Guys, I've been watching footages in Vimeo, shot using HV20/30 + Letus Mini and noticed that all footages were vignetting! Dear Letus Mini users, is that true?
HV20/30 + Letus Mini = Vignette?
Guys, I've been watching footages in Vimeo, shot using HV20/30 + Letus Mini and noticed that all footages were vignetting! Dear Letus Mini users, is that true?
I don't know. It's not true that the letus has a vignette problem at all, but it might be true that the footages you've seen using the minis had vignetting.
I have the Letus Mini, and sometimes I let it vignette a little bit depending on the shot. But it's very easy to zoom past the area that has any vignetting. If you watch some of MY footage using the Letus you will see that some shots have a little bit of vignetting, and other shots have zero vignetting. It's a matter of taste.
I like a little bit of it sometimes. Just a little bit. I've also filmed a few things with the Letus that I've had completely zoomed out to where you can see all of the inner workings of the adaptor. It has a cool look too for a few circumstances. The Letus Mini can EASILY be used to show zero vignetting from edge to edge.
This is a link to one of my films. It has varying degrees of vignetting from zero to a bunch. You can go to other of my films and see different artistic ways I've used the Letus with and without vignetting.
http://www.vimeo.com/953305
Ian, the Letus will show vignette when if it is not zoomed in enough to hide the vignette. When you shot with Twoneil's adapter, didn't you have to zoom in on the GG as well? Now is there a difference in the amount you need to zoom between the two? That I don't know..
This all comes back to my Theory (it's still a theory) that:
big camera + Letus = no vignetting
small camera + Letus = vignetting
(*Provided that the full 35mm frame is showing)
In our case, the HV20/30 is a small camera.
Just my 2 cents but I think an 'expensive' 35mm adapter like Mini shouldn't produces vignettes, especially when there's enough available lights? For a matter of taste, one can add any vignettes in post (editing), and not when shooting... I think I must agree with Twoneil's theory, I rarely seen vignetting footages shot using big camcorders + Extreme. Despite of small or big camcorders, the specific adapter created for small cams like HV20/30 is supposed to counter any problems (e.g. vignettes). Again, just my 2 cents
Last edited by Ian Lim; 2008 May 12th at 12:18.
I don't have experience with big camera+adapter but with my setup, at some point it will vignette but I think this is true for any adapter. Proper setup will help - making sure everything is well aligned and center. Then there's the zooming in as part of the setup. Order is important. Zooming is the last step. I always preview the shot especially when I change lenses and adjust my zoom to the max point without vignette if that's the goal. If I need to be wider, I change lens or step back. It's all balance and playing with it. There will be user errors out there. There's just so much to remember. Sometimes, I even forget to turn on the power to vibrate. It's all old school - working hard to get the shots you want and everything manual for maximum creativity.
If you stick a camcorder directly to the Rerock M2 and zoom in until just before you lose focus, you will get vignetting. If you stick a spacer tube on there, you can zoom in past the vignetting.
Mostly due to the type of screen being used. It is a spinning peice of glass that has been ground with some kind of chemicals. The Brevis, on the other hand uses a fresnel with concentric grooves like the ee-s so the difussion across that ground glass is better and corrects vignetting more effectively.
In my opinion, glass like the Letus and Redrock (which is ground) have a more cinematic bokeh and it's worth trying to set up the adapter to zoom in past the vignetting.
to reduce chance of vignette you should also use lenses with larger apertures. With the brevis, any lens below 35mm you want a lens f2.0 or lower to avoid vignette. Above 35mm(including zooms) you can get away with lenses in the f2.8-3.5 range and sometimes even f4.0 telephoto zooms..
If you add the brevis flip module you can actually reduce vignetting on slower wide angle lens and zooms, but the compromise is that slower telephoto lenses that didn't vignette will start to show some.
if you correctly set up your adapter you can avoid vignetting, just zoom past it so it's out of the frame.. don't trust the flip out screen on the camera for this... it does not show you the full scanned image, use the hdmi out to an HD monitor for set-up.. I typically shoot with no vignette, and if I want that look I add it with AE or Magic Bullet Suite.
Mark Carey
www.markoneHD.com
I'll admit that I haven't had first hand experience yet but it seems to me that you can always adjust how much of the focus screen you frame by using HV20's zoom. Thus if you want to remove vignetting as you shoot, you would just zoom in a little on the focus screen until it dissappears. Wouldn't the amount of pixels and frame ratio always stay the same? I guess if you had to zoom in to far on the focus screen, the quality of the video could deteriorate a little. I don't know how sensitive the deterioration to the zoom factor it would be. Hopefully not very noticeable.
You have to quantify that statement by how much zoom is involved. Any DOF adapter on ANY sized camera will vignette if you're not zoomed-in properly.Originally Posted by twoneil
The Vignette exist on the GG, so if you zoom past that, the vignette no longer appears in your frame. So to me it doesn't make too much sense to say one setup vignettes while the other setup doesn't. Unless, I understood you incorrectly Neil...
As I said already, The Letus does NOT equal vignetting. If you want a little then you don't zoom past it. If you don't want any you zoom past it. Like others have said, it's not a good idea to trust the viewfinder for this. If you want to make sure you get zero vignetting then you have to zoom in about 10 to 15 percent further than your eye can tell. That will bring you out of the danger zone. If you zoom completely in with the camera you wont get any vignetting what so ever. Phillip Bloom has even stated that a lot of times he uses the Letus fully zoomed in on it. It's just the way these adaptors work. The thing is that you can still use so many lenses to get the shots you want. Far more than worring about zooming. Go ahead and zoom in. It's not a problem. Don't fight the urge to abstain from it. Now if you are like me, and you want a little bit of vignetting around the edges sometimes, then let some vignetting happen. Artistically speaking, I enjoy a little bit of it at some points, and when I don't want any , i zoom further in and it gets rid of the vignetting totally, and without question. Don't let this discussion prevent you from buying the Letus. It is one of the finest adaptors available, and it's built DAMN well. When you get it you will not be disappointed.
Admittedly, these adaptors take some practice until you get control over your image, vignetting, look, focus, etc... but all 35mm adaptors take a lot of practice, and the difference between using an adaptor and not is HUGE. I'll never go back. Ever. It makes the image look organic, and photo like. Just like film. Seriously, it makes your footage look like it was shot with 35 mm film. No comparison to an HV20 without one. Add to this mix very good lighting, sound, composition, and sets, you get a totally film like outcome.
Now, if you like using automatic settings, and auto focus, and film hand held, run and gun, mainly for family events, then skip the adaptor and use the camera as is. It's a great camera. BUT, for serious filming with the HV20 the time and practice that it requires to get the 35 mm adaptors to do what you want pays off in a way that FAR exceeds using the camera without one. Letus, Brevis, Redrock, are the finest adaptors.
The do it yourself ones can vary in outcome.
Braveface - I've ordered a Letus Mini and your words were encouraging. I'm not stating this just because you supported Letus in your post but I found a lot of powerful words of wisdom in your post. Thanks for that insight. I know it will be a whole new world of video shooting with a DOF adaptor. I'm a fly by the seat of my pants kind of guy. I just hope I don't crash too many times when I get the adaptor.
You guys are making "zooming all the way in" sound like it's nothing..
When you zoom all the way in, you loose the FOV that you were shooting for and you loose additional light.
I didn't know that Bloom has said that he uses it zoomed in all the way, but then I guess I should have known seeing his work...
^
yeah, if you zoom in too much the hv20 aperture changes and you loose light. Also, you start to hose the mm ranges on your lenses.. like a 35mm will be too close on the subject, or wideangle lenses won't be so wide..
Those are issues with every single DOF adaptor made. Anybody who claims that the Letus has more issues than a DIY model is insane. If you are afraid of loosing light there is no adaptor on the market that is for you. The Brevis eats a little less light, but the Letus looks better. These adaptors aren't toys, or simple solutions for making bad video look good. In the hands of somebody who cant afford to light there scene properly you will get crappy images.
Stick to just using your camera as is if this means you. OR use a DIY adaptor outside , only in real bright light.
If you are about to start challenging yourself, and work with your camera more like it is a professional tool, like a film camera then you need to treat it like one.
Have you ever shot on 35 mm? With a film camera? They need enormous amounts of light. Even more than a Canon HV20 with a 35 mm adaptor. It is a trade off. Either you want some real good footage of dogs jumping in rivers on the fly with no tripod, out in the daylight, or you want beautifully shot, and lit images with your camera and a 35 mm adaptor. Like I said, all of those adaptors eat light, but the payoff is ridiculously better images if you compose, light, and film using graceful moves.
It's far superior in look and feel to a straight digital camera image. I know it's easier to NOT use these adaptors, so if you are afraid of light issues get out of the kitchen.
I bought a couple 600 watt lights, and made 8 other lights that can go from 100 to 350 watts, and I study lighting a lot. The adaptor ( LETUS ) for me is an incredible tool that makes your camera worth a lot more in the end, as long as you take the extra steps.
I never said that zooming doesn't eat more light, but if you shoot outside in the sunlight it's actually a damn good thing it does because you can get a more proper exposure with less blowing out. I still have to use various filters to bring down the amount of light even more. This whole light business is being blown out of proportion greatly. Even if you don't use adaptors you have to add light indoors, ( unless you either do the exposure lock trick and like an underexposed image ) to prevent noise.
The adaptor doesn't make it any harder to light indoors. If you don't have enough lights in your arsenal to light for your camera pluse an adaptor to get a nice image,
then you don't have enough lights in your arsenal to light your camera without one either.
If you don't have lights for your video, then you are a slave to natural light conditions, or a very limited amount of indoor style shots. YOU NEED LIGHTS EITHER WAY, or just stay outside and shoot flowers all day. What do I know, I just get sick of the flower shots every now and again.
I myself have had no additional issues with lighting with the adaptor. I either have enough lite, or I add some. Outside in the dusk to dawn part of the day I haven't had to add light , EVER. A reflector is good though for fill....
This is the same with all 35 mm adaptors. a wide angle lens WILL loose some of its width if you zoom all of the way in. It's not a big deal though. There are a lot of ways around that. I tend to treat a super wide- semi fish like a wide sometimes and zoom completely in. The result is a very wide wide angle with no visual distortion and since you end up using less of the lens ( like you would anyhow unless you want the circle to show in your shot ) you end up with a great looking wide angle. My 28 mm lens is still pretty wide when I zoom out of the vignette, and is still much wider than a 50 mm.
For using 50 mm lenses, you really don't encounter a difference in difficulty getting your shot the way you want, even if you HAVE to for some reason zoom in all the way, which you don't. I think I zoom about 70 percent to get out of the vignette area totally. Any longer lenses than a 50 and you wont have the issue at all. Zoom past the vignetting area and you still use the long lenses for the same exact shots you would have.
The only times I notice the issue with a 35 mm adaptor is with the wide lenses, and like I said, I just use wider lenses than I would without an adaptor. The outcome is still FAR, FAR, FAR, better than without an adaptor.
It's all taste in the end, but I've known since I got the HV20 that I'd get an adaptor for it. Everything I shot before I got the adaptor looked great, but like video. Even in Cine Mode 24p, and everything else , 180 degree shutter and all, it still looked like video, all be it very good video.
I like the look of film more than video. You may be the other way around.
It takes about 10 times longer to prepare for a shoot when I use my Letus than it would without it. It's a pain in the ass, and a joy. One thing is for sure though, it is a Mac Daddy adaptor. Built like a tank, and the precision that goes into them is undeniable, if you've used one before.
I haven't use a Brevis, or Redrock, but just the fact that the Letus flips the image before it gets to your camera makes a hell of a difference in comfort, and composition, not to mention you don't have to do a flip hack, use an upside down rig, or other things to deal with. The optics are incredible.
The image is filmed exactly the way you see it. No flipping it in post or in real time. It's just more complete.
Yeah, I second thatI already own a Brevis (with CF1 diffuser, which is very good for HV20, less vignetting). Also own 2 (two) DIY adapters, each from Twoneil and Worley, both using Ee-S screens. I'm going to buy Letus Mini anyway, because it's less bulky and right flipped image
Thanks for your opinions, guys! This forum rocks!
Wow! Ian, you're a collector of 35mm adaptersYeah, I second that
Maybe you should consider a Red One
Haha, I know someone crazier than me! Red One? Mmm, Scarlet perhaps...
Letus flips the image back to the proper way. Brevis don't. They're both good adaptors.
Letus is probably less expensive if you consider it saves you a bunch of do it yourself time and money. You should hold one. It's impressive. Even the battery plate is well thought out. Magnetic, no screws. It just sticks on and pulls off. Very sweet!!. There is also less problem with getting your focusing screen dirty or getting dust in there, which are both terrible problems. It's well protected!!!
Brace (and other Letus Mini owners), how long does it take to set up the HV20 and Letus Mini combination? Is it a complete pain-in-the-ass every time? Do you leave your HV20 mounted to it?
I own a Redrock M2 but am thinking about selling it and getting a Letus. Although the Redrock is a quality piece of kit, getting it properly configured (mounting, setting backfocus, etc.) takes some time. It pretty much requires rails, which necessitates a tripod. So things are getting bulky... I do a fair amount of handheld run-and-gun style shooting, and it would be ideal to have an adapter that I can tote around in my backpack.
I'm not doing narrative work. I need equipment that can be used without extensive amounts of setup time. I've even thought about buying a second HV20 and leaving it permanently mounted to the Letus, if this would help eliminate the setup process.
Anyway, any of your insights would be appreciated.
Last edited by Sean Michael; 2008 May 15th at 13:22.
Bored? Check out my blog! (video shot with HV20 & Sony EX1): LongLongHoneymoon.com
Well, for me it takes about 5 minutes now that I know what to do. That includes mounting it on my support rods. Having said that, I thought about buying a 2nd hv20 or hf100 for a couple of reasons: 1 - so I can have the letus permanently mounted and ready to go and 2 - If I want a camera to fly around or shoot action and use auto focus, I have one that's light and ready to go, and 3 - my wife can just take the 2nd camera for school events. The only thing stoping me is my waiting for Scarlet but everyday I debate about it since that's not until next year and it sure would be nice for those reasons I mentioned.
Ronnie
http://www.vimeo.com/ronniesilos
Thanks Ronnie... With regard to having more than one camera, I use two -- an HV20 and a Sony HC3.
I must say that having a second camera is a great convenience. I keep my HV20 affixed to a tripod plate, while the HC3 is usually the B-cam affixed to a beanbag-pod, car mount, or whatever.
It would be a luxury to have an HV20 mounted to an adapter, to be able to grab it and get results quickly. In my filmmaking (often done when I'm on the road somewhere, traveling) I've discovered that if it isn't convenient to use, I probably won't use it. I'm not saying it has to be easy (I realize all 35mm adapters will have some issues), just convenient.
I've considered picking up an XHA1, but its bulk & heft gives me pause. I'm thinking an HV20/Letus combo might actually be a more useful addition to the arsenal.
Bored? Check out my blog! (video shot with HV20 & Sony EX1): LongLongHoneymoon.com
I have to agree with twoniel, it does depend on the setup you have. I have recently added a condenser to my diy adapter as I'm using Alex's ggs and I have zero vignette.
This is my hv20 zoomed all the way out:
some footage: http://vimeo.com/1013650
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