SCARLET by Red Digital Cinema

[Duke]

I seriously think what has happened is the "pocket camera" Scarlet has become so heavy (solid metal case and huge lens) is the only way to hold it steady while hand held is to have it shoulder mounted.

On the other hand it's so short the EVF has to be way forward to have it balanced on the shoulder.

But, subject to change...

[Erik Bien]

I seriously think what has happened is the "pocket camera" Scarlet has become so heavy (solid metal case and huge lens) is the only way to hold it steady while hand held is to have it shoulder mounted.

Don't forget, we're most probably looking at one of the new RED Super35 prime lenses here; the 2/3" mini-primes (and the fixed-zoom Scarlet) should have a much more compact form factor.

[Duke]

All you Avid haters...........
.....you just have to get through the 6 months of wanting to throw your computer out the window. Once you get past the learning curve, it's a great piece of software. :)

I don't have 6 months to waste on a project. I want it out the door fast. I can switch back and forth between the other NLEs in a few hours.

[Duke]

Don't forget, we're most probably looking at one of the new RED Super35 prime lenses here; the 2/3" mini-primes (and the fixed-zoom Scarlet) should have a much more compact form factor.

Yep, they said something like that on one of the other images, but... the size of the Scarlet is now much closer to the Red One. I assume the weight is too. Some people have shot a Red on the shoulder, but....

I can't find the Scarlet dimentions right now but the Red is about 12"x5.2" and 10lbss for just the body. Add a brick, lens, lcd/evf, etc. and I could see 14-15 lbs. Add rails, mattebox, filters, flags, etc and go up from there.

Personally, I was originally thinking a C mount brain, but now the fixed lens complete package sounds a lot better to me.

[Ian-T]

.....sigh.....whatever happened to the soccer mom pocket cam..???:hv20-smilie50:

[Luxaltor]

.....sigh.....whatever happened to the soccer mom pocket cam..???:hv20-smilie50:

You mount it on the mini-van.

[Erik Bien]

.....sigh.....whatever happened to the soccer mom pocket cam..???:hv20-smilie50:

Modular, remember?

Stripped:
http://www.redgrabs.com/up/1235318509.jpg

http://www.redgrabs.com/up/1236274637.jpg

Pimped:
http://www.redgrabs.com/up/1236095035.jpg

And don't forget, 16mm (http://www.scarletuser.com/showpost.php?p=37234&postcount=10) lenses are generally quite a bit more compact than their S35mm (http://www.angenieux.com/?rub=42&art=45) counterparts ...

[1]

Question: Why does one wear sunglasses to look at an LCD....indoors?

Ratiocination: It ain't actually working! :)

[Ian-T]

Modular, remember?
...
Yeah I know....it's just my way of expressing how much this beast has changed from the original concept. I'm actually kinda digging the look though.

Now....if they would only call me to be a beta tester.

Lol...good observation Mal.

[Duke]

I know I'm not going to be spending $20,000 on some primes. Actually if I was going to put that kind of coin down I'd have bought a Red.

I'd REALLY like to see the fixed 2/3", what it's pictures look like and see what comes with it.

[Erik Bien]

I'd REALLY like to see the fixed 2/3", what it's pictures look like and see what comes with it.

Agreed; with that (and pricing on the 2/3" mini-primes) I should finally be able to get off the fence between the 2/3" fixed and 2/3" cine models.

[Luxaltor]

Yea, it really is all about the expenses of the mini-primes. They will either make or break scarlet for a lot of people.

[David]

Question: Why does one wear sunglasses to look at an LCD....indoors?

Those aren't sunglasses. Those are Oakleys (http://oakley.com/pd/2064)



:hv20-smilie31:

[Duke]

Agreed; with that (and pricing on the 2/3" mini-primes) I should finally be able to get off the fence between the 2/3" fixed and 2/3" cine models.

I've seen a couple of places say this set for $20k:

15mm T2.8
25mm T1.9
35mm T1.9
50mm T1.9
85mm T1.9

which is roughly equivalent to:
50 mm
90mm
120mm
175mm
300mm

That would be a really nice set.

But throw in a brain, brick, lcd, IO, remote, etc. and wouldn't you think about an S35 with still lenses instead? So instead of $26,000, maybe $15,000?

Still, a full kit fixed scarlet sounds good at $3,750.

[benkrebs]

Another prototype pic:



good lord, that looks like a freaking optical illusion.

[Erik Bien]

I've seen a couple of places say this set for $20k:

Right, those are the new S35 primes. The 2/3 mini-primes are a different animal.

6.5mm T1.9
8mm T1.5
16mm T1.5
25mm T1.8
50mm T2.9
70mm T4

Price: TBD

[Dr. Benway]

That camera is getting uglier by the day.

Meccano fetish.

[Dr. Benway]

good lord, that looks like a freaking optical illusion.

It's Reds update on the mottled grey backdrop of the 1980s.

[Luxaltor]

Dear God, Red would be making a massive mistake if they made their 2/3" lens kit 20,000. I'm hoping for 5,000? Or is that a dumb wish?

[Erik Bien]

I'm hoping for 5,000? Or is that a dumb wish?

That, my dear sir, is the $64,000 question (http://www.scarletuser.com/showthread.php?t=1840), or, as the late Rev. Zappa said, "the crux of the biscuit" ...

[Shadow_7]

Another prototype pic:


What's up with the B&W look of all of these samples and such?

And why does the color of the unit keeps changing? Do we have a choice of color on the modules? So once it's tricked out, it'll look more colorful than the images it renders. With said lego / crayola cam.

[Erik Bien]

And why does the color of the unit keeps changing?

According to Jim, the finish on the prototypes is tumbled aluminum (http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?p=380372#post380372) (but expect shipping cameras to be black).

[David]

It's Reds update on the mottled grey backdrop of the 1980s.

I understand that Jim has a very specific dress code for the RED employees as well.


http://www.hv20.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=3932&stc=1&d=1237481557

[Boz]

I seriously think what has happened is the "pocket camera"

That went the way of the "3K for less than $3K". Red abandoned our user base and their promises. But hey they caveat everything by saying "everything is subject to change", so I guess it's all good. :-P

[fishops]

Dear God, Red would be making a massive mistake if they made their 2/3" lens kit 20,000. I'm hoping for 5,000? Or is that a dumb wish?

That might be wishful thinking. It would be difficult to find a decent second-hand set of six DSLR primes at those speeds for 5 grand.

If/when I ever get a Scarlet, I would probably go C-mount and get a couple used, broadcast zoom lenses. You can get some absolutely amazing Fujinon or russian glass for crazy cheap.

[94strings]

The 2/3 cinema scarlet is estimated to sell without lens for $2500. Not bad for a 3K camera I think.

[Boz]

The 2/3 cinema scarlet is estimated to sell without lens for $2500. Not bad for a 3K camera I think.

Depends on how you look at it. From a big picture perspective what you get for a Scarlet (any model) vs the competition is a great value. However, if you are a hobbiest (like me) it went from barely affordable to no longer affordable. Remember the $2500 Scarlet still requires lens(es), viewfinder, recording module, and battery. I can guarantee you that will cost $1000 or more.

[Dr. Benway]

Well after all of this it'd be interesting to see a feature length, or short, shot by a stunning cinematographer. Something that really tests the camera and shows the heights it may reach.

[94strings]

i am a hobbiest like you. I think the 2 offerings for the 2/3rds scarlet will be within my budget. it's hard to decide on the fixed vs. non fixed until final specs are released including final pricing. We can only estimate now that the $3750 fixed kitted and non fixed $3750 budget equivalent, will give us similar cameras. The fixed could be what I settle on. Buy it, shoot, be blown away......oh yeah , i need to upgrade my computer too.

[Boz]

My original point was Red has broken their promise. They are neither delivering a "pocket camera" nor a $3K camera. Sorry, $3750 is 25% more than $3000.

[Erik Bien]

oh yeah , i need to upgrade my computer too.

LOL

Same here! Scarlet had better hurry up and get here already, every day I find some new thing this pathetic six-year-old Gateway can't do (but being a cheapskate I don't want to fork out the dough until I actually need a "telecine suite in a box" ...). :hv20-smilie87:

[-Rogue5-]

For me the fixed lens scarlet is appealing because I know that no matter what I set the lense to, it'll give perfect edge-to-edge, (essentially)vignette/fall-off free image at 3k. I don't know what 35mm Nikon/Canon SLR glass is gonna do on the 2/3" sensor, so it kind of makes it hard to go that route.

I really would like to get the S35 or FF35, but their gonna end up costing just as much as a REDone (and not have the 120fps-150fps option). But I mean, Slumdog Millionaire and Benny Button were both shot on 2/3" cams, so I'm willing to bet 2/3" will offer enough DOF to be cinematic (the same can't be said for 1/3" sensors, unless you use the zoom trick extensively, but some rooms just aren't big enough.)

-Rogue5-

[94strings]

Boz- i don't think Red "broke' their promise. They wanted to deliver on the 3K for 3K , and they still are. The "ready out of the box" camera is still $3K. The minimal set-up scarlet will cost an additional $750. This does add to the basic cost. I dont think Red can deliver the scarlet with all the basic goodies for $3K and that is why it is costing more. Pocket Professional has slimmed down to just Professional and that is what counts more I think. All the best.

[tkmslee]

For me the fixed lens scarlet is appealing because I know that no matter what I set the lense to, it'll give perfect edge-to-edge, (essentially)vignette/fall-off free image at 3k. I don't know what 35mm Nikon/Canon SLR glass is gonna do on the 2/3" sensor, so it kind of makes it hard to go that route.

I really would like to get the S35 or FF35, but their gonna end up costing just as much as a REDone (and not have the 120fps-150fps option). But I mean, Slumdog Millionaire and Benny Button were both shot on 2/3" cams, so I'm willing to bet 2/3" will offer enough DOF to be cinematic (the same can't be said for 1/3" sensors, unless you use the zoom trick extensively, but some rooms just aren't big enough.)

-Rogue5-

I also think that a 2/3" camera using cinema or SLR lenses will allow enough DOF control for cinematic results. A lot of producers still us 16mm to produce music videos and the results are plenty cinematic.

[Boz]

Boz- i don't think Red "broke' their promise. They wanted to deliver on the 3K for 3K , and they still are. The "ready out of the box" camera is still $3K. The minimal set-up scarlet will cost an additional $750.

You are basically contradicting yourself here. How is a camera that has NO means of recording (as in no media slot), comes with NO battery, and NO means of seeing what your shooting (LCD) - in any shape or way "ready out of the box?" Ready out of the box means you open the box, charge the battery, pop in a media card (or tape) and start shooting - you know, like every other camcorder in it's price range and less. To be able to to that you have to spend at least another $750 (prices subject to change).

Scarlet 1.0 was a 'pocket cam. It '3K for LESS than $3K' - it included media reader, battery, lens, and LCD. New Scarlet is not a pocket cam - does not include a media reader, an LCD, nor a battery. So exactly how did they keep their much ballyhooed promise of 3K for $3K? This is the danger of announcing products so far in advance. Had they not announced a price or specs until it was close to production ready, they would not have pissed off so many people.

Don't get me wrong, it's a GREAT piece of hardware at a great price, but it is NOT what they originally promised.

[-Rogue5-]

You are basically contradicting yourself here. How is a camera that has NO means of recording (as in no media slot), comes with NO battery, and NO means of seeing what your shooting (LCD) - in any shape or way "ready out of the box?" Ready out of the box means you open the box, charge the battery, pop in a media card (or tape) and start shooting - you know, like every other camcorder in it's price range and less. To be able to to that you have to spend at least another $750 (prices subject to change).

Scarlet 1.0 was a 'pocket cam. It '3K for LESS than $3K' - it included media reader, battery, lens, and LCD. New Scarlet is not a pocket cam - does not include a media reader, an LCD, nor a battery. So exactly how did they keep their much ballyhooed promise of 3K for $3K? This is the danger of announcing products so far in advance. Had they not announced a price or specs until it was close to production ready, they would not have pissed off so many people.

Don't get me wrong, it's a GREAT piece of hardware at a great price, but it is NOT what they originally promised.

To be honest, I would have much preferred a cheaper cost with only 2k resolution. The main benefit of RED/Scarlet are that it's a RAW format, not that it shoots 3k to 6k... With 2k, you could crop down to 1080p and have a bit of a framing buffer around the outer edge of the shot, or downsize to 1080p and get a bit cleaner picture.

Come to think of it; a 2k/1-120fps camera with a S35 sensor and R3Draw is my desired solution...especially if it were priced, ready to shoot, at $3000. That way I could use Nikon or Canon SLR glass (which I already have), gotten as much DOF as I want, and still have a raw file format to use for colour correction.

-Rogue5-

[Boz]

3K bayer RAW is basically made for 2K (1920 HD) output. In fact, I believe the ability to resolve detail with a 3K bayer sensor is not greater than 2.2K at best. But I agree, the resolution part of the equation is really not the big draw. I would love the camera you suggest or even a 1920 24P RAW camera at a reduced price. Perhaps in a few years Red will go after that market... if they don't someone will, eventually.

[-Rogue5-]

3K bayer RAW is basically made for 2K (1920 HD) output. In fact, I believe the ability to resolve detail with a 3K bayer sensor is not greater than 2.2K at best. But I agree, the resolution part of the equation is really not the big draw. I would love the camera you suggest or even a 1920 24P RAW camera at a reduced price. Perhaps in a few years Red will go after that market... if they don't someone will, eventually.

I think HDSLRs will, sooner or later, end up being able to take twenty-four 1920x1080 raw frames a second (which is less than 2megapixels per frame) . Technically and technologically, if a sensor can continuously take a four, 21mp, raw frames a second (like the Canon 5D Mark II can) than it should easily be capable of taking twenty-four, 2megapixel (aka 2k), raw frames a second without issue.

I don't know why we don't have that yet, and I definitely don't know why someone like Nikon (who doesn't have a video/camcorder market to cannabalize) doesn't exploit it.

-Rogue5-

[Ian-T]

But think about it....if they gave us THAT camera today...where could they possibly go in future camera technology to continue milking us out of our money? They are greedy just like everybody else and need to come up with "other" ways of juicing more greenbacks from us. I'll take a happy compromise for now.....or..Red.

[LoganT]

You know Red, you could give us a 1080P camera for 1500 dollars (complete out of the box). I think that would make most people happy.

[1]

2megapixel (aka 2k)

Your main point disregarding: 2K refers to the [approximate] width in pixels, meaning it could have many different total pixels, depending on which flavour of 2K one is referring to. But yeah, it's all somewhere around 2MP.

[1]

You know Red, you could give us a 1080P camera for 1500 dollars (complete out of the box). I think that would make most people happy.


Exactly what I've said years ago, and it still holds true today.
The thing is, they'd sell too many...

It would be an interesting concept though....a la....Hayek (not Salma).

[saintlobak]

I think Red's problem is not with technology, they've been able to fabricate their sensors really nicely and they work. Having used a couple of Red One cameras, I noticed their main problem is manufacturing. Keep in mind they only made about 7000 Red Ones, and the ones I've tried, had all sorts of manufacturing defects, EVF rod holders with different measurements, some would fit the rods like a breeze but some you really have to force them in. And if you've tried their grip handles, some of them just doesn't work, you can tighten it all the way but they're still loose. Not to mention I have 1001 stories about the Red Brick Charger.

I think hell will break loose when they try manufacturing 100,000 pocket size Scarlets, I can imagine working as a technical support hotline operator for Red.

[Dr. Benway]

...had all sorts of manufacturing defects...

Sounds like there is a job opening there; RED Quality Control.

[saintlobak]

Sounds like there is a job opening there; RED Quality Control.

Hehe, I think it is more to do with experience, Japan has decades of history in manufacturing precision goods. Like how the Nikon F SLR "The Hockey Puck" blew the Germans away with their manufacturing superiority.

[1]

I think hell will break loose when they try manufacturing 100,000 pocket size Scarlets, I can imagine working as a technical support hotline operator for Red.

Aye, I mentioned this back when.

It's a totally different business having a few "expensive" RED ONE cams out there and a massive amount of "cheap" Scarlets.

Customer support will change....inevitably.

[saintlobak]

Aye, I mentioned this back when.

It's a totally different business having a few "expensive" RED ONE cams out there and a massive amount of "cheap" Scarlets.

Customer support will change....inevitably.

Yup, I think they figured out their limitations. I'm like everyone else, would love to own a 3k capable pocket camera with fixed lens, under $4K, my assumption would be a lot of photographers would switch to that instead of still cameras, but seems too good to be true.

[Erik Bien]

Keep in mind they only made about 7000 Red Ones, and the ones I've tried, had all sorts of manufacturing defects, EVF rod holders with different measurements, some would fit the rods like a breeze but some you really have to force them in.

No disrespect, but ... huh? :hv20-smilie50:

"EVF rod holder" ... RED sells a Noga-style articulating arm (http://www.red.com/store/product_detail/141) to mount their EVF, but it mounts with a 1/4x20 screw, and doesn't have anything that grips to a rod ... many owners upgrade to the Element Technica EVF mount (http://www.elementtechnica.com/products/view.php?p=2) which does involve some rods ...

[simulacro]

LOL

Same here! Scarlet had better hurry up and get here already, every day I find some new thing this pathetic six-year-old Gateway can't do (but being a cheapskate I don't want to fork out the dough until I actually need a "telecine suite in a box" ...). :hv20-smilie87:


so which should be the minimum computer requirements (ram, processor) to use the scarlet 2/3 8x fixed zoom?

[Halsu]

so which should be the minimum computer requirements (ram, processor) to use the scarlet 2/3 8x fixed zoom?

Well, i can work with 4K red one material with my almost three year old centrino duo laptop with 3GB ram.

But for any serious work, the more oomph the better.

[Halsu]

Okay, some news on the RED avi workflow: looks like i don't have to write the app i wrote about a few pages earlier, it's already done ;-)

So, here's how to make reference .avi files from red raw footage - these files will look like a regular .avi to all windows applications, but they will actually use the original red raw file, decoded using user's settings.

1. Install AviSynth (http://avisynth.org/), R3D source plugin for AviSynth (http://arenafilm.hu/alsog/avisynthr3d/) , ffdshow (http://sourceforge.net/projects/ffdshow) and R3DtoAVS (http://www.stuudio.ee/r3dtoavs/r3dtoavs.htm) (the r3dtoavs site is slow, you may need to refresh a few times for it to load).

2. Run REDtoAVS, select the root folder that includes the red footage you will wish to process. Set the decoding parameters as you wish - you have access to a lot of them, iso (gain), color balance, resolution etc. The software will create an .avs file for each .r3d file. I prefer having all of them in the root folder, but there's an option to save each file in the same folder as original .r3d files.

3. Next, use makeAVIS.exe that comes with ffdshow to wrap the .avs files created by Red2Avs into .avi files. Unfortunately, at this point there's no batch processing option, but it's still pretty easy and fast even if you need to select the files one by one...

Done. Now you can start editing with the avi files. Quarter or eighth resolution is good for offline editing, half resolution for online (half resolution will output 2K, which is the maximum i.e. vegas can handle). After you're done with offline editing, just repeat steps 2 and 3 with higher settings to access the full resolution red files (the .avi files will be overwritten).

The .avs files are "human readable" text files, so you can also make modifications to a clip's settings simply by opening the .avs file in notepad and typing away...

[africanmarty]

Well, i can work with 4K red one material with my almost three year old centrino duo laptop with 3GB ram.

But for any serious work, the more oomph the better.

you cn wok with the red raw footage in real time on that laptop, really ??

[Ian-T]

I think he's saying that it can be done with an intermediary file 1/4 the size.

[africanmarty]

I think he's saying that it can be done with an intermediary file 1/4 the size.

i understand, i didnt read earlier posts. thanks.

[saintlobak]

so which should be the minimum computer requirements (ram, processor) to use the scarlet 2/3 8x fixed zoom?

You can work with very minimal specs, even if you're working on 4K, cause you don't preview them at 4K all the time, but of course the rendering time would be a lot longer.

[-Rogue5-]

All this talk about proxies and 4k computer requirements has me wanting to learn how to properly do an online edit... Right now I essentially do everything through premiere, but I know this is NOT the way to squeeze out every drop of quality.

For example, with proxies, can you do realtime colour correction (albeit in a preview mode) in order to see how it'll turn out when you render the final 4k online (or 3k in regards to Scarlet)?

-Rogue5-

[booggerg]

Rogue.. yes that is goal of proxy editing.

[Ian-T]

I'm still trying to wrap my head around using proxies. I mean...in Vegas you can select the preview window to show 1/4 size video ao that it can play back much more smoothly. Isn't this the idea behind using proxies?

[Halsu]

I'm still trying to wrap my head around using proxies. I mean...in Vegas you can select the preview window to show 1/4 size video ao that it can play back much more smoothly. Isn't this the idea behind using proxies?

Kinda - but if you read the whole 4K file, just displaying it at quarter resolution won't give you usable playback on a low spec machine. You need to reduce the quality more.

Using the steps from my earlier post, you can essentially use the 4K .r3d file as if it was an 1K avi - on my laptop, i got usable (though not fully realtime) playback on Vegas this way. Media players seem to play the low rez file back in true real time.

When you're ready to render out the final, you rerun the proxy creation software with better settings. Now the quality will be top notch, but performance will be slow...


*** to be exact, the files we're talking here are not proxies (lower resolution copies of the original), but rather reference files (they're using the original file, but reading it in lower resolution). The .avs and .avi files created by the above software are tiny, they're essentially just a link to the .r3d file.

[Duke]

So this way instead of creating a separate file from the 4k file, it's doing something along the lines of reading every 4th pixel?

And just for my information, what kind of machine does it take to handle 4k files natively. (Is that a real word?) Will a quad core, Raid0, with a few terrabytes do it?

[Erik Bien]

I think it's important to point out that for 99% of most projects, 4K (or 3K or 5K) is not the ultimate goal: even the current #1 movie in America (http://www.imdb.com/chart/) finished at 2K. I'm pretty sure Final Cut is presently resolution limited to 2K (although Color can supposedly access the full 12-bit 4K data as you make your adjustments) and as far as I'm aware right now, even the "big iron" grading suites are mostly displaying 2K playback (although at least one replaces the 2K motion version with a 4K still for pixel-perfect pausing, and Assimilate (http://www.reduser.net/forum/showpost.php?p=393669&postcount=7) claim they will show a single "desktop-sized box" feeding a Sony SXRD projector 4K uncompressed real-time at NAB — we probably don't want to know what it will cost). :hv20-smilie84:

One rather counter-intuitive suggestion given in Five Tips to Maintain Sanity in RED Post (http://provideocoalition.com/index.php/mchristiansen/story/5_tips_to_maintain_sanity_in_red_post/) is "leave R3D and 4K behind as soon as possible (and no sooner)." For some projects an offline-online workflow (http://www.studiodaily.com/filmandvideo/currentissue/ER-Goes-Red-in-the-Home-Stretch_10624.html) is appropriate, so you edit from the reference QuickTimes or user-generated proxies first, and do the grading and processing last. For other shows it may make more sense to apply a base look and batch-convert straight to an editing codec (DNxHD, ProResHQ, CineForm, etc.) to make your cut, revisiting your "electronic neg" only for shots that need extra attention (ISO or color balance, noise reduction, reframing, etc.).

[-Rogue5-]

I think it's important to point out that for 99% of most projects, 4K (or 3K or 5K) is not the ultimate goal: even the current #1 movie in America (http://www.imdb.com/chart/) finished at 2K. I'm pretty sure Final Cut is presently resolution limited to 2K (although Color can supposedly access the full 12-bit 4K data as you make your adjustments) and as far as I'm aware right now, even the "big iron" grading suites are mostly displaying 2K playback (although at least one replaces the 2K motion version with a 4K still for pixel-perfect pausing, and Assimilate (http://www.reduser.net/forum/showpost.php?p=393669&postcount=7) claim they will show a single "desktop-sized box" feeding a Sony SXRD projector 4K uncompressed real-time at NAB — we probably don't want to know what it will cost). :hv20-smilie84:

One rather counter-intuitive suggestion given in Five Tips to Maintain Sanity in RED Post (http://provideocoalition.com/index.php/mchristiansen/story/5_tips_to_maintain_sanity_in_red_post/) is "leave R3D and 4K behind as soon as possible (and no sooner)." For some projects an offline-online workflow (http://www.studiodaily.com/filmandvideo/currentissue/ER-Goes-Red-in-the-Home-Stretch_10624.html) is appropriate, so you edit from the reference QuickTimes or user-generated proxies first, and do the grading and processing last. For other shows it may make more sense to apply a base look and batch-convert straight to an editing codec (DNxHD, ProResHQ, CineForm, etc.) to make your cut, revisiting your "electronic neg" only for shots that need extra attention (ISO or color balance, noise reduction, reframing, etc.).

I'm really lost when it comes to this stuff; if you're doing an offline-online edit, then the only problem with keeping it in .r3d should be the file size. I mean, can't a half-decent computer playback native .r3d files? If so, than the only time a comp would have trouble playing it back is when you apply grading and effects (which should only happen on your online, right?) If that's the case, than why would it be necessary to use proxies or do an offline-online edit?

-Rogue5-

[Erik Bien]

can't a half-decent computer playback native .r3d files?

At this point essentially nothing can extract and play out uncompressed 12-bit 4K with no dropped frames in real time from the .R3Ds — for each clip, the camera writes a series of tiny (4 kilobyte) QuickTime reference files along with the .R3D. These aren't playable by themselves (for example if separated from the .R3Ds they reference), they just tell the NLE to decode at (F)ull, (H)alf, (M)edium or (P)roxy resolution (or full rez, one-half, one-quarter and one-eighth). Right now most modest systems are going to struggle playing back anything other than the _M or _P reference QuickTimes in real time.

[Duke]

I think it's important to point out that for 99% of most projects, 4K (or 3K or 5K) is not the ultimate goal: even the current #1 movie in America (http://www.imdb.com/chart/) finished at 2K. I'm pretty sure Final Cut is presently resolution limited to 2K
<SNIP>
One rather counter-intuitive suggestion given in Five Tips to Maintain Sanity in RED Post (http://provideocoalition.com/index.php/mchristiansen/story/5_tips_to_maintain_sanity_in_red_post/) is "leave R3D and 4K behind as soon as possible (and no sooner)."

Interesting stuff Erik, but let me ask a few clarifying questions.

If FCP is limited to 2k, is everyone having to render out all their clips in another format to do their final edits? Does that take an ungodly amount of time?

I'm also wondering, if 2k is the final goal, and it's going into another compressed format, are we really all that hindered (other than color correction) with 1920 images? And if you have the look you want set in camera, extensive CC may not be necessary for them.

I've attached an A1 'day for night' image without CC. (I was shooting stock footage behind the house.)

http://hv20.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=4004&d=1238156844

A1 HDV (and by extension the EX1, HMC150, etc) are suddenly looking much better while waiting for the Scarlet, it's results and workflow.

[Halsu]

If FCP is limited to 2k, is everyone having to render out all their clips in another format to do their final edits? Does that take an ungodly amount of time?

High end projects are finished at a color correction bay, not final cut or other editing software - the editor only sends an EDL (edit decision list), and the whole project is put together using the original raw files. This can be done at 4K, but in real life probably 99.9% of projects are finished in 2K or less.

And yep, high end post can take a lot of time - i.e. color correcting a feature takes weeks, not hours.


are we really all that hindered (other than color correction) with 1920 images?

No. Not even with HDV:s 1440*1080, really (as far as format goes - cameras are another issue). It's pretty OK for most uses.

Scarlet's 3K files are intended for 2K or 1080i/p finish, not for 3K finish. The extra resolution gives some advantages when doing effects work (keying, reframing), and the best possible quality at 2K / HD resolution, but it's not intended as a delivery format.

Same (in general) with Red One's 4K: vast majority of stuff shot with it is intended for 2K output or lower. The extra resolution (4K or 3K) is used for supersampling - scaling an image down gives pristine results: it's the same as using HV20 for web delivery or standard definition television.

[Duke]

And no comment on the foggy trail? LOL

Where I live we don't get much fog so I figured I better capture stock footage for a horror movie to create the foggy evening shots needed.

It's bleachbypass, -3 gain, 1st ND filter and tweak the gamma. I can darken it up in post if I need to. I only mention it because I'm trying to do most of my color correction in camera now instead of post as a faster work flow, which was the OT. Sorry if that's too far off topic. :hv20-smilie32:

[Halsu]

And no comment on the foggy trail? LOL

Sorry ;-)

It's a very nice shot.

[Duke]

I've been jealous of your shots with forests, snow and fog. I'm in desert/chaparral country.

I can do palm trees and hibiscus any day of the week, but fog and forests are hard for me to come by. The white tree on the right isn't birch, it's eucalyptus, a dry desert type tree.

I'll stop the off topic now before I get flamed.

[Duke]

I know Mal has talked several times about bugs in the Red, and expected bugs cropping up in the Scarlet in the future.

I also know Erik Bien and Halsu have talked about their actual Red usage and a virtual lack of bugs. (OK, Red went through 17 builds of their software to get where they are now.)

This fairly recent article (3/16/09) by an AC after a Red shoot with build 17 was educational. He did say lots of nice things about the camera, but from his point of view there are still some of what engineers call "unsupported, unplanned features" in the system.

http://provideocoalition.com/index.php/freshdv/story/on_set_with_red_rant/

My only point is that early adopters of any new hardware or software can expect to send them in for updates on occasion. Also, that Mal is not to be dismissed in this regard. The AC mentioned some of the same things Mal has mentioned.

[Zacatac]

I know Mal has talked several times about bugs in the Red, and expected bugs cropping up in the Scarlet in the future.

I also know Erik Bien and Halsu have talked about their actual Red usage and a virtual lack of bugs. (OK, Red went through 17 builds of their software to get where they are now.)

This fairly recent article (3/16/09) by an AC after a Red shoot with build 17 was educational. He did say lots of nice things about the camera, but from his point of view there are still some of what engineers call "unsupported, unplanned features" in the system.

http://provideocoalition.com/index.php/freshdv/story/on_set_with_red_rant/

My only point is that early adopters of any new hardware or software can expect to send them in for updates on occasion. Also, that Mal is not to be dismissed in this regard. The AC mentioned some of the same things Mal has mentioned.

I just shot a feature on build 16, and no codec errors during the entire shoot

[Erik Bien]

Yeah, it seems B17 has some issues (http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=28292) — I've only worked with cameras on B15 (used on "Knowing") and B16; never saw a codec error, although I recall one boot-hang after a battery change (a second push of the power button and we were back in business). And I will attest Lemo connectors (http://www.lemo.com/index.jsp) are a bit 'ornery' to plug and unplug, but people much smarter about this stuff than I am tell me they're the best that money can buy for carrying power and high-speed data in a single small, rugged, locking connector so it's tough for me to slam RED for using them.

I would never claim the R1 doesn't have its share of problems, gotchas and "known issues," and the information necessary to prepare for, work around or otherwise avoid them, although mostly available on REDuser, definitely needs to be easier to find (to cite just one example, "in-camera playback" is a newish feature which has certainly caused some woe (http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=22582), which is why we've specifically avoided doing it on most shoots I've worked, although I understand the need for it in some cases). REDuser has recently added a special sub-forum (http://www.reduser.net/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=50) for "important threads updated by moderators" which should eventually help, although it's still pretty barren.

However I absolutely sympathize with camera assistants who expect to be able to get up to speed by reading the Ops Manual (http://www.red.com/support) and prepping the rig with a tech at the rental house as they would any other camera. They shouldn't have to slog through a busy webforum with a notably bad search engine to figure out which features and firmware builds are "solid" and which should really be labeled "use at your own risk."

[Ian-T]

It's a small company. I call it growing pains...so it will definitely get better. Hopefully Scarlet will not have a lot of these issues.

[Halsu]

I have never personally operated red one - there's always been a red owner / experienced red photographer on the shoot. It might very well be that they just know intuitively how to not run into bugs... we did have a playback issue in one shoot, 25p footage that also had audio refused to preview properly. I recall it was with build 17, but not sure. Didn't really slow us down much, and i was busy doing my own job...

[Duke]

Even big camera companies do revisions, look at the HVX200b to get rid of motion smear, or the 5DM2 firmware update to get rid of black pixels. But for Panny and Canon the revisions are relatively rare.

Then companies like Microsoft have patch after patch and release operating systems to use their clients as guinea pigs.

Some would find Reds revisions a comfort as they haven't been abandoned after their purchase.

[-Rogue5-]

Even big camera companies do revisions, look at the HVX200b to get rid of motion smear, or the 5DM2 firmware update to get rid of black pixels. But for Panny and Canon the revisions are relatively rare.

Then companies like Microsoft have patch after patch and release operating systems to use their clients as guinea pigs.

Some would find Reds revisions a comfort as they haven't been abandoned after their purchase.

If anything I think RED has done revisions better than most other camera companies -- they update/fix/upgrade more often, but it's generally free. Canon and Panasonic do revisions that require a repurchase of the entire camera -- XL H1>XL H1s, XH-A1>XH-A1s, XH-G1>XH-G1s, HV20>HV30>HV40, DVX100>DVX100a>DVX100b, etc. And I'd also say that (with the REDone anyway) the additions were more significant than these other cameras I mentioned.

-Rogue5-

[Maxwell]

Here are the specs for the Scarlet, which is said to ONLY cost $3000:
ADMIN TRUNCATION

Amazing, full manual control.

[1]

Max, you don't need to quote the WHOLE message you're replying to.

Also, your posting frequency reminds me of American cheese: too much quantity & too little quality! :hv20-smilie81:

[Halsu]

Fun facts

Software (that i know of) that directly supports native red files:

Free:
Redcine (has pretty good color correction tools too, BTW)
Virtual Dub (with a free plugin)
Avisynth (with a free plugin)
Windows Explorer (with a free shell extension)

Paid:
Premiere CS4
After Effects CS4
Avid
Final Cut

...

Vegas doesn't currently have direct .r3d support, but that's something we should pester Sony about, not Red. As both the red SDK and Vegas SDK are available, the solution could come from a 3rd party too. In any case, it's just a matter of time.

I know it's been mentioned elsewhere, but i thought i'd add the info to this thread too: Vegas Pro 9 will have native .r3d support, so "matter of time" was pretty quick.

So, the list of paid editing software that natively support RED footage is now as follows, AFAIK:

Premiere CS4
After Effects CS4
Avid
Final Cut
Sony Vegas Pro 9

There's also Scratch - color correction/mastering bay that is RED native (but pretty expensive, and as such out of the reach of individuals).

Red also announced Red Rocket at NAB - it's an acceleration board that will enable real time playback at full 4K resolution - estimated price is under 4000 bucks.

[booggerg]

Even big camera companies do revisions, look at the HVX200b to get rid of motion smear, or the 5DM2 firmware update to get rid of black pixels. But for Panny and Canon the revisions are relatively rare.

Then companies like Microsoft have patch after patch and release operating systems to use their clients as guinea pigs.

Some would find Reds revisions a comfort as they haven't been abandoned after their purchase.

Gosh you know how silly it is to compare Red revisions to Microsoft products? Do you know how much more complicated Windows is than Red one?

[Halsu]

I know it's been mentioned elsewhere, but i thought i'd add the info to this thread too: Vegas Pro 9 will have native .r3d support, so "matter of time" was pretty quick.

It's available now - works pretty darn well too. Cool.

[dbattle]

Interesing times, I was the Key Grip on a Movie, "Amanda" just completed in Indianapolis. We used the "Red", before that, the commercials I worked were shot on a Red, this week another commercial on a Red.

I have begun to wonder if Sony, Canon, and Panasonic are going to take this lying down or if their going to rise to the Red and the Gang challenge. I would be extremely concerned about the Market share thats being vacuumed up by the sunglass peopleif I were those guys.:hv20-smilie71:

[Marshallator]

Though Red is starting to dominate the pro market, it doesn't have the prosumer and consumer market slice. Scarlet may very well change that, we'll have to wait and see.

[dbattle]

Though Red is starting to dominate the pro market, it doesn't have the prosumer and consumer market slice. Scarlet may very well change that, we'll have to wait and see.


I just cant see Canon and Sony Panasonic JVC et al rolling over and letting the market, at any of the levels, be totally dominated by a newcomer.I dont care who wins, its just very interesting from a business standpoint.

[Marshallator]

Can someone refresh my memory on the difference between T and F stops? I'm curious what the T 1.5 would compare to on a F stop rating.

[jabloomf1230]

Though Red is starting to dominate the pro market, it doesn't have the prosumer and consumer market slice. Scarlet may very well change that, we'll have to wait and see.

Does Red really dominate the digital cinematography market? Silicon Imaging and Red both have capable low end (pricewise) pro entries, but I thought that Red might be "dominating" the indie type market, rather than digital cinematography in general.

[Erik Bien]

Can someone refresh my memory on the difference between T and F stops? I'm curious what the T 1.5 would compare to on a F stop rating.

Here's a good thread on F-stops vs. T-stops (http://www.scarletuser.com/showthread.php?t=882). In a nutshell, F-stops are a ratio of aperture size vs. focal length, while T-stops measure the actual light transmitted through the lens.

Where did you see T 1.5? That would be a very fast lens (the new RED Pro Primes are T 1.8, and so-called "Super Speed (http://cinematechnic.com/resources/zeiss_super_speed_f1,2_lenses.html)" lenses are T 1.3). The last I remember fixed-lens Scarlet's zoom was supposed to be T 2.8, which should put it around f/2.6.

[-Rogue5-]

Here's a good thread on F-stops vs. T-stops (http://www.scarletuser.com/showthread.php?t=882). In a nutshell, F-stops are a ratio of aperture size vs. focal length, while T-stops measure the actual light transmitted through the lens.

Where did you see T 1.5? That would be a very fast lens (the new RED Pro Primes are T 1.8, and so-called "Super Speed (http://cinematechnic.com/resources/zeiss_super_speed_f1,2_lenses.html)" lenses are T 1.3). The last I remember fixed-lens Scarlet's zoom was supposed to be T 2.8, which should put it around f/2.6.

Is that supposed to be t2.8/f2.6 the entire zoom? With a 2/3" sensor, I was kind of hoping for f1.8/f2.0 in order to be able to get shallow DOF when needed... you know, at 4x zoom (its 8x, so I'm saying half-way through) with f2.0 and ISO100, you'd have a pretty shallow plane... or you could rock out with f5.6-8 at the widest zoom and ISO640 for a pretty deep plane. Know what I mean?

-Rogue5-

[Marshallator]

If I'm not mistaken, several of the Red mini primes are rated at T 1.5.

I really hope there fairly inexpensive, cause they sure sound sweet.

With a T 1.5, you would be able to get a decent DOF, even with a 2/3 sensor right?

[Erik Bien]

Whoops, my bad: I guess fixed-zoom Scarlet's lens is now supposed to be T2.4 (http://reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=23184) (and AFAIK non-ramping, i.e. fixed throughout the zoom range). As for the DoF difference between 2/3" and Super35, it's approximately 2.5 stops (http://www.reduser.net/forum/showpost.php?p=353237&postcount=56).

[Halsu]

Does Red really dominate the digital cinematography market? Silicon Imaging and Red both have capable low end (pricewise) pro entries, but I thought that Red might be "dominating" the indie type market, rather than digital cinematography in general.

The high end market out there is quite small - i wouldn't be surprised if Red's 5000+ units sold in last two years is more than all other manufacturers combined in the same time period.

[Duke]

Whoops, my bad: I guess fixed-zoom Scarlet's lens is now supposed to be T2.4 (http://reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=23184) (and AFAIK non-ramping, i.e. fixed throughout the zoom range). As for the DoF difference between 2/3" and Super35, it's approximately 2.5 stops (http://www.reduser.net/forum/showpost.php?p=353237&postcount=56).

If that's right wide open on the fixed is about the same as T5 on the S35, but wide open isn't usually the best. So maybe a couple clicks past that, right?

[szimmer]

I am looking for a new camcorder with the price range being between 3000 and 4000 grand.

The scarlet sounds great but it is still not out? This thread started more than a year ago?

Any release date yet?

Thanks,

Simon

[1]

Look at the Canon 5D MkII DSLR with 1080p video (and manual control starting tomorrow).

Scarlet isn't quite as amazing as it was when it was initially "suggested" by RDC.

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/583953-REG/Canon_2764B003_EOS_5D_Mark_II.html/BI/2685/KBID/3590

[szimmer]

Actually I saw it for the FIRST TIME today and almost passed out.

The 5D is amazing!!!!!!!!!!!! But the 4GB limit for now seems a bit annoying. 12 minutes is not very long.

But the results speak for themselves. Very amazing.

Scarlet sounds pretty cool too though it seems quite unclear when it will be coming out.

Simon

[Duke]

Scarlet sounds pretty cool too though it seems quite unclear when it will be coming out.

That is the subject to a lot of speculation. Red says the fall of 2009. Some say April 2010 for NAB. Others think fall 2010.

In part, it depends on which model of Scarlet as they will not be released at the same time. Also, when Red Digital Cinema Cameras first released the Red One, they had some delays. Even after the release they had some corrections to issue.

If they have one camera ready for fall 2009, some people will say they have met their promise. If they don't have them ready for sale in quantity until fall 2010, others will say that's the true date even if that one camera was ready in the fall of 2009.

At this point no one knows. I think a lot of answers will be partially true. I suppose it's a glass half full or half empty sort of description.
Duke

[-Rogue5-]

Converting the 5D's 30p to 24p actually offers decent looking results (I'd argue as good as the HV20s), however, it takes a hour per minute to convert even on a half-decent computer (mac C2D 2.2GHz, 2gigs or RAM).

Also, areas of the image do get rather dirty with macroblockage and there is the 4Gig limit and audio to worry about... However, full frame 35 sensor, interchangeable lenses, and amazing low-light performance for around $3000 are pretty major positives. Plus I'd venture that the resale value of the 5Dmk2 wouldn't be too bad, so come Scarlet time, if it's really all that and a bag of chips, you could potentially sell it for only a slight monetary loss.

I'm trying to figure it out right now if it's worth it and it's still rather difficult... The debate becomes even worse when you consider the GH1... TWO GH1s for the price of one 5DmkII? You'd get rid of a lot of the 5D's problems (24p, audio is a little better on the GH1, etc.), but you adopt others (sensor is awkward size, meaning lenses need adapters, codec is lacking, lowlight isn't as good, etc.) What a pain in the a$$.

-Rogue5-

[1]

...audio is a little better on the GH1, etc....


What's the specs on either, do you know?
Never bothered finding out what the 5D MKII does in that respect.

[-Rogue5-]

What's the specs on either, do you know?
Never bothered finding out what the 5D MKII does in that respect.

Both have audio gain (baaaaddddd), but the MKII is mono and the GH1 is stereo... although, now that you asked, I may have got that in reverse (which would mean I was wrong.)

-Rogue5-

[bobafet1]

Ive never seen so much hype from something that has yet to be released for years already. It seems like everyone says they are going to be the next Speilberg as soon as they get their hands on the Scarlett. I'm majoring in marketing and I can say that the guys at Red sure know how to sell a product. I should drop out of school and just learn from them. :hv20-smilie77:

I think I'll make some films with the HV30 so that I will at least have a reel done and maybe enter some film contests by the time the Scarlett comes out.

[Snazzy Flapper]

Blasphamer! How dare you not worship at the altar of the RED!

[bobafet1]

Blasphamer! How dare you not worship at the altar of the RED!

LOL-yes, I figured I'd sound like someone who doesn't have "faith" that one day we will get our hands on this snake oil of a product...

Or maybe I have this all wrong and I should be optomistic about this..I guess the more time it takes for this product to be released the more time I have to save more cash and it wouldn't be a big deal dropping several thousands on a camera that will make up for my lack of story telling, camera techniques, and overall lack of talent..

I know..I know..I'm going to hell for talking like this...bring on the flame..
:hv20-smilie68:

[szimmer]

I agree with you. I was caught up in the hype too. But then I went too RA (Red Anonymous) for a few months and today I bought my first Panasonic:

HMC-150

:):):):):):):):)

And I feel great!

Simon

[Duke]

LOL-yes, I figured I'd sound like someone who doesn't have "faith" that one day we will get our hands on this snake oil of a product...

I know..I know..I'm going to hell for talking like this...bring on the flame..
:hv20-smilie68:

You've just summarized the last few years of posts that are either:

a) It's vaporware until you can show me results.

b) Red and Scarlet will cure your acne, slice your bread and make you shoot like Spielberg.

c) Shoot with something else and decide later.

Or some combination thereof. :hv20-smilie31:

[bobafet1]

I wonder if their issue is financial in nature and they are just marketing this thing as the next best camera so they can attract investors and throw more money into their designs. What gets me is that the only photos I've seen of the Scarlett are photoshop images of what the Scarlett is going to look like. I almost got suckered into saving the cash for this but I've been pretty happy with my HV30 so far. I recommend any amateur film maker to read "Rebel Without a Crew". The book is the diary of Robert Rodriguez and he basically explains how he made films with the cheapest equipment and made do with what he was able to get his hands on.

[Erik Bien]

I wonder if their issue is financial in nature and they are just marketing this thing as the next best camera so they can attract investors and throw more money into their designs.

Since the company was founded by a multi-billionaire, their first product has become the most popular digital cinema camera on the planet, and they aren't taking deposits or reservations for any of the upcoming models, that strikes me as unlikely.


What gets me is that the only photos I've seen of the Scarlett are photoshop images of what the Scarlett is going to look like.

Then you haven't been looking in the right places (http://www.scarletuser.com/showthread.php?t=2906).

[bobafet1]

Then you haven't been looking in the right places (http://www.scarletuser.com/showthread.php?t=2906).[/QUOTE]

Do you have any links with photos of the camera outside of the plexiglass box or in the hands of someone who has actually used it?

[Maxwell]

Who said they wanted to shoot like Spielberg? Didn't they film Speed Racer on one of these Red Cameras?

[Erik Bien]

Didn't they film Speed Racer on one of these Red Cameras?

It was shot mostly on the SONY F23 (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0811080/technical) (with a Phantom (http://www.visionresearch.com/index.cfm?sector=htm/files&page=camera_HD_new) used for slow-mo).

[Maxwell]

Oh wow thats a cool camera. How do you know all this stuff?

[Duke]

The book is the diary of Robert Rodriguez and he basically explains how he made films with the cheapest equipment and made do with what he was able to get his hands on.

Money isn't an issue for the reasons Erik said. Red does have a store in Lake Forest, and they've finally gotten all caught up on their back orders of the Red One.

I think the more important comment is that after a certain point, the camera doesn't make anywhere near as much difference as the story you have to tell, the quality of the actors and audio.

The HV20 has enough ompf to shoot a real movie if you fight with it enough to regain a semblence of manual control over it. It might be more accurate to say that with an XH-A1 or better, you'll get resolution just a tad better than 16mm, and several movies have been shot on 16mm and blown up to 35mm for the big screen.

And lets not forget Crank 2, 28 days, Open Water, etc. which give us beacons of light that our cheapy video cameras just might, if luck smiles on us, get us on the big screen.

[Rumple]

Not to mention March of the Penguins and Leaving Las Vegas.

[Rumple]

Also, El Mariachi was great especially considering it's budget!

[1]

Also, El Mariachi was great especially considering it's budget!

I see red!
No offense, but that logic is beyond me, although I see it often mentioned.

Could you say then: Lord Of The Rings SUCKED EGGS, considering its budget? ...i.e. was LOTR 50 times better than THE STING? It cost 50 times more to make, so does it have to be 50 times better in order to be equal?
This logic makes no sense to me....:

Any film should stand on its own two feet, regardless of budget or whatever.

It's either good, bad or indifferent.

If it's good, it's good. If it's bad it's bad.

It's not too dissimilar with footage clips here on hv20 which are posted with a disclaimer: "I'm a student and only 14...yadda yadda yadda...." and inevitably the reply is always: "That was great....considering you're only 14..."

"CRAP!", I say;
it's either good or bad, or soso. Age, money, handicap, gender, race.....nothing like that matters!

Sorry to rip your well meant post to shreds! :)

[Rumple]

What I mean is compare it to a higher budget film that could afford to capture sound during shooting, used 35mm instead of 16mm, didn't have to use the same extras and props over and over again, didnt require the director to drive a bus leaving a camera on a tripod clearly viewable in the rearview mirror and its still a pretty good film!

What I should have said is, despite its faults due to its budget constraints, its still a pretty good movie...

[Rumple]

Also, opinions on others' work is completely subjective 1, so lets not forget that one mans crap is another mans gold.

^_^

p.s. I'd hate to be your kid:
"Daddy, look at this drawing I did!"
"Thats crap! Look at the lack of perspective!!! What is that a house or a person??"

Just kidding 1, we all love ya.

[bobafet1]

Also, opinions on others' work is completely subjective 1, so lets not forget that one mans crap is another mans gold.

^_^

p.s. I'd hate to be your kid:
"Daddy, look at this drawing I did!"
"Thats crap! Look at the lack of perspective!!! What is that a house or a person??"

Just kidding 1, we all love ya.

LOL...you pretty much settled it.

[1]

LOL,
but actually Rumple, I think you missed my point;

Hypothetical convo with kid:

"Daddy, look at this drawing I did for school homework."

Rumple response:
"That's GREAT considering the little time you had because you did it on the bus going to school, and considering having had no sleep because you stayed up all night playing video games!"
:hv20-smilie81:

No qualification or excuses necessary for me: it's either good or bad (or in between) in my opinion; it's never bad BUT because of the circumstances under which it was made it's suddenly good?

[Duke]

The sort of exception is if it's fairly good but has a couple of glaring defects.
The low budget movie might be a great story with a few poor shots, or some rough audio.

Primer comes to mind. Brother from Another Planet, High Fidelity, Billy Elliot, etc. But they showed their chops and went on to bigger and better things. Still good, still worth watching, but not polished. Bad in a few ways. Lots of first movies by people that have talent.

[-Rogue5-]

This post is probably more for Erik Bien (as I know you've fooled around with a RED1 first hand), but I finally had a chance to mess around with some .r3d files tonight in order to see what all the fuss is about with redcode raw.

Maybe I'm missing something but I didn't see that much difference in controlability between it and the "baked-in" files that come from HDV when transcoded to ProRes or Cineform and used in Color, Magic Bullet or AE. YES, the resolution was much higher (which resulted in less macroblocklage), but the difference in lattitude wasn't as massive as I was hoping for or expecting. Not only that, but the render times coming out of RedAlert/RedCine were friggen massive compared to the (almost realtime) transcoding to prores or cineform... Was I doing something wrong?

-Rogue5-

[Snazzy Flapper]

Cameras are tools, nothing more. A great fly fisherman can catch fish with a crappy Wal Mart fly pole. He doesn't have to have his graphite $1000 custom jobbie.

I have a good friend with a RED. We used it for a shoot. It's nice, but it often got in the way of telling the story. Story is king, not the RED.

[Duke]

Story is king, not the RED.

Amen. Especially when you have people jumping to a Red (or Scarlet) that aren't that experienced with film and having 'only' manual controls, instead of a choice of manual an automatic. Personally I love one touch instant focus, etc.

My assumption is this is also why we've seen a couple of posts from Jim about exposure. It wasn't that swim suit on his honeymoon, it was those new operators that now have to keep track of such things.

It is a professional camera after all. But on the low end of the Indie spectrum the director, may be the DP, operator, grip and gaffer. It's easy to forget something in the 'fog of battle.'

If my understanding is correct the fixed lens scarlet will have some of those integrated options that the other cameras won't have.

[Halsu]

Not only that, but the render times coming out of RedAlert/RedCine were friggen massive compared to the (almost realtime) transcoding to prores or cineform... Was I doing something wrong?

Probably not - hard to say without seeing what you did ;-)

First of all, 4K footage has a lot of data: it WILL take much more time to render than HDV, there's no avoiding that. To me, it feels surprising it renders even as fast as it does...

The Red One should have roughly two stops more latitude than HV20, EX1 etc. cameras. That's quite a lot, but extracting all that latitude requires proper exposure in the first place, as well as handling the footage correctly in post. The difference isn't that big in scenes where the HDV cameras are adequate: if the scene falls well within the range these cameras can capture and in-camera color balance yields usable results, there's no big demand for added dynamic range or more control in post. The difference starts to show on more difficult conditions: high contrast scenes, and scenes which require extensive color correction or chroma key etc. In these cases access to raw sensor data is very, very welcome indeed.

An oldie but goldie (i've posted this a few times earlier): This test we did a year or two ago or so sums the difference pretty well, even in small web size video files... here's what can be extracted from shadows with HV20 and RED ONE when they're exposed for highlights on a high contrast scene:

http://eki.pp.fi/digivideo/RED/HV20_Dynamiikkatesti_LOW.mov
http://eki.pp.fi/digivideo/RED/RED_Dynamiikkatesti_LOW.mov

There's three versions of the same scene for both cameras: adjusted for exterior exposure, a compromise and for interior exposure. HV20 had my 35mm adapter and a Nikon 50mm lens, so it actually has shallower DOF than RED in this scene.

As you can see, when bringing up the exposure in post, even HV20 does actually have pretty decent data: you can see quite a lot in the shadows... but the footage is very noisy, and the colors are muted. The red footage on the other hand is still usable, even after this extreme correction.

[Duke]

Not only that, but the render times coming out of RedAlert/RedCine were friggen massive compared to the (almost realtime) transcoding to prores or cineform...

Keep in mind that 4k is more than double 1920 image in width, and when you double the resolution in width you quadruple the data. And that's before you include any extra color data.

[Ian-T]

....all of a sudden the prospect of owning a Red camera sounds intimidating...

Thanks Duke :hv20-smilie122:

[Duke]

Some of the most recent pictures posted by Jim J. Doesn't this first one remind you of a lot of our DIY rigs?

http://www.redgrabs.com/up/1244739795.jpg

And why three cameras? Two cameras at 4k for 3D isn't enough?

http://www.redgrabs.com/up/1244737305.jpg

[-Rogue5-]

Keep in mind that 4k is more than double 1920 image in width, and when you double the resolution in width you quadruple the data. And that's before you include any extra color data.

Yeah, I know... and I mean it looks a lot better and is way more flexible in CC... the problem is it takes a lot of time and HDD space and the average consumer/prosumer/videographer won't realize they bit off a lot more than they could chew until after spending the $3750+ for the fixed-lens. With RED (or any RAW for that matter) your post workflow time and HDD requirements will at least double (which puts a huge burden on the average consumer.)

Try it out -- go to red-relay.com (or whatever it is) and download a few sample .r3d clips, then download REDalert/RedCine/etc and fiddle around with the files. I was less than impressed with the lattitude, but it could be because the test files I got were not exposed ideally.

-Rogue5-

[thatdylankid]

this may already be on here but i JUST seena link for it posted today ..

http://www.camcorderinfo.com/content/Red-Digital-Cinema-Unleashes-the-Scarlet-34906.htm#

anyway, i think im going to start saving for this......NOW>

what kind of computer would it take to edit 3k video smoothly?

ive got a core i7 920, 6gbs of ddr3 and a gts 250 and im thinking it might not be able to touch it....

[tiberghv]

An oldie but goldie (i've posted this a few times earlier): This test we did a year or two ago or so sums the difference pretty well, even in small web size video files... here's what can be extracted from shadows with HV20 and RED ONE when they're exposed for highlights on a high contrast scene:

http://eki.pp.fi/digivideo/RED/HV20_Dynamiikkatesti_LOW.mov
http://eki.pp.fi/digivideo/RED/RED_Dynamiikkatesti_LOW.mov

.

The contrast dynamic range is not that different i think.
I would have think it was much bigger.
What do you think ?

[Erik Bien]

Some of the most recent pictures posted by Jim J. Doesn't this first one remind you of a lot of our DIY rigs?

http://www.redgrabs.com/up/1244739795.jpg

Considering I see in that photograph:

A Preston (http://www.prestoncinema.com/products_FI+Z.html) wireless follow focus controller and motor
An ARRI Zeiss prime (http://www.zeiss.com/cine) lens
An Oconnor 2575 (http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/600473-REG/OConnor_C1234_0002_ULTIMATE_2575D_FLUID_HEAD.html) head (mounted on the end of a very beefy jib you can see sticking out below PJ's left elbow; he isn't that butch)

not to mention the clip on matte box and RED's own battery, rails, handle and 7-inch LCD, you must move in much more well-heeled DIY indie circles than I do! :hv20-smilie79:

[1]

The MOST impressive thing about that picture is how much weight he lost.
Good on him!!!




http://www.redgrabs.com/up/1244739795.jpg

[Erik Bien]

Undoubtedly! (Although personally, I still find seventy-odd-thousand-dollars worth of spanking state-of-the-art übertechnofetishnerdgasm camera gear more arousing than another guy with a beard, no matter how svelte he might be ...). :hv20-smilie03:

[1]

Indeed! :)

[Duke]

Considering I see in that photograph:

A Preston (http://www.prestoncinema.com/products_FI+Z.html) wireless follow focus controller and motor
An ARRI Zeiss prime (http://www.zeiss.com/cine) lens
An Oconnor 2575 (http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/600473-REG/OConnor_C1234_0002_ULTIMATE_2575D_FLUID_HEAD.html) head (mounted on the end of a very beefy jib you can see sticking out below PJ's left elbow; he isn't that butch)

not to mention the clip on matte box and RED's own battery, rails, handle and 7-inch LCD, you must move in much more well-heeled DIY indie circles than I do! :hv20-smilie79:

Considering their total budget vs the cost of the camera and accessories, compared to our total budget vs the cost of our cameras and accessories, I think our guys have way more of their budget into the camera and gear. :hv20-smilie03:

Also, I don't think I would have the guts to dangle that rig on the end of a rig without an awful lot of insurance. :hv20-smilie15:

[Zacatac]

this may already be on here but i JUST seena link for it posted today ..

http://www.camcorderinfo.com/content/Red-Digital-Cinema-Unleashes-the-Scarlet-34906.htm#

anyway, i think im going to start saving for this......NOW>

what kind of computer would it take to edit 3k video smoothly?

ive got a core i7 920, 6gbs of ddr3 and a gts 250 and im thinking it might not be able to touch it....

You are a year behind... www.red.com/epic_scarlet

:hv20-smilie79::hv20-smilie79::hv20-smilie79:

[chris_b]

I read somewhere the next RED announcement will be able to transform itself from a full sized HD camera with Panavision Lenses, into a mobile phone, with touchscreen, full MacOSX, and also an optional module to attach an espresso machine that turns into a director's viewfinder. Bundled for under $2000, and ready in a couple of months.


here ya go.

http://provideocoalition.com/images/uploads/iPhoneRig1_main.jpg



lol....

[Duke]

One the other hand I have a new project that I want to start principle photography in December.

Right now I can lock in some Red One rental prices for cheap. However, no matter how cheap a Red rental is still the cost of a Scarlet.

If I really 'knew' the Scarlet would be available, really available I'd wait. But at this point in time, it looks like I'll be plunking money down for services rather than reusable equipment. Argh. :hv20-smilie36:

[1]

Haven't been keeping up with the latest: are they still going to come out with the Scarlet?

[zephyrnoid]

But at this point in time, it looks like I'll be plunking money down for services rather than reusable equipment. Argh.
And this is the 100% correct business strategy for a deep/long recession. By the time that the recession is over in Mid 2013:
- patiently waiting will have cash to jump on the cream of the R&D crop's results. Hopefully that's Scarlet or it could be something else.
- more VC money will enter the pipeline, justifying big ticket expenditures
- camera developers will have had 2 years to FINALLY bring to market products that make sense for the shooter.
- the mass storage biz will be in better sync at a lower price point
- the nle biz will have gone through a revision or two.
Waiting has it's benefits, unless you have paying customers that will cover the capital investments now.
Keep in mind that if you make your living from Video, you can expense up to $10,000 in the first year or depreciate over 3 and then you can carry net losses back for 3 years and forward for ?
It's all good when you shoot pro :hv20-smilie70:

[Halsu]

Haven't been keeping up with the latest: are they still going to come out with the Scarlet?

Sure. The first one in the new line of cameras to be released is Epic-X, which is a special model just for current Red One owners. After that, Scarlet's next as far as i know.

They've been showing "almost working / final" Epic prototype at IBC (everything except the ASIC is done now, they say):

http://reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=34848

Aside the brain itself, all the accessories are the same for Scarlet and Epic, so there's a lot of working "scarlet stuff" there actually...

[Sagefox]

this may already be on here but i JUST seena link for it posted today ..

http://www.camcorderinfo.com/content/Red-Digital-Cinema-Unleashes-the-Scarlet-34906.htm#

anyway, i think im going to start saving for this......NOW>

what kind of computer would it take to edit 3k video smoothly?

ive got a core i7 920, 6gbs of ddr3 and a gts 250 and im thinking it might not be able to touch it....

My comp is lesser, and can edit native redcode with CS4's quarter resolution feature. That is live HD editing with no proxies needed. Then render at full res. Your comp should handle it with ease.

[Duke]

I've been wondering which way to go. $1,700 for CS4 (I'm not a student.)

Or $999 for Neo 4k.

[Halsu]

I've been wondering which way to go. $1,700 for CS4 (I'm not a student.)

Or $999 for Neo 4k.

Asking that kind of money for a codec is pretty ridiculous. And besides, what would you even need it for?

CS4 bundle ain't cheap either, but you do get a heck of a lot of value for that money.

[Duke]

Getting sort of OT, but my thought was that Neo4k would let me use Vegas, CS3 and other programs. The color 'looks' in Vegas, plus some other things can be handy. Plus using a lot less disk space.

Also, it's been smoothed out now, but I heard CS4 had some stability problems when it first came out. I've never had that problem with CS3.

[Halsu]

Getting sort of OT, but my thought was that Neo4k would let me use Vegas, CS3 and other programs. The color 'looks' in Vegas, plus some other things can be handy.

I don't really understand what exactly you mean by "let you use": if you're talking about .r3d Red camera originals, both Vegas and CS4 can edit the footage natively, no conversion is needed.


Plus using a lot less disk space.

Nope, you'd be using more disk space: you would of course want to keep your original files, the intermediate files would be an addition to that.

[Duke]

CS3 and Vegas Pro 8 can't handle them natively.

[1]

Sure. The first one in the new line of cameras to be released is Epic-X.....


thanks halsu, for the info.

[Zacatac]

Epic X and one of the Scarlets is in line to be released first, I think the 2/3rds cinema, then a break to get the larger sensors out, and finally FF35 Monstro..


And if you want a camera all to yourself, Jannard stated a few months back that for 300k they will design you a camera to all your specs... which I'm surprised no one has taken them up on that offer :D

[1]

...Jannard stated a few months back that for 300k they will design you a camera to all your specs... which I'm surprised no one has taken them up on that offer :D

Probably because few can wait 5 years! :hv20-smilie81:

[Duke]

(Yes, I know it's a wide lens. And that it's the minimum configuration in a Red.)

Couldn't figure out where to ask, but can the 18-50mm Red zoom manage good DOF control on the Red One? Not paper thin, but like a 2-2.5' zone in focus. I want to separate people from the back ground, not a nose from a face. LOL

Maybe Halsu or Erik or someone that uses a Red knows.

[Erik Bien]

can the 18-50mm Red zoom manage good DOF control on the Red One?

Yes, definitely. It's a T3 (f/2.8), most probably a re-housed Sigma (http://www.topicpoint.com/sigma_18-50mm/). I'm fairly familiar with that lens — when Ones first began shipping, it was the only lens available from RED, so every R1 owner I know has one — relatively small and compact, it's especially good for hand-held and Steadicam work.

The zoom range is obviously a bit limited, but workable (I worked on several projects shot entirely on this lens). You could supplement it with RED's 50-150mm and the Duclos-modified PL-mount 11-16mm Tokina (http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=26868) if you need mega-wides, or if you prefer "one lens to rule them all," you could probably rent a Cooke 18-100mm (http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=33813) or 25-250mm (http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=33806) at similar rates to the RED 18-50 (but these lenses are much bigger and heavier, less suitable for a lightweight, hand-held rig).

[Duke]

Thanks Erik.

It's the cheapest lens Red sells, so the cheapest Red package I can rent is limited to that lens. It should be great for indoors, but I'm a tad concerned about the width.

I'm used to the A1 having a minimum zoom of 32.5mm equivelent, going to 650mm equivelent. With that I have to go to about 375mm equivelent to start getting DOF control.

I know the sensor is about 5 times bigger in the Red, so I roughly calculated that it would be 75mm to be the same. Hence the concern that 40-50mm would give me DOF control.

[Erik Bien]

If you know the minimum and maximum apertures of a lens (in this case, f/2.8-f/22) and the Circle of Confusion for the camera (for RED, 0.025), you can use a Depth of Field chart (http://www.johnhendry.com/gadget/dof.php) to determine exactly how deep or shallow your focus will be.

[1]

Here's an online DOF calculator:
http://www.dofmaster.com/dofjs.html

And if you have a Mac you can download Norbert's widget:
http://www.i360.tv/DOFC_widget_en

[Duke]

Thanks guys. Those are very helpful. I did find these:

http://arenafilm.hu/alsog/dofcharts/

Which weren't explained very well, but after I looked at yours I realized what they were. :hv20-smilie77:

It does seem you can get decent DOF control out of that 18-50mm lens. These should be great for planning shots.

[LOGOS PATHOS ETHOS]

The MOST impressive thing about that picture is how much weight he lost.
Good on him!!!

yeah ,I wonder if the red also comes with dietary supplements XD

[zephyrnoid]

If you know the minimum and maximum apertures of a lens (in this case, f/2.8-f/22) and the Circle of Confusion for the camera (for RED, 0.025), you can use a Depth of Field chart (http://www.johnhendry.com/gadget/dof.php) to determine exactly how deep or shallow your focus will be.

Nice! Thanks!

[koolpenguin89]

Damn, the price jumped straight out of my range. Oh well.
http://reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=38274

Dylan

[Halsu]

Damn, the price jumped straight out of my range. Oh well.
http://reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=38274

Dylan

I'm still in - looks darn kewl, and a bargain even with the increased price ($ 4750 in shooting condition for those who don't wanna bother to follow the link).

...estimated delivery in late spring. In red terms ;-)

[Ian-T]

...hmm...I wonder if fixed Scarlet will work smoothly with a DOF adapter?

[saintlobak]

Damn, the price jumped straight out of my range. Oh well.
http://reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=38274

Dylan

Haha, in the end, no Scarlets for soccer moms.

[saintlobak]

...hmm...I wonder if fixed Scarlet will work smoothly with a DOF adapter?

That sounds like hell lot of hassle, I can imagine someone choping off the fixed lens instead to mount some other lenses to it.

[Erik Bien]

But why bother, when there will ultimately be interchangeable-lens 2/3", S35 and FF35 Scarlet models, with niceties like electronic lens controls?

[Sean Michael]

Whatever happened to "a pocket cam for professionals"?

Oh wait, that's an HV20 with nanoFLASH... :hv20-smilie77:

[saintlobak]

Whatever happened to "a pocket cam for professionals"?

Oh wait, that's an HV20 with nanoFLASH... :hv20-smilie77:

And still cheaper than the Scarlet! Brilliant!

[Duke]

SCHEDULE:
Scarlet 2/3" (both models)- May-June 2010
Scarlet S35- Summer 2010

Tattoo- early 2010
EPIC S35 Stage 2- NAB 2010 (or shortly after)
EPIC S35 Stage 3 & 4- pre-summer 2010

COSTS:
Scarlet S35 $7,000 brain only
Fixed: $4,750

2/3" interchangable $2,750.
to oufit the interchangable like the fixed (ie. minimum)
.2.8" LCD................ $800
side CF module ........$500
Redmote ................$500
No Redvolt so you go to the
Battery Module ....$1,000 to $1,700
plus lens.

If you go with an old TV 2/3" lens for about $100, your total cost for the 2/3" interchangable will be $5,640 to maybe $6,340. For a really good lens add another $2k.

[Erik Bien]

I love this photo comparing the size of the 2/3" Fixed-zoom Scarlet and the Nikon D3:


http://red.cachefly.net/N30/8D3.jpg

[Ian-T]

And still cheaper than the Scarlet! Brilliant!
Yeah but with a sensor almost the size of 16mm (I believe) and at a much higher resolution.

[Duke]

Scarlet:
2/3" is 11mm diagonal, or 8.8 x 6.6 mm.

HV20 :
1/2.7 is 6.72 diagonal, or 5.37 x 4.04mm.

http://www.dpreview.com/Learn/Articles/Glossary/Camera_System/images/ccdsizes.gif

[1]

Scarlet 2/3" (both models)- May-June 2010

..whatever...make that October/November (EARLIEST!!!) for a working unit...


If you go with an old TV 2/3" lens for about $100...

Have a bunch of those laying around. What mount are they supposed to be? Sony? Ikegami? And what rez do those suckers resolve? 400x300 max? :)

[Erik Bien]

The mini-primes look totally schweet, and a good value at $950 each — but as much as they ignite my lens lust, I think the "wireless fly-by-wire" features of the fixed zoom will ultimately suit more of my needs than manual primes.


http://red.cachefly.net/N30/removable.jpg

[Halsu]

Whatever happened to "a pocket cam for professionals"?

Actually, the fixed lens Scarlet is still pretty much the same size as the original idea they had two years ago. A bit more expensive, but not THAT much. And there's quite a lot of new features to compensate for the price difference.

I'm happy ;-)

[Halsu]

Scarlet:
2/3" is 11mm diagonal, or 8.8 x 6.6 mm.

HV20 :
1/2.7 is 6.72 diagonal, or 5.37 x 4.04mm.

http://www.dpreview.com/Learn/Articles/Glossary/Camera_System/images/ccdsizes.gif


...of course, those examples are 4:3. The 16:9 video sensor sizes in HV20 and Scarlet 2/3" are a bit different.

[Bill Strehl]

The mini-primes look totally schweet, and a good value at $950 each — but as much as they ignite my lens lust, I think the "wireless fly-by-wire" features of the fixed zoom will ultimately suit more of my needs than manual primes.

You can always get a poster of the lenses and and put it over your bed. :hv20-smilie03:

[Duke]

...of course, those examples are 4:3. The 16:9 video sensor sizes in HV20 and Scarlet 2/3" are a bit different.

No, the HV20 is right. That's why the photos on the HV20 are 4:3 when it uses the full sensor. You would be right for the Red One, which is 24.4mm x 13.7mm for 16:9.

However, what makes you sure that the Scarlet sensor is 16:9?

I couldn't find a definite sensor size for it, but went with the 4:3 because, like the HV20, the Scarlet is the DSMC intended to take photos as well as videos.

Have you found definite dimensions on the 2/3" Scarlet? They said the 2/3" sensor size approximates 16mm film. It would depend on whether that was S16 or regular 16mm. Even at 16:9 the Scarlet sensor would be less than 10mm wide. Around 9.6mm I think.

[Duke]

Scarlet 2/3" (both models)- May-June 2010


..whatever...make that October/November (EARLIEST!!!) for a working unit...

If then. I think they backed themselves into a corner with the announcment in October. They had to give a date now, but they don't even have the first ASICs off the line. Thats why we are seeing no test footage.

Most likely the Epic testing will turn up a couple bugs since they have a new brain, and this will take some new code and other tweaks. They are complicated gadgets and it will take some time.


If you go with an old TV 2/3" lens for about $100...


Have a bunch of those laying around. What mount are they supposed to be? Sony? Ikegami? And what rez do those suckers resolve? 400x300 max? :)

C-Mount is one option. Some top quality TV lenses actually test much higher than their minimum ratings.

[Seo]

I love this photo comparing the size of the 2/3" Fixed-zoom Scarlet and the Nikon D3...

Same. Shouldn't be much bigger than an XH A1, from the looks of that (unless my size judging is off). Exciting stuff!

[Ian-T]

I think it's between an A1 and an HV20. It's smaller than I thought....which is a good thing.

[Halsu]

No, the HV20 is right.

I meant HD video use, that's why i said "video sensor". Bad wording i guess.

Sensor size of 2/3″ Scarlet is said to be 10.1mm x 5.35mm, which is a bit wider than 16:9, but again i was thinking of standard HD output there... gotta write with more precision i guess ;-)

To recap, when shooting 16:9 HD video, assuming your sensor size is correct, HV20 uses a 5.37 x 3.03mm area of the sensor, and assuming my sizes are correct, Scarlet uses 9.51 x 5.35 area of the sensor.

In other words, Scarlet's sensor is almost twice as wide, it's height is about the same as HV20 sensor width, and the sensor areas are about 16,3mm² and 50,9mm² respectively, making Scarlet's sensor almost four times as big as HV20's.

[Sean Michael]

The Scarlet, at least in its latest incarnation, appears to have the ergonomics of a brick.

I'm curious, how does its proposed sensor size compare to a 5DmkII?

I'm not joking about the HV20/nanoFLASH combination. For much less cost than a Scarlet you can record 4:2:2 100 Mbps XDCAM and you can do it now. Convergent Designs uses an HV30 as one of their test cameras, and they say it produces stunning results.

[Halsu]

The Scarlet, at least in its latest incarnation, appears to have the ergonomics of a brick.

It depends on how you configure it - there's all sorts of handles and shoulder mounts you can buy.


I'm curious, how does its proposed sensor size compare to a 5DmkII?

Much, much smaller, as long as we talk about 2/3" Scarlet - there's a FF35 Scarlet too, which will be available later, it will have the same size sensor as MKII.


I'm not joking about the HV20/nanoFLASH combination. For much less cost than a Scarlet you can record 4:2:2 100 Mbps XDCAM and you can do it now. Convergent Designs uses an HV30 as one of their test cameras, and they say it produces stunning results.

Sure, it can work pretty well, and look plenty good enough. Actually, regular HDV is plenty good enough for most work.

But the image quality won't be anywhere near what Scarlet specs indicate, and the handling isn't even in the same planet... you'll end up spending about $4000 to a camera that's vastly inferior to a $5000 camera.

If you want to find a current camera that compares to Scarlet, you'll need to look at i.e. Sony F23 and similar.


http://pro.sony.com/bbsc/ssr/cat-broadcastcameras/cat-cinealta/product-F23/

...of course, Scarlet will have i.e. overcranking to 120fps, or four times faster than F23, so it flat out beats it in that respect and many others...

[Ian-T]

...u forget to mention also the huge difference in price...

[Marshallator]

$5,000 vs. $150,000? Tis a small point my dear man, a very small point.

[Ian-T]

lol

[-Rogue5-]

I'm just wondering if a "DIG!C V" Canon camera is gonna be out/announced by mid-2010. Assuming they have an APS-C/APS-H cam with fullsensor scale down for ~$2000, it'd make the Scarlet vs. HDSLR decision quite difficult.

EDIT: OH YEAH, as for the price to $5000, it's NOT that big of a deal. The Sony F23 and SI2k (both of which are 2/3" cameras and used for a ton of movies, including StarWars 1, Benjamin Button, and Slumdog) cost 10s of thousands of dollars without lenses or other required shooting equipement. I'm willing to bet that the Fixed Lense Scarlet will perform as good as either of those cameras just based on the paper specifications alone (e.g. even if it was "just" a 2/3" RED1 it'd be on par, but it's a newer sensor with better DR and lowlight for a mere $5000.)

-Rogue5-

[Goose]

er, hate to be pedantic but it was Star Wars 2...
hee hee

[1]

...there's all sorts of handles and shoulder mounts you can buy.

Yeah, Zacuto sells a bent piece of alu-bar for only $3450.00.
:hv20-smilie81:

[Duke]

even if it was "just" a 2/3" RED1 it'd be on par, but it's a newer sensor with better DR and lowlight for a mere $5000.)

Um, with the increased CA sales tax it will be $5,165.63 + shipping, and make sure your computer and NLE are both up to it (or use proxies.) But, yes, it should be good.

And while the Red CMOS system seems better than many CMOS systems, its not a global shutter and its still a CMOS. The F23 is a 3CCD camera (less prone to skew), has more built in filters, and uses full XLR inputs to name a few. (Overcranking to 120fps is only an advantage if you are going to do slow-mo. That's more a gimmick. Most movies don't have or need slow-mo.)

If you want to argue that the Scarlet 2/3" fixed is more bang for the buck, that's highly probably if it pans out as expected. That doesn't mean it's necessarily a 'better' camera or even a 'better' image. It should give low budget indies a better chance though. It should be very good IF you happen to be a great cinematographer already. IF you shoot lousy video it will still be lousy video.

[Bill Strehl]

http://www.xtranormal.com/watch/5760227/

Enjoy!

[Duke]

http://www.xtranormal.com/watch/5760227/

Enjoy!

hahahahaha So true!

[Duke]

Did I just miss it, or did we not get final specs on the lens for the scarlet fixed. I didn't find the lens length(s) in actual or equivalents or the final lens speed in T or F numbers.

I note the announcement says aluminum OR magnesium bodies. They haven't made up their minds??

#21 is "Something interesting goes here."

I also just noticed the battery module has been repriced over night. It did say $1,000 - $1,700 and now says $1,250.

[Erik Bien]

Scarlet (fixed zoom) is now said to be T2.6 (F2.4) (http://www.reduser.net/forum/showpost.php?p=518342&postcount=788) constant (non-ramping). The camera also has an internal ND filter wheel (http://www.reduser.net/forum/showpost.php?p=518086&postcount=667) with clear (no ND), 0.9 and 1.8 filters. Still no official word on specific focal lengths, however.

Still thermal testing (http://www.reduser.net/forum/showpost.php?p=518213&postcount=719) to determine whether body shells will be made of aluminum or magnesium.

Also, full-size XLRs will be available on the optional IO modules.

(And just for the record, I disagree with your assessment of the importance of overcranking: these days, there's hardly a feature film or a food commercial which doesn't include at least a few slow-mo shots.)

[Duke]

The camera also has an internal ND filter wheel (http://www.reduser.net/forum/showpost.php?p=518086&postcount=667) with clear (no ND), 0.9 and 1.8 filters.

I didn't say it had none, just not as many. And the exact T and F numbers have changed over time. It wasn't in the offical announcement. That was posted later by Jarred.


Still no official word on specific focal lengths, however.

Yeah, even the old chart is gone.


Still thermal testing (http://www.reduser.net/forum/showpost.php?p=518213&postcount=719) to determine whether body shells will be made of aluminum or magnesium.

That was sort of my point. They are announcing a release date and haven't finished or tested the ASICs, nor the software to run them because they don't have the ASICs yet. And haven't finished the shell.

I'm not saying these things can't be done, or won't be done, but it takes time. Whenever a contracter gives me a time frame I double it and that's usually right. Glitches appear in the best of plans. In the military they say your plan survives up until first contact.


Also, full-size XLRs will be available on the optional IO modules.

But like any XLR adapter its dependant on the connections. Hey, we've all plugged into the HV20 or an XLR adapter and it usually works just fine, but if something is going to fail its the connections that are often the culprit. Its not horrible, but I think everyone would agree that direct XLR would be better. But, there are space considerations. (Price-wise it shouldn't be much different except another thing go buy.)


(And just for the record, I disagree with your assessment of the importance of overcranking: these days, there's hardly a feature film or a food commercial which doesn't include at least a few slow-mo shots.)

You've been watching too many sci-fi and action movies lately. LOL just kidding. I'll admit its in some, but depends on the genre, etc.

[Halsu]

...u forget to mention also the huge difference in price...

Well, that's one of the reasons why my tagline says "...Geeking out over Scarlet" ;-)

[Halsu]

But like any XLR adapter its dependant on the connections. Hey, we've all plugged into the HV20 or an XLR adapter and it usually works just fine, but if something is going to fail its the connections that are often the culprit. Its not horrible, but I think everyone would agree that direct XLR would be better.

Of course, those connections are not the minijacks, but rather the same multipin connection that's used for every other module. As the whole system is based on that connection, i'd assume they have tested it to be pretty darn reliable.

[Erik Bien]

I didn't say it had none, just not as many.

I actually found the values rather telling: 0.9 is already a full three stops, 1.8 is six stops — that tells me the sensor is some kinda sensitive!

Base ISO >500? Awesome! :hv20-smilie77:

Also, shooting RAW means you can "process" the footage at different ISOs, which is probably why they felt they could get away with fewer in-between increments of ND.


And the exact T and F numbers have changed over time. It wasn't in the offical announcement. That was posted later by Jarred.

Erm, the "official announcement" was also posted by Jarred (http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=38274). What's your point? :hv20-smilie79:

EDIT: Update — someone's started a thread collecting the additional tidbits of 'official' info (http://reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=38361) which have popped up in the discussion threads.



But like any XLR adapter its dependant on the connections. Hey, we've all plugged into the HV20 or an XLR adapter and it usually works just fine, but if something is going to fail its the connections that are often the culprit. Its not horrible, but I think everyone would agree that direct XLR would be better. But, there are space considerations.

But that's just it: the module mounting interface (http://www.reduser.net/forum/showpost.php?p=486181&postcount=406) looks pretty bullet-proof to me, and from there it's the same locking XLRs audio guys have always used.



I'll admit its in some, but depends on the genre, etc.

I think, if you start keeping an eye out for them, you'll notice subtle and not-so-subtle under- and over-crank effects in many more films than you think: chop-socky flicks will shoot hand-to-hand combat at 21 or 22 fps to make the fists fly faster, a key emotional beat in an indie drama will be accentuated by a closeup where the flick of an eye or the roll of a tear happens just a bit slower than real time, etc.

[Duke]

Erm, the "official announcement" was also posted by Jarred (http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=38274). What's your point? :hv20-smilie79:

Posted the next day in the link you provided. Nothing nefarious, as I said it wasn't in the announcement it was a day later.

Actually, I've looked around and they've been doing some editing on their board. Some things have changed and some links deleted. Wonder what that's all about.

[Erik Bien]

Actually, I've looked around and they've been doing some editing on their board. Some things have changed and some links deleted. Wonder what that's all about.

The REDuser database crashed (http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=31059) back in June, breaking most links and embedded graphics posted before that date. Other than firming up the price on the battery module, I haven't noticed any recent edits or retractions. Why, what did you see? :hv20-smilie50:

[Duke]

Other than firming up the price on the battery module, I haven't noticed any recent edits or retractions. Why, what did you see? :hv20-smilie50:

There were several links, but I don't know if they were before June or not. Because they're gone I can't even look for them.

Beyond that the following price changes:
Redmote from $500 to $550
2.8" LCD from $800 to $900
The battery as you said firmed up at $1,250
7" LCD didn't have a price, it does now.

And I could be wrong because I didn't write this one down, but the new Red Mattebox I don't think was $1,200 before because I was comparing it to the Redrock Mattebox. My impression was they were closer in price before.

Maybe the line should be "subject to change... overnight" :hv20-smilie84:

[1]

Well, that's one of the reasons why my tagline says "...Geeking out over Scarlet" ;-)


I've been wanting to change that to "Proud Scarlet owner" for years (it seems)...and honestly, I can't see it happening in 2010 either...

[Zacatac]

I've been wanting to change that to "Proud Scarlet owner" for years (it seems)...and honestly, I can't see it happening in 2010 either...

Come September, if Halsu's and mine title isn't changed to "Proud Scarlet Owner" you can have my head, cause honestly, I'd be done with it too

[Ian-T]

Come September, if Halsu's and mine title isn't changed to "Proud Scarlet Owner" you can have my head, cause honestly, I'd be done with it tooWould you prefer it in a duffel bag or on a platter? :) jk I guess it wouldn't matter after the fact anyways.



Yeah, Zacuto sells a bent piece of alu-bar for only $3450.00.
:hv20-smilie81:Yup…that about sums it up. The even crazier thing is folks actually buy it. I just don’t get it.

[koolpenguin89]

Heres an ebay seller with some pretty awesome zacuto ripoffs (idk if this has been posted here before or not). http://shop.ebay.com/gini.1980/m.html?_nkw=&_armrs=1&_from=&_ipg=&_trksid=p3686

Dylan

[Ian-T]

Heres an ebay seller with some pretty awesome zacuto ripoffs (idk if this has been posted here before or not). http://shop.ebay.com/gini.1980/m.html?_nkw=&_armrs=1&_from=&_ipg=&_trksid=p3686

Dylan
You know…..funny thing is, even at a fraction of the cost a Zacuto, I still find these items to be overpriced.

[1]

Come September, if Halsu's and mine title isn't changed to "Proud Scarlet Owner" you can have my head, cause honestly, I'd be done with it too

Well, that sounds reasonable, but will probably be VERY inaccurate.

The marketing genius that is Mr Jennard is not in the ability to sell GREAT products, but in the ability to place his products up there on the Maslow Hierarchy of Needs (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maslow%27s_hierarchy_of_needs) at the tip (Self Actualization).
(How else would you explain someone spending $250 on a pair of Sunglasses that cost $10 to make?)

By the time September 2010 comes along, there will be improvements announced by RED, some hot-chick photos on REDuser.com, and some other candy that will have the masses salivating, and eager to wait another 6 months...

:eek::eek::eek:

Added:
At this point, with all its flaws and shortcomings, I much prefer the Canon, Pana, Sony (et al) approach:
"Here's the friggin cam; buy it or not, we don't give a crap. Improvements/Firmware updates? Nah, not a chance - wait until the next model comes out in 12 months."

[Duke]

(How else would you explain someone spending $250 on a pair of Sunglasses that cost $10 to make?)

Jim J gives them a coolness factor. His sunglasses were different, apocalyptic, high tech and rusty at the same time. Same thing with the oakly stores, textured display cases and those fanged robotic mouths as entrances. They have a certain style.

He's advertising style for the cameras with the black on black, etc. Its just that high tech products don't have the same development cycle. Only the most rabid fans can salivate for more than a year.

[1]

Jim J gives them a coolness factor.

I see we agree then. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maslow%27s_hierarchy_of_needs)

"Marketers have historically looked towards consumers' needs to define their actions in the market. If producers design products meeting consumer needs, consumers will more often choose those products over those of competitors. Whichever product better fulfills this void will be chosen more frequently, thus increasing sales."

The higher up on the Maslow pyramid, the better we FEEL about it...

[Ian-T]

Only the most rabid fans can salivate for more than a year.
I'm sure. Just put up poster sized Scarlet render and I guarantee you the Pavlov effect goes into overdrive among all of them. But at this point it's really equivalent to those Greyhounds chasing that ever elusive fake rabbit. :hv20-smilie84:

[lordtangent]

(Overcranking to 120fps is only an advantage if you are going to do slow-mo. That's more a gimmick. Most movies don't have or need slow-mo.)
.

I just had a conversation with a friend regarding the 2/3" Scarlet and based on his comments I would totally disagree. He is intensely interested in the 2/3" camera for all it's features, including the SMALLER sensor and over cranking ability. He wants to use it to shoot miniatures and effects elements where the deeper focus and over cranking are both critical for best results.

Deep focus is a feature for him. Over cranking is mandatory. The 2/3" Scarlet is like his dream come true. (Well, if it could shoot even FASTER than a high speed film camera it would be his true dream come true. But he deems 120fps adequate for most purposes.)

Plus slow mo is nice even for regular film making. I'd rather have the option and only use it infrequently than not have it at all. It would be tons of fun for shooting stuff like sports.

[Duke]

He wants to use it to shoot miniatures and effects elements where the deeper focus and over cranking are both critical for best results.

Sure there are specialized uses. And deep focus, come on. Turn on the lights and close the aperture.


Over cranking is mandatory. The 2/3" Scarlet is like his dream come true.

I can't even think of how overcranking is mandatory for miniatures. Effects yeah, but then were in that genre area of Sci-Fi and action again.


Plus slow mo is nice even for regular film making. I'd rather have the option and only use it infrequently than not have it at all. It would be tons of fun for shooting stuff like sports.

As I said in a later post, it does have its uses, but its not mandatory for most movies.

[lordtangent]

Sure there are specialized uses. And deep focus, come on. Turn on the lights and close the aperture.

Two reasons.

1. Detraction Limited Aperture.
2. At some point, you get to the point there is so much light you'll literally melt the models



I can't even think of how overcranking is mandatory for miniatures. Effects yeah, but then were in that genre area of Sci-Fi and action again.


If the event is recorded real-time and you want it to look the right scale, it's absolutely mandatory. Look it up if you don't understand why.

I may be a CG artist by trade but I still recognize when practical elements are, well, more practical. Shooting little bits of live action is a HUGE time saver.



As I said in a later post, it does have its uses, but its not mandatory for most movies.

Not strictly speaking. But it's also no gimmick. I can say for myself I would be much less interested in the Scarlet if it didn't have high speed. It's one of the features that makes it stand out as more than just another video camera. I mean, film cameras over crank just fine. It's not considered a gimmick on a film camera.

[zephyrnoid]

If you want to argue that the Scarlet 2/3" fixed is more bang for the buck, that's highly probably if it pans out as expected. That doesn't mean it's necessarily a 'better' camera or even a 'better' image. It should give low budget indies a better chance though. It should be very good IF you happen to be a great cinematographer already. IF you shoot lousy video it will still be lousy video.

NOTICE: Newbies & Pros. Duke's post really captures the gist of what these cameras are about.

[fishops]

NOTICE: Newbies & Pros. Duke's post really captures the gist of what these cameras are about.

Vaporware?

[Duke]

Vaporware?

Hahaha. How about a way to get everyone excited so they can be separated from their money easier. For things we don't need they create a want. Which would be for all camera companies.

[Duke]

Two reasons.
1. Detraction Limited Aperture.
2. At some point, you get to the point there is so much light you'll literally melt the models


My personal experience with miniatures is limited (I have been using combinations of live action, miniatures and CGI on this sci-fi movie), but miniatures are closer to the camera to look bigger, so:

a)due to the rate of light fall off you don't put as much light on the miniature as you do the full size stuff when you want them to look like the same lighting as the rest of the scene.

b) CFLs and HMI are so much cooler than incandescent. Put a 2K fresnel on a miniature and you'd probably have a fire. :(

You don't have to reach those points.

(I'm assuming, since you didn't say, that the overcranking for miniatures is so that miniature can be moved small distances smoothly through the scene and it will look like bigger distances at normal rates.)

[Frank]

Duke said: "(I'm assuming, since you didn't say, that the overcranking for miniatures is so that miniature can be moved small distances smoothly through the scene and it will look like bigger distances at normal rates.)"

It's about gravity:
1. All objects fall at the same rate (discounting air resistance).
2. Therefore, the miniature you film falling to the ground will cover the distance much quicker than the larger object it represents would be expected to. IOW, the larger object is falling further but at the same rate, so it takes longer to hit the ground.
3. The best way to simulate this is to shoot the small object in slow mo so it will take as long to drop as the larger object would.

One example of this in films is miniature vessels in bodies of water, where the waves are slowed down to appear much larger.

[um3k]

Water isn't a good example, since it doesn't scale, no matter how slow or fast you play the footage. Hence, most miniatures work involving water looks pretty hokey.

[Frank]

Water isn't a good example, since it doesn't scale, no matter how slow or fast you play the footage. Hence, most miniatures work involving water looks pretty hokey.

It's true that it doesn't scale correctly (droplets are too big) but it is a common and obvious use of the technique (at least in the days before cgi); hence why I offered it.

[Frank]

Maybe Godzilla is a better example (while still hokey).

[Boz]

NOTICE: Newbies & Pros. Duke's post really captures the gist of what these cameras are about.

Yup.

A great brush does not make a great artist.

Hmm... I kinda like that, I think I'll add it to my signature. lol

[1]

A great brush does not make a great artist.

How true...

...and a perfect impetus to ask you to exchange your cam with this one:

http://content.webcollage.net/tru/resources/connections/aplus/Imation-iCarlyDigitalCamcorder-NCC654-IC/image1.jpg http://content.webcollage.net/tru/resources/connections/aplus/Imation-iCarlyDigitalCamcorder-NCC654-IC/image3.jpg

The cam matters not, after all...right?

:hv20-smilie81::hv20-smilie81::hv20-smilie81:

[CorbenT]

...and a perfect impetus to ask you to exchange your cam with this one:

:hv20-smilie03: You could always ask Zacuto to custom build a rig for it*

* By "build a rig for it" I actually mean attach an aluminium tube to another aluminium tube via a basic clamp and sell it to you for $2975 + postage

[kenkyusha]

* By "build a rig for it" I actually mean attach an aluminium tube to another aluminium tube via a basic clamp and sell it to you for $2975 + postage
Yeah, but then there will be a totally awesometastic video (including some verite-style handheld work, just to prove how 'docu' it is) outlining uses and why the two bits of aluminum and a clamp are worth $3k... good times...

Be well,
Jigme

[Boz]

How true...

...and a perfect impetus to ask you to exchange your cam with this one:

http://content.webcollage.net/tru/resources/connections/aplus/Imation-iCarlyDigitalCamcorder-NCC654-IC/image1.jpg http://content.webcollage.net/tru/resources/connections/aplus/Imation-iCarlyDigitalCamcorder-NCC654-IC/image3.jpg

The cam matters not, after all...right?

:hv20-smilie81::hv20-smilie81::hv20-smilie81:

Give someone with no talent the finest brush ever made and a pallet full of paint... then give a true artist with real talent a single piece of chalk.... who do you think will make a better piece of art? I bet the artist smokes the no talent hack.

There have been great videos make with camera phones and horrible stuff made with Red cameras. The camera is a tool. Sure a good tool makes things easier, but it does not replace talent. Not even close.

[1]

...attach an aluminium tube to another aluminium tube via a basic clamp and sell it to you for $2975 + postage

LOL :hv20-smilie77::hv20-smilie77:

@ Boz: an elaboration was REALLY unnecessary - your point was perfectly clear beforehand.

[antman]

Don't forget to mention the 950.00 shiney red paint job.

But it has a lifetime warranty and phillip bloom uses it. At least it will take the attention away from my horrible shooting skills.

[Boz]

LOL :hv20-smilie77::hv20-smilie77:

@ Boz: an elaboration was REALLY unnecessary - your point was perfectly clear beforehand.

Yet you mock it. Whatever.

[Koppel]

Any news lately?

[1]

Any news lately?

Scarlet has finally been launched...after much anticipation!

http://www.hardwarezone.com/ourvoice/blog/in_the_zone/events/2008/07/29/Events-LG-Scarlet-Sexiest-TV-Launch

[Seo]

LMAO, I was like... OMFG ALREADY? But no, it's but a TV. A really nice one, but still not a RED Scarlet...

[Kostas]

Yes. Red Scarlet is finally here:
http://www.eoshd.com/entry.php?45-RED-Scarlet-Finally-Here!-*



:hv20-smilie84:

[Erik Bien]

I expect we'll know a lot more after April 14th (http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=40640).

[Ian-T]

Check out this new Arri digital cinema camera....for around the price of a decked out Red One. Hmmmm 13 Stops of latitude.

YouTube- Arri ALEXA camera - thefilmbook

Edit:

Movie:

YouTube- Arri-Alexa web.mov

[booggerg]

We already have alot of competition in the HDSLR market, panasonic, nikon, and canon.. won't shed a tear if red fades into the history books along with whatever competitive energy they bring to the industry, which at this point is nil in the prosumer price range.

[Erik Bien]

won't shed a tear if red fades into the history books

Three words: not bloody likely (http://www.awn.com/blogs/tracking-marc/worlds-first-side-side-arri-alexa-and-red-mysteriumx-camera-test).

[booggerg]

Three words: not bloody likely (http://www.awn.com/blogs/tracking-marc/worlds-first-side-side-arri-alexa-and-red-mysteriumx-camera-test).

Well I should have qualified my statement more accurately.. You're right, Red very well could continue to be a major player in the high-end digital cinema market. However, that's not what most of us indie producers feel passionate about or really care for. For example, I won't care to bring up the ARRI ALEXA and RED MysteriumX comparison when I talk with my buddies, but we will talk with a high level of interest about improvements in the 1DMk4 image quality vs other cameras..

In our eyes, and in the world we live in that is not high-end digital cinema, we already have a healthy competition brewing amongst established manufactures putting out quality products that give us what we're looking for at the price we want. Given that we're still in the early generations of HDSLRs, I'm more than confident that future offerings will match the technical specs we're looking for. Won't shed a tear if the future of this market segment won't include Red.

[Erik Bien]

And I think, once a few of the pros who have been cautiously using DSLRs for motion picture and TV production drop them like hot rocks (http://www.reduser.net/forum/showpost.php?p=554734&postcount=2800) in favor of Scarlet, RED's new mini-wonder-cam will replace the 'bestest DSLR for video' as the new favorite water-cooler topic of the average aspiring video nerd, as indeed the DSLR replaced the DoF adapter, and the 24p camera before that, the "if only I had ____, I could make my super-excellent movie" excuse du jour. Until the next cool thing comes along. Guess we'll eventually find out which one of us was right! :hv20-smilie03:

[jordanService]

@ Boogergg what your saying is like you wouldn't want to win the Superbowl because you already have won a game of backyard football. I love my hv20 and am considering buying a t2i, but these cameras are really excellent. It is a different league but not something you should write your self out of, why not be pro. Remember, I might think I'm 'indie' making movies for 200$ with an hv20, but there are "indie" movies with budgets well into the millions. We aren't indie, we are enthusiasts, doesn't mean we shouldn't prepare and be excited for the next level?

I think it is great, honestly I don't know what would be better: $150k for a masters from FSU or NYU or just getting a ARRI or RED... At least with camera you could sell it if it doesn't work out.

[Koppel]

Price wise ARRI is to RED users what RED is to DSLR users.

ARRI Alexa prices begin at 50 000 Euro = 68500 USD
RED ONE (body only) 17 500 USD
Canon 7D body 1 700 USD

[antman]

"if only I had ____, I could make my super-excellent movie" excuse du jour. Until the next cool thing comes along. Guess we'll eventually find out which one of us was
Couldn't agree more erik, We see people on here all the time making excuses as too why they can't shoot with what they have. It all comes down to one thing in the end. NO STORY!!!. So the the greatest cam doesn't write scripts. If

[Duke]

I, for one, will be looking to see when the Scarlet gets into the general public's hands.

Before that at NAB we'll probably see what Canon's new tapeless A1 offering has in the way of specs, and the new Sony EX3 (its supposed to be an entirely new model between the EX3 and 350 not an R revision).

I love the images from my EX1, but I do miss the CCD sensors on my A1.

[booggerg]

@ Boogergg what your saying is like you wouldn't want to win the Superbowl because you already have won a game of backyard football. I love my hv20 and am considering buying a t2i, but these cameras are really excellent. It is a different league but not something you should write your self out of, why not be pro. Remember, I might think I'm 'indie' making movies for 200$ with an hv20, but there are "indie" movies with budgets well into the millions. We aren't indie, we are enthusiasts, doesn't mean we shouldn't prepare and be excited for the next level?

I think it is great, honestly I don't know what would be better: $150k for a masters from FSU or NYU or just getting a ARRI or RED... At least with camera you could sell it if it doesn't work out.

Right we are enthusiasts. However getting obsessed over pro level equipment doesn't make one a pro. Just like how Ferraris and Lambos are nice cars I know but I don't really to find out every detail about them and optional equipment you can get on them because it's not anything I would ever buy.

[Erik Bien]

Check out this new Arri digital cinema camera....for around the price of a decked out Red One. Hmmmm 13 Stops of latitude.

Then again, guess who recently measured 13.5 stops (http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=42396) from their new sensor, using ARRI's own test? :hv20-smilie29:

[Ian-T]

Then again, guess who recently measured 13.5 stops (http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=42396) from their new sensor, using ARRI's own test? :hv20-smilie29:
Impressive. Then again is that all useful stops? And isn't typical 35mm film @ around 14 stops? I'd say this would be the beginning of the end for typical use of 35mm film...you think? The "Digital Cinema" revolution maybe?

[redfalcon]

We'll all be out of money by the time it's available. :hv20-smilie51:

[Joseph Hutson]

And isn't typical 35mm film @ around 14 stops?

Funny you didn't start talking about comparison with film til the RED's latitude was brought into question after the Alexa...

[Joseph Hutson]

We'll all be out of money by the time it's available. :hv20-smilie51:

Depends...for some like me, by the time it's available we'll have enough money to buy two.

[redfalcon]

Depends...for some like me, by the time it's available we'll have enough money to buy two.

Well, what's the point when you're sitting in an old folks home? :hv20-smilie87:

[Koppel]

Videoreport mit Ted Schilowitz von Red: YouTube- Videoreport mit Ted Schilowitz von Red

[Joseph Hutson]

Well, what's the point when you're sitting in an old folks home? :hv20-smilie87:

Well, I guess I wasn't planning to be in the old folk's home in the next year such as yourself... :hv20-smilie87:

[1]

Videoreport ...


Can't get YouTube here, what's the crux of it all?