC? Or is there any chance to handle with the rolling shutter?

Emanuel - i'm new to all this, so what does "@1/25" mean? Is that the TV apperture setting on the cam or what? Cause i can't see 1/25 anywhere, just 25.

@ = at 1/25th of a second shutter.

Shutter = http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shutter_(photography)

In the motion picture realm, the shutter is normally a 1/48th one (24 frames per second) or a 1/50th if @25fps (PAL TV). Unless when the idea is to get a more video-like look or motion blur feel (slowing down the shutter). The period of time when the shutter is open and closed for to achieve the number of frames (per second).

I left here a question to Jason (SI/Cineform 2K cinema camera team who have gave a good help to a fair enlightenment in order to know how to understand it):

http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthread...387#post940387

[Norbert]

I'll have to inform you guys that I called just now and told them to not send me a new camera. Stupid, I know, but I didn't want to go through the hassle of sending another camera back. After discussing this problem here and on dvxuser I am fairly confident that this was not just one defective unit.

Emanuel: I tried 1/25 once but I could still see the problem. Even if the problem had gone away at 1/25 I personally don't want to be restricted to 1/25, especially not for moving shots. I want to be able to at least use 1/50, and higher shutter speeds for (moving) action shots.

However, I will follow the development of the HV20 to see if Canon can fix this problem. So far I don't think Canon even knows about these discussions?

[Emanuel]

I'll have to inform you guys that I called just now and told them to not send me a new camera. Stupid, I know, but I didn't want to go through the hassle of sending another camera back.

I guessed from I could read @dvxuser.com.

After discussing this problem here and on dvxuser I am fairly confident that this was not just one defective unit.

Emanuel: I tried 1/25 once but I could still see the problem. Even if the problem had gone away at 1/25 I personally don't want to be restricted to 1/25, especially not for moving shots. I want to be able to at least use 1/50, and higher shutter speeds for (moving) action shots.

I understand. And what about a 24p shooting from a NTSC version? I'm thinking to buy a PAL unit and after if I won't go well maybe I'll be ordering a NTSC version as well. After all, they're just 700 euros more. Of course, if it worths the purchase. That is, if the NTSC behaves differently going with higher shutter speeds for (moving) action shots. Although it seems this is not the best capture device for action or sports shots.

However, I will follow the development of the HV20 to see if Canon can fix this problem. So far I don't think Canon even knows about these discussions?

I doubt. It doesn't seem so. It's a rolling shutter issue from the CMOS technology. But that's the price to pay for the best cinematic picture, IMHO. The point shall be to know how to deal with this rolling shutter issue.

On the Canon's watching, I know other people here (customer of mine) following this soap indeed. But even if they can be Canon customers, they ain't Canon people.

[Mal]

I still think it would be worth seeing if this wobble is present with a properly stabilized movement shot.

Anyone with a HV20 got a nice stabilizer? Merlin? Glidecam 2000?

[Emanuel]

Here's a fine example of a HV20 clip flying with a Merlin:

LINK

For sure, I have no clue on the shooting specs but since I've had some contact with Charles Papert, I can try to send him an email in order to know something on that (+ shutter speed, etc).

[Norbert]

It looks nice and stable on the merlin for sure, but I can still see those little glitches every now and then. I don't know if it's the camera that's causing the glitches or if it's the compression. Don't get me wrong, it looks like you can get useful footage when using it with a merlin but it's not exactly a cheap workaround.
Sometimes I think I am too picky for my own good. :P

[Numbox]

However, I will follow the development of the HV20 to see if Canon can fix this problem. So far I don't think Canon even knows about these discussions?

If they can fix it, do you think they they could fix the ones we have or would it just be for the new ones?

[Numbox]

@ = at 1/25th of a second shutter.

I know what @ means

I don't know where i can choose that 1/25 option, i'm assuming it's that TV thingie in the same menu where i choose cinemode?

[Emanuel]

I know what @ means

I don't know where i can choose that 1/25 option, i'm assuming it's that TV thingie in the same menu where i choose cinemode?

Sorry, I couldn't be useful since I'm not a HV20 user. Try the manual. I hope you go well.

If they can fix it, do you think they they could fix the ones we have or would it just be for the new ones?

Take a look on this Jason's input:

http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showpost.p...4&postcount=69

Maybe he may answer your doubt. It doesn't seem this may be fixed by firmware. It seems it's more a question of...to live or not live with a CMOS sensor.

[Norbert]

Yeah it seems to be the CMOS + rolling shutter that's causing it and if that is indeed true then the people at Canon have some engineering to do if they are going to fix it.

By the way, did you guys read about the new Canon HR10? It will also have a CMOS sensor, so it will be interesting to compare it to the HV20 in terms of stable image.

[Mal]

By the way, did you guys read about the new Canon HR10? It will also have a CMOS sensor, so it will be interesting to compare it to the HV20 in terms of stable image.

Thanks Norbert; I've added its own section.

[Vicne]

As requested by Emanuel in another thread, here's my experience regarding wobbly shooting, FWIW....

I must say that in general I try to be as stable as I can and I avoid walking while shooting, and I never noticed such a "wobble". I think the OIS is designed to compensate for slight uncontrollable trembling of one's hands and not ample movements of a walking body. Just like taking a still photo with a stabilized lens limits blur when shutter speed is low - it isn't generally meant to shoot while you're moving on purpose...

Although, I just tried to reproduce that behavior and can indeed get such an effect when walking fast or running on uneven ground - which means *I am* unstable : http://files.filefront.com//;7464982;;/

The fact is that first, this camcorder is small and light, and that obviously makes steady shooting hard to achieve. Even moving one's finger to reach the photo button almost inevitably makes your shot unsteady, let alone the unreachable "FUNC" button - you need your left hand for that one.
Second, movements are amplified if you're in tele, of course, but even at its widest angle, the HV20 is only a 43mm equivalent, so not that wide in the end.
Finally, you're watching it in HD or full screen on a PC, so all that makes movements even more apparent.

I am not very experienced with other camcorders but I personally don't consider that behavior a camera problem, really. However, I can imagine that other brands or other models are able to better compensate such movements...

Just my opinion, of course...

Vicne

[Melachrino]

First, I must acknowledge the positive contribution of all participants in this thread because they have illuminated a possible major deficiency in the HV20, and perhaps other CMOS cameras, which now bear closer scrutiny.

I have stopped considering buying the canon HV20 for now until the root problem is fixed. After all, for HD one wants the best video possible, not a smeary, blurred or distorted one.

The good news is that the slant or diagonal skew problem is well known in the imaging community, as members have described, and as Mal has shown in his revealing pan test, and I have verified elsewhere.

The better news is that it can be fixed but it requires a re-design of the CMOS shuttering method. It appears that Canon bean counters overpowered the video quality designers and cost reduced the overall sensor circuitry such that there may not be enough circuitry to perform fast, global shuttering as some call it..

CMOS by themselves are not at fault, they just work differently than CCD's. In fact, nowadays CMOS are used for high speed photography and for high speed video monitoring of fast production processes. But, they use fast global shutters and definitely not the infamous rolling shutters.

For a very good, summary discussion and description of the problem and solution you may wish to visit the Dalsa site.

http://www.dalsa.com/shared/content/...ng_English.pdf

Thank you all for the alert and heads up. This site is worth its weight in gold...

[Mal]

Many thanks for the kind words regarding this forum, and its members' contributions (incl. yours! )

I have stopped considering buying the canon HV20 for now until the root problem is fixed.
After all, for HD one wants the best video possible, not a smeary, blurred or distorted one.

See, this is EXACTLY what I suspected would result from this thread. It is a shame that anyone would base their
buying decision on what is being discussed in this thread.
Nevertheless, it is an important discussion, and everyone has their own
opinion on what is important and what isn't.

Let me elaborate though, if I may...

EVERY product - and especially every new product type - has its flaws.
It's an inevitability. And all this is even more true for new video cameras.

Heck: remember the tube cams (Saticon, etc.) from the 80s?
They were revolutionary! But those streaks of light when moving past a bright light source were horrible!

"Remember" MiniDV? And all its terrible red jaggy edges? Well, we still live with that to this day,
and there's been MANY big time movies made with that technology.
To the future: RED ONE, a fantastic camera able to shoot full 4k footage.
But I bet there WILL be problems with it too.

We are in a world where NOTHING is perfect.

Melachrino, the problem about the way the shutter works with these
CMOS cams, is almost a non-event. As with all the examples above,
there's VERY simple ways to work with the technology available to us.
I think the "wobble" is not exaggerated here, but I think the actual way in
which it would manifest itself in every day shooting (and full fledged productions) is miniscule.

The HV20 (and similar cams) is an AMAZING leap forward, and it produces
STUNNING footage. To dismiss it because of this flaw is a real shame,
especially as it will take [probably] years to avoid this altogether....if ever.

Anyway, I will close this sermon () with following statement:

[Mal]

...and in the words of Winston Churchill:

"Many forms of video capture have been tried and will be tried in this world of sin and woe.
No one pretends that the HV20's CMOS is perfect or all wise.
Indeed, it has been said that HV20's HDV is the worst form of video,
except for all the others that have been tried from time to time."

(might not be exactly what he said....but close enough! )

[Emanuel]

it is an important discussion, and everyone has their own
opinion on what is important and what isn't.

Let me elaborate though, if I may...

EVERY product - and especially every new product type - has its flaws.
It's an inevitability. And all this is even more true for new video cameras.

Heck: remember the tube cams (Saticon, etc.) from the 80s?
They were revolutionary! But those streaks of light when moving past a bright light source were horrible!

"Remember" MiniDV? And all its terrible red jaggy edges? Well, we still live with that to this day,
and there's been MANY big time movies made with that technology.
To the future: RED ONE, a fantastic camera able to shoot full 4k footage.
But I bet there WILL be problems with it too.

We are in a world where NOTHING is perfect.

You took the words from my mind. And from several exchange of ideas with other people abroad related to other frontiers. The point is: Is it acceptable or not? Is it suitable or not? Can it handle the task or not?

How can we surpass the difficulties?

@dvxuser.com on HV20 subject, there's the same issue under scrutiny... With me, it has been happening exactly the opposite: such discussion makes me believe whether PAL@1/25 whether NTSC, there's a solution and I can't live without the best cinematic picture I can afford (beyond other aspects such as form factor, handheld convenience, etc).

This talk meant to be an open discussion purpose -- after all, what for we are here?


<PS>

HV20 + RED ONE will shoot my upcoming 128 pages length feature.

[Vicne]

We are in a world where NOTHING is perfect.

Agreed 100%.

My feeling is that today, the HV20 (or HV10 btw) gives the best HD picture for a consumer camcorder.

Yes, wobbly shooting will happen if you really want to walk around while shooting without any precaution... If you want to avoid it, you can either move more slowly and with caution, or, as was said, use a specific stabilizer such as the Merlin. Then you can get smooth shooting with the HV20 for sure (*).

It depends what you intend to shoot of course, but personally, I really prefer to have an OIS compensating my trembling hands and giving super sharp 1080i hand-held image than having it stabilize my body movements while running at the cost of blurry shooting when I stand still. Now is it possible to have both... future will tell.

I admit I may be biased as I have chosen it already, so my advice for anyone hesitating is "try it". If you're disappointed, try another one and see if it's better. Then come back and tell us your feeling :-)

Just my 2 cents...

Kind regards,

Vicne

(*) Don't get me wrong, this shot was made by Charles Papert who's a prefessional camera operator. He also put the wide angle adapter (which reduces the effect of movements) and DM50 mic on to get more ballast, as explained in this thread. And the Merlin isn't cheap as was mentioned before...

[bitty]

Yes the HV20 isn't perfect, it has its weaknesses
Yes its classified as a consumer grade product
Yes its performance in low light isn't as good as high end cameras costing $8K+

and YES its image quality in well lit scenes that probably constitute 95% of recording situations, is damn amazing for something so 'consumer' oriented and priced..

It is one of the best HDV cameras currently on the market within its price range and gives us progressive capture that only recently would have been out of the reach of many of us financially.

I could babble on and on and write a thesis, but to be short, if one bought a HV20 because of its professional imaging capabilities then one should be using the camera like a professional.. To demonstrate my point watch any good movie and you'll notice they use zoom sparingly, they don't move around the camera too much, they have multiple angles of the same scene, use steady cams etc etc -- you get my point. Now I know most of us are not shooting movies, but the techniques and methods can be applied where possible to give our captured video a polished professional look.

I think most of us should be grateful that Canon engineers have been able to create for us such a fantastic product, that no doubt sets a new standard for consumer cameras and helps spur on development and competition to create even better ones.

In the end, we as consumers, benefit by being able to get our hands on these new cameras that allow us to capture like never before, the wonder, beauty and diversity of our planet and humanity...

[bluegrass]

Bitty states "It is one of the best HDV cameras currently on the market within its price range and gives us progressive capture that only recently would have been out of the reach of many of us financially."

I think your summation puts this camcorder in the right perspective. Well said, Bitty.