SCARLET by Red Digital Cinema [Archive] - High Definition Digital Video Forum

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cinemasteve87

2008 April 14th, 11:42

^^^^

I predict that without the lens and lcd screen, it's going to be about $4000. Let's hope that it's affordable for us allllllllllllllllllllll!

koolpenguin89

2008 April 14th, 11:47

Is there anywhere to get minute-by-minute updates? CamcorderInfo.com takes too long to post there stuff.

Dylan

Mal

2008 April 14th, 11:56

I'll be looking forward to buying one....in 2010 when they're available, or 2011 when they actually work....if RED ONE is anything to go by!
:hv20-smilie15::hv20-smilie81::hv20-smilie15:

Eugenia Loli-Queru

2008 April 14th, 12:52

This camera kicks ass. RED announced two new cameras today, the Scarlet 3k and the 5k EPIC:
http://www.red.com/nab/scarlet
http://www.red.com/nab/epic

Here are the specs for the Scarlet, which is said to ONLY cost $3000:

* NEW 2/3" MYSTERIUM X SENSOR
* 1-120 FPS (180FPS BURST)
* UP TO 100 MB/SEC REDCODE RAW AND RGB RECORDING TO DUAL COMPACT FLASH
* 4.8" LCD
* 8X T2.8 RED ZOOM LENS
* FULL AUTO OR FULL MANUAL SHOOTING MODES
* HDMI and HD-SDI
* FIREWIRE 800 and USB2
* STILL MODE
* COMPATIBLE WITH MANY RED ONE ACCESSORIES
* WI-FI CONTROL

At 2/3s of an inch sensor means HUGE BACKGROUND BLUR!!! No need for freaking 35mm adapters anymore for most people who just want some basic depth of field! I am getting one 100% if the price is indeed $3000. RED is kicking Panasonic's, Canon's and Sony's ass here, very seriously, in the indie filmmaker's world that is (for TV reporting stuff, not so).

jmalmsten

2008 April 14th, 12:59

Now... that's going to relegate my poor old HV20 to strict holiday-shooting after 2009... :)

ForwardLooker

2008 April 14th, 13:15

http://red.cachefly.net/nab/red_3k_scarlet_hero.png

Mal

2008 April 14th, 13:29

RED can build excitement, no doubt about that. They are good at that.

For anyone owning a HV20 or HV30, I'd not be too worried about this announcement though.
Your cam can produce perfectly stunning moving images, now and in the future.

RED's first product was a couple of years late, and I am sure they'll have equal problems introducing this incarnation, as appealing as it seems right now.

Eugenia; yes, it "appears" that they'll kick a whole bunch of arse with this; but from experience, by the time they actually come out with working units Sony/Pana/JVC and all them will also have new products; and the gap is certainly not that great anymore.

The difference is, RED announces stuff WELL in advance, so at the time it looks VERY cool.

Not saying I won't also buy one, but I've learned to believe only 50% of what I see and only 0.5% of what I read...

Rikki

2008 April 14th, 13:35

For £1,500 I'd buy one right now if I could :D

Eugenia Loli-Queru

2008 April 14th, 13:35

by the time they actually come out with working units Sony/Pana/JVC and all them will also have new products

I don't see any of these companies going close to this product. Look at Canon's new updated cameras: $10000. Look at the new Sony one yesterday: $10000. And they are NOWHERE near as optimized for 1080p+ filmmaking as the Scarlet is at $3000.

I do expect this model to be ready next year, in small quantities -- just like the RED ONE was. But you know, that's good enough. The company revolutionizes the whole indie filmmaking market, mostly with their low prices rather than their features.

This is a very exciting camera for enthusiasts, at a very low price. I don't expect any other company to match its specs, for a long time from now. Just like they haven't matched the RED ONE yet either. Far from it.

You want interchangeable lenses on your prosumer Canon? That'll cost you another $4000, plus the lenses. I never understood that, especially when Canon could be making lots of money from EOS lens sales rather than over-charging for the mount.

threadhanger

2008 April 14th, 13:46

If Batman had a camera, this would be it.

This is going to make HV20 footage look homely. I'm going to try and use willpower to hold off looking at test footage from it as long as possible.

Mal

2008 April 14th, 13:46

The company revolutionizes the whole indie filmmaking market....

You mean RED?
See, I never quite understood that; although I do understand the neat "excitement" that sort of rhetoric can instill, but come on; revolution?

Let's be realistic; it's not THAT big of a deal, REALLY. There's other options in the digital cinema area, and I can't see anyone on big productions sweating the cost of rental of cams.

It does make fantastic image quality available to "us" poor people; unfortunately we don't have the necessary dough to make up for all the other stuff to make worthwhile movies, such as lighting/audio/talent, and all that stuff.

Sorry, I don't buy the "revolution" argument for one second; but the sunglasses guy is a clever marketeer, I'll give him that.

:hv20-smilie84:

koolpenguin89

2008 April 14th, 13:48

I agree, i WILL be buying this camera. BTW, if you look at the bottom of the pic, it says "We are NOT taking reservations for Scarlet, Epic, or REDRAY at this time". What is REDRAY?

Dylan

Ivan Fuentes

2008 April 14th, 13:48

RED can build excitement, no doubt about that. They are good at that.

This camera kicks ass.

lol!

Sorry Eugenia, but to me, red is and will always be 90% hype. If it's about kicking Sony/Canon/Panasonic's ass, I can also get a PhantomHD or Kinetta. Some things less than RED, some things more.

koolpenguin89

2008 April 14th, 13:51

NVM, apparently REDRAY is some type of playback deck for ultra-high-def footage.

Dylan

booggerg

2008 April 14th, 13:53

You want interchangeable lenses on your prosumer Canon? That'll cost you another $4000, plus the lenses. I never understood that, especially when Canon could be making lots of money from EOS lens sales rather than over-charging for the mount.

You mean you want to mount an EOS lens designed for a full-frame 35mm sensor on a 1/3 or 2/3" sensor pro-sumer video camera? I'm sure you can fig out for yourself how useful those lenses will be after the crop factor...

One could argue that Canon should start creating their own line of 35mm adapters.. but why would they create something to compete with their high-end gear?

At 2/3s of an inch sensor means HUGE BACKGROUND BLUR!!! No need for freaking 35mm adapters anymore for most people who just want some basic depth of field! I am getting one 100% if the price is indeed $3000. RED is kicking Panasonic's, Canon's and Sony's ass here, very seriously, in the indie filmmaker's world that is (for TV reporting stuff, not so).

2/3 still PALES in comparison to the 35mm frame size.. still much much larger DOF than using a full frame sensor or a Letus 35mm adapter.

2/3 still gives you the video look in terms of DOF..

Mal

2008 April 14th, 13:56

RedRay:
1380

cinemasteve87

2008 April 14th, 13:57

Holy S***! I'm getting this when I have the cash!!!!!!!!!! If it's under 3 grand of course :)

Rikki

2008 April 14th, 14:00

RedRay is Red's answer to BluRay :D

threadhanger

2008 April 14th, 14:02

I bet you'll be able to get a used XHA1 dirt cheap when this comes out.

cinemasteve87

2008 April 14th, 14:21

As much as I love my HV20, the Red Scarlet is every independent film maker's dream. For it's possible price range and specs, this camera blows away any other competition in the same price range. I predict the same revolutionary impact the HV20/HV30 had over other consumer cameras that the Red Scarlet will have against other high-end professional cameras.

booggerg

2008 April 14th, 14:34

sensor size comparo:

full frame 35 and DOF adapter still owns...

In other words.. Red should come out with their own line of 35mm adapter that will play nicely with the Scarlett. Should have no flip module to reduce bulk, but add flip functionality to the camera's LCD and recording unit and charge $1500-$2000 for the adapter. <-- That would be the ultimate indie kit.

Ian-T

2008 April 14th, 14:49

booggerg

2008 April 14th, 15:00

It's still a ways off from 1/2.7 though. Wouldn't that mean I will not have to stand back as far as I currently do to get a blurred background?

Anyways...nice announcement...but when are they REALLY going to come out with this?

Larger sensor = smaller DOF..

It'll be an improvement but you still can't achieve the dramatic shallow DOF that you see in films.

Just think of it this way, most ENG(news gathering type camera) used for broadcast have 2/3 sensor sizes, so you're already used to the kind of image you'd get from a 2/3 sensor. Will the Scarlett give you dramatically more film-like images such as in the case of using a 35 adapter? Nope. Is it a great camera to use in low light to efficiently use a DOF adatper? Yes siree!

haw_206

2008 April 14th, 16:14

What about the new Red Epic 5k? Someone's already saying it'll be better than a Cinealta F35 but costing only 1/10... is that all true?

Ivan Fuentes

2008 April 14th, 16:30

I read somewhere the next RED announcement will be able to transform itself from a full sized HD camera with Panavision Lenses, into a mobile phone, with touchscreen, full MacOSX, and also an optional module to attach an espresso machine that turns into a director's viewfinder. Bundled for under $2000, and ready in a couple of months.

Duke

2008 April 14th, 16:47

I am getting one 100% if the price is indeed $3000. RED is kicking Panasonic's, Canon's and Sony's ass here, very seriously, in the indie filmmaker's world that is (for TV reporting stuff, not so).

It looks like each part is an accessory and you'll spend another $3-$4,000 on grips, something to record on, etc. Then there's lenses, etc.

For example, the Red is $17,000 and three prime lenses are another $15,000. Then handles, monitor, etc are on top of that on top.

Rikki

2008 April 14th, 17:31

Looked like it was $3000 with a lens, LCD and writes to compact flash with sound. Unlike the Red One which was a modular system.

mattias

2008 April 14th, 20:01

2/3" is not the size of the sensor, it's the size of the tube used back in the days to create a sensor of the same size. the size of a 2/3" inch sensor is 8.8x6.6mm, smaller than 16mm, and yes it's the common eng size. i'm a bit disappointed. i'd much rather take a full size lower res sensor, even 720p.

/matt

Mal

2008 April 14th, 20:19

Looked like it was $3000 with a lens, LCD and writes to compact flash with sound. Unlike the Red One which was a modular system.

yeah, although the RED ONE originally "came" with a whole bunch of other stuff which they stripped out before first delivery.
Remember when they included "everything" to shoot, including LCD, and a recording media too, I believe?

Like I said, they are hype-masters! :hv20-smilie03:

Ian-T

2008 April 14th, 20:46

Some pics from this (http://redmodz.com/component/content/article/55-nab-2008/84-3k-scarlet) link:
http://redmodz.com/images/img_3353.jpg
http://redmodz.com/images/img_3347.jpg

Rikki

2008 April 14th, 20:54

Didnt know they made scuba equipment

Ian-T

2008 April 14th, 20:55

lol...I was trying to find the words....but......that kind of put it in perspective. It does look like it could be submerged.

booggerg

2008 April 14th, 21:48

I assume if you extend the rails, then you can fit a shoulder pad onto it.. otherwise, it'd be quite front heavy.

quite an ugly camera imho.. Why can't they just put all the hardware inside a beefed up HVX?

koolpenguin89

2008 April 14th, 21:58

They're trying to be "different" and "new". I guess no one remember that they promised a pocket cam? try fitting that thing in your pocket, lol.

Dylan

threadhanger

2008 April 14th, 22:47

They're trying to be "different" and "new". I guess no one remember that they promised a pocket cam? try fitting that thing in your pocket, lol.

Dylan

I think it's more about taking something out of your pocket, from their perspective.

Judging from that picture, that thing looks heavy. And thus very expensive. $3000 might buy the chassis, but I bet the lens hood will cost $300, the LCD about $500, etc. And plus you'll need a helluva computer to edit with. I bet when it's all said and done it'll be closer $10000 out of your pocket.

booggerg

2008 April 14th, 23:24

I think it's more about taking something out of your pocket, from their perspective.

Judging from that picture, that thing looks heavy. And thus very expensive. $3000 might buy the chassis, but I bet the lens hood will cost $300, the LCD about $500, etc. And plus you'll need a helluva computer to edit with. I bet when it's all said and done it'll be closer $10000 out of your pocket.

HD LCD? Try $1300
Grip + handle? Try $500

tcindie

2008 April 15th, 01:00

They're trying to be "different" and "new". I guess no one remember that they promised a pocket cam? try fitting that thing in your pocket, lol.

Dylan

I have big pockets.. :)

Sadly I don't also have "deep pockets" :(

markone

2008 April 15th, 03:25

Reminds me of the NAB 2005 preview of the RED, people were lined up for hours to glimpse a mock-up in a plexiglass box, yes they did ship the RED three years later, and in limited quantities... so maybe in 2011 we'll see this one.. in the mean time I'm gonna use the tools I already have to produce revenue generating, award winning and personally satisfying productions and make and save enough money to buy the GREY, or the BLUE or maybe the MAGENTA... Try not to get too wrapped up in the "Hardware Hype", use what you have and make a movie..

Mark Carey
www.markoneHD.com

Mal

2008 April 15th, 06:38

Totally agree Mark; that's the way I see it also.

There's plenty affordable and good 'tools' out there now to make great movies.

My guess is 80% of what has been shot on RED ONE so far is shown on YouTube or SD broadcast; the next 15% maybe 720p or 1080p.
There's a couple of excellent film transfers.....oh but wait; there's plenty of film transfers that originated from SD cams also, and not many walked out of the cinema saying they didn't approve of the low pixel-count.
This notion that we "need" 3k, 4k or even 5k is ludicrous.

To me this is like buying a 50lbs turkey for Thanksgiving to feed a small family. Sure the thing looks impressive in the store; but once you bring it home, you soon realize you need a bigger oven (=computer); and it takes MUCH longer to cook (=long render times); and most of it gets thrown away anyway, as it was simply too big (=downconverted for final broadcast).

Excess (ek'ses):
Immoderation as a consequence of going beyond sufficient or permitted limits

:hv20-smilie81:

Mal

2008 April 15th, 06:46

Reminds me of the NAB 2005 preview of the RED...

BTW, in all fairness, wasn't that NAB 2006?

Rikki

2008 April 15th, 07:53

I agree, just saying its cool and maybe since Red actually have a clue now and not just an idea they might get things moving a bit quicker.

Love my HV20 and its not going anywhere for a while anyway.

markone

2008 April 15th, 10:49

Mal, I guess you're right... NAB 2006, been to so many I lost count.
Mark Carey
www.markoneHD.com

Ian-T

2008 April 15th, 11:02

....and most of it gets thrown away anyway, as it was simply too big (=downconverted for final broadcast).

Excess (ek'ses):
Immoderation as a consequence of going beyond sufficient or permitted limits

:hv20-smilie81:I basically agree with what you are saying here. But if we learned anything from the HV20 it's this...that downconversion from a higher pixel count can look so much better. I know it's not film...but I love the way film, downconverted, looks when shown on the Web in movie trailers etc. A 5k Epic might be overkill to some...but I'm lovin the fact that the option is still there....though I'd love it better when I could afford it.

threadhanger

2008 April 15th, 11:11

More resolution would be nice and so would more color space (although I think black and white even on the HV20 looks pretty future proof).

I think 3D is more interesting. I posted a thread the other day about someone mounting two HV30's on a platfrom for stereoscopic work. How much resolution does that scenario give you?? I call that thinking outside the box.

If I had a second HV20 , order some special 3d glasses, of which there are several types, and the computing power to render 60i to 60p, I think that would be just as visually stimulating as 3k.

3D>3K

kafeero

2008 April 15th, 18:03

The price is pretty decent, considering the following.
What we are looking at is a camera (RED scarlet) that can do 3K at $3000.
This is around the price of a Canon xh a1 (which does 1080p).

Though 3K might be overkill, it gives more people an opportunity to create a movie and get the most out of a film transfer or theatrical release.

BTW The accessories do add up to a lot of money.

Ian-T

2008 April 15th, 18:26

I basically agree with what you are saying here. But if we learned anything from the HV20 it's this...that downconversion from a higher pixel count can look so much better. I know it's not film...but I love the way film, downconverted, looks when shown on the Web in movie trailers etc. A 5k Epic might be overkill to some...but I'm lovin the fact that the option is still there....though I'd love it better when I could afford it.
:hv20-smilie15:

Mal

2008 April 15th, 18:28

...that downconversion from a higher pixel count can look so much better.

Yeah, that IS a good point.

Although, I think someone mentioned this in this thread already; a BIG chip with a FANTASTIC lower resolution might be something that would catch on really well, as opposed to these tiny chips with HUGE resolution.

The ideal cam for me would be one with a 35mm sensor, that shoots 4:4:4 SUPER HQ SD both 4:3 and 16:9, 720p and 1080p, and can accept Nikon or Canon glass WITH total control of aperture, focus, etc.

Ian-T

2008 April 15th, 19:13

It's been confirmed that the cam will have a built in LCD. for some reason a lot of folks assumed that would have to be an extra accessory...judging by all the photos so far.
http://www.reduser.net/forum/showpost.php?p=197054&postcount=20

Mal

2008 April 15th, 19:29

...subject to change...

:hv20-smilie81:

Kyleman

2008 April 15th, 20:50

...subject to change...

:hv20-smilie81:

I noticed that too. Man I hope this camera comes out. I'd love to buy one.

Goose

2008 April 16th, 02:26

Does anyone know if the cam has audio? If so i presume xlr input? Guessing no onboard mic...!

booggerg

2008 April 16th, 08:44

Does anyone know if the cam has audio? If so i presume xlr input? Guessing no onboard mic...!

No onboard LCD, no on board handles, so I would assume no on board mic as well.

cinemasteve87

2008 April 16th, 15:28

Your assumption is wrong.
http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=11851&page=2
Read Jannard's response.

booggerg

2008 April 16th, 17:58

on board audio <> on board mic.

Guarantee they will not include a mic in it...

kafeero

2008 April 16th, 20:26

No onboard LCD, no on board handles, so I would assume no on board mic as well.

Actually I think it does have an LCD.
Ted Schilowitz, Leader of the Rebellion for Red Digital Cinema mentioned that RED is working to ensure that the scarlet will be ready to shoot out of the box.
http://www.camcorderinfo.com/content/Red-Digital-Cinema-Unleashes-the-Scarlet-34906.htm

bamboopictures

2008 April 17th, 06:27

Its bye bye to HV20/30, Sony, Canon, and Panasonic when this pocket miracle hits the shelves in 2009. Maybe 35mm adapters days are numbered too.

http://www.red.com/nab/scarlet

alwyn

2008 April 17th, 08:23

Which bank should I rob to fund that thing? :hv20-smilie81:

Dana Love

2008 April 17th, 08:27

I agree. The "overhpyed, underdelivered" market category has just been dealt a crushing blow.

divide

2008 April 17th, 08:36

I don't agree. HV20/HV30/HF100 are 1000$, Scarlett is 3000$.
You will still need 35mm adapter with Scarlett, because of 2/3" AND small aperture.
Plus it really don't fit your pocket like HF100, and it's still way bigger than HV20/30.

Ian-T

2008 April 17th, 09:29

...well....in this case I think size does matter.....I welcome the added weight...especially with HD. And we are talking about under $3,000.00 for a cam that does more than others costing 3 or 4 times as much. Let's just hope it turns out to be everything they claim it to be.

Cpt.Comix

2008 April 17th, 09:35

2008 April 17th, 10:01

Category killer? Which category? HV20?
No, I don't think so. The small sector that buys HV20s for indi-filmmaking, yeah, those maybe; but the bulk (99% ?) of sub-$1000 buyers won't be effected by a cam costing 3 to 4 times more, and being MUCH more complicated in post-production.

An HVX200 killer maybe; but then again; Canon/Pana/Sony will come out with new stuff by the time Scarlet is out.

Also, this is already being discussed here:
http://www.hv20.com/showthread.php?t=9741

Lunchbox

2008 April 17th, 11:48

nolonemo

2008 April 17th, 12:02

divide

2008 April 17th, 12:52

Hm. 2/3" .... 2/3" ARE awesome, almost 16mm. Will give a very passable DOF.

2/3" AND small aperture

=concerning DOF, you lose the benefit of having a 2/3" sensor.

Erik Bien

2008 April 17th, 14:58

IMHO, right now Scarlet is comparable to RED One circa NAB 2006: a really interesting concept, but still too far from a completed product to evaluate. Yeah, a 3K RAW camera for $3K that shoots up to 120fps and can be controlled via WiFi link sounds really cool, and I might want one. But since we haven't seen a working prototype or even a single test frame I'm not pulling out my checkbook just yet ...

notlad

2008 April 17th, 19:16

I think Scarlet will be a big hit with independent low budget filmmakers but there will still be a huge market for the HV30 in the consumer market for personal videos.

If Scarlet is like Red then it will be an awesome but complicated tool that is not neccesarily user friendly. I don't see it taking the place of the family camcorder.

DaFireMedic

2008 April 17th, 20:50

At nearly 4 times the cost of the HV30, they really aren't even in the same category. At $3000, this will be a prosumer camcorder. The HV30 is a consumer camcorder. There will be a few serious hobbyists that will go for it, but it will not touch the majority of the HV30's core market. And as has been mentioned, the large companies still have a few generations of camcorders yet to release before the Scarlet ever makes it to market.

It looks fantastic, and I'll consider buying one if it turns out to be all that its cracked up to be, but thats a BIG "if"........

booggerg

2008 April 17th, 20:51

Its bye bye to HV20/30, Sony, Canon, and Panasonic when this pocket miracle hits the shelves in 2009. Maybe 35mm adapters days are numbered too.

http://www.red.com/nab/scarlet

Why are the DOF adapter's days numbered? This camera has a tiny sensor compared to the 35mm frame.. I'm using my caps lock loosely here because this sensor is TINY!

2/3" is not 16mm film size.. not even close.

markone

2008 April 18th, 01:36

I going to hold off on getting excited, and not drink the Scarlet kool-aid just yet... there are too many variables, what do you record to, compatible software, fast enough computer to edit the 3K stuf with, current 2k digital intermediates tax even the fastest computer and require expensive dedicated hardware... Is it a cool concept, yea... is it practical for most, no.. It will be interesting to see how this plays out.

Mark Carey
www.markoneHD.com

AtomicEagle

2008 April 18th, 01:39

I was in the NAB show seeing them in person. Let me just say, their need some expert to enhance their product design. All the RED ONE cams are bulky looking, boxy, looks like glueing metal scarp together. Not sexy at all. Obviously, none of them are very portable compared to HV20/30.

RED prototypes always look a little goofy, but I really dig the look of the finished models. Perhaps not sexy, but when all geared up, they look like a killer robot from outerspace....and who doesn't like that? Plus, if you have the resources to shoot and deal with RAW, then they'll blow any camera available out of the water.

ForwardLooker

2008 April 18th, 05:56

Its bye bye to HV20/30, Sony, Canon, and Panasonic when this pocket miracle hits the shelves in 2009. Maybe 35mm adapters days are numbered too.
http://www.red.com/nab/scarlet

I don't think HV20/30 sales will be affected that much by the release of scarlet, its not only idie's that buy them. Ted Schilowitz said in a NAB interview that soccer mums would even consider the scarlet, spending $3000 to film jimmy run round a film sounds abit much to me unless your rich so i'm not to sure...

I definetly want a scarlet will the latest stated specs and i will be using it with my 35mm Adapter, 2/3 is no way near the DOF of 35mm as so many people have mentioned..I will also be keeping my hv20 as a second cam.

booggerg

2008 April 18th, 08:56

Comparing the HV20 sensor to the Red Scarlett's sensor.. Not that much larger.

HV20: 1/2.7
Red: 2/3

http://www.dpreview.com/Learn/Articles/Glossary/Camera_System/images/ccdsizes.gif

texasmfp

2008 April 18th, 21:51

Red Promised the Red One at $17.5K and they did it. It took 2 years, but they kept their promise. I absolutely believe that they will keep it at under $3K. I also believe, now that they have put the Red One out there and have the production details worked out, and have gone through 15 firmware revisions that they will be ready in less than a year with the Scarlet.

Eugenia is right. Don't judge Red by what they claim the Scarlet is going to be capable of, judge the piss poor offerings from the major players. At NAB, Canon's big cam announcements were 2 new versions of the H1. But if you listen to the details of what was changed, they were on the order of simply fixing to the HD-SDI output that Canon had already incorporated into the G1's HD-SDI a year earlier.

Why isn't anybody talking about variable frame rates from 1-120 fps? HELLO, I SAID VARIABLE FRAME RATES from 1-120! What products from Sony, Canon, PAnny, or JVC are capabale of that? And more importantly, is the price for those cams closer to a home mortgage or to a Chrosziel matte box (like the Scarlet will be).

Moore's Law is just starting to come into the video industry and people will be shocked over what is coming within the next 2-3 years. People are going to be loathing purchasing an H1 for $10K within a year. The HV20 at $600 is a great deal. Definitely ahead of the Moore's Law curve compared to Canon's over-priced, and as someone said, under-delivered pro products.

notlad

2008 April 18th, 23:09

TexasMFP,

You are correct that the RED folks kept their word about the $17,500 price promise. However I noticed that the way they may be getting out of that in the future is by announcing the next gen RED camera which is 5k resolution and will cost double the RED price. Even at that it is a bargain though compared to other high end HD cameras.

2008 April 19th, 04:04

Red Promised the Red One at $17.5K and they did it. It took 2 years, but they kept their promise.

Yeah, sort of.
Don't forget that the original "promise" included the LCD and the rails, and whatnot. There's a reason why we got a $2500 credit for being under reservation #1000.
The cam's price, in effect, did actually go from $17500 to $20000 from what originally was "promised", but in order to save face, they simply stripped some items out, left the price at $17500 and gave the first 1000 a $2500 credit.

This is not a small issue, really; just that it is often forgotten.

Their marketing ability and style is just way too slick and slimy for my liking, no matter how good the cam may or may not be...

Goose

2008 April 19th, 04:58

Mal you seem bitter...

when do you get your REd one?

lordtangent

2008 April 19th, 05:00

Hey everyone.

I'm totally with texasmfp and Eugenia on this one. It's not about where Red is, it's more about how far behind everyone else is. And for a certain segment of the Market, Reds approach (RAW capture, more post intensive work flow) is absolutely the correct one.

I was at NAB. I saw the 4k demo at the Red booth. Red projected 4K RED One acquired material on a 4K projector in a little mini-theater at the back of the booth. "The Man" Jim Jannard himself introduced the demo (at least for my group). The footage was amazing. I did notice some "video-y" looking stuff, but it could have been from the projector, or even just the fact that the images were so clean it just didn't have some of the artifacts film normally does. Anyway, the quality spoke for itself. The Red One is definitely a good usable camera.

For everyone here knocking Red or Scarlet you need to put your thinking cap on and mull over the actual numbers. The era of "Red wont be able to do that" are long past. And even if Scarlet IS a little late (no reason to believe it will be, since they have the experience of the Red One to build on) no-one else in the industry is even planning anything similar. There are products that overlap in certain areas. For example, all the d-cinema style cameras are single chip of some type... some vendors are shooting raw, some use wavelets for compression. But NONE of them combine all the features and are as economical as the Red offerings. And my guess is that if Red sticks to any commitment regarding Scarlet it'll be the $3k pricing, even if it means they have to be "late" with it. That still makes Scarlet very exciting because, really, based on what I saw at NAB no body else is even in the race yet. Not only that, none of them seem the "get it". Their mind-sets are not even positioned to imagine a world of "unleashed" cameras. Red has a HUGE head start by getting a working Red One out.

Scarlet is what a lot of us have been withing for. Basically something like the "HV20 Unleashed", only she's 3k. With a 3k single chip you'll be able to get great oversampled 2k and 1080p. Some people are bummed out that it's only 2/3" sensor. Hey, let's not got too greedy. 2/3" with a decent lens to boot... that's a a steal in my book. Even the fact that the lens is fixed is not a big deal since it's fast and has a decent zoom range.

My brother and I spent a lot of time over at the Panasonic booth listening to one of their reps knock Red. One of the funniest things he said was something to the effect of: "There seems to be a sentiment that there is a conspiracy between the camera manufactures to hold things back and only feed out features one at a time. Well, that isn't true. We make the best cameras we can and we test them to make sure they are rock solid and we ship them out." Really? Then how do they explain Red leapfrogging them? Surely with their resources they could have easily produced something like the Red One before Red did. (4:4:4, true variable frame-rates, 4k, etc) Yet they didn't... And when you talk about outfits like Canon who even fab their own chips, it really makes me wonder...

anyway...It was funny how everything that came out of his mouth was FUD or half truths. (either that or he has no clue about what the Red One can do, and is already doing) His favorite knock was something to the effect of how "cumbersome" or "convoluted" the workflow on the Red One is, or how long the conform time is. Well, yes, if you look at that from the half truth sort of way he presented it (most of the people in the crowd seemed to) then there is a little bit of an argument there. But the thing is, his argument totally ignores "Moores Law" and the fact that the Red One isn't even in the same market segment as the cameras he was comparing it to. (HVX200, etc) Panasonic makes some high-end ENG and studio cams also but nothing like a Digital Cinema cam, which is what the Red is marketed as. Yet he wasn't even comparing the Red One to those! Interestingly, only Panasonics very top of the line camera can even do 4:4:4, and it can't record it natively. It must be tethered to a dual-link SDI capture station. So... whose workflow is cumbersome? Comparing apples to apples, that guys arguments were all easy to refute. But he didn't seem in the the mood to compare apples to apples.

I mentioned the Scarlet to him, and if he felt that might impact the market for Panasonics prosumer and low-end pro cameras and he still couldn't seem to put two and two together. Basically that Red is changing the rules of the game with economical RAW capture. They are "unleashing" the camera. And due to "Moores Law" things are only going to scale to favor their approach.

Red sells more than just hype. Their cameras actually do work. How they stack up against other cameras, quality-wise, is an area of active debate. But the bottom line is, when compared to cameras in the same price range the Red One does well. When compared to cameras of similar specifications (which all cost more) the Red One does pretty well also. It is a good value.

But at $3k the Scarlet will be a FANTASTIC value. And as far as I saw at NAB (I was there all four days and saw all the cameras), you'll only be able to get that kind of value from Red next year.

Erik Bien

2008 April 19th, 23:07

Preach it, LT!

I too saw the footage projected at 4K: flippin' gorgeous.

I looked through the EVFs of the Thompson Viper, Dalsa Origin, Sony F23, and RED. The only words I can find for RED's viewfinder are "pure sex." Even though the camera is doing a quick-n-dirty de-bayer and spitting out REC709 at 720p for monitoring (so far degraded from the 4K REDCODE RAW it's actually shooting it's more akin to a video tap on a film camera) it was the biggest, brightest, most detailed picture I've ever seen in an EVF.

I also went to the "RED workflow" event, where Mike Seymour from fxphd (http://www.fxphd.com/) showed us some examples of the amazing flexibility you have in post working with RAW files, and Tom Burns of Technicolor gave an overview of how his company is working with REDCODE in an old-school, film-centric workflow -- not "almost working," or "soon to be working," but working, right now.

Sure, this week you need some borderline arcane know-how, a pretty bitchin' octo-mac and a fair bit of patience if you insist on staying "4K all the way," but since both the software and the computers it runs on are only getting faster, in my opinion that's a bad reason to bury your head in the sand about this technology.

Film cameras are great. Plenty of video cameras are too. But RED cameras are a whole new species, with more DNA from a DSLR than from any preceding motion picture camera.

You may mock them or detest their "viral cool kids" marketing (which, by the way, seems to be working: AFAIK RED's never spent a dime on 'traditional' advertising, but you now see REDs featured in ads for rental/service companies in American Cinematographer and the like, and I must've seen twenty REDs outside the RED booth at NAB, they were unquestionably the "mannequin of choice" on which cine accessory manufacturers were displaying their hottest new wares).

My friend whose fully-kitted-out RED One will probably top $60K, however, still considers it a bargain (I guess that's what spending 9Gs a week to rent Varicams and CineAltas will do to you). :hv20-smilie84:

(Oh, and by the way, Mal: I think I should've bet you that hypothetical beer that he'd have #1880 by NAB '08: the 'Your camera is ready to ship' e-mail arrived while we were attending the show!) :hv20-smilie70:

Eugenia Loli-Queru

2008 April 20th, 02:11

lordtangent, Erik, texasmfp, well said! Even if the Scarlet is not out yet, and it won't be for a while, the point is, the rest of the camera companies are just in the middle ages. The indie filmmaker community are longing for such a product for years now, and now it's here.

RED has delivered the Red One, and it will deliver the Scarlet. Even if it might be late, the others would still be playing catch up, so it's obvious that Red has the advantage here. The point is, not their 3k or their 5k of resolution, but the changes these cameras will bring to the industry. That's the big deal.

Goose

2008 April 20th, 08:56

I for one will be looking to buy Scarlet. Now all I need is native 3k redcode support in Vegas...

scarlett

2008 April 20th, 22:43

I just bought it too. Poor HV20. They'll have to pry it from my cold dead hands.

Here check it out.

www.scarletuser.net

This is up to the minute - released TODAY!:hv20-smilie81:

Is there anywhere to get minute-by-minute updates? CamcorderInfo.com takes too long to post there stuff.

Dylan

lordtangent

2008 April 20th, 22:46

By the time the Scarlet ships, Red will have finally released a VFW Redcode codec and/or the Redcode SDK, so native support in Vegas might be less of a pipedream than it seems like today. Also, Adobe is working on CinemaDNG and Cineform has Cineform RAW already working. So by then there will be plenty of options.

As of today, Cineforms solution is definitely the most mature. I saw them at NAB playing back 4k RAW in real-time on the Premiere timeline. That was WITH their "Active Metadata" which allows for LUTs to be applied in real-time independent of the NLE. (It's handled by the codec and uses Iridas ".look" format LUTs) It's a very slick solution. You can read more about it here:

http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=12120

lordtangent

2008 April 21st, 05:55

Here's a scathing user experience of the Red posted on the Sony Vegas forum, I personally would be wary of plunking down $3k or whatever on the Scarlet until there was a solid body of feedback from the field.
http://www.sonycreativesoftware.com/forums/ShowMessage.asp?MessageID=588653&Replies=11

It just sounds like this guy and the crew don't know how to use the camera or didn't test properly. And technically, the firmware is still a work in progress. They were basically working with a "beta" product.

I think in some ways Red might have hurt themselves by releasing the camera as a "beta" since people in the film business aren't used to the concept. You can tell them a thousand times "This is still a work in progress" "Not safe for production work" Use at your own risk" and they don't hear it. Or maybe their vendor failed to mention any of that to them?

Still, there are lots of other people don't have any of the problems this guys describes and they get along with the camera just fine. So it's already in a usable state. You just have to know what you are doing and maybe be a little more familiar with the cam than most. (which the guy that made that post obviously wasn't) Red released the camera in "Beta" for the people who are not put off by that. Still, a risky move since then you have guys like the poster in the linked article who don't do their homework, then run around spreading FUD.

As for the Scarlet, if Red can deliver it when they say they will, with the features in the announcement and at the $3000 price, I think they will have a real winner. It's intended to be a "Pro" camera and not "Presumer" which means real manual controls. I'm a serious hobby photographer myself, so I'm used to having full manual control and good "program" modes with my DSLRs. I've grown accustomed to that level of control. The HV20 is a little annoying in the way it hides that stuff under menus etc. It's very "consumer" and crippled feeling to me as a result. Scarlet, being a "Professional camera" should expose that stuff better, which will be nice. That feature alone is worth some extra $$!

And for everyone making a big deal about how heavy 3K is, don't forget about Moores Law. 3K is really not that big a deal. I've been working on 2k 10 bit film images on desktop machines since the Classic Macintosh days (68k CPUs, before Pentium and Power PCs!). It worked fine then. CPUs are hundreds of times faster now and only getting faster still. Plus with a wavelet based file format (Redcode or Cineform RAW), you don't even need to work at full-res to work directly from the native media since you can have the computer just decode the resolution you need. For final render you can switch up to full res. Who cares if the final render takes a while... by then you will have put so many man-hours into the product a few machine hours waiting for the final render compared to the render time from some "video" format is no big deal. (IMHO at least) The Red One and the Scarlet are not traditional "video" cameras in that respect. They are Digital Cinema cameras. The assumption is the images that come from them will be more highly crafted than stuff from a "video" camera. You have to have the right expectation. OK... so it took a little longer to render. Big deal. You get what you pay for. No (regular) video camera is going to give you 4:4:4 at 12 bits.

The Scarlet really isn't "3k". It's a single chip camera with 3k photo-sites. As far as raw data in concerned (no pun intended) you are only talking about a single 3k x 12 bit image channel. And it is wavelet compressed. If anything the issue is being CPU bound by having to decode and debayer the images in software. It's not an issue of the images being "too big". But see my point above. CPU power isn't a rare commodity these days.

The Scarlet is not going to impact the HV20 market much except for guys like myself who only us an HV20 because the HVX200 and EX1 seem too expensive for what they provide. There is a huge jump in price but the actual qaulity improvement doesn't seem equal to the price jump. As someone said recently (I can't remember who it was so pardon me for not quoting and only paraphrasing) The HV20/30 are way ahead of the curve on price/performance. Canon almost made them TOO good.

For the money I save by using an HV20 I can get a lot of other important stuff. Like lighting gear! You can't have a picture without light! The slight hit in "image quality" I can easily make up for with my superior lighting.

If Scarlet delivers on the promises, the value of the product will be at a place where I would feel like I was getting my $3000 worth. Naturally, it would be nicer if it had a faster lens and even a larger sensor. But even if it is just an f 2.8 lens and 2/3" sensor it's still a great deal.

Of course, one year is along time and even though NONE of the other companies I saw at NAB seemed to be interested in "down marketing" the DCinema stuff the way Red is, there are certain players that could certainly scoop them if they really wanted to. For example Canon. They makes their own sensors and lenses. If Canon targeted the Scarlets specs and one-upped them in some way... say, for example with the addition of a better lens (canon makes lenses after all!), well then I think Canon could easily steal Reds thunder. But I just don't see that happening based on where their heads are. (I mean, based on what I saw at NAB.)

I think the approach RED is taking is "obviously" right. (deep RAW capture, I-Frame only encoding, wavelets, etc) But it's going to take the Japanese companies a long time to come around to it. And they will certainly never do it on a consumer level product. They probably would never even do it on a Prosumer level product. Some other camera companies are doing bits and pieces but none are putting everything together at a GOOD PRICE they way Red is.

Red are pioneers in that respect and are going to take a lot of arrows. But Jim Jannard has super deep pockets and as far as I know the company is profitable from the Red One, so I don't see them flaming out anytime soon. They are going to push though and get Scarlet out. And at the very least it will set the bar for what one type of camera CAN be. And as "Moores Law" catches up with it (it's VERY close right now) the obviousness of the choices they've made will become apparent to everyone else. But by then Red will have a huge lead in experience and maybe even market share.

More than any of the concerns other people have, my biggest question is: How are they even going to MAKE the Scarlets fast enough? I'm not concerned about all these "FUDdy" things others seem to care about. Just whose gonna build these things for Red at the rate I think they will need to be built just to keep up with demand? It's not like they have the manufacturing might of Sony or Canon. They already outsource the fabrication of most of the Red One components to like Korea or something, but I imagine the demand for the Scarlet being massive by comparison. Jim Jannard could easily afford to have a factory built for it I guess. (He's worth like 2 billion) But even still he's probably going to have to start building it now!

anthonyt

2008 April 21st, 09:24

wow bomb cam a must to have !

Alsone

2008 April 22nd, 18:57

Seems this is just what's needed to kick the other manufacturers out of giving consumers cut down products both in features and performance.

Only 2 bad things I can see are:

1. the 8x zoom. Simply not enough - 20x like on XH-A1 is essential for any sports usage

2. the body shape - I can't see it handling well if they continue to pursue an upright form factor.

ForwardLooker

2008 April 22nd, 19:42

Can anyone please explain to me why RED have gone for a f2.8 lens? is that sufficient?

Erik Bien

2008 April 22nd, 20:15

Well, considering the cost/size/specs of other 2/3" zooms (http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/shop/1886/Lenses_2_3_Lenses.html), I don't think a constant T2.8 throughout the zoom range (http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=12358) is anything to complain about!

CycleWriter

2008 April 22nd, 21:01

Zacatac

2008 April 22nd, 21:20

i don't think all you are getting the big pictures.... a res size at least two times as big as the hv20's... yes it has a 2/3 sensor... thats hell more DOF than the hv20...who cares if its not the same fracking dof as 35mm film... its 3k for $3k...

about its bulkiness, yes they kinda lied about it being pocket sized... butits built to be professional... on rails.... why do you need it streamlined when its rails... pointless

Red also stated, specs configuration and price can and will change

ForwardLooker

2008 April 22nd, 21:51

calm down zacatac....i think we do get the big pictures.
Its great if your happy with the dof of a 2/3 sensor BUT some of us still want a more filmic 35mm look.

Erik Bien

2008 April 22nd, 22:12

I dunno, I'm thinking if 2/3" is good enough for Lucas (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0121766/technical) and Fincher (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0443706/technical), I might be able to lower myself ... :hv20-smilie84:

lordtangent

2008 April 22nd, 22:59

And you can just add a 35mm adapter if 2/3 isn't good enough for you.

Looking at the feature set of the Scarlet, it's clear they compromised in certain areas specifically to keep the cost reasonable. Sure, they could put like an f1.2 lens on it, or a bigger sensor, but then "3k for $3k" would be hopeless.

Zacatac

2008 April 23rd, 12:01

calm down zacatac....i think we do get the big pictures.
Its great if your happy with the dof of a 2/3 sensor BUT some of us still want a more filmic 35mm look.

don't worry, im not angered... just stating the point...

i love my 35mm dof... why else would i own the redrok bundle?

im just stating... theres a point when your asking too much.... the scarlet is offering revolutionary things, for REVOLUTIONARY prices...

and to adda an adapter... there is no adapter made for 3k resolution...!!! redrock would show so much grain...red would need to release its own adapter to get anything... plus... using an adapter would reduce resolution... no nikon lens are made for a 2/3 sensor.... youd be losng so much...

Alsone

2008 April 24th, 04:39

the scarlet is offering revolutionary things, for REVOLUTIONARY prices...

Yup but when you read tests of the Red One, linked here its fair to say its not entirely problem free:

Reports of overheating, codec problems etc etc.

http://provideocoalition.com/index.php/awilt/story/three_three_letter_cameras_ex1_f23_red/

http://provideocoalition.com/images/uploads/garden-detail.jpg

Red One vs Sony F23 from that article (Sony has some in cam sharpening applied apparently).

I'm sure they will get them right, but after what I've read, I would personally have reservations of diving right in at the start anyway with Scarlett. My view is let it settle in, get the bugs ironed out then consider.

ForwardLooker

2008 April 24th, 05:20

im just stating... theres a point when your asking too much.... the scarlet is offering revolutionary things, for REVOLUTIONARY prices...

i don't remember asking for anything :hv20-smilie51:........ what you have pointed out is was what we all agree on anyway, not sure where you think we dont get the point on scarlet - you must think we are highly stupid or somthing :hv20-smilie84:

All I've said is that I want to use a 35mm adapter with it, i have never criticized scarlet in any way...the only thing i've asked is wether f2.8 is suffcient but thats because i have a very limited knowledge on the technical aspects on lenses for 2/3 sensors.
I think a 2/3 sensor is amazing!!! I have also seen what type of DOF 2/3 produce so thats all i have commented on. Until i have a 35mm camera of some sort, it doesnt matter what cam I have i will try and emulate the 35mm look cus thats MY preference.

Zacatac

2008 April 24th, 08:17

yeah... i was just giving a general rant... on people wanting to use still lenses interchangable on the scarlet.. which would be impossible...

also Alsone... Jim stated, because of the build problems with red one, when scarlet is realeased... it will be compeltely done in upgrades... besides ungrades on sensors way in the future...

Alsone

2008 April 24th, 10:23

Upgrades? - not sure exactly what you mean by this.

Zacatac

2008 April 24th, 10:53

Alsone

2008 April 26th, 19:37

Jim said botht the Epic 5k and Scarlet 3k will be easily upgradeable if they come out with a new sensor in late 2009 and onward... besides that... the camera will be completely done... no new builds... it software is complete... (well to cover myself, maybe a firmware upgrade... but heycanon does that to ON SOME CAMERAS... Hatred towards no hv20 firmware update!)

so bascally, scarlet will be an hv20, but so much better...but in the way its a completely done camera... for way cheap

So basically it might be like the One is allegedly at the moment then, problematic with each problem solved by upgrades? Sounds like a good reason to wait. Only encouraging bit of what you said is the bit about the sensor, a free upgrade to a later superior sensor is always going to be welcome.

Zacatac

2008 April 26th, 20:13

No, once it comes out... there will be no fiddling with different build types as RED ONE did... this will be compelte... nothing left to add, audio and everything will work fine from day 1

Alsone

2008 April 28th, 09:05

No, once it comes out... there will be no fiddling with different build types as RED ONE did... this will be compelte... nothing left to add, audio and everything will work fine from day 1

I hope so but no offense Zac if I sound sceptical after the problems allagedly experienced by Red One users. Its as I said above, I'm sure it will be a great camera when the bugs (if any) are ironed out.

Mal

2008 April 28th, 09:18

No, once it comes out... there will be no fiddling with different build types as RED ONE did... this will be compelte... nothing left to add, audio and everything will work fine from day 1

THAT is funny: you forgot the SMILEY: :hv20-smilie81:

Let's get real folks, the RED cam (ONE or SCARLET) is (will) NOT revolutionizing anything. If one hasn't the talent, actors, audio pros, killer-script, Vitamin "C" (or Vitamin "B" in German), projects filmed with RED ONE will NOT differ than if they were filmed with 16mm or any other cam, other than having better resolution.

A great cam a good film not make...

:hv20-smilie43:

Duke

2008 April 29th, 22:15

And in addition, a cheap camera can make a good movie if you have a good script, good talent, good editer, a good director and a vision. :hv20-smilie77:

For example, 28 days is a good movie on a cheap camera.

The trick is to know the limitations of the cheap camera, the work-arounds, plan ahead and take your time.

A good saying is, a film can be cheap, quick or good, but you can only have two out of three. Which two are you going to choose?

Duke

Ian-T

2008 April 29th, 22:38

Cheap and good for me. :)
Forget Red and Scarlet...I want to see someone complete a "good" feature on the HV20/30.

Imagine Scarlet came out last week and most of us ran out to buy it. Those of us who aint doin Suga Honey Ice Tea today would still be doing nothing with this cam tomorrow.

threadhanger

2008 April 29th, 22:42

I agree with Mal. The camera isn't going to make a great movie/video by itself. It might make fruit bowl and "grass blowing in the wind" footage look better though.

From all the 100's of clips I've download and watched on Vimeo, Youtube, and on here, and from all kinds of cameras, I'd say the three most important attributes to a good clip are:

1. Interesting content
2. Good music
3. Good editing

If it's an actual indie film I'd put good acting and an interesting script idea near the top.

The camera most of us need is here now. It's what this forum is based on.

Braceface

2008 April 30th, 09:31

I'm pretty excited about the Red products. they are the stuff of legend.

Dana Love

2008 April 30th, 11:37

they are the stuff of legend.

So is the tooth fairy.

Alsone

2008 April 30th, 14:52

Unfortunately the Indy's don't like the idea of sharing and over on the red user forums are seeking to restrict the camera to an extremely short wide angle fixed zoom, possibly as little as 80mm at the long end.

I'm fighting our corner though. :)

Erik Bien

2008 April 30th, 14:57

Uh, don't be too quick to assume we're on the same team, Alsone!

I'd definitely prefer something wide and fast in small camera with a fixed lens. Optically good tele-extenders are smaller/easier/cheaper than wide-angle adapters.

CycleWriter

2008 April 30th, 15:02

I'm fighting our corner though. :)

"Our corner?" I thought we were all HV20/30 users.:hv20-smilie84:

Zacatac

2008 April 30th, 15:27

alright.... true to all of the above... saying story is what matters...

and i know.... im at a point where im making professional films... (currently only a trailer to back up that point)...

So for me Scarlet won't be what i did with my HV20, let it sit and use a little bit... Scarlet will be going from short to short... making the great story look awesome...

spideralex90

2008 August 27th, 00:08

Dr. Benway

2008 August 27th, 00:47

You hope that with them taking the extra time they are getting it right. What may prove most important is how future-proofed it will be, and therefore how long before it is easily superceded. Red's functionality and ease of use will also be crucial. Image quality better be stunning or it will die a quick, ignominious death.

How well built it is will prove a deciding factor for many the number of years of service a user can expect at this level is crucial, as opposed to our dinky consumer cams.

spideralex90

2008 August 27th, 10:26

Yeah, i'm hoping it will turn out well. Hopefully it will come with accessories, but knowing RED it won't. It's annoying that they advertise the body at a price, when in reality their products require other small things to add on. like the RED one really costs in the 20,000's for a basic package, but they tell you the camera costs 17,500. i just hate marketing schemes.

I guess only time will tell.

Erik Bien

2008 August 27th, 12:06

It's annoying that they advertise the body at a price, when in reality their products require other small things to add on. like the RED one really costs in the 20,000's for a basic package, but they tell you the camera costs 17,500. i just hate marketing schemes.

This is how all professional video equipment is sold: What do you think you get when you drop $45K+ (http://www.broadcaststore.com/store/model_detail.cfm?id=786914) on a Varicam? Body only, everything else is accessories!

Ian-T

2008 August 27th, 12:37

I dunno....but I always had the impression that ...from day one...red has emphasized that this cam would be a sort of pocket cam...that soccer moms could use. that tells me that accessories would not necessarily be needed to use this cam.

Erik Bien

2008 August 27th, 12:38

Yes, other than adding some CF card media, Scarlet is said to be "ready to shoot" out of the box (so in that regard, more like a "pro-sumer" camera).

Ian-T

2008 August 27th, 12:44

Ok. But looking at its big bro...and what it takes to run it....It's no wonder folks are skeptical. Man...2009 can't come quick enough....

acoelho1

2008 August 27th, 13:21

Red has stated this will be a professional camera with all the bells and whistles. The camera is set to be around 3k but Jim stated you could spend 3 times that on accesories. Now if the Red One is any indiction, the Scarlet should meet everyone's expectation and probably beyond.

booggerg

2008 August 27th, 13:44

I think Nikon's D90 announcement just lowered the stock on the Scarlet..

Just think.. the D90 is the first of its kind to utilize large sensor for video.. the technology will soon trickle down to pro-sumer camcorders with pro audio and proper form factor..

Why spend $3,000 on a 2/3" camera when there're much better things right around the corner?

Erik Bien

2008 August 27th, 14:04

Why spend $3,000 on a 2/3" camera when there're much better things right around the corner?

1. RAW files
2. higher frame rates
3. higher bit rates (less compression)
4. larger frame sizes (1280x720 vs. ~3072x1728)
5. real audio

I'm sure I can come up with more ...

So far, the "video features in a DSLR package" cameras are kind of like talking dogs: it isn't that they do it well, but that they can do it at all that's remarkable.

spideralex90

2008 August 27th, 14:21

Mosin-$4L

2008 August 27th, 14:31

So far, the "video features in a DSLR package" cameras are kind of like talking dogs: it isn't that they do it well, but that they can do it at all that's remarkable.

Very well put

booggerg

2008 August 27th, 14:38

1. RAW files
2. higher frame rates
3. higher bit rates (less compression)
4. larger frame sizes (1280x720 vs. ~3072x1728)
5. real audio

I'm sure I can come up with more ...

So far, the "video features in a DSLR package" cameras are kind of like talking dogs: it isn't that they do it well, but that they can do it at all that's remarkable.

but from the perspective of indie filmmakers who shots with DOF adapters and who are excited about Scarlet, a DSLR type sensor shooting video is capable of much narrower DOF than scarlet. I'm not compring the D90 directly to Scarlet but the D90 is an indication of where the technology is and we can all interpolate where it'll be as it relates to future equipment for digital film making.

D90 = $1300 w/ a decent quality zoom lens. From that price we can also estimate of what a comparable video camera with similar sensor would cost

spideralex90

2008 August 27th, 14:44

I would like to play with a D90 first. it sounds cool though, but does it have frame rates and such? there are too many things that could be missing. It's a cool idea though.

acoelho1

2008 August 27th, 15:06

I understand that basically everyone says a base price that only comes witht he camera body. But it's annoying. i dunno, maybe i'm just acting how everyone else did when the red one came out, it seemed too good to be true. sort of like L computers. (if anyone remembers Lieberman computers)

It is too good to be true. Find me another camera package at 30k that the Red One can provide. The purpose of the Red One is to provide film quality footage in a digital package at a more affordable price. When Steven Soderbergh and Peter Jackson bought multiple Red Ones...what does that tell you about this camera. Its special.

94strings

2008 August 27th, 16:11

With every new spec or render that Red gives us, we are just getting a "peak" into the true camera. The "Epic" camera for instance is 3 generations ahead of what Red has released in the latest renders. I think something special is coming towards us in Scarlet. Jim and company are the ultimate DIY'ers out there. They are competing with the Big Boy companies to allow us little guys a chance to own a digital cinema camera for $3,000. We are blessed by their dream. -I'm not worried.

spideralex90

2008 August 27th, 18:14

ForwardLooker

2008 August 27th, 18:47

Is anyone getting worried about this camera? It looks great, but i have this itch in the back of my head that it's not going to be what it's cracked up to be. Don't get me wrong i hope it's great, but i dunno.

What are you worried about? have you seen footage from the RED ONE and did you like it?

Scarlet is going to have better dynamic range than the current RED ONEs....

Plus RED are giving us a professional tool for $3k that can provide an image quality which will compare to cameras that cost over 100k!!!

Jim posted over at scarletuser.com :

" We will be very disappointed if there are not direct comparisons made between Sony 900-950- F23 footage and Scarlet.

Jim "

but from the perspective of indie filmmakers who shots with DOF adapters and who are excited about Scarlet, a DSLR type sensor shooting video is capable of much narrower DOF than scarlet. I'm not compring the D90 directly to Scarlet but the D90 is an indication of where the technology is and we can all interpolate where it'll be as it relates to future equipment for digital film making.

D90 = $1300 w/ a decent quality zoom lens. From that price we can also estimate of what a comparable video camera with similar sensor would cost.

I believe a dedicated team that engage the indie film making community which influences the finished product will always bring out a better product than the major camera companies.
If Nikon, Canon or Sony where to Bring out a comparable cam to Scarlet how much do you think it would cost?

Ian-T

2008 August 27th, 19:17

If Nikon, Canon or Sony where to Bring out a comparable cam to Scarlet how much do you think it would cost?Both your arms....legs....and your uncle Joe's.:hv20-smilie81:

Seriously....looking at the cost of some Nikon prime lens...none of us here would be able to touch those cams.

Erik Bien

2008 August 27th, 19:35

acoelho1

2008 August 27th, 19:47

Well, if you look at what Canon offers in the way of 2/3" HD zoom (http://www.canon.com/bctv/products/hj40x14b.html) lenses ... and what they cost (http://www.google.com/products?q=canon+HJ40X14B) ... :hv20-smilie119:

Now that's funny. Its going to be interesting to see how the majors respond since they are still pushing 1/3 sensors at a cost more then the Scarlet.

94strings

2008 August 28th, 05:42

What is shown in the most current renders of Scarlet is quite amazing when coupled with the announced specs. We know in the seven months left until release we will be stoked. Sony , Panasonic, Canon, etc. will be shocked.

booggerg

2008 August 29th, 13:43

I believe a dedicated team that engage the indie film making community which influences the finished product will always bring out a better product than the major camera companies.
If Nikon, Canon or Sony where to Bring out a comparable cam to Scarlet how much do you think it would cost?

Lack of funds for advanced research is also an hindrance to revolutionary products.

Let's go back in history and recall some revolutionary products for digital filmmakers from the major camera companies

Canon HV20
Canon XHA1
Panasonic HVX100
Panasonic HD Varicam
Sony Cinealta
Panasonic DVX100
Sony TRV900
Sony VX1000
Panasonic EZ1U
..

Again, what is it about the major camera corporations that they are out of touch with the filmmaking community? What about Scarlet? We haven't see a single one yet..

ForwardLooker

2008 August 29th, 14:46

Do you think RED have a lack of funding? do you know what type of interest you can make on $2 billion..

The fact that RED ONE is being used to make big screen features kinda tells me they have enough money for the research they want to do.

I know we haven't seen any imagery yet from Scarlet but RED is a dedicated team developing professional cinema tools.

i agree with you that those products in your list are great tools and I love my hv20 but I wouldn't say revolutionary.
In my eyes revolutionary is a product that seriously changes the path on an industry which I think the RED ONE has done.

In my list what stands out more?

Sony Cinealta - £58,750.00 2/3" HD
Panasonic HD Varicam - £27,000 2/3" HD
RED ONE - £9,000 S35
Scarlet - £1500 2/3" 3k

My feeling about the major companies is that they don't quite give you want you want in order for you to want more from them, RED asks you want you want and then sees what they can do about it. I'm pretty sure Canon, panasonic and sony are aware of people using prosumer cameras with 35mm adapters but do any of them provide a vertical and horizontal LCD image flip function..as far as i'm aware no. to me thats not being in touch.

acoelho1

2008 August 29th, 15:22

Lack of funds for advanced research is also an hindrance to revolutionary products.

Let's go back in history and recall some revolutionary products for digital filmmakers from the major camera companies

Canon HV20
Canon XHA1
Panasonic HVX100
Panasonic HD Varicam
Sony Cinealta
Panasonic DVX100
Sony TRV900
Sony VX1000
Panasonic EZ1U
..

Again, what is it about the major camera corporations that they are out of touch with the filmmaking community? What about Scarlet? We haven't see a single one yet..

I do agree that those cameras were revolutionary for what it provided to us indie filmmakers but how many companies have come around like Red Digital Cinema. The Red One has leaped frogged all those cameras you listed by a mile and when Steven Soderberg stated that he has been waiting for a camera like this all his life or when Peter Jackson buys 4 of them, then I think its special. Scarlet will offer more then any other camera in its price range and probably any under 10k that we have seen. Red's approach is a lot different then the companies you mentioned. For one, their sole purpose is profit motived while Red is truely trying to make the best digital camera within the price point.

Ian-T

2008 August 29th, 15:26

In my eyes revolutionary is a product that seriously changes the path on an industry which I think the RED ONE has done.
.Ha ha...i agree with you ...but tell that to Mal.:hv20-smilie64:

Mal

2008 August 29th, 15:51

...but tell that to Mal.

You know me too well! :)

I simply can't see that RED has changed any path to an industry.
There were digital cams that came before, and there's digital cams that are available during; and there will be digital cams that come after RED ONE.

There's no significant change.

No revolution....just excellent marketing and hype. Oh, and a GREAT cam also.

ForwardLooker

2008 August 29th, 16:36

Sony F23 - 2/3" HD $150,000.00

RED ONE - S35 4k $17,000

Scarlet - 2/3" 3k $3000

" We will be very disappointed if there are not direct comparisons made between Sony 900-950- F23 footage and Scarlet. Jim "

Thats quite significant to me...

Mal

2008 August 29th, 16:40

In theory, maybe. In practice, not so much.

The cost of cam rental is only a tiny cost of total production. Whether a cam costs $150000 or $17000 makes almost no difference, considering all the other bazillion things that one has to consider.

Mal

2008 August 29th, 16:43

I'd believe the REVOLUTION and other HYPE theories much more, if a considerable amount of movie productions were happening on RED ONE. I'm not seeing that though.

Sorry.

Although it is kind of cool to hang out with a billionaire on a forum, I'll concede that.

(On this forum, we only have a few pennies between us, but you know, I'm quite content with the productions I make, even if some I'm editing are still SD.)

spideralex90

2008 August 29th, 16:49

There's not much left to revolutionize, it's more of a revolution in prices as previously stated, and that such a small thing is able to be on par with film. so yes there were digital before, but not like this, everything before needed add on's like 35mm adapters and such, RED is how it is with no add ons.

Erik Bien

2008 August 29th, 17:01

I'd believe the REVOLUTION and other HYPE theories much more, if a considerable amount of movie productions were happening on RED ONE. I'm not seeing that though.

What, three Steven Soderbergh movies (Guerilla, The Argentine, The Informant), Neveldine & Taylor's Game, Nic Cage in Knowing, Michael Douglas in Peter Hyams' Beyond a Reasonable Doubt, Sean Penn in Malick's Tree of Life not enough for you? :hv20-smilie79:

spideralex90

2008 August 29th, 17:04

ForwardLooker

2008 August 29th, 17:04

mal,

I to only have a few pennies and is extremely content with my hv20 + 35mm adapter combo, to be honest I thought that, that would be my setup for life, the hv20 still amazes me with its image quality!
I just can't believe what specs RED are offering with Scarlet, speaking for my self I think I would be stupid to pass on it and its less than a Canon XH-A1.

I'm sorry if i'm coming across abit strong about this but i'm not sure why people would have negative or doubt full thoughts....the specs on paper are great and the potential is massive! when it comes out i'll happily post loads of test shots of my garden for you to see :hv20-smilie81:

booggerg

2008 August 29th, 17:34

First of all, I think Soderberg is overrated. Most of his movies suck big time. But that's besides the point..

I think one has to realize that there's a big group of users who don't really care for the 3K resolution of Scarlett. The general accepted rule is higher pixel density equals higher noise. Why sacrifice for higher noise for resolution that we don't need? Not all of our projects are destined for theatrical showing. 1080P would be the highest resolution that most of use would need.

The higher frame rate of the Scarlett is indeed attractive.

ForwardLooker

2008 August 29th, 17:45

The general accepted rule is higher pixel density equals higher noise.

I've never heard that before, do you have any info?

Mal

2008 August 29th, 18:13

over 40 films are being done with Red cams....

Exactly! My point.
Hardly REVOLUTIONIZING AN INDUSTRY... :hv20-smilie77:

Erik Bien

2008 August 29th, 18:15

The general accepted rule is higher pixel density equals higher noise.

Sorry, wrong again (http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?p=274064#post274064).

Erik Bien

2008 August 29th, 18:28

Exactly! My point.
Hardly REVOLUTIONIZING AN INDUSTRY... :hv20-smilie77:

Considering it is exactly one year to the day (http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=18225) from RED's first delivery of cameras into their first 25 customers' hands, this seems a tad bit premature to me ... :hv20-smilie84:

acoelho1

2008 August 29th, 20:39

So, you think 1080 is better then 3k.... this is the first time I've ever heard anyone say that and I hope that is not what you mean. People, the Red One has just come out and not everyone has received their camera yet. Hell, Peter Jackson bought 4 of them and you may not like Soderbergh but I think Traffic was pretty damn good and he knows a thing or two about cameras. If you don't think price is important when it comes to cameras then you must not work in the industry. Yes your right that a camera alone is one piece of the production but you have to admit, its a major piece.

Shadow_7

2008 August 29th, 21:00

The thing I like about the potential Scarlet is that the still images are larger than 1/3" sensor cams nearly twice the price. It also does raw / uncompressed recording. From what I've seen of the red one stills, every pixel counts.

While I will likely get an HV30 in the near future as my first video camera. I still think it's stills are a bit grainy. i.e. Metal looks like stone. Sky looks like it's full of tiny blue insects. The samples currently available for the Reds don't seem to suffer those attributes. Not that I have any personal experience with either yet.

Mal

2008 August 29th, 21:10

What, three Steven Soderbergh movies (Guerilla, The Argentine, The Informant), Neveldine & Taylor's Game, Nic Cage in Knowing, Michael Douglas in Peter Hyams' Beyond a Reasonable Doubt, Sean Penn in Malick's Tree of Life not enough for you? :hv20-smilie79:

<cough> <cough>...err, those are cool, but not really REVOLUTION territory! :)

Hey, I think it's a GREAT cam; it's the all the HYPE, and fancy talk that is off-putting to me, not what the cam can [and does] produce.
I just can't get myself to go all googoo gaga over it, or use ridiculous verbiage to describe it - that's all.

Duke

2008 August 29th, 21:13

So, you 1080 is better then 3k.... this is the first time I've ever heard anyone say that and I hope that is not what you mean. People, the Red One has just came out and not everyone has received their camera yet. Hell, Peter Jackson bought 4 of them and you may not like Soderbergh but I think Traffic was pretty damn good and he knows a thing or two about cameras. If you don't think price is important when it comes to cameras then you must not work in the industry. Yes your right that a camera alone is one piece of the production but you have to admit, its a major piece.

In actual fact, most big production companies rent their cameras, they don't buy them. In that regard he's right. Even a film camera, with film costs and lab fees, on a big production say $50 million and up, that's a small piece of the pie. And the Scarlett isn't outputting a 3k image. Comparing a 2k camera to a 2.2 or 2.4k isn't as much of a leap.

Where it really makes a difference is with the indies. But quoting $17,000 for a Red One isn't right either. Throw some lenses on top of that, some handles, a high def monitor, etc. A more realistic number is $34,000-$40,000. Don't get me wrong that's still a very good price.

When I was at the Cinegear Expo some Red One packages were renting for what I thought were some very good rates. But then you still need to take care of the work flow issues and that adds some to the price of operation.

The still developing work flow was the source of the issues raised by the Pros at Cinegear seminars. These were major motion picture directors, cinematographers, etc.

The fanboys need to realize that when other people are talking about your expectations, we aren't criticizing what has been done. I like the Red One. I like the idea of the Scarlett. I hope their both big successes and that the Scarlett makes sense for me to use later.

But trumpeting speculation as facts makes people more suspicious, rather than converts. Just give people facts while they wait. :hv20-smilie77: Oh, and even Jim says those renderings aren't accurate because he didn't want to tip off the competition.

Mal

2008 August 29th, 21:15

...this seems a tad bit premature to me ... :hv20-smilie84:

So how long do we have to wait for this REVOLUTION to manifest itself? :hv20-smilie81:

acoelho1

2008 August 29th, 21:36

In actual fact, most big production companies rent their cameras, they don't buy them. In that regard he's right. Even a film camera, with film costs and lab fees, on a big production say $50 million and up, that's a small piece of the pie. And it isn't outputting a 3k image. Comparing a 2k camera to a 2.2 or 2.4k isn't as much of a leap.

Where it really makes a difference is with the indies. But quoting $17,000 for a Red One isn't right either. Throw some lenses on top of that, some handles, a high def monitor, etc. A more realistic number is $34,000-$40,000. Don't get me wrong that's still a very good price.

When I was at the Cinegear Expo some Red One packages were renting for what I thought were some very good rates. But then you still need to take care of the work flow issues and that adds some to the price of operation.

The still developing work flow was the source of the issues raised by the Pros at Cinegear seminars. These were major motion picture directors, cinematographers, etc.

The fanboys need to realize that when other people are talking about your expectations, we aren't criticizing what has been done. I like the Red One. I like the idea of the Scarlett. I hope their both big successes and that the Scarlett makes sense for me to use later.

But trumpeting speculation as facts makes people more suspicious, rather than converts. Just give people facts while they wait. :hv20-smilie77:

Who is talking about making $50 million productions? These cameras are made for indie filmmakers. The Red One was built to give film quality footage in a digital package without the expense of film stock. Yes a basic Red One package will run around 30k but can you show me any other camera package that affordable for what it gives you. Also, 2.1 resolved resolution will be significantly better then 1080 in my opinion. It easy to dismiss arguments by calling people "fanboys" but if you don't like the Red One or don't think its a revolutionary camera, that's fine but I don't agree.

Erik Bien

2008 August 29th, 22:10

<cough> <cough>...err, those are cool, but not really REVOLUTION territory! :)

So how long do we have to wait for this REVOLUTION to manifest itself?

Okay, so if the metric isn't "how many 'A-list' features are being shot with it?" (which is what I got from your post #30), let me ask you:

When, in your estimation, does the revolution begin?

Here's what I see (sorry if this sounds too "fanboy" for anyone):

RED One has already lowered the price of entry for a digital cinema camera from "single-family home" to "new car" levels ... it isn't some finicky science project made in twos and threes in someone's garage, it's a real camera (no offense, Silicon Imaging and Vision Research) ... slap your favorite PL mount lens on it instead of some repackaged ENG lens with delusions of "DigiPrime" grandeur ... shoot to CF cards, not giant digi-mags ... edit from reference files immediately ... go non-destructively nuts with color grading ... 'telecine' to your favorite output codec on a lowly iMac ... or the opposite extreme, do a full-blown DI/conform in the high-luxe post facility of your choice and out to DCI/film print/BluRay/HD broadcast/you-name-it.

I wouldn't even know how to guesstimate how many commercials and music videos shot on RED worldwide have already been broadcast (my buddy in the Missouri stix is already into the double digits with RED commercials on-air, little more than a month after taking delivery). I'd bet that if you've watched much US TV in the last three months, you've seen something shot on RED, and certain other countries (like, oddly, Norway) seem to be adopting it even more quickly. I'll also bet you didn't notice it originated on a camera costing around a tenth the price of what such things are usually shot with.

Fanboy I might be, but I have to wonder just how far the naysayers are going to need to move the goalposts: "the digital revolution won't be complete until the last factory making film closes up shop," maybe? (Could be sooner than you think: Polaroid is ending instant film production (http://blog.wired.com/gadgets/2008/02/polaroid-ends-i.html) this year.)

Mal

2008 August 29th, 22:56

Funny how if you give praise for the RED ONE you are automatically a FANBOY;
and on the flip side if you don't subscribe 100% to the [overly] positive rhetoric, you are labeled NAYSAYER.

It's just not quite THAT much of a religious experience for me.

Duke

2008 August 30th, 00:41

Who is talking about making $50 million productions? These cameras are made for indie filmmakers.

Gee, didn't you just quote me as saying it's on the indie productions that it really makes a difference?

The Red One was built to give film quality footage in a digital package without the expense of film stock. Yes a basic Red One package will run around 30k but can you show me any other camera package that affordable for what it gives you.

A basic Red One package isn't enough to ship end product. Work flow, remember? You need more. I said before it was still a good deal, but if the camera is $17,000 and the lenses are $17,000, then you need handles, rails, HD monitor, etc. How did you get $30,000? I think $40k is more realisitic, but as I said it's still a good deal.

Also, 2.1 resolved resolution will be significantly better then 1080 in my opinion.

You have just said it WILL be. Show me some footage please. You believe it will be, you hope it will be, maybe even pray it will be. It's not a fact yet. I sincerly hope it will be. It's funny, on Scarletuser you admit to being a fanatic, but here you assert beliefs as though they were facts with no let up.

No one here is saying bad things about either camera, merely that it's a little early.

It easy to dismiss arguments by calling people "fanboys" but if you don't like the Red One or don't think its a revolutionary camera, that's fine but I don't agree.

It sounds like you take offense without really reading my posts because you're ignoring what I said.

I said repeatedly that I like the Red One. I said repeatedly that it's price point is a good deal. I even said repeatedly that I think the Scarlet is a good idea and I hope it's great and successful.

What I said was that if you assert things as true that you cant prove to be true your whole arguement/assertion becomes suspect.

If I repeatedly claimed repeatedly that the upcoming HV50 with HDMI direct capture will beat the pants off a Scarlet, and offered no comparative footage ever to back it up, it wouldn't be very believable would it? That's the position you're taking with the Scarlet now.

I believe this is what Mal is trying to say in a more abrupt manner about over hype of the products. I seem to recall Mal saying on more than one occasion that he likes the Red.

If you toned down the rah-rah a bit people would believe you more and you would benefit Red and Scarlet more in the long run.

Duke

acoelho1

2008 August 30th, 01:05

Duke...I'm not here to convince you regarding Red. The Red One to me is a revolutionary camera and guess what...I have a right to say that. Any camera you buy, there are needed accessories and post considerations. We can argue about Red One's footage but one thing we can't argue about is the price point, which is what makes it revolutionary. I challenge you to find another camera package that is equal to the Red One. As far as Scarlet is concerned, your right, there is no footage I can show you. However, the technology used on the Red One is same for the Scarlet and the Red One has delivered on its promises.

David

2008 August 30th, 01:32

I like the Red One. I like the idea of the Scarlett. I hope their both big successes and that the Scarlett makes sense for me to use later.

I said repeatedly that I like the Red One. I said repeatedly that it's price point is a good deal.

Duke...I'm not here to convince you regarding Red. The Red One to me is a revolutionary camera and guess what...I have a right to say that.

Too bad you don't take the time to read what Duke actually writes, and that's the true sign that you are a fanboy. You talk about footage from future products as if it already existed and even when Duke agrees with you, you still repeat the same mantras over and over as if you're the only enlightened one in the room. Giv me a break.

I challenge you to find another camera package that is equal to the Red One.

It makes prettier pictures, isn't nearly as ugly and has a proven post workflow that can be done anywhere:
http://visualproducts.com/storeProductDetail02.asp?productID=1120&Cat=2&Cat2=14

acoelho1

2008 August 30th, 01:42

Yes of course...and does the film come with the camera b/c 35mm film is really cheap

Duke

2008 August 30th, 08:16

OK, for an interesting discussion here's what I'm calling an HV50. http://hv20.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=2521&stc=1&d=1220097929

I took my old HV20 and replaced the v1.2 HDMI transmitter with a v1.3 transmitter for higher band width. I unmasked the sensor from 1920x1080 for video to the full 2048x1536 sensor that it always had. That's a full 3.1 megapixels, which is bigger than the Scarlet's sensor.

I shoot through a Panasonic LA7200 1.33 anamorphic lens. That gives me a 2724 x 1536 image with full 16:9 aspect ratio and 4.2.2 color coding. Theoretically the v1.3 HDMI transmitter should allow me 4.4.4, but I haven't figured out how yet.

That's 4 megapixel resolution if I output with a square PAR. (Surprisingly Vegas 8 Pro can handle it with a raid 0 array.)

I capture direct to hard drive for NO compression artifacts. Zero. And I'm not limited by some silly little 16 gig CF cards. I have 4 terabytes of capture space. Sure I'm tethered to a computer, but with a 35' cable I don't notice it. How often do you move more than 35' in a shot? (Under water doesn't count since resolution isn't good then anyway due to the water.)

You're not counting the computer you need for the Scarlet workflow when figuring the price, so I won't count the computer needed for the capture.

My HV50 cost $1,400 including the Panasonic lens and I have use of the HV20 zoom (Scarlet has a fixed lens), a bigger sensor, a bigger image and no artifacts. Plus my dof adapter still fits.

So it's better than a Scarlet at half the price, and no I'm not showing the footage because I'm going to unveil it all at my big premiere, but you have to believe me it's a much, much better image than the scarlet will ever have because I say so or someone else said so. And when I output to 2k the image looks better than any other camera.

I gave you the technical specs, and the prior camera and components just like you did, so why don't you believe me? It's all based on the HV20, just like the Scarlet is based on the Red. Don't you see how egotistical and fanboyish that sounds?

Duke

acoelho1

2008 August 30th, 11:47

I never said there won't be additional cost to handle raw but the workflow issues are improving and will be much better when the Scarlet is out. There is really no point continuing this discussion, however, I understand that you want to see footage and what the full specs will be. All I was trying to say is that based solely on the Red One and what we currently know what Scarlet will have, I believe its inevitable that this camera will deliver. I have already given you my reason and yes, its circumstantial evidence but that is all we have at the moment. Lastly, the original argument was regarding the Red One, whether it is a revolutionary camera or not. I think it is.

Duke

2008 August 30th, 12:14

Ahh, but this is the first time you've said "I believe" and admitted that we don't know quite everything about it. That makes your discussion now more believable and reasonable. That wasn't hard, was it?

For the upper end Indie niche I believe the Red One will soon revolutionize that spectrum of the market, but the support is still developing.

Of course the low end can't afford that is hoping the Scarlet will be able to give them a boost from their 1080 cameras.

In addition, it will be a few years more before the upper end market changes much, if for no other reason than they've already made the investments in expensive equipment so any qualitative argument will be an excuse to not change.

acoelho1

2008 August 30th, 12:20

Ahh, but this is the first time you've said "I believe" and admitted that we don't know quite everything about it. That makes your discussion now more believable and reasonable. That wasn't hard, was it?

I dont think my argument has changed so it wasnt that hard. I've always said my conclusion on the Scarlet was based on the Red One.

lordtangent

2008 August 30th, 20:32

Duke, if you want to see what Scarlet footage will most likely look like all you need to do is make a 3K extraction from some Red One REDCODE RAW files. REDCODE RAW files are now available all over the Internet. Redcine is free on the Red Digital Cinema site and you can play around with it all you like and see how it works for yourself.

If the RAW from the Scarlet isn't at LEAST as good as the RAW from the Red One then RDC will have totally dropped the ball. I suspect it will have at least as good a dynamic range, which is already good enough. If the dynamic range is BETTER (As promised) that's just gravy.

Really, at this point in history it doesn't take any fan-boy-ism and hardly even any faith at all to imagine that Scarlet will ship ... and will make pretty damn good pictures.

And based on the "0.7 rule" (for single chip cameras) A 3k single chip camera should be able to produce about 2.1-2.2k of honest to goodness resolution.

On the work-flow front, Adobe has announced native support and native support will probably be available in many other systems once the SDK ships for REDCODE. (which will be long before Scarlet ships)

Duke

2008 August 30th, 21:59

If the RAW from the Scarlet isn't at LEAST as good as the RAW from the Red One then RDC will have totally dropped the ball.

Yep, it will probably look better, and I even believe it will, but RDC might drop the ball. There's no lock on anything yet.

Really, at this point in history it doesn't take any fan-boy-ism and hardly even any faith at all to imagine that Scarlet will ship ...

Yes, I think it will ship. But April? Maybe, but in quantities where the average Joe can buy one will probably be 6-12 months after final specs are released and we don't have final specs. It's a little hard on credibility to over hype something that doesn't exist yet.

I can see where some people on Scarletuser are saying 2010 or 2011. Ordinary manufacturing processes and delays would do that.

On the work-flow front, Adobe has announced native support and native support will probably be available in many other systems once the SDK ships for REDCODE. (which will be long before Scarlet ships)

I look forward to it all, I really do. As I said, if it's close to what's claimed I'll likely be buying one. Maybe I should be from Missouri, the show me state.

acoelho1

2008 August 30th, 22:13

Yes, I think it will ship. But April? Maybe, but in quantities where the average Joe can buy one will probably be 6-12 months after final specs are released and we don't have final specs. It's a little hard on credibility to over hype something that doesn't exist yet.

I can see where some people on Scarletuser are saying 2010 or 2011. Ordinary manufacturing processes and delays would do that.

I am on Scarletuser daily and no one is talking about 2010 or 2011 release. Final specs have been locked down according to Red and why would they need to make it public anyways. They will have prototype next month at IBC and Jim has already said they are on schedule for April release. Red is quite aware that there will be high demand for this camera so your average joe should be able to get their camera in the first half of next year. However, they have stated that Red One owners will get first crack at Scarlet but that shouldn't change the timeframe. Finally, its a little hard on credibility to totally ignore the Red One success to make an assessment on Scarlet

lordtangent

2008 August 30th, 22:36

Maybe I should be from Missouri, the show me state.

A "Show me" attitude does not seem unreasonable at all. Basically, it will ship and be ready for prime time on Reds Schedule: "Some time early 2009, subject to change..."

If you have to do a project NOW, then it of course doesn't make any sense to think about Scarlet too much.

But if you are in no rush to spend money or the announced time-frame for the release matches your "upgrade cycle" anyway, well then...hanging on to see how Scarlet turns out is not that unreasonable either.

For me the HV20 does a great job right now, so I'm in no rush at all to upgrade. (I'm not going to be getting an EX-1 or HVX any time soon, that is for certain!) Though, when Scarlet ships and if it lives up to the published specs, I will totally want to upgrade. The improved recording (I-Frame only) and high speed mode alone would be enough to get me off the fence.

Duke

2008 September 7th, 11:55

I will be most interested in seeing if the relatively slow (f2.6 I think) lens will eliminate some of the DOF advantage fo the 2/3" sensor.

Jim said he wouldn't be surprised if there weren't comparisions with the Sony F23, which is also 2/3" but at true 1920x1080.

However, the F23 is 4.4.4, with f1.4. The faster lens should give a shallower DOF. It will be really interesting to see how they compare.

Just out of idle curiosity, how many of you are interested in the Scarlet if it has about the same dof as the HV20 (better resolution of course) and 4.2.0 color if you don't use the HDMI out? So you still need a DOF adaper with the scarlet?

This might be an interesting discussion. What do you value the most for your next upgrade: (What order would you put them in?)

Resolution

4.2.2 or better color coding/space

shallower DOF so an adapter isn't needed

Variable frame rates

Manual controls

HMDI out

tapeless

cheap memory cards

other?

spideralex90

2008 September 7th, 13:23

Erik Bien

2008 September 7th, 13:49

Just out of idle curiosity, how many of you are interested in the Scarlet if it has about the same dof as the HV20 (better resolution of course) and 4.2.0 color if you don't use the HDMI out?

It's really incorrect (http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=5067) (or at least misleading) to describe the output of RED's sensors as "4:?:?" since they record in RAW — true, they're Bayer sensors (and thus have twice as many green photosites as red or blue) but the mild wavelet compression applied to the monochrome channels is very different from the usual video compression practice of throwing away chroma data.

That difference along with the frame-rate options would be enough for me to spend three Gs on the camera even if it had the identical specs for lens, sensor size and pixel count as the HV20.

Of course, Scarlet's sensor is both larger and more densely packed with photosites, and its lens will be at least T (not f/) 2.8 throughout the zoom range rather than ramping as the HVx0 does. For the most part, RED's lenses have drawn praise (http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=16119) from very experienced and discriminating experts so I'll be very surprised if Scarlet doesn't also have nice glass.

Duke

2008 September 7th, 15:24

It's really incorrect (http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=5067) (or at least misleading) to describe the output of RED's sensors as "4:?:?" since they record in RAW

Thanks for that link. I'm assuming it will mostly apply to the Scarlet although it's a different sensor than the Red. (My understanding was the Scarlet has the new Mysterium sensor.)

BTW, don't get me wrong. I'm not knocking the Scarlet, or the Red One, I'm seeking factual information to educate myself. This means asking hard questions.

It sounds like (and I don't pretend to fully understand) that it's sort of like 4.4.4 because there is no destruction of color data. Every pixel will have image and color data, (and maybe extra data) great! I also read the part about it being RAW and therefore 4.4.4 doesn't apply, but didn't understand how it doesn't apply. A new nomenclature maybe: 4.4.8.4? (for image, red, green, blue) LOL

I read the part about twice as many green sites, but I know the human eye doesn't have equal amount of receptors for each color. I'm assuming that the extra green sites and large sensor size will be to average out noise, aliasing, etc to create a more clear picture. (Am I wrong?)

That difference along with the frame-rate options would be enough for me to spend three Gs on the camera even if it had the identical specs for lens, sensor size and pixel count as the HV20.

That's what I was asking about, what is most important to most people in their camera upgrade needs. I've done very little slo-mo, and I've done it with the (somewhat) cheating method of using the separate fields as a frame with a loss of resolution, so I forget to put variable frame rates in at all. I'll add that up above. Thanks.

Of course, Scarlet's sensor is both larger and more densely packed with photosites, and its lens will be at least T (not f/) 2.8 throughout the zoom range rather than ramping as the HVx0 does. For the most part, RED's lenses have drawn praise (http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=16119) from very experienced and discriminating experts so I'll be very surprised if Scarlet doesn't also have nice glass.

Again, showing my ignorance, what is a T2.8 lens verses f2.8? Assuming the T factor is light transmittal such as the f stops, what is the T effect on DOF?

Thanks for your help.
Duke

d1g1t

2008 September 7th, 15:26

Duke, your HV50 thing sounds awesome. like almost to good to believe. I knwo you said you won't be posting footage and such until your premiere, but when is your premiere? and by any chance will you have a guide for what you did at some point?

I think Duke was making an illustrated point about the Scarlet still being vaporware. There are lots of claims flying around but it is silly to argue about them until an actual camera is available for sale.

Right, Duke? Sorry if I've misunderstood and your HV50 actually exists. In which case, I look forward to your big premiere. :-)

Erik Bien

2008 September 7th, 16:08

I'm assuming it will mostly apply to the Scarlet although it's a different sensor than the Red. (My understanding was the Scarlet has the new Mysterium sensor.)

Yes, so far as we all know, Scarlet will record REDcode RAW just as RED One does (plus it will have an as-yet-unspecified "RGB recording mode" for which "video style" compression shorthand might be more applicable).

BTW, don't get me wrong. I'm not knocking the Scarlet, or the Red One, I'm seeking factual information to educate myself. This means asking hard questions.

I understand, applaud, agree, and find myself in much the same boat (that's why I try very hard not to assert anything that can't be firmly attributed to an "official" RED source). We're all still learning about this stuff!

It sounds like (and I don't pretend to fully understand) that it's sort of like 4.4.4 because there is no destruction of color data. I also read the part about it being RAW and therefore 4.4.4 doesn't apply, but didn't understand how it doesn't apply.

That nomenclature is a bit of a hold-over from the days of analog interlaced video; if you're a DSLR shooter, maybe thinking about it like the difference between .jpg and camera RAW can help. I also think it's safe to say there should be no trouble ultimately producing a 2K+ 4:4:4 YCbCr (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/YCbCr) deliverable from Scarlet. This RAW stuff is kind of hard to grok coming from a video background — footage you shoot today on RED One might actually gain resolution and dynamic range when you revisit it a year from now, if RED's debayering scheme continues to improve. It's like being able to re-scan your original negative on better equipment or, as someone memorably wrote recently at SCARLETuser, "it's like being able to choose your film stock after you've taken the shot." This is why RED One's menu interface is elegantly simple compared to other cameras: there's no sharpening to adjust and many other parameters (like ISO and white balance) are simply meta-data that rides along with the footage and tells the software how it should be interpreted: changing it after the fact is fast, easy and non-destructive.

I read the part about twice as many green sites, but I know the human eye doesn't have equal amount of receptors for each color. I'm assuming that the extra green sites and large sensor size will be to average out noise, aliasing, etc to create a more clear picture. (Am I wrong?)

In this regard, RED's sensors are like any other Bayer-filtered (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bayer_filter) CMOS (such as the HV), which take advantage of the fact that human vision is more sensitive to green than red or blue. The big difference is that reconstructing the sensor data into a finished image happens in post (the live monitoring outputs from the One are a "quick and dirty" de-Bayer scaled to 720p) rather than in camera.

what is a T2.8 lens verses f2.8? Assuming the T factor is light transmittal such as the f stops, what is the T effect on DOF?

There's a good discussion of the difference at SCARLETuser (http://www.scarletuser.com/showthread.php?t=882), but essentially a T-stop represents "actual" light transmission, whereas an f/stop is mathematically derived from the focal length and aperture and doesn't account for the absorption/dispersion characteristics of the glass. Therefore, the T-stop will always be somewhat slower than the f/stop.

Thanks for your help.

Anytime, bro ... still trying to figure all this stuff out myself! :hv20-smilie45:

Duke

2008 September 7th, 16:16

I think Duke was making an illustrated point about the Scarlet still being vaporware. There are lots of claims flying around but it is silly to argue about them until an actual camera is available for sale.

Right, Duke? Sorry if I've misunderstood and your HV50 actually exists. In which case, I look forward to your big premiere. :-)

You understood correctly. You can't say it's a good camera or bad camera, because there is no camera or actual footage to evaluate yet.

I've actually only done about 3/4 of those things I said to my camera. :) I really wish we had a Canon insider to find out more how things were done though. I would like to know how the HV20/30 three megapixel sensor is masked off to two megapixels. Since the sensor is fully wired up (it does take bigger still photos) do the video circuits ignore the other data?

Lordtangent had a good idea about getting raw out of the HV20. I do have the 1.33 anamorphic lens. We can get that high resolution 2.5k image right now with HDMI. We can get 4.2.2 color out of HDMI, etc.

Look out for my premier though! LOL
Duke

Duke

2008 September 7th, 16:23

There's a good discussion of the difference at SCARLETuser, but essentially a T-stop represents "actual" light transmission, whereas an f/stop is mathematically derived from the focal length and aperture and doesn't account for the absorption/dispersion characteristics of the glass. Therefore, the T-stop will always be somewhat slower than the f/stop.

That would be a good thing though if the T2.8 is roughly equal to an f2.0 or f2.2. It wouldn't nullify the advantages of the 2/3" sensor.

Duke

Erik Bien

2008 September 7th, 16:32

That would be a good thing though if the T2.8 is roughly equal to an f2.0 or f2.2.

With modern coatings, the difference will probably be closer to a third of a stop (http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?p=277607) (but every little bit helps!).

Duke

2008 September 7th, 17:00

With modern coatings, the difference will probably be closer to a third of a stop (http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?p=277607) (but every little bit helps!).

OK, about a f2.4 then. That gives us something to compare on the new cameras. On the other hand most of us using old manual lenses on our 35mm adapters aren't using the modern lenses with modern coatings.

Ian-T

2008 September 7th, 17:13

Erik Bien

2008 September 7th, 18:32

I've done very little slo-mo, and I've done it with the (somewhat) cheating method of using the separate fields as a frame with a lose of resolution, so I forget to put variable frame rates in at all.

Here are a couple of Vimeo clips that might put it in perspective.

This is the RED One shooting at its maximum frame rate (which will also be Scarlet's fastest sustained rate), 120fps (http://www.vimeo.com/1685802) (using a 2K "window" cut from the middle of the sensor).

The overcranked shots in this spot were shot at 3K, 60fps (http://www.vimeo.com/1365766).

Right now, this "windowing" is necessary to achieve high frame rates on the One, but Scarlet is supposed to support up to 100MB/s data rates (the One currently offers either 28 or 36MB/s) so presumably the off-speed stuff can happen at full 3K resolution if you're willing to accept the shorter record times on the media.

Duke

2008 September 7th, 18:48

So...if I'm understanding all of this correctly...using Scarlet "indoors" we would still be able to produce a great shallow DOF...especially when zoomed in...because

1. The f stop does not change when you zoom in...?
2. Due to #1 ....you don't loose any light

And if remember correctly..f 2.4 is optimal for shallow DOF....???????

My recollection is they said the T2.8 through the entire zoom range.

I don't know about the last one though. My understanding is that generally the faster the lens setting the shallower the DOF.

I watched the Harley commercial at 3k 60 fps. Maybe once or twice for (ahem) "content" and finally for technical. The problem is I didn't see where it said which lenses they used or what setting. However the DOF didn't seem real shallow. Shallower than most video cameras for sure, but who knows what lens they used.

Duke

Erik Bien

2008 September 7th, 18:53

I watched the Harley commercial at 3k 60 fps. The problem is I didn't see where it said which lenses they used or what setting. However the DOF didn't seem real shallow. Shallower than most video cameras for sure, but who knows what lens they used.

It was RED's 18-50mm T-3 (http://www.red.com/store/202002) zoom; probably stopped way the heck down (I know at that point they were still waiting for Redrock's matte box to arrive, and may not have used any NDs at all). Also looks like a pretty tight shutter.

Ian-T

2008 September 7th, 19:10

My understanding is that generally the faster the lens setting the shallower the DOF.Thanks. That much I understand...but I think what some folks were saying was past a certain f stop it becomes way too shallow (less film-like and more amateurish)...sort of like how most folks shoot with their adapters in many of these forums. But we do that because we lose so much light...sort of a necessary evil. I guess keeping the fixed lens of the Scarlet at around f 2.4 is that "optimal" setting that I was thinking of....and plus you don't have any extra glass in front of the lens to lose any necessary light and you can zoom in without worrying about the same thing (at least that's how I see it).

As you can see....I don't know what the heeby-geeby I'm talking about....but I'm learning.

I watched the Harley commercial at 3k 60 fps. Maybe once or twice for (ahem) "content" and finally for technical.

Duke....lol....content is king......

Duke

2008 September 7th, 19:18

....lol....content is king......

I didn't exactly need DOF to make me focus. :)

lordtangent

2008 September 8th, 04:05

So... I know it still technically doesn't exist. But the new "Mysterium-X" is supposed to have better dynamic range than the classic Mysterium.

With a linear digital sensor, "Better Dyanimic Range" essentially means better Signal to Noise Ratio... which also means... FASTER Sensor. So, if the "Mysterium-X" really is an improvement it means the sensor might be a native ASA 500 rather than the 320 of the Red One. Plenty of stops available to add a DOF adapter and not have to toast the talent to get enough light to actually use it indoors. (Compared to the HV20) And you still have the typical advantage of being able to use the cameras built-in iris as "ND" as many people do when using the adapters on regular video cameras.

I personally don't really care for DOF adapters since they all seem to have a sort of diffusion filter look to them. But I AM excited about a camera that is rated at 320-500 (The Red One can pretty safely be shot at 500 with little penalty noise-wise... so if the Scarlet is the same or better I assume the same will be possible). Compared to the ASA 50 of the HV20 it's going to be luxury! I'll be able to light with practicals, china balls with regular household bulbs and photo flood "scoop" lights. I could use little CFLs and my home made FLOs. (AS I do with my DSLR) I'm just stoked about the idea of not having to light with 500 and 1000 watt lights for my movie stuff! "Night for Night" will be so much easier to do. Yeah. It's going to be great.

And here is a thought for you all. How about windowed shooting on the Scarlet? (the Red One does it so why not the Scarlet?) If Scarlet can do 120fps full frame, what happens if you window to say 2k or even 1k?

Assuming that by 16:9 3k @ 120fps they mean 3072x1728 and the pixel clock allows for a fixed rate of pixels up to that maximum number of pixels per second...

(3k) 3072x1728 = 5308416 pixels per frame x 120fps = 637009920 pixels per second

So the Scarlet can push 637009920 pixels per second...What are the theoretical max frame rates it could do windowed based on that number of 637009920 pixels per second?

(2k) 2048x1152 = 2359296 pixels per frame
637009920 pixels per second / 2359296 pixels per frame = 270fps

(1k) 1024x576 = 589824 pixels per frame
637009920 pixels per second / 589824 pixels per frame = 1080fps !

1080 is is a 45x slowdown (assuming a playback rate of 24fps) not too shabby! That's fast enough to shoot miniature explosions and stuff.

2008 September 8th, 04:11

That's all great and dandy...unless another cam maker comes out with something that would be direct competition, at which time RED simply pulls the plug and there is no Scarlet.
Can anyone say: CinePorter?
It happens, you know.

Duke

2008 September 8th, 09:14

Can anyone say: CinePorter?
It happens, you know.

I remember that debacle. In my mind the EX1/3 are great except the price of the P2 cards costing closer to $1k. The CinePorter, I thought, was a great idea. Especially as hard drives drop in price. It's easy to get a 1 terrabyte for less than $150. Then they pulled the plug last year. They're trying for a CP2 now, but I don't know if anyone will trust them.

Duke

2008 September 8th, 09:30

Back to my original question, the variable frame rate isn't that high on my "must have" list to upgrade. Mine is more like this:

1) Higher resolution

2) shallower DOF so an adapter isn't needed - I agree with Lordtangent that the adaptor cuts resolution.

3) Manual controls - although they said the Scarlet will in some ways be stripped down. I'm still wondering in what ways? No ND filters? what?

4) Cheap memory cards - either CF or HD-SC. CF was a good choice.

5) 4.2.2 or better color coding/space. - Scarlets RAW is a good choice once the NLEs can handle it, and that's improving.

6) Variable frame rates - to me this is nice, but not a deal breaker.

7) HMDI out - I think there is no better sales tool with the HV20 than having an investor watch a gorgeous image on a big screen TV while you're shooting and being able to tell them the image will get better in post. Although this may be nullified a bit in Scarlet with a 720p HDMI image.

Has anyone thought about the "professional appearance" of the Scarlet (being so tiny). Gawd are we going to have to trick it out with attachments so it looks professional enough?

DaFireMedic

2008 September 8th, 13:03

Red is quite aware that there will be high demand for this camera so your average joe should be able to get their camera in the first half of next year

First of all, I am very enthusiastic about what Scarlet will be. Even if it doesn't completely live up to the hype it should be a large leap forward. But my concern still lies with availability. The big companies have huge manufacturing capability and can produce large numbers of camcorders in a relatively short period of time. To my knowledge, RED does not and as you mentioned people are still waiting for their RED Ones. The demand for Scarlet will be significantly higher at a 3k price point, and I am skeptical about RED's ability to meet this demand. As I have money set aside for Scarlet, I hope that they can.

Ian-T

2008 September 8th, 13:17

Timing is everything. If you announce a product too early you can end up shooting yourself in the foot. Maybe Red learned their lesson from the Red One and started production of the Scarlet long before their due-date announcement a few months back. I can’t imagine them not doing so. Much more folks are going to buy the Scarlet than they are the Red One.

2008 September 8th, 19:33

They will, of course also have a quality problem (nothing new there).
It's FAR easier to make 500 of something with high quality than 50000 and maintaining that same quality.

Expect there to be very similar problems to the RED launch;
although the buyers this time around won't be quite as forgiving in having their cam called "BETA" for 9 months (or whatever), as it will a be a slightly different crowd, and one that has more of a "bring-it-back-to-Walmart-for-a-full-refund-if-it-doesn't-work" attitude.

Kyleman

2008 September 8th, 21:49

I thought about the same thing, sure it might have 3k resolution, but will it have the quality to mark up with that? Look at the HMC-150, nice camera as it created some hype, butt look at the horrible High-8 quality. :hv20-smilie01:

-Kyle

Duke

2008 September 8th, 23:44

I thought about the same thing, sure it might have 3k resolution, but will it have the quality to mark up with that? Look at the HMC-150, nice camera as it created some hype, but look at the horrible High-8 quality. :hv20-smilie01:

Kyle, I understand your point and agree that we all have some concern about/hoping for a great picture quality, but I think Mal was referring to manufacturing quality. Mass production is an art unto itself.

All we can do is wait and see.

Kyleman

2008 September 8th, 23:49

Kyle, I understand your point and agree that we all have some concern about/hoping for a great picture quality, but I think Mal was referring to manufacturing quality. Mass production is an art unto itself.

All we can do is wait and see.

Ah, yes that is true. I have heard that it will be made from aluminum, I hope that is true. It will be a new step for them to go big on manufacturing, like the rest of us, I also will just wait and see.

-Kyle

Duke

2008 September 11th, 09:30

Erik,

Thanks for sending me the still images. At the higher resolution I was able to see the DOF much better. Wonderful images! You did a great job.

Duke

Erik Bien

2008 September 11th, 12:04

HTH, Duke!

(Although as you might recall from this thread (http://www.hv20.com/showthread.php?t=13855), I didn't actually get to work on that shoot.) :hv20-smilie119:

Still, I'll pass on your congratulations when I'm in MO next week ... :hv20-smilie77:

Duke

2008 September 11th, 20:47

Some1shero told me they opened a Red retail store not too far from my house so I had to check it out. If you want to see a billionaire's parking space, see the attached file. I don't know if there's a connection to DVXuser, but there was a DVXUser license plate in the lot, though I won't say on whose car. Has anyone looked up whois for DVXuser?

They had two Red cameras set up that you could play with, cycle the menus, focus, etc. It was kind of nice to actually get my hands on one.

The furnishings were black camoflauge netting on the walls and Oakley display cases. (Jim is also the owner of Oakley sunglasses.) Oakly has that futuristic/apocalyptic theme so that's cool.

The employees did say they weren't guaranteeing the Scarlet would be out by April, just some time the first part of 2009. Seemed like nice guys. They gave me a good pitch on the Red. There was a High Def screen showing a reel and it was very impressive.

They said they expected to be fully caught up with Red One reservations in mid January.

Hey, Mal! Do you still have your reservation and do you need a partner? :)

Duke

Ian-T

2008 September 11th, 20:56

LOL...I don't know about the rest of you...but I like this guy's attitude. That parking sign is hilarious. Also their motto 'We reserve the right to refuse service to anyone with a bad attitude"....Working for him is probably like working for the guys at Google...or back in the day at Microsoft....

Duke

2008 September 11th, 20:59

I just looked up DVX user. It's registered to J Land. Since the sign says Jarred Land and that's where I saw the DVXUser license plate I don't think I'd be jumping to too big of a conclusion to assume he owns that too.

Hey Mal, you're in good company! :hv20-smilie87:

Ian-T

2008 September 11th, 21:17

My bad....I was mixing up two different people.... But Jared Land...Isn't he also at RedUser.com....or is it ScarletUser.com?

2008 September 11th, 21:26

Jarred Land had started DVXuser. Jim Jennard needed a platform to showcase and garner interest for RED, so they both hooked up and have been married since (not literally, but professionally!).

End of history lesson. :hv20-smilie64:

THAT parking sign is WAY COOL, I need to get me one of them for my electric bicycle! :hv20-smilie03:

Duke

2008 September 11th, 21:26

I mixed them up too. He posts on Reduser, is quoted on Scarletuser (probably posts too but I didn't search) and is the registeree of DVXuser and has a DVXuser license plate.

Ian-T

2008 September 11th, 21:37

....It's a conspiracy....they are trying to take over the world....scrambling our brains....I can't...think...arrrgghhhh!!!!

ajc1

2008 September 11th, 22:13

I believe Jarred owns dvxuser, reduser and scarletuser and I think he works for Red now as well.

David

2008 September 12th, 01:55

Some1shero told me they opened a Red retail store not too far from my house

??? What do they sell there? Reservations for the RED? How many employees? I guess when you're as rich as Jannard, you can have a store and retail employees to sell whatever you want :)

2008 September 12th, 02:14

??? What do they sell there?

LOL; they sell the "feeling" of RED.

Duke

2008 September 12th, 08:24

??? What do they sell there? Reservations for the RED? How many employees? I guess when you're as rich as Jannard, you can have a store and retail employees to sell whatever you want :)

The Red "store" is one room in the front of their office building. They had two employees there, and one other guy dropped in and sat on the coach. I sort of had the feeling he was there just to listen to what everyone was saying. Maybe he was a supervisor or something, but he never introduced himself or said anything to me.

Beyond the two Red cameras, the biggest display was one rack of mens and women's Red t-shirts.

One computer was set up to show editing of Red-cine files. In the front were three or four small displays that had handles, mounting plates, CF cards, etc.

Since the Red One is the only camera that has actually been sold but none are in stock, and no reservations are being taken for Scarlet, (we discussed the Epic but I don't think that is being sold yet either), therefore you could say that what was being sold was reservations for the Red.

There is actually a memorandum with the SEC that Oakley (which Jim also owns) will lend employees to Red without the companies becoming partners.

Duke

2008 September 12th, 09:16

Huh? Jim J. doesn't own Oakley.

Ian-T

2008 September 12th, 09:55

From Wiki:

James "Jim" Jannard is the founder of the eyewear and apparel company Oakley, Inc. and has been its Chairman and a director since the company's inception in 1975. He also served as its President between 1975 and February 1999. In October 1999, Jannard was named the company's CEO.[1]

He was placed by Forbes Magazine at number 239 on the Forbes 400 in 2007 with a net worth of $2 billion.

He is also the founder and principal backer of RED Digital Cinema, a manufacturer of high-resolution video cameras used in productions designed for cinema release. The company first showed a mock-up of their camera in April, 2006 at NAB 2006 and began shipping cameras on August 31, 2007.

He's a college dropout...come to think of it so is Bill Gates...dang....why did i have to finish college..?????

Erik Bien

2008 September 12th, 10:20

I think what Mal means is Oakley is no longer a privately-held company ... as I recall Jim Jannard made approximately $2 Billion when the company went public.

Duke

2008 September 12th, 10:23

I think what Mal means is Oakley is no longer a privately-held company ... as I recall Jim Jannard made approximately $2 Billion when the company went public.

Right, my bad terminology. I should have said founder and CEO. I wouldn't be surprised if he's still the majority stock holder, but I don't know for sure.

2008 September 12th, 10:23

I stand corrected!

I thought he sold it, but it appears they simply merged.

Duke

2008 September 12th, 10:38

I stand corrected!

I thought he sold it, but it appears they simply merged.

Not merged. Two separate companies. That's why they needed to file that SEC document, to show they weren't merging or becoming partners. They are sharing resources though.

Duke

2008 September 13th, 09:30

Ian-T

2008 September 13th, 10:10

What? That means it's hard to get a bad shot with that cam then. That's a beautiful thang...(as i wipe a tear from my eye)

Duke

2008 September 13th, 10:47

What? That means it's hard to get a bad shot with that cam then. That's a beautiful thang...(as i wipe a tear from my eye)

Yes, it does. It also may explain why the Scarlet info has never said a word about ND filters. It may not need them.

Erik Bien

2008 September 13th, 12:50

Just for the record: you can indeed under-expose the RED by a stop or two with virtually no penalty (the sensor is native 320 ISO, but 500 ISO shows almost no increase in noise), but over-exposure is still to be avoided as on most digital cams: Rec.709 and REDspace both have a half-stop or so of "headroom" built in so when you see a "traffic light" indicating a channel is clipped, you can quickly switch to "camera RAW" and make sure you aren't really clipping — if so, you'll want to stop down and/or add NDs for best results. :hv20-smilie77:

Kyleman

2008 September 13th, 15:57

I forgot to mention that I was really impressed with the way the Red handled exposure, etc as meta-data. If you under, or over, expose you can correct it in post without being destructive to the footage as it isn't locked in.

Cool. Sounds like when I shoot RAW with my Digital Rebel XT, I just open the file in Photoshop. And I can change the exposure, color temperature, etc. It's really nice.

-Kyle

elantric

2008 September 16th, 18:19

Interesting Article - "Exposing the Red"
http://library.creativecow.net/articles/battistella_david/RED_camera_Exposure.php

jburrows500

2008 September 17th, 09:44

DaFireMedic

2008 September 18th, 10:04

Having read most of the reply's to the OP question a few thoughts have come to mind. One reply concerned how future proof was this new camera. From my experience, it seems this day and age has done away with "future proof" and has paved the way of "buy new every other year". Gone are the days when you can go out and buy a nice Nikon 35mm camera and use it for 30 years. Think of today's land fills full of Iomega 100 zip drives that we all thought would last us some time. The 512 flash cards that were once 89.99 that today are worthless in light of 4gb cards for 29.99. The list could go on and on but I think in today's world I ask myself why buy a D90 today when I know AF when filming will be available within 6 month to a year by either Nikon or some other. Don't get me wrong.. I have traded up digital cameras 4 times now... my 10 year old owns my 2 year old Sony H7. It also works out great in that I can now afford a D80 that was 1299 only a few years ago which today you can get for under 600.

You bring up some good questions. I would answer by saying that this is the nature of technology today. You can't get hung up on the latest and greatest. Its like buying a computer with technology advancing so fast. At some point, you just have to jump in and buy one, despite the fact that it will be "obsolete" in a few months by current standards. If one buys the Scarlet when it comes out, it should last him for years and do the same things that he bought it to do, even if something else comes out that does it a little better. But I think Scarlet will hold its value longer than most. I bought the HV20 1 1/2 years ago and save for the minor upgrades of the HV30, its still the best camcorder in its class IMO, so some things do last. But as you pointed out, most tech stuff gets passed by very quickly by new advances. It will always be that way, so I don't worry about it.

The other point was who is this Scarlet targeting?

The indie filmmaker and serious hobbyist who wants advanced features and is willing to spend $3000 to get them.

If its the average Joe looking to record his kids inst it enough to record it in HD.

Yes, its more than enough to record in HD for most people. Despite threads describing Scarlet as an "HV30 killer" and such, at $3000 it is not a camcorder for the average Joe and will make nary a dent in the HV30's market (the HV30 will wind down shortly anyway with the advancements in solid state camcorders). Most vacation/family type users do not need nor want RAW, they want a decent image with ease of use. Scarlet is not for them.

Ian-T

2008 September 18th, 10:15

Well said DaFireMedic...

ajc1

2008 September 18th, 22:25

I don't see the average joe buying this camera and although it is relatively inexpensive, you still will have to invest in a powerful workstation to deal with Redcode Raw. However, I expect the workflow issues to improve and the Red One owners are being the guinea pigs right now, which will benefit the Scarlet owners in the future.

Marshallator

2008 September 19th, 10:30

I'm very curious to see how much Scarlet is going to weigh, as far as selecting a steadycam is concerned.

d1g1t

2008 September 19th, 11:14

I'm very curious to see how much Scarlet is going to weigh, as far as selecting a steadycam is concerned.

"About 4 pounds" according to http://www.scarletuser.com/showthread.php?t=5

94strings

2008 September 19th, 16:49

I think Jim from red chimed in not to long ago to say that the Scarlet had gained a little weight. It is currently around 4.5 pounds.

Ian-T

2008 September 19th, 16:55

hmmm....pocket cam my donkey....

I can see a soccer mom walking about 40ft with this thing before lactic acids start to kick in.... But I'm a big boy....so I won't complain.

Sean Michael

2008 September 20th, 03:38

Yeah, when Scarlet was originally touted as a "professional pocket camera" I envisioned something like an HV20 with a bigger sensor, XLR inputs, and more manual controls. But Scarlet is turning out to be a lot bulkier and heavier than first thought.

acoelho1

2008 September 21st, 00:13

94strings

2008 September 22nd, 04:33

Scarlet has changed again as per Jim Jannard. www.scarletuser.com

94strings

2008 September 22nd, 04:36

I guess we will find out soon enough about this up to date change. Red seems to be shaking things up again.

2008 September 22nd, 04:43

Scarlet has changed again...

That's a GREAT link you posted (sarcasm here). Not what I'd call a pin-point link. :hv20-smilie01:

I took the liberty and searched the site, and found that they are changing EVERYTHING on Scarlet "Forget the design, and forget the price". And "The card up RED's sleeve is the ability to watch the market and react immediately."

LOL

2008 September 22nd, 04:45

Red seems to be shaking things up again.

They are amazing! Truly fantastic!
I foresee Canon, Panasonic, Sony and Nikon all filing for bankruptcy a month after Scarlet is released.
They are setting new standards!

Goose

2008 September 22nd, 04:48

Tell meMAL why do you have such a dislike for RED?

94strings

2008 September 22nd, 04:50

Wow Mal. I said that Red has changed things in Scarlet and you go and react in your funny way. I hope these changes benefit you and me and those interested in what Red will offer. All the best.

2008 September 22nd, 05:02

I'll probably buy the darn thing when it comes out (my best guess is interchangeable lenses, either C-Mount or photo lenses, and a CCD instead of CMOS).
Sort of like trying to get the good stuff from Canon 5D MKII, and the new A-Cam dII.
It will be a great cam, there's no doubt. Oh, and because it won't have a lens as standard, it will be less than the $3500 originally posted....my guess is $2500 or thereabouts. (They will probably try and "beat" the MSRP of the Canon 5D MKII and A-Cam dII , which is great for anyone who purchases the Scarlet, of course.)

In any event, my predictions were accurate; I posted this on Sept. 17th:
"expect some half-naked chick, or some weird speculative announcement, over at the RED forums, or some other candy. [Canon 5D MKII] sure took a hit out of Scarlet-mania if you ask me."
(from: http://hv20.com/showpost.php?p=133671&postcount=66 )

I will also say this again though: It's the fanatical behaviour of Red 'followers' that scares me.
It's just real scary to watch, that's all.

dcloud

2008 September 22nd, 06:41

wtf. dont tell me by the time they releasethis itll be 2011

Duke

2008 September 22nd, 08:26

I've said many times that what is important is to compare the Scarlet to what will be out from the other companies at the same time the Scarlet actually becomes available to the public.

I think the 5D MII has scared the hell out of them since it's out now, and has a bigger sensor and better low light capabilities than even the Red, much less say the Scarlet.

I predict (drum roll here) that the Scarlet won't be out until at least 2010 if they are doing a major design change now. Keep in mind, they don't need to beat what's coming out now, they need to beat what's coming out in a year or two from now, and everything else will be better then too.

(I don't think Scarlet will go CCD because large CCD chips get hot and are power hungry, plus he's sunk his money into CMOS development.) I do think Scarlet will finally concede to interchangable lenses, probably a PL mount like on the Red.

Imagine if Canon released an XH-A1 with the 5D sensor that uses the CF cards and has HDMI. In that case I'd buy the Canon, not the Scarlet. I don't think that would be a difficult camera for Canon to build since they've already worked out most of the design issues for the components.

Canon hasn't released their new prosumer camera yet. I'll buy one today if they're offering something like I mentioned above. I was waiting to see when Scarlet would release. I'm not waiting two more years.

David

2008 September 22nd, 14:05

Jim has announced that "We have a new vision", "that we have changed everything about Scarlet". "Forget the design, and forget the price".

Reeee-dick-u-luss

It's funny to see Jim Jannard pee his pants. I'm starting to wonder if RED will ever release anything beyond press releases and the currently sortof available limited edition RED ONE. He has the worst case of one-uppedness that I've ever seen.

Sean Michael

2008 September 22nd, 14:59

If they are really scrapping their previous designs, I don't see them bringing Scarlet to market anytime soon. I agree that 2010 is the likeliest launch date.

There's no sense in waiting for Scarlet. Buy whatever prosumer cam (or video SLR!) you want. If and when Scarlet arrives, if it turns out to be the greatest thing since sliced bread, you can always switch to it. But so far, it's just been a lot of speculation and online marketing.

94strings

2008 September 22nd, 15:08

I don't think any of us here will say when the Scarlet is finally released , '' Oh -that's it, that is what we have been waiting for". Red is in the game and thus needs to change it plan. The announced time schedule for release is just after NAB 09. I don't think they can afford to wait until 2010. Most won't wait that long considering other options available now. I am one waiting to buy the Scarlet and was happy with what is was turning out to be. I can re-adjust with Red's lattest announcement. I will post my thoughts as I wait and Red will make cinema cameras. That is what the company is about.

Ian-T

2008 September 22nd, 15:18

Red…God bless those guys….but they talk too much. I mean…that’s good for us in a way…because it forces the competition to rethink their “old” ways….but bad for them because companies with deeper pockets can jump on their ideas quicker. Look at all of these crazy DSLR’s coming out of the woodwork…you can thank Red for all of that. Yeah….they are changing the industry alright…but not necessarily the way they intended. If it’s true that Red is reworking the Scarlet…then yeah….don’t expect it anytime soon.

I agree with all of your points Duke. I mentioned it before (when the d90 came out) that they would rework that fixed lens thingy on the Scarlet. Go ahead and do all the reworks you can handle….in the meantime…I might become a new DSLR owner…..even Panasonic (http://www.letsgodigital.org/en/20106/panasonic-lumix-g/)is coming out with a new one…that can use multiple mounts (thanks to mattais for bringing that to my attention).

94strings

2008 September 22nd, 15:52

Red has deep pockets too apparently.

2008 September 22nd, 15:55

....…because it forces the competition to rethink their “old” ways…..... Look at all of these crazy DSLR’s coming out of the woodwork…you can thank Red for all of that. Yeah….they are changing the industry alright.

Do you honestly believe that? I do not. Not for a second.
I think we would of had the D90 and the 5D MKII with the same features at the same price at the same time, whether RED existed or not.
Those companies are so big it takes them years to develop a new cam. And I bet the tiny impact of RED isn't going to affect their time line map (which I'm sure has some amazing things on it for the near future) one iota.

I know it's romantic to think that a small company like RED could have this "revolutionary" impact on other huge companies (and it makes for great marketing and parking lot signs for them); the reality, however, is much more bland, I'm afraid.

----

Not directed at you, Ian-T, but the way RED have [very cleverly, I admit] conducted themselves seems to make some believe that any new development in cameras is the result of their doing - as if there was a permanent status quo B.R. (before Red). Hence, any new development is now a direct result of their divine existence.

Ian-T

2008 September 22nd, 16:03

Yeah but Red is basically starting from scratch. Companies like Panasonic, Canon and Sony have been in the game for a long time. I don't think it's a problem for any of these companies to make changes to an existing product and spit them out in no time. Red..well....it's harder building from the ground up. I would have kept my mouth shut...right before NAB or something....slap them in the face ... But they make these announcements over a year in advance...zand then there are the leaks with specs...etc..etc... it was like Canon said....oh yeah.....and panasonic said...me too....then Nikon...who was not even a blip on th radar drops a dime on everyone..... How's Red going to steal back their thunder?? From my perspective though....it's all good. Can't wait to see what the camcorder market as a whole offers next year.

Ian-T

2008 September 22nd, 16:13

Hmmm…..Mal…..I don’t know. Don’t you find it peculiar that all of this is happening around the same time? I mean….who is Canon responding to?? Panasonic? Nikon? They are certainly not looking out for us…. These are features that folks have been crying about for years (not necessarily on a DSLR)… Something (red) in the air (red) woke them up (red) to cause this paradigm shift (red)…lol.

I joke about Red being the sole reason….but really….. all of this is more than a coincidence to me....and is somehow related. By the way...it's not just Red.....there are others out there making an impact.

David

2008 September 22nd, 16:18

Look at all of these crazy DSLR’s coming out of the woodwork…you can thank Red for all of that.

No way.
- First off the amount of R&D that goes into releasing millions of units of any camera in one fell swoop is much longer than REDs mythological 'influence'.

- Secondly, digital cameras have recorded video FOR YEARS AND YEARS. Why would anybody think that as MP count goes up that the video would stay as crappy as a 2003 model? You really think that Nikon and Canon made their updated models use updated technology because of RED??? Come on. They're using advanced technology because technology has advanced.

- Thirdly, neither the Nikon nor the Canon release are marketed anywhere near to RED's fanbase. The big guys aren't even trying to take customers away from RED. They're not even shooting for RED's market. They're not even offering options that would make us happy because we're not their market. They're adding video for the majority of camera buyers, not the ones who own 35mm adapters or frequent the RED forums

Don't believe the hype, Ian-T. I know that all the dreamers on reduser and scarletuser would like us to believe that RED is going to destroy Canon and Nikon. I know that all the zealots on reduser and scarletuser would like us to believe that RED is responsible for the current Nikon and Canon cameras, but that is utterly ridiculous.