This is a HUGE problem...(drop outs)

[Lance Campeau]

So I have had my HV20 for a little over a month and I have noticed a major problem with this camera.

Dropped frames

Not just a few frames but HUGE sections of video are NOT recording to tape (sometimes over 30 seconds)... Of course, I don't find this out untill I am back in the studio capturing my footage to the hard drive. Just today, I found a 45 second gap in my tape... no audio, no video... just blue screen... in a critical part of my days work. today's shoot was a TOTAL WRITEOFF.

WHAT THE HELL IS THIS!?!

Imagine if I was doing a wedding video or some other once-in-a-lifetime event. This is insane.

Before you all start asking...

-I only use brand new tape when shooting (Maxell regular DV, not HD tape)
-I clean my heads regularly (every few days, a quick 10 seconds)
-It's NOT my computer setup, hard drive, capture card etc...

This is not the first time, this has happen 3 times now... If this happens once more, I'm returning this camera.


IMPORTANT UPDATE TO THIS POST.....

As stated above, I have been having problems with my HV20... at first I suspected it was caused by poor quality tape/reusing tape. After speaking with the Canon customer service rep, I realize that exposure to extreme cold may have been the problem instead. He cited an example from another Canon user that had a similar problem using a pro model. What was he shooting? An ice fishing documentary... long periods in the cold with little protection from the wind... This is exactly the same situation I was in when the malfunctions occured.

Each time I had a problem it was when the camera had been exposed to a constant wind in cold weather conditions (-10 C or less). In retrospect, the times where the camera failed to record to tape I was also not wearing gloves and my hands were nearly frostbitten. At all other times the HV20 recorded without problems. If I took the camera into the car for a few minutes to warm up it seemed to help. I am not certain but this may have been the problem all along...

[Duke]

It could be a bad camera, but you might also try a couple different tapes. More people report better results with Panasonic PQ or MQ, or Sony tapes. Clean between different brands.

Some people have reported drop outs from bad battery seating. See that it's getting good contact and/or try another battery or two.

Hope that helps.
Duke

[koolpenguin89]

The head cleaner is probably your problem. Your not supposed to clean it that often, definantly NOT every few days. Only use it when you see a dropout, because it is literally a bunch of bristles that rub on the recording head. I hope this isnt your problem though, because if you did clean it excessively, it might be too late :(

Dylan

[Lance Campeau]

This is BAD... I just checked another section of the tape.... 4 minutes missing... The worst part of all this is that that camera doesn't give you ANY indication at all that there might be a problem... no warning, NOTHING.
this is total garbage. what's the point of a camera that lets you waste your entire day shooting only to findout LATER that it didn't record a damm thing.

My new HV20 is going back to the store tomorrow...

[Lance Campeau]

I haven't cleaned it that much, I have only had it about 5 weeks.

[dkijc]

I'm so sorry about that... Lucky for me, those drop frames happened when I was testing the camera out. For me, tho, it was a tape problem. One to b exact. I doubt it's the tape since it seems to be frequent. I had no complaints on this camcorder, so far (Had it since May or June 2007) and would recommend this camcorder again if you are looking to get a video camera after your return. However, I do understand if you change your mind. Sorry about your losses.

[bimpatiens]

Lance Campeau (http://hv20.com/member.php?u=7069)
What do software do you use to render? Do you "black" your tapes first? Hope you can resolve this.

Chris

[Lance Campeau]

By "blacked" do you mean pre-striping the tape? No, I used to do that with my old camera, I have not done it with this one. I am to understand that HDV records differently than regular DV...? Does pre-striping make a big difference with HDV cams? I have not even heard a mention of it in any fourms that I have read...

[nolonemo]

30 sec or more not recording to tape isn't a dropped frames or tape quality issue. I have no idea what it is, but I would exchange the camera ASAP.

[lordtangent]

Yeah. Seriously dude. It sounds like you have a "Lemon"

[CycleWriter]

Each time I had a problem it was when the camera had been exposed to a constant wind in cold weather conditions (-10 C or less). In retrospect, the times where the camera failed to record to tape I was also not wearing gloves and my hands were nearly frostbitten. At all other times the HV20 recorded without problems. If I took the camera into the car for a few minutes to warm up it seemed to help. I am not certain but this may have been the problem all along...[/SIZE][/COLOR]Would have been nice if you had divulged some of that BEFORE you assumed it was the camera's fault. I'm sure several readers like me, who just purchased their camera in the past 2 weeks, were pretty alarmed to be reading your original post. I'm glad you may have resolved your issue, but it might have been helpful had you told us early on that you were shooting in arctic conditions. Sometimes the most obvious solution is the hardest to see.:hv20-smilie84:

[Lance Campeau]

Would have been nice if you had divulged some of that BEFORE you assumed it was the camera's fault. I'm sure several readers like me, who just purchased their camera in the past 2 weeks, were pretty alarmed to be reading your original post. I'm glad you may have resolved your issue, but it might have been helpful had you told us early on that you were shooting in arctic conditions. Sometimes the most obvious solution is the hardest to see.:hv20-smilie84:

I am still not certain that exposure to cold was the cause of the malfunction... I am interested in finding out if anyone else has had this problem with the HV20, in cold weather or warm. There may be other unreported factors to consider...

I lost a day's work because of this malfunction and will not use this model again untill this issue resolved. Imagine shooting a wedding and losing 4 minutes during the vows... Your client would have a valid reason to take you to court over something like that... no thanks. :hv20-smilie36:

[nolonemo]

I lost a day's work because of this malfunction and will not use this model again untill this issue resolved. Imagine shooting a wedding and losing 4 minutes during the vows...

Dude, I want to see a wedding in -10C temps -- but not in person! BTW, the HV20 manual gives the operating temperature range for the HV20 as 0-40C, so you were definitely out of the range.... I suspect that that's it, but don't know.

[lpmedia]

I had the same problem when I was recording some snowmobile racing a few months ago. It was probably between 10-15 degrees F.
I would have random missing spots on the tape that would only show up when capturing. At the most, probably 5 seconds worth of footage would be missing, but it would chop in and out for over a minute before returning to normal.

[CycleWriter]

I am still not certain that exposure to cold was the cause of the malfunction... I am interested in finding out if anyone else has had this problem with the HV20, in cold weather or warm. There may be other unreported factors to consider...

I lost a day's work because of this malfunction and will not use this model again untill this issue resolved. Imagine shooting a wedding and losing 4 minutes during the vows... Your client would have a valid reason to take you to court over something like that... no thanks. :hv20-smilie36:
I fully understand your reaction, but I think it was unfair for you to post such an alarmist thread without first having done some research. The title and content of your post insinuated an inherent problem with the camera and gave no hint that the problem was more likely that you failed to note the recommended operating range in the manual. As such, it probably created quite a stir among HV20 owners reading this forum. Having only had mine for two weeks I know I was alarmed after seeing the provocative title and reading your original post. I spent over an hour doing Google searches to see if I could find out more information on the subject (thankfully, I didn't). Places like this are great for finding out about potential flaws in a product, but I think one should be a little more responsible when casting negative aspersions on a product before having all the facts. Your post was irresponsible in that it did not provide critical information that would have led readers to surmise that it was not a valid camera fault. And your follow-up posts (before you added the edit about the cold conditions) hammered even more on the "bad camera" premise of your first. I'm not trying to jump in your you-know-what, but a little restraint in situations like this is warranted. I'm glad you came forward with more info and I hope the cold was the source of your problem (since it is beyond the recommended operating range and even farther beyond what I'll ever need to do with it), but I'll think twice if I see another alarming thread title with your name on it.:hv20-smilie87:

[Dennis Vogel]

Since the recommended operating temperature for the HV20 is 0-40 degrees C, it would seem to me that the cam simply failed to record due to the low temperature. Did you really expect it to work in conditions beyond those it was engineered for?

Good luck.

Dennis

[Lance Campeau]

Perhaps my original post was hasty... You may say "alarmist" but the bottom line is this... This is still a major technical malfunction on a 5 week old, $900 camera. If your specialty was capturing footage of outdoor winter sports would you still buy an HV20 after reading this entire post? I wouldn't... My old Sony Hi-8 cameras functioned perfectly in even colder weather. So, next time i'll buy a more robust, professional model with a proper protective cover. Lesson learned...

Other than this unpleasentness, my HV20 is still a sweet, feature packed, wet dream for indy filmakers who don't plan to shoot in the cold.

:hv20-smilie58:

[nolonemo]

This is still a major technical malfunction on a 5 week old, $900 camera.

Wrong. If it doesn't perform outside of the specs, that's not a "malfunction," it means that the camera is functioning in accordance with its design.

[CycleWriter]

Perhaps my original post was hasty... You may say "alarmist" but the bottom line is this... This is still a major technical malfunction on a 5 week old, $900 camera. If your specialty was capturing footage of outdoor winter sports would you still buy an HV20 after reading this entire post? I wouldn't... My old Sony Hi-8 cameras functioned perfectly in even colder weather. So, next time i'll buy a more robust, professional model with a proper protective cover. Lesson learned...

Other than this unpleasentness, my HV20 is still a sweet, feature packed, wet dream for indy filmakers who don't plan to shoot in the cold.

:hv20-smilie58:

I think the bottom line is that any time you work outside the recommended parameters of ANY product you are asking for trouble of your own making. If my specialty was capturing outdoor winter sports I certainly would have read up on the operating temperature range of my equipment BEFORE I put too much faith in it, and I wouldn't be denigrating it for my failure to do that.

Like I said, I'm glad it appears to have not been a camera defect. I didn't pay $900 for mine, but I still would have been disappointed had it turned out to be a real lemon.:hv20-smilie84:

[Lance Campeau]

I'll say it again... All three of my old Sony Hi-8 cameras funtioned PERFECTLY in -20C with added wind chill. This was FAR beyond the recomended operating temperture of these models. I guess I was hoping for a repeat of this great performance with the HV20... Whatever the case, it ain't happenin'

[bluegrass]

I'm sorry the camera doesn't perform outside of it's temperature range like the old Hi 8 did. I'll keep that in mind. I don't suspect that I'll be shooting in that extreme weather conditions but it's good to have that knowlege in the back of my head. Maybe you could make some sort of protective glove like device to keep the camera out of the elements a little when shooting in the exteme cold.

[CycleWriter]

I'll say it again... All three of my old Sony Hi-8 cameras funtioned PERFECTLY in -20C with added wind chill. This was FAR beyond the recomended operating temperture of these models. I guess I was hoping for a repeat of this great performance with the HV20... Whatever the case, it ain't happenin'

OK, I've tried to show restraint but you make it impossible. Why in the heck would you predict the operation of your new digital Canon camera on the basis of what your old analog Sony cameras could do? Just the difference between the two camera formats in bandwidth transfer alone would cause me to give it a little more thought than you obviously did. Your obstinacy about this leads me to believe you will suffer a repeat of this episode when you try to do something else with the camera that it wasn't designed for. Please do us all a favor and don't come here to tell us about it or bash Canon because it didn't perform outside their operational parameters the way you expected it to. I'm sure it won't be relevant to how any of us use our cameras.:hv20-smilie50:

[Lance Campeau]

To CycleWriter:

Most people here are not interested in having to filter through your personal opinions about me. Please stick to the issue at hand. Not all of us plan to use the HV20 just for backyard BBQ's or little league games. Serious people need to know what this camera can really take. Not just "what the manual says" it will so please, unless you have some actual experience with this model to speak of, give it a rest.

[CycleWriter]

To CycleWriter:

Most people here are not interested in having to filter through your personal opinions about me. Please stick to the issue at hand. Some people plan to use the HV20 for more than a backyard BBQ or little league game and they need to know what this camera can really take. Not just "what the manual says" it will.

Well, might I suggest you start a website devoted to guerilla usage of the Canon HV20? :hv20-smilie84: You crack me up, man. I dare say that the majority of people viewing these forums aren't too concerned about how the HV20 might stand up to combat use or other use outside the scope of its design. I think we care a lot about the camera's usability for the tasks it was intended. Your backpedaling response about usage beyond "just what the manual says" has nothing to do with what you originally posted. You didn't come in warning us about using the HV20 in extreme cold. That info didn't come out until later. You posted with the express desire to bash the camera and Canon for some perceived defect. A defect of your own making, as it turns out. So save your disingenuous rewrite trying to convince us that you were only trying to be helpful. Actually, you were helpful in proving that there's usually a good reason why manufacturers specify the operating parameters of their products. So that when you push-the-envelope types get throttled by your own hubris us color-inside-the-lines types can laugh at and ridicule you. For that I say, thank you.:hv20-smilie84:

[nolonemo]

Not all of us plan to use the HV20 just for backyard BBQ's or little league games. Serious people need to know what this camera can really take. Not just "what the manual says" it will

The problem is that you created a thread with an alarmist title spreading FUD. The fact that the camera doesn't work well in strong winds 10 degrees centigrade below its operating specifications is not a "HUGE problem," in fact it's not even a problem at all. The problem is trying to get the camera to do something its not designed to do. Sort of like complaining that your feet got cold during the shoot wearing basketball shoes.

The people on this forum are generally pretty laid back and helpful. If you're getting bashed, it's most likely because you were wrong in the first place. Getting in people's face and acting condescending aren't going to change that.

[1]

Sorry, lance; I didn't read the whole thread, and this was probably suggested already; but if you're having problems shooting at really low temps, I'd suggest a small warming blanket (12V), or some warming packs. Even the RED at $17500 needs those for low temp recording, and that doesn't even have a TAPE!!
Keeping equipment warm with such measures is not really uncommon, and not dependent on the price of the equipment.

If your Sony 8mm cams did perform where some other equipment doesn't it might not be so much a failure of the other equipment, but speaks to a neat design/feature of the Sony's.

[Lance Campeau]

@ CycleWriter

For the second time... Do you have anything actual experience to speak of? No? I guess your just interested to trying to sound smart with your verbose postings.

Please visit my website >>> www.LanceCampeau.com

There you can see what ACTUAL experience looks like...

Can you provide the same? Didn't think so...

[Dodgy Nick]

Please visit my website >>> www.LanceCampeau.com


http://img233.imageshack.us/img233/6636/lancegi1.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

:hv20-smilie50::hv20-smilie50::hv20-smilie50:

[Lance Campeau]

Now that's funny... :hv20-smilie84:

[Lance Campeau]

The worst part of all this is that that camera doesn't give you ANY indication at all that there might be a problem

The camera should indicate that there is a problem, enough said...

[CycleWriter]

Originally Posted by Lance Campeau:
The worst part of all this is that that camera doesn't give you ANY indication at all that there might be a problem


The camera should indicate that there is a problem, enough said...
Oh my God, now you think the camera should speak up to remind you of what is clearly printed in the manual? Maybe some mood ring-type device that responds to ambient temperature. :hv20-smilie87: This is getting way too comical. No, Lance, I don't have the vast experience in video that you have. Which makes it all the more humorous that you fail to grasp how ridiculous you sound in your defenses of your position. Someone with your experience should certainly have known better, don't you think? I'm just a lowly video hack eeking out a living doing small, niche-market documentaries, but I know enough not to bash a manufacturer in public for a problem of my own making. My first post in this forum was about the poor low-light performance of the HV20, but I didn't go off shouting that it was a defect. Thankfully, some of the many helpful people in here responded with techniques that allowed me to see the true capabilities of this fine camera. I doubt that would have happened had I titled the thread, "HV20 has HUGE problem shooting in low light!" and then tried to present it as a defect rather than my own unfamiliarity with the camera. But I guess that's what makes this forum interesting. Lots of personality types to entertain us. For me, I'm often referred to as a manic-depressive, passive-aggressive social misfit with narcissistic complex. I kinda like that description.:hv20-smilie84::hv20-smilie84:

[Lance Campeau]

I see it as this...

-By all normal indications, the camera reported that it was recording.
-in reality, there was a error and it was not recording.

Whatever the actual cause...

-my error (shooting in a temperature lower then recommended)
-interface design (no indication that cold was now effecting the performance)

A camera that says it's recording when it's not IS a huge and potentially costly problem.

My experience with other DV cameras (panasonic & sony) as well as my older Hi-8 equipment showed me, on several occasions, that recording in extreme conditions was not only possible but a suprisingly reliable technique regardless of what the manufacture suggested. To avoid a massive product recall, These items are frequently designed to handle conditions far worse than stated in the owners manual (hot sun, moisture, sand, rain, snow etc...) It also has to stand up to tests conducted by agencies like Underwriters Laboratory and The Canadian Standards Association. If the product failed at the first instance of adverse conditions it's reputation would suffer and the product sales would drop. Take a look at how many broken Samsung camcorders are for sale on Ebay (or JVC for that matter).

If the HV20 has a sensitivity to cold unlike other models in it's class, people will want to know this information before buying. The urgency of my post has brought light to this subject, maybe it wasn't the best way to do it, but the point is to try and solve the small problem before it becomes bigger.

You can bet that camera designers read these posts just as much as the users. Maybe it will help with future designs...

[CycleWriter]

At the risk of further beating this horse to death, let me just say that I think you are overreacting, overreaching and overthinking the problem. This is a sub-$1000 camera that provides fairly cutting-edge capabilities. If companies were to manufacture products with your mindset we would never be able to afford them. Damn Canon for not building in a higher margin of error in their operating specs. As for UL and CSA, I don't believe either certifies products for their usability, only for their safety and adherence to standards related to electrical devices. There is nothing about the HV20 that would lead a reasonable person to think it capable of working beyond its specified operating range. That you have done so with other cameras is irrelevant. There is no standardization for such devices that would give credence to the idea that one will work the same as another. I'm glad you found out, empirically, what many of us could have surmised even without your anecdotal evidence. If I ever travel north during the winter to shoot some video I will feel duly informed by your travails. Can we move on now?:hv20-smilie77:

[Lance Campeau]

and with a cliché, we end the madness...

"They don't make em' like they used to."

:hv20-smilie77:

[Duke]

Just an idea, but some tapes use liquid lubricant and others use dry lubricant. You might try different ones to see if it makes a difference, However, I'd probably just invest in one of those plastic bags of chemicals that heat up for a couple hours when you heat them.

Duke

[winston vargas]

Forget the Maxell tape. if you want to shoot HD then use a tape like the Panasonic PQ or AMQ tapes, no real need to use the HDV tapes. Clean the tape path with a head cleaner and stick to the same tape brand. Do not use old tapes, and if you have to use a tape that has been previously recorded erase it by recording a black signal., This will also maintain your time code if you decide that you want to play back from time to time as you shoot.

Winston

[1]

Lance, you seem more interested in "making your point" than trying to find a reasonable solution. I suggested to use some warming device (cover/pack/blanket) which is quite commonly used in cold weather for film and video; yet this thread seems to be going nowhere other than in circles.

I think there's plenty people here that offered good suggestions, and if some got a bit upset; well, that would be partly due to the way the original title and post read, I think.

I feel not much more can be gained by keeping this thread open.

You are dissatisfied with the HV20 and have now clearly stated why.
Fair enough.

At the very least, I think you should give heed to Duke and Winston's suggestions and try the Pana tapes. Might turn out all the issues aren't even cam related. If they are, there's ways you can still use the cam under the conditions you require by following other suggestions.

Best of luck with this...