SCARLET by Red Digital Cinema

[Erik Bien]

My friend Meryem wrote a nice article on RED Day at DVinfo (http://www.dvinfo.net/article/misc/science_n_technology/red-digital-cinema-the-nab-2010-event.html). The Tattoo (EPIC beta) program should start next month, rolling out late summer. If all goes to plan, the first Scarlets should ship before year's end.

[Koppel]

NAB is over and we didn't get much new info about anything.

When the hell can we see testfootage from Scarlet... other than darkness (that iguana).
They don't even have to show the camera to release some footage.

It's always "after a few months"

[Koppel]

http://reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?p=587651#post587651

Big Scarlet update coming mid-May.

Jim

[1]

Big Scarlet update coming mid-May.

Jim

Of which year?

(an oldie, but a goldie!)

[sdeming]

Of which year? hahaha

[Koppel]

Big Scarlet update coming mid-May.

Jim

Is it mid-May yet?

[Erik Bien]

What's your point (http://www.reduser.net/forum/showpost.php?p=601096&postcount=192)?

[Daniel Rutter]

Screw RED... I'ma buy me a T2i and trick it out...
Seems like they're toys worth looking into anyway...

[Duke]

I wonder if this will have an impact on the schedule? Posted 5/11/10:

"Jim will be on a leave of absence for health reasons for one month."

I thought the announcement was odd. If he just hadn't posted for a month no one would have really noticed. They posted this then refused to comment on the problem. If it was stress I would have thought he'd just say he's taking a vacation. He's done it in the past.

[Joseph Hutson]

I wonder if this will have an impact on the schedule? Posted 5/11/10:

"Jim will be on a leave of absence for health reasons for one month."

I thought the announcement was odd. If he just hadn't posted for a month no one would have really noticed. They posted this then refused to comment on the problem. If it was stress I would have thought he'd just say he's taking a vacation. He's done it in the past.

No, it shouldn't have an impact...remember there is a lot more people working at RED than just Jim.

Jim stays quite active on the board and by making this announcement, we know why he isn't online doing his thing. He let us know when he took a vacation out in the Pacific to get married last year as well...

[1]

I heard he was leaving the country for a month to buy up Canon, Sony and Nikon, in order to mothball all their dSLR developments.

[Ian-T]

....oh....so it's true then... :)

[Joseph Hutson]

I heard he was leaving the country for a month to buy up Canon, Sony and Nikon, in order to mothball all their dSLR developments.

Oh yeah, that was on RedInsider.com...wasn't it?

[Joseph Hutson]

BTW, I know this thread is about the Scarlet, I thought I'd share an exclusive video that I was able to shoot of myself recording with Jim's 5K EPIC...


http://vimeo.com/10940788

[Ian-T]

What was the camera used to shoot this video?

[Joseph Hutson]

What was the camera used to shoot this video?

Canon 7D. It was pretty dirty, because it was a spur of the moment thing. I used it to take stills for Landmine (DVXuser/REDuser/ScarletUser) when I asked him if I could take some video (which was forbidden to everyone at RED Day). He said "sure, Joseph" and I flipped it into video mode. I held it with my left hand as I recorded on the EPIC with my right hand...thus it was kinda shaky footage. :hv20-smilie48:

[Joseph Hutson]

Here are some questions I had for RED, along with the answers in reply...

1 What is the focal length of Fixed 2/3" Scarlet?

FF35 Equivalent of 28mm-224mm.


2 If #21 is something, what is it (besides the most talked about feature released on November 31st)? :laugh:

#21 is indeed something and it has a mind of it's own :)

It is still far enough out that you need not worry about it right now. It is however worth the recognition that it mysteriously has received :)


3 What priority will RED One owners have over those who have been saving all funding for Scarlets/tons of modules?

RED ONE owners who have not executed their cameras for Stages 1-3 of the EPIC program will have a short window of priority on Scarlet packages.


4 What is the current weight of the Fixed Scarlet/lens?

Current weight of Fixed Scarlet is just over 4.5 pounds.


5 What kind of success have you had with firing up the Scarlet and taking motion/stills on the Scarlet? (image quality compared to the EPIC/boot up times)

Scarlet 8x is first to be brought up in the lab. It is still in engineering form, not "run around and take pictures form". Think of a mini-Franky. There is alot of effort is going into the autofocus algorithms and lens optimization, and alot of waiting for bits of code to come down from it's big brother. The ASIC, Sensor and Lens work have been complete ( the hard parts ), but there is still alot of firmware work to be done and some minor mechanical changes waiting on tooling.

The images coming off of it are incredible.. remember, the 2/3rds sensor is part of the Mysterium-X family, and you all know what that looks like.


6 Will 120fps recording be possible on the CF-Modules or will another recording device be necessary?

120fps is working on the CF-Module with 64GB cards at a reduced REDCODE rate. The highest REDCODE number you can use with the CF cards are still being determined as optimization work is progressing.


7 Will the read/reset of the 2/3 be on par with the epic?

The read/reset will be on par to the read/reset times of EPIC S35.


8 How much difference in dynamic range should the 2/3 have in comparison with epic?

Compared to the EPIC S35 they will be close. The actual delta changes every day, as both systems continue to independently improve.


9 How does EPIC's delivery date effect the 2/3" Fixed Scarlet's release?

Scarlet Fixed 2/3" is currently behind EPIC and likely will be for the forseable future. Some things are caught up, but as a whole it is a step or two behind it as it inherits a good portion of EPIC's development efforts.


10 What is the biggest change to Scarlet since the last announcement that makes you excited?

The autofocus is actually the most impressive work going on right now... Nobody has seen autofocus on a video camera work like this before, and it is pretty impressive to actually see it work. Of course #21 is pretty incredible. And the (optional) Titanium Lens mount is pretty cool.

[1]

Thanks for that very good info!

Disappointed to hear they're STILL only in engineering stages though.

Crikey!


Double crikey!!



P.S. The problem with slow-to-market technical products, is that there's always new developments that make the "old" versions seem like crap. You HAVE to bite the bullet at one point though and just release the darn thing already. Next year, we'll hear that Scarlet development has been stopped, because they are redesigning it to include SDXC card compatibility, and USB3 support. It's like it never ends. They could of already released the "original" Scarlet last year...you know, the POCKET cam one! It's good that RDC is only wanting the BEST and offering only the BEST, but someone needs to tell them that there's no such thing, and that there's ALWAYS something better around the corner. I've LONG given up on waiting for Scarlet, although, I'm pretty sure I'll buy one once it's available. Not holding breath...

[Halsu]

I've LONG given up on waiting for Scarlet, although, I'm pretty sure I'll buy one once it's available. Not holding breath...

Me, i'm still geeking out over it ,-)

[Ian-T]

Canon 7D. It was pretty dirty, because it was a spur of the moment thing. I used it to take stills for Landmine (DVXuser/REDuser/ScarletUser) when I asked him if I could take some video (which was forbidden to everyone at RED Day). He said "sure, Joseph" and I flipped it into video mode. I held it with my left hand as I recorded on the EPIC with my right hand...thus it was kinda shaky footage. :hv20-smilie48:

LOl..I asked because I actually liked the image and thought it was a camcorder. But thanks.

[Ian-T]

Guys...I believe somehow the Panasonic AF100 is going to steal Scarlet's thunder (actually...I think it already did).

[Duke]

While the AF100 might make a big dent, its still in the dummy/prototype stage at NAB 2010 too. It certainly did steal some attention away from the Scarlet (in limbo.)

If the AF100 truly handles the footage from that sensor better it may be onto something, but we can't test it any more than we can test the Scarlet.

I think it depends on who comes out with a camera with lots of the features we want at an affordable price. The Canon 7D was almost there and sold lots of units but isn't acceptable for the picky broadcasters.

Will the codec in the AF100 introduce any artifacts? Will the aliasing be reduced enough without losing PQ? Will down rezing a 4/3 sensor introduce moire? Or is it another effort to separate use from more money. :hv20-smilie84:

After the 7D I no longer want to be a first adopter. Not for the Scarlet, not for the 5Dmk2 with new firmware and not for the AF100. :hv20-smilie15:

[zephyrnoid]

RE:"P.S. The problem with slow-to-market technical products, is that there's always new developments that make the "old" versions seem like crap. You HAVE to bite the bullet at one point though and just release the darn thing already. Next year, we'll hear that Scarlet development has been stopped, because they are redesigning it to include SDXC card compatibility, and USB3 support. It's like it never ends. They could of already released the "original" Scarlet last year...you know, the POCKET cam one! It's good that RDC is only wanting the BEST and offering only the BEST, but someone needs to tell them that there's no such thing, and that there's ALWAYS something better around the corner. I've LONG given up on waiting for Scarlet, although, I'm pretty sure I'll buy one once it's available. Not holding breath...
__________________

Interesting thoughts. Very true and I doubt too many would disagree with them.
Your train does beg these questions.
-Is Scarlet a concept camera targeting over-rich, under talented collectors of the best toys?
- Is Red Digital well capitalized or do they depend on hype to sell product?
- Is there room for Scarlet in the product mix that's available and in the wings?
- What does it take to make a self-esteem breakthrough that allows us to mature beyond coveting technology toys to simply using them to maximum effect?
I have yet to see an evolutionary process in people. It seems folks are always coveting the next big thing around the corner, even before they've earned the stripes or wherewithal to need it.
I remember with fondness, the days when WE the Photographers ruled. WE decided when it was time for an upgrade.
So we ran our gear into the ground, maximizing the return.
I doubt more than a handful of people have even broken even on Red Digital investments.

[Joseph Hutson]

Your train does beg these questions.
-Is Scarlet a concept camera targeting over-rich, under talented collectors of the best toys?
- Is Red Digital well capitalized or do they depend on hype to sell product?
- Is there room for Scarlet in the product mix that's available and in the wings?
- What does it take to make a self-esteem breakthrough that allows us to mature beyond coveting technology toys to simply using them to maximum effect?
I have yet to see an evolutionary process in people. It seems folks are always coveting the next big thing around the corner, even before they've earned the stripes or wherewithal to need it.
I remember with fondness, the days when WE the Photographers ruled. WE decided when it was time for an upgrade.
So we ran our gear into the ground, maximizing the return.
I doubt more than a handful of people have even broken even on Red Digital investments.

Some interesting questions posed.

1) I think it has the potential to reach that market, however the Scarlet will greatly appeal to those who start off with not so much money, but are still talented individuals wanting to get the best possible tools available.

2) With the success of the RED One and soon the EPIC, workflow becomes easier because the different NLE software companies strive to make things easier and more appealing to the cinema crowd. It is RED...of course hype is going to greatly benefit the Scarlet sales (what company doesn't) but I believe with Jim Jannard at the reins of the company, they have some business sense and the financial backing to keep things running on all cylinders if/when hype was to settle down.

3) If Sony still sells $69,900 cameras HD cameras that have a maximum of 60fps with a 2/3" sensor...do you think there still might be room for a Scarlet that shoots 3K .r3d files one the proven M-X sensor...with a 120fps and a 150fps burst mode? I'll let you decide that one. :)

4) What's nice about the DSMC is that because we have a drive to get the latest/best thing out there possible, they make it easy to upgrade the brains and the whole is system is completely modular.

[Duke]

3) If Sony still sells $69,900 cameras HD cameras that have a maximum of 60fps with a 2/3" sensor...do you think there still might be room for a Scarlet that shoots 3K .r3d files one the proven M-X sensor...with a 120fps and a 150fps burst mode? I'll let you decide that one. :)

No one has ever denied that the Scarlet has great potential. However, you're falling into that same old trap of comparing cameras that Sony, Panny, Canon released years ago to something Red is going to release in the future.

No one is going to be throwing away their cameras from the Cinealta line. Sony started that line in 2000. At the time it was "revolutionary." They still shoot a superb image. However, ten years is about the end of a development cycle. Actually I'm ecstatic to have been able to pick up a used EX1 and Nanoflash for less than $7k total and use it now. :hv20-smilie110: I can get images nearly the same as the F35 now and spent 1/10th their price, with uncompressed four channel audio and MXF files can be edited on nearly every machine.

Just as the new Canon tapeless camera, the Panny AF100, etc show the landscape is changing. I've been saying for the last year and a half or so that the only thing that will matter is what everyone is offering after NAB 2011 (assuming the Scarlet is ready for general release by then.)

How much will a 2/3" Scarlet be worth if the AF100 has that large 4/3 sensor and has little to no moire or aliasing? You can argue for 120fps and RAW, but DOF control with 60fps may be a greater attraction for many buyers. Then there will be the other new cameras, because the big companies don't tell you about their cameras until they're nearly ready to release them.

[cgbier]

I agree with Duke on this one. Whoever needs a camera for a job doesn't wait until Red gets their act together, but rather buys what is on the market now.

[Joseph Hutson]

I agree with Duke on this one. Whoever needs a camera for a job doesn't wait until Red gets their act together, but rather buys what is on the market now.

Ditto on that from me too...

[Halsu]

I agree with Duke on this one. Whoever needs a camera for a job doesn't wait until Red gets their act together, but rather buys what is on the market now.

Or rents - that's what i've been doing all along.

I've shot professionally for about 20 years, and i've never owned a (pro) camera. Scarlet will be my first.

[cgbier]

... or rents. Thanks, Halsu.

[zephyrnoid]

Or rents - that's what i've been doing all along.

I've shot professionally for about 20 years, and i've never owned a (pro) camera. Scarlet will be my first.

Rent VS Buy. The age old dilemma. As a businessman, I'm fortunate enough to know which side of the profitability vs convenience equation ,a particular choice will be.

Been saying this for 35 years now! Here's a quick guide.

LEARNING MODE
Buy used , borrow or rent like new gear to learn on. Taking a class somewhere that has good gear or volunteering at a production facility is the best way to learn at no out of pocket cost at all.

EARNING MODE
Always borrow or rent if there's a budget for it (and yes, I insist in budgeting for it). If the math works out to make it more convenient and profitable to buy, then buy used first, and brand new second.

ENTHUSIAST MODE
Let's face it, many of us are hobbyists. We're learning & playing but not paying bills with our work. Some of us may be retired and have more cash on hand than we know what to do with– so we buy, try, return, upgrade, modify, destroy, gift, replace etc.. new gear to satisfy our entusiasm.

So you want to identify your motives early, then make the appropriate choices.

Some history...
I did not have the wherewithal to buy top class new until I reached the ripe age of 17. Before that, all my gear was really crap or heavily used. I learned a lot about art and crafty in that period and as I migrated from one domain to another, this 'growth model' followed me.

At one point I landed a BIG contract to shoot and doing the math, it ended up being cheaper to buy than to rent, so I used my own capital to fund the needed gear. Then the deal fell through! Luckily, I invested in gear that simply appreciated and I paid it all off in two years of work, rather than one.
The lesson is irrefutable. Renting mitigates all sorts of risk!.

I'm still on my HV20, that I bought for $990. in March 2007.
It still exceeds my professional and personal needs.

Sure I WANT a high end VIDEO camera, with interchangeable primes, accessories AND a high end DSLR to math my still shooting skills, BUT I will not go there unless I have the paying work to justify either my still or video skills.

I'm in the Learning Mode & Enthusiast Mode and my money is SAFE in the bank or earning slightly more than your gear is depreciating :hv20-smilie70: