Color matching XH-A1 to HV20/HV30

[Lunchbox]

I tried to match the clips from XHa1 and Hv20. Here's my best effort :) Someday I can do better.. just need more practice.

Orignial HV20
http://hottaky.com/hv20/tracy-hv20.jpg

HV20 Color Corrected
http://hottaky.com/hv20/tracy-hv20-cc.jpg

Original XH-A1
http://hottaky.com/hv20/tracy-a1.jpg

[Lunchbox]

I think I'm getting better and better each time to match the color bewteen XHA1 and HV20 :)

http://hottaky.com/hv20/sophiahv20.jpg

http://hottaky.com/hv20/sophiahv20CC.jpg

http://hottaky.com/hv20/sophiaxha1.jpg

[rashomon]

Looks like you lowered the contrast and raised the exposure. If that matches the A1, I don't want either. :hv20-smilie03:

Thanks for the comparison though. If I were to go with the best photo without looking at the result, I'd pick the contrast and clarity of the HV20 all day long.

[Ivan Fuentes]

I think I'm getting better and better each time to match the color bewteen XHA1 and HV20 :)


I liked the non-cc HV20 footage better :hv20-smilie77:

Although, there is no doubt that the XH-A1 is, in fact, superior to the HV. Plus you have soooo much control of your picture. I'd love to have one. If I don't, it isn't because I think HV is better, but just because I can't afford it. Saying HV20 is actually better, would be fooling myself.

[Lunchbox]

Looks like you lowered the contrast and raised the exposure. If that matches the A1, I don't want either. :hv20-smilie03:

Thanks for the comparison though. If I were to go with the best photo without looking at the result, I'd pick the contrast and clarity of the HV20 all day long.

I wish it's all that easy. I use a "Color Matching" filter that I need to match the shadow, highlight and midtone area of the clips. Then adjust some of the grey level between them.

[Lunchbox]

On one more thing, the XH-A1 is still new to me. I shot this wedding last October. That was before I discovered so many presets I can download.

http://dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?t=81071

Now I am using these presets during shooting based on the lighting and environment. It gives me so much better fun and joy to shoot with XH-A1. I also have to lower the contrast -1 and color -1 on HV20 to make it easier to match.

Now I realized the default XHA1 video is quite plain but it's best for color correction during post.

http://www.hv20.com/showthread.php?t=4895

Again, I know we are all HV20 fans here. When I lay down video from both XH-A1 and HV20 side by side, it is noticably the video quality of A1 is so much better than HV20. After all, XH-A1 is 5 times more expensive than HV20.

[doyouknowdave]

in some cases i like the original HV20 screenshot better. i just think it shows the colors better sometimes.

but i have a friend with an XH A1 and i have an HV20. Once you find the right settings, the XH A1 is a lot superior. So many options.

[bytehoven]

Hi...

I'm new 'round HV20, but may I say I thought the HV20 shots Taki showed were pretty good and highly tweakable.

Any post tweaks might have dialed in the image somewhere between the A1 and the HV20 shots shown. The blacks in the A1 shots definitely need to come down, while the HV20 had real nice blacks. A modest effort to expand from the middle to the top IRE range might make the HV20 near perfect.

Does the A1 have an auto mode which allows offsets to be applied? If yes, it would be nice to apply an offset to take the auto exposure down a notch or two.

I am waiting on my HV20 to arrive and I'm looking forward playing with the beast.

[Lunchbox]

I have been shooting using both Canon XH-A1 and HV20 in events. It takes a while for me to learn to match the color tone from footage of these 2 cameras. I think I can manage it pretty good now.

I am using the Matrox RTX2 card that has such feature to match color from two clips by referencing the shadow/highlight/midtone area of two clips. It works very well. I also printed a Black/White/Grey card using photoshop. Then I will shoot a few seconds of that card in the location. In post, I can just match them easiliy. I heard there is a a similar feature in Premiere but I didn't bother to find out.

Recently, I tried using XH-A1 custom preset library downloaded from DVInfo.net. By using Preset #13 in XH-A1 that can closely match with HV20 setting color -1, brightness +1, contrast -1.

http://hottaky.com/hv20/preset13-hv20.jpg http://hottaky.com/hv20/preset13-A1.jpg

It's not a 100% match but is pretty close.

[Ian-T]

That's definitely a match.... Looks so much better than your previous attempts. I'm guessing here...but by the field of view I'd say the HV20 is on the left and the A1 on the right?

[Lunchbox]

Ian, this is different. I didn't color match the two images here. They are straight out from the cameras.

hint hint.. in the second picture, my HV20 is showing in the video.

[Ian-T]

Ian, this is different. I didn't color match the two images here. They are straight out from the cameras.

hint hint.. in the second picture, my HV20 is showing in the video.OK... the field of view looks a little wider on the right hand photo...that's what I was basing my guess on.

[bytehoven]

Very close. The A1 could use just a touch more contrast as it looks to be just a little compressed compared to the HV20.

The A1 also looks softer. Was that just a focus issue?

[Lunchbox]

Unlike HV20 that you can set contrast/sharpness/brightness, A1 has lots of settings but it gets too technical for me to understand. So I only use the preset download from dvinfo.net.

http://dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?t=81071

With all the presets available, it makes A1 very powerfun and very fun to use.

[Lunchbox]

Shooting 30F on XH-A1 and 30P on HV30. Using the VIVIDRBG preset on A1. Color match in Premiere with Matrox tool.

http://hottaky.com/hv20/jp-hv30.jpg

http://hottaky.com/hv20/jp-hv30cc.jpg

http://hottaky.com/hv20/jp-xha1.jpg

I think I can match the color pretty close :)

[NextWaveG]

Here's a question for you, Taky.

My friend is doing an indy film and using an XH A1. He was interested in using my HV30 with my DOF adapter for some of the shots. He plans on showing this at Sundance and it will obviously be on a big screen. In your opinion, would the HV30 produce a good enough image to have shots along side the XH A1?

[Lunchbox]

HV30's PQ is good. But if put side by side to XHA1, it shows less detail (in my opinion). I always do HV20/30 in wide shot and XHA1 as closeup. In that case, the visual difference is less. Color output and tone of video is different too. It's tricky to get them match.

If you don't want to do a lot of color correction in post, I would suggest using the Custom Preset #13 from DVInfo in XHA1. That match close enough to HV20.

[Ian-T]

Taky, I think this is the closest you have come so far in trying to match both cams. One thing though...the back wall below the mirror...the A1 has a little bit deeper green than the HV30 above. That's strange because the green dresses match in both pictures...but the green wall is slightly off (or maybe it's just me).


Edit: Have you considered shooting with the "Vivid" preset in the HV20? I don't know about the different settings in the A1 but I do know the HV20/30 has a Vivid mode. I'm not sure how much that would affect the overall picture...but when I look at the detail in the background...for example: The pattern on the wall just above the doorway...I can see more detail in the HV30's picture than I do on the A1. That goes for the green on the wall below also. Just a thought.

Edit 2: Oh that was freaky...I just jumped right back into this thread...must be you Taky.

[Lunchbox]

Ian, thanks for your comment. I'm still learning. My skill is better now. I also bring together a grey scale card with me to shoot so it's easier to reference the highlight/shadow/midtone in post to match the color.

I have tried the VIVID preset but that makes the color in video too strong to be matched probably. It also seem to increaes the contrast too.

[Ian-T]

I think you might be right. I know it does increase the sharpness somewhat...but I think it does the contrast as well. I guess they are both somewaht in the same territory.

[Lunchbox]

Sorry Ian, I merged 3 threads creaetd by myself together. They are all about color matching A1 to HV20/30.

[2Bdecided]

Taky,

I've seen poorer colour matching on TV!

I'm sure your clients are very happy.

What format do you deliver to them?

Cheers,
David.

[Lunchbox]

DVDs. Some clients paid a premium to get BluRay :)

[booggerg]

The HV20 did damn good against the A1. Many of the out of camera shots from the HV20 looks better than the A1. Granted, the A1 has more flexibility with image adjustments so you can probably improve those results.. but purely from a IQ standpoint, any consumer camera that cam almost equal the quality of a pro-sumer camera is damn good!

[keesduif]

After buying a HV30 to use along with my XH-A1 I tried myself to match both. And I think it's not a hell of a job. See my example here (http://www.vimeo.com/902978). With the A1 I used my own Reality preset and with the HV30 I used custom settings as mentioned in the example. It's not perfect yet but it comes very close I think.

[Lunchbox]

Mind sharing me your Reality custom preset file and what you did to set your HV30 for matching look?

[keesduif]

Taky, my Reality preset is attached (Change the name. It's a real .cpf file but I'm not allowed to upload that). The custom settings of the HV30 were: Sharpness -, Color -, Contrast- and Brightness middle. I did a manual WB on both cams under the same conditions and used auto settings for all the rest. In post (Sony Vegas) I used the Sony Color Corector on the HV30 footage and did a little correction in mid- and high tones.

Hope this helps.
Greetings
Kees

[Lunchbox]

keesduif, thanks for sharing the preset file. However, I thought you created a preset that matches HV30's output without the need of color correction in post. That's what I have been doing is to CC footage of HV30 to match XHa1.

Then I found out Preset #13 "OUTSIDEN" from dvinfo.net is the cloest match to HV30's color straight out of the camera.

[keesduif]

Yes, I tried that after you wrote it in your post. But I dislike preset13 so much that I threw it away right after i tried it. So what I did is:
I consider the XH-A1 my main camera. That's my starting point and therefore the foortage of the A1 must be as perfect as possible. That's why I use it with my Reality preset because I like the result of that. Then I try to match the HV30 as close as possible so I can use that as a second cam to make inserts and totals. And I noticed that with a little CC in post I can match it more closely. My guess is that with these results I can mix the footage of both cams without my customers noticing it. So my starting point is different then yours I guess.

[Lunchbox]

I think we are doing the exact same thing. I based on XH-A1 VividRGB and color correct on HV30 footage to match XH-A1.

Preset13 OUTSIDEN is a little too soft for my taste. But it's the cloest matching look straight out of the tape without performing color correction.

[Steve Kahn]

Come on guys. I know we are all die hard HV20 fans here. But it has to make sense. So canon makes a consumer camcorder shooting dull videos so you can apply color correction at home? And it shoots "dull" video so it is perfect for colorists? It's a consumer camcorder.
By the very nature that you're comparing the two cam's footages and the fact that it's really just a toss up as to which one is the better really rationalizes why many defend this camera so vigorously.

Tacky, you may be afraid to shoot with a small camera like the HV20 because you feel that guests will not take you seriously or professionally. (And that may be what camera makers count on when they make "prosumer" cameras which are really not that different from their smaller brothers, other than the marketing strategy.)

It just comes down to the image - and they are comparable. After that... it's the quality of the DP - the human factor. That is all. The wedding guests will never give it a second thought as to the fact that you camera isn't big enough - neither will the bride or groom. All they want is a great DVD to watch.

(now, if there was suddenly a full frame 35mm CMOS cam, like the RED, on the market and under 10k... that would be different. That would be a vastly different animal. But even the Red Scarlet with its 2/3" chip will NOT be so different.

Also, please remember that the industry is going CMOS (and full frame CMOS chips will be the industry standard sooner rather than later) and your little HV has a CMOS rather than the ccds of the XL-H1, A1... et. al (btw I saw that the XL-A1 is rated at 7lux min where the HV20 is 3lux, for what that's worth) So despite it not being a 3 chip camera (which the RED ONE is NOT) your little HV20 is actually more advanced than the aging XL series which have 3 but slightly SMALLER chips than the HV20.



(btw you might find that it actually pays to be a bit stealthy in your shooting to get the more candid moments... So if you don't look like the videographer, all the better!)

[Lunchbox]

First of all, my name is not Tacky, and I'm not tacky at all.

You are absolutely wrong the fact that guest only care about picture quality. The truth is, some of the guests will never even find out how the picture quality will be at all. They won't be seeing the footage. It's the paid clients. If the paid customers see me using amature equipment while their friends using better equipment than I do in the wedding, they wouldn't think it's justify to pay me as a professional. The final DVD might woow them, but the impression on the wedding day already gone. Then words spread around on those online wedding forums. That's pretty much the end of the career.

This is a video for you to learn more about lux. You will see lux rating in product spec is meaningless.

http://www.digitaljuice.com/djtv/segment_detail.asp?sid=217&sortby=&page=1&kwid=0&show=all_videos

[Steve Kahn]

First of all, my name is not Tacky, and I'm not tacky at all.
Sorry about that. I apologize for my mistake.


If the paid customers see me using amature equipment while their friends using better equipment than I do in the wedding, they wouldn't think it's justify to pay me as a professional. The final DVD might woow them, but the impression on the wedding day already gone. Then words spread around on those online wedding forums. That's pretty much the end of the career.

I think you just proved my point. The quality of the two cameras you tested are comparable and their differences are negligible.

(again, I am sorry about misspelling your name. No offense intended)

[Lunchbox]

Steve,

I think your point was the appearance of HV20 is good enough in professional paid wedding job. :)

Anyway, we all know HV20 is capable of producing good quality video. I am indeed using 2 HV30s together with XH-A1 in weddings. If there is a huge difference in quality of footage, I wouldn't be using them. The thread here is about color matching footage from both cams.

:)

Taky

[Lunchbox]

Now I'm addicted to XH-A1 VividRGB preset. I'm able to color match very closely using HV30 in post. HV30 is shot in 30p Tv mode with Color Depth +1, Contrast -1. Here's the result (I'll show the first photo to the end so you can compare XH-A1 with the HV30 original frame).

http://hottaky.com/hv20/yvonneHV30original.jpg

http://hottaky.com/hv20/yvonneHV30CC.jpg

http://hottaky.com/hv20/yvonneXHA1.jpg

http://hottaky.com/hv20/yvonneHV30original.jpg

[superzero]

The quality of the two cameras you tested are comparable and their differences are negligible.

While it is certainly possible to produce beautiful result with the HVx0 cameras - to suggest that the differences between the two cameras are negligible is absurd. The A1 outperforms it's little brother in picture quality, low light performance, and most importantly, fast and easy manual control. The HVx0 cameras are fantastic, indeed - but let's not get carried away.