30p, 24p, 60i oh my!

[gurumonkey]

Okay. I tried to read this whole thing, but i have a feeling i accidently fastforwarded myself to the final page.

I'm just looking for affirmation in my thinking.

I created this video for my church. [ame="http://www.vimeo.com/6432267"]The NT Experiment on Vimeo[/ame]

Aside from the color sorta blowing, i also noticed that if you look at his lips, i'm getting funky lines.

I shot using my HV30 at the normal HDV mode, edited a bit in final cut express, and then at some point in the export process found a button for deinterlace, and clicked it.

Now, if i am understanding this forum right, i should have shot in HDV PF30 mode because 1. i wasn't capturing fast motion (or desiring slow motion) and 2. i was putting the video online.

So if i had done that, i should have (this was my first video...) shot like that, imported STILL as a 1080i60 project, told it to not choose one of the fields...(am i right on this part), and never checked any kind of deinterlace at the end.

and that would fix the funny lip lines. missing anything? (or dead wrong?)

if i simply hadn't selected the deinterlace at the end with my the 60i setting, would that have worked or would i get a different funky problem?

btw, so far i love this forum! learning a ton from reading up on this stuff.

[cgbier]

You sure you really de-interlaced it? Did you export it straight to QT or did you use the QT Conversion?

I don't think that FCE even knows what to do with PF30.

[gurumonkey]

seriously? FCE couldn't handle 30? i am sure that i clicked on an export option that said de-interlace. it was qt conversion with the h.264 compression.

[cgbier]

It can export 30p, but doesn't have a HDV30p timeline setting. That's what I meant. Sorry for the confusion.

[Clubcard]

Ok i just went into the menu on my camera and all it has is:

HDV
HDV(pf25)
DV wide
DV normal

Should there not be a setting for HDV (pf30)?

[cgbier]

Should there not be a setting for HDV (pf30)?

If you had an NTSC cam, yes. Yours is PAL.

[Clubcard]

Well that was simple, thanks!

[angelog]

Hi,

I have just created a blog about video production and some tips&tricks.

I gave a brief explanation, with examples, about the 24P 30P 60i question.

http://astuff.net/2009/10/21/tipsand...-vs-30p-vs-60i

Go check it out.

[2Bdecided]

http://astuff.net/2009/10/21/tipsand...-vs-30p-vs-60i

None of your links on that page work. All the video clips are 16kB 404 - not found html pages!

Plus what you say about 24p = brighter, 60i = darker only applies if there is insufficient light. In good light, there's no difference.

(or if you change the shutter speed while locking the aperture and exposure/gain - but in practice you'd use the exposure/gain and aperture to get the brightness you want - when there's enough light to do so - but getting control of shutter speed, exposure/gain, and aperture on the HV30 is hardly trivial!).


I think you're also misleading your readers saying that just switching to 24p on an HV30 "gives you a stunning video with the Hollywood film look". I doubt most users who pick up an HV30 and switch to 24p are going to watch the result and think "ooo, it looks just like a Hollywood movie" To look like a movie, in addition to the careful shooting you mentioned, you need to consider lighting, depth of field, story telling shots, colour grading, etc etc etc.

Without such care, what most people get from 24p is video that looks faulty!

Cheers,
David.

[angelog]

None of your links on that page work. All the video clips are 16kB 404 - not found html pages!

Plus what you say about 24p = brighter, 60i = darker only applies if there is insufficient light. In good light, there's no difference.

(or if you change the shutter speed while locking the aperture and exposure/gain - but in practice you'd use the exposure/gain and aperture to get the brightness you want - when there's enough light to do so - but getting control of shutter speed, exposure/gain, and aperture on the HV30 is hardly trivial!).


I think you're also misleading your readers saying that just switching to 24p on an HV30 "gives you a stunning video with the Hollywood film look". I doubt most users who pick up an HV30 and switch to 24p are going to watch the result and think "ooo, it looks just like a Hollywood movie" To look like a movie, in addition to the careful shooting you mentioned, you need to consider lighting, depth of field, story telling shots, colour grading, etc etc etc.

Without such care, what most people get from 24p is video that looks faulty!

Cheers,
David.

I fixed the links, thank you.

What I have wrote on my blog is for general understanding. I am targeting a general audience.

I did mention that I used the HV30 out of the box for the tests.

A complimentary post will be added eventually explaining in depth everything that needs to be done. I don't want to scare out my readers... this is a blog I started 10 days ago.

Would you be interested in doing a in-depth analysis of 24vs30vs60? I am not making any revenue yet, but I could give you some sort of visibility: Link on your site or something.

In 10 days I got over 400 readers.

Plz email me: info@astuff.net

[Haruspex]

I shoot in 30p and import using HDVSplit. I edit in Premiere CS3.
My question is, why is the footage and the presets on 30p showing a 29.97 timeline. I thought it would be exactly 30p no dropped frames.

[ejolson]

why is the footage and the presets on 30p showing a 29.97 timeline. I thought it would be exactly 30p no dropped frames.

In 1953 the NTSC officially reduced 30 to 29.97.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NTSC

[yobgems]

Hi. I'm looking to set my Canon HV40 (PAL) to the 50i mode. I read what you said about it being the defualt settings for the 60i mode when replying to Mitosh but what exactly do you meen by the default settings because I have been going through them all and don't know where I started now?! Sorry if this noobie Q bothers you.

[cgbier]

There is no 60i in PAL. 50i is your default if you set the cam to HDV.

[Opaki]

I hope i got all this right:

If i say i got a 30 fps (frames per second) video clip, it can be :
1. A real native progressive 30 fps stream
2. A real native progressive 29.971 fps stream
3. A progressive 29.971 fps wrapped in a interlacing 60i stream (Progressive Segmented Frame (PsF))
4. A progressive 23.976 pulled down 3:2 to 60i stream
5. A real 60i interlaced stream

Ntsc version of Hv30 and above can record only in modes 3,4,5 plus real native progressive 23.967 fps clip
Pal hv30 and above can record only in 25i(PsF) and 50i

example :

I got a 29.971 fps video clip witch hold 2 frames (if native progressive stream) or 4 fields (if interlaced stream).

I'v divided it into 4 moments. At the first and third moment in interlacing stream Field 1 updates and in progressive nothing happens.
At the second and fourth moment in interlacing stream field 2 updates and in progressive stream whole frame's are updated.

SO :

Real native progressive :
moment1(nothing)--moment2(whole frame updates--moment3(nothing)--moment4(whole frame updates)

Progressive wrapped in an interlaced stream:
moment1(field1 updates)--moment2(field2 updates to state of moment1)--moment3(field1 updates)--moment4(field2 updates to state of moment3)

23.967 pulled down to 60i :
A whole bunch of field orders

Real interlacing 60i stream :
moment1(field1 updates)--moment2(field2 updates)--moment3(field1 updates)--moment4(field2 updates)

I'm new to this so correct me where i'v gone wrong.

[Robehgo14]

Ok i just went into the menu on my hv20 camera and all it has is:

HDV
HDV(pf24)
DV wide
DV normal

Should there not be a setting for HDV (pf30)?

[Pali]

Ok i just went into the menu on my hv20 camera and all it has is:

HDV
HDV(pf24)
DV wide
DV normal

Should there not be a setting for HDV (pf30)?

Sounds like you have an HV20. There is no pf30 in the HV20.

[ovebrook]

thanks to everyone on this forum.. has been great.. just got a lightly used hv30, DOF, 50mm 1.8 Canon lens, a couple of Audio technica Pro88Ws and a Beachtek ready for a shoot this weekend.. I've been looking at my Premiere CS3 settings and when shooting in 30p mode it seems only the 1080 60i project settings don't require the capture footage to be rendered.. CS3 has a Canon HDV 30f setting with no fields but when i import the footage i have to render it which I want to avoid.. So from reading this forum I can work on 60i and export progressive out of Premiere when I need to right? Thanks again.. I've searched multiple threads but can't quite seem to find a specific answer..

[um3k]

Use the 30F setting. Then, once you import your footage, select it all in the "project" panel, right click, select "interpret footage," and change field operation (or whatever it is called) to "progressive (no fields)."

[askclifford]

Good advice

[mrQQ]

Hello,

say, I have 3 different footages:

one shot in 25i
one shot in pf25
one shot in 50i

let's say I'm working in 25p timeline on Premiere Elements/Pro.

Adding first one, I need to set Field Options to Deinterlace. Correct?

Now, the other two is a mystery for me. On tape, they are stored in same 50i stream, using half frames. However, in one case two consequent half-frames were taken at same time, in other, 1/50 apart. Or something like that.

Now, how does Premiere interpret those? Does it take two neighbour half-frames and weave them together in both cases?

[The Next Scorsese]

Which framerate should it be in if I burn it onto DVD and send it to film festivals? 24p? Yeah? Most likely... someone correct me or assure me I'm right. Thanks. Oh, and professional DVD burning? Does it effect the quality of the end product? Thanks.

[Fade to inferno]

Which framerate should it be in if I burn it onto DVD and send it to film festivals? 24p? Yeah? Most likely... someone correct me or assure me I'm right. Thanks. Oh, and professional DVD burning? Does it effect the quality of the end product? Thanks.

yes im sure 24p should be fine. I don't think it actually matters. but if you're using your hv20 remember to do the pull down. and i'm not sure what you mean about professional dvd burning

[Janke]

I'd go for 30p, much less hassle, looks almost the same as 24p.

The quality of DVD burning is dependent on the bitrate, usually settable in the burning software.

[drapeama]

I'd go for 30p, much less hassle, looks almost the same as 24p.
The quality of DVD burning is dependent on the bitrate, usually settable in the burning software.

1) 30p is a very good option if you don't have 24p. (Both 24p [23.976] and 30p [29.976] are NTSC dvd compliant = pulldown will automatically inserted for 24p project for playback compliancy)
2) Right. You can easilly calculate the video bitrate by substracting the audio bitrate -> 10080kbps (max A/V muxed bitrate) - 448kbps = 9632kbps. You video can have a maximum bitrate of 9632kbps and the average bitrate will determine the total size of the video. You can always use this (very nice online app btw). And to compress the video, i'd strongly suggest you to use an HD source, and i'm personally using HCencoder which works with Avisynth.