Inverse Telecine w/ TMPGEnc 4.0 XPress

[propellerhead]

FWIW, I've had pretty good results using the Inverse telecine/pulldown removal functionality in TMPGEnc 4.0 XPress. I haven't had a chance to thoroughly verify the audio sync but it seems okay on short clips.

If anyone is interested I can post some sample clips or some screen crops showing the deinterlaced restored frame.

Basic steps:

1.) Capture M2T file.
2.) Load file into TMPGEnc.
3.) Once the clip is loaded, click Filter edit.
4.) Select the Deinterlace filter. Set the Deinterlace Mode to "24 fps (Special Animation)" and set the Deinterlace Method to "Inverse Pulldown".
5.) If you want, you can apply other filters at this time. When you're finished applying filters, click "OK".
6.) Select the Format button at the top of the window and choose your preferred format. Make sure you choose a format and codec that supports HD resolutions and 24p frame rate. I don't have any intermediate codecs but I've had very good results outputting to various MPEG4 formats in both 720 and 1080.
7.) Now encode your video clip. You can setup the filter set as a template and apply the filters to batches of clips.

[Kilgor270]

I would love to see a sample of the 60i converted to 24p with this method. Do you know if there is a way to batch convert all of your clips?

I am using Premiere Pro 2.0 and would love to find an alternative to Cineform Aspect HD. The Cineform is a great product, but too expensive for the average joe.

[propellerhead]

Yes, you can do batches of clips within the main TMPGEnc application by loading them into the source list and applying a filter template to all source clips. You can tell TMPGEnc to either render the clips into separate files or combine them into one.

There is a separate "Batch Encode Tool" that I haven't used yet. I imagine that the Batch Encode Tool allows you to automate the entire process end to end eliminating the need to step through the format and encode steps.

I'll try to post some footage tonight. At the very minimum I'll post some screen capture stills that show a de-interlaced frame sequence.

[Goose]

guys to save you the bother you can just watch the 24p m2t files in media player classic and use the Dscaler5 IVTC mod to show it in beautiful 24hz on the fly! No need for offline pulldown if al you want to do is view it. If you want to edit it then yes you need to use AE or some other method.

[propellerhead]

Goose, we're trying to remove the pulldown to edit on a 24p timeline.

Here's a sample clip I made using the inverse pulldown function in TMPGEnc.

Right Click, Save As... (http://hv20.info/yopu/inversepulldownfire-24p.divx) (clip updated to the 24p version)

[Kilgor270]

I tried to play the avi clip...but my media player says it doesnt have the correct codec. This happened on two different machines.

Can you try reposting? I would love to see the results.

What is your exact workflow?

Capture in Premiere Pro 2 as Native HDV 60i
Batch convert with Xpress ? What format do you batch convert too?
Edit in a 24p timeline?



Thanks
Kilgor

[pascalbrown]

Clip plays fine, you just need the correct codec. Install the divX codecs...

Looks good apart from the little camera shake in the wind (or so it looks like).

[propellerhead]

Clip plays fine, you just need the correct codec. Install the divX codecs...

Looks good apart from the little camera shake in the wind (or so it looks like).

Yeah, I shot that hand held and realized afterward that I had turned the OIS off. I have terrible tremors (runs in the family). Watching me thread a needle is more suspenseful than a Hitchcock film. ;)

Kilgore, the basic workflow is as I described in my original post. You might want to download the trial version of TMPGEnc Xpress 4 and HDVSlpit. It will be easy to follow along if you have them in front of you. Hit me up if it doesn't make sense once you've given it a try.

[Kilgor270]

Thanks Guys.

I realized myself I didnt have divx on those machines. The clip plays perfectly.

Hey you mentioned HDVEdit. Where might I find that software at?

or did you mean HDVsplit ?

http://strony.aster.pl/paviko/hdvsplit.htm

Thanks

Kilgor

[24Peter]

Watching me thread a needle is more suspenseful than a Hitchcock film. ;)

LOL - Don't I know that feeling...


Kilgore, the basic workflow is as I described in my original post. You might want to download the trial version of TMPGEnc Xpress 4 and HDVEdit. It will be easy to follow along if you have them in front of you. Hit me up if it doesn't make sense once you've given it a try.

I might give TMPGEnc a try (you need Xpress 4 - not whatever the free download is right?) If I have Vegas I don't need HDVEdit right?

[Lunchbox]

Goose, we're trying to remove the pulldown to edit on a 24p timeline.

Here's a sample clip I made using the inverse pulldown function in TMPGEnc.

Right Click, Save As... (http://hv20.info/yopu/inversepulldownfire.divx)

I downloaded and played the clip. My media player reported the clip is in 29.97 frame rate but not 24. Any idea?

Thanks

Taky

[propellerhead]

Hey you mentioned HDVEdit. Where might I find that software at?
or did you mean HDVsplit ?

http://strony.aster.pl/paviko/hdvsplit.htm


Ah, yes. I'm sorry. You are correct. I meant HDVSplit.


I downloaded and played the clip. My media player reported the clip is in 29.97 frame rate but not 24. Any idea?

Thanks

Taky

Crap! I'm feeling like a dork right about now. It looks like uploaded the wrong clip. I had created two test clips. One in 24p and the other in 30p. I wasn't organized and I didn't name my test clips uniquely. I'll have to upload a new clip when I get back to my home office.

I also created a 60p clip I deinterlaced from some 60i footage I shot and then dumped into a 24p timeline in Vegas at 40% speed. I thought it looked pretty good. I'll upload that as well.




I might give TMPGEnc a try (you need Xpress 4 - not whatever the free download is right?) If I have Vegas I don't need HDVEdit right?

Peter, you bring up a good point to clarify. I'm using the commercial version of TMPGEnc 4.0 Xpress. A trial version is available. AFAIK, it's not hobbled.


http://tmpgenc.pegasys-inc.com/en/product/te4xp.html

[Kilgor270]

So I did the TMPGEnc reverse inverse telecine last night to a original capture from my HV20. The clip was orginally shot in the 24p mode. TMPGEnc was able to correctly process the clip from 60i to 23.976.

I then launched Premiere Pro 2 and created a custom project based on the 1080 preset. My project settings only required me to change the frame rate. Everthing so far so good. I imprted the TMPGEnc processed clip and Premiere correctly displayed it was 23.976 :)

Now the sad news..I had a big red ugly bar. The only way I could play the clip was to process or render the timeline. Since the original footage is HDV and I also do not have Cineform or similar, what would be the conversion format of choice to stay at 1080 23.976 and also be able to play on the timeline without ned for rendering? H.264? I did a uncompressed avi to keep the quality as high as possible.

I can live with a batch convert of my source footage via TMPGEnc but I do not want to render my timeline just to play the clip.

There has to be an alternative to the $500 Aspect HD plugin?

HELP ME!!

Kilgor

[Lunchbox]

Instead of creating your custom project in Premiere, you can download the Canon 24p project preset from adobe.

http://www.adobe.com/support/downloads/detail.jsp?ftpID=3408

What file format is it after converted from TMPGEnc?

[Kilgor270]

I'm not sure the canon 24p preset was made with the HV20 in mind. I believe that was for the XL series of cameras. They use two different methods of recording 24p to HDV tape

I used TMPGEnc Xpress to transcode my HDV clip to an uncompressed avi. It wasnt a matter of skipping frames....as soon as I dropped it on the timeline it turned red.

I want to edit in HDV@ 23.976. Maintaining the highest possible quality. When I am finished I will downrez to SD or WEB versions.


Any ideas?

Kilgor

[propellerhead]

Kilgor,

If you used a 1080 preset, was it an HDV 1440x1080 preset or an HD 1920x1080? I'm thinking you dumped a clip into the time line that didn't match the projects specifications which forces a render.

[Lunchbox]

In Premiere Pro 2.0, it will re-render any frame even if you dump an HDV clip to a HDV preset.

You can still use the Canon 24p preset to edit video from HV20 after you successfully remove the pulldown using other tools.

If you don't want to pay for Cineform, you can look around the site for many free tools to remove the pull down. You can also get the free Lagarith codec to convert to an uncompress AVI. H.264, Divx, Vidx, those are final output codec to be used. It's better use an intermediate codec or a lossless codec for editing before the output.

[24Peter]

I'm not sure the canon 24p preset was made with the HV20 in mind. I believe that was for the XL series of cameras. They use two different methods of recording 24p to HDV tape

I used TMPGEnc Xpress to transcode my HDV clip to an uncompressed avi. It wasnt a matter of skipping frames....as soon as I dropped it on the timeline it turned red.

I want to edit in HDV@ 23.976. Maintaining the highest possible quality. When I am finished I will downrez to SD or WEB versions.


Any ideas?

Kilgor

It's probably the size of the file. I tried TMPGnc Xpress today. I took an 85MB .m2t clip 24p from my HV20 and tried to do the inverse telecine to an uncompressed 1440X1080 24p .avi file - 2.77 GB! That is insane 85MB v. 2.77GB I don't think so.

[Kilgor270]

I downloaded the Canon 24p preset and installed it. No problem. I also downloaded and installed the Lagarith codec. No problem. I took a clip from my HV20 shot in 24p mode and loaded up TMPGEnc and did all the mojo. This time I tried the new Lagarith codec as well as a few others.

My Premiere Pro project is based off of the new Canon HDV preset.

I still cannot import any converted file and not have the red bar appear immediately. I can however import my non processed HV20 clips in a Adobe HDV 60i project and be able to play them fine.

Is there any way to import any flavor of the HDV 23.976 clip that doesnt require Adobe to render it? Aspect HD is looking more and more attractive to use with the HV20 :hv20-smilie01:

Thanks

[Lunchbox]

I imported the m2t file to Premiere and there isn't the red bar.

From what I heard, Premiere CS3 handle better editing HDV. That could be another option.

Other than that, getting a plugin seems necessary if you do a lot of heavy HDV editing. I'm looking into Cineform AspectHD or the Matrox RT.X2.

[Kilgor270]

So I guess we are at the end of this thread.

Premiere Pro 2
Canon 24p preset
TMPGEnc Xpress 4
24P HDV 1440 x 1080
3:2 pulldown removal

There is no way to convert the original HDV 24p / 60i capture with TMPGEnc Xpress 4 to any format that Premiere Pro will play on the timeline without rendering first.

Do we have a consensus?

Thanks
Kilgor

[propellerhead]

So I guess we are at the end of this thread.

Premiere Pro 2
Canon 24p preset
TMPGEnc Xpress 4
24P HDV 1440 x 1080
3:2 pulldown removal

There is no way to convert the original HDV 24p / 60i capture with TMPGEnc Xpress 4 to any format that Premiere Pro will play on the timeline without rendering first.

Do we have a consensus?

Thanks
Kilgor

It sounds like it.

Really my initial goal was to simply be able to transcode my native HDV files to a format that was more efficient in terms of space and would allow me to play the clips back via my Xbox360. TMPEGEnc is great at doing that and as a bonus it can do the pulldown removal. No rendering in Premiere would have been an extra bonus fo me.

If I decide to start using Premiere I'll probably spend the $250 on Neo-HDV and use the Cineform intermediate codec.

[FreddieZ]

Hi, I followed your suggestion and used the trial version of TMPgen 4.0 on some HV20 footage shot in 24 mode. It worked well to create 24 discreet frames per second. Stupid Question #1: Does this pretty much take care of that "no pulldown flags" issue I keep reading about?

My TMPgen Quicktime output files are HUGE- well over a GB per minute and it took my slow P4 system 40 minutes to cook that-- yikes.

Stupid #2: Is there a faster way or a better way to make these true 24P conversions from the HV20?

[propellerhead]

Hey Freddie-

Yes, using TMPGEnc is one method for pulldown removal from material without the flags.

Bear in mind that the time it takes to transcode your material and the resulting size of the file is largely dependant on the codec your using. Similar to AVI files, Quicktime files can use different codecs. TMPGEnc allows you to choose your preferred codec. You'll need to choose the appropriate codec for your needs.

As to whether or not there is a better means for doing the pulldown removal, I'm sure you'll get quite a few opinions on that subject. WHile I am sure there are others, aside from the Farnsworth method, TMPGEnc is the only tool I am personally aware of that will do the pulldown removal AND transcode in one step.

[FreddieZ]

Thanks again, prop. I'm learning tons & tons thanks to you and others here. I've got the codec concept now. Quality=more render time=greater file size, right?

You said TMPGEnc 4.0 is the only product you are aware of- I was wondering if anyone here has tried the latest Sorenson Squeeze to achieve the same thing?

I'm astounded that all this rendering must take place just to prep raw footage for edit in true 24P. I'm trying to wrap my head around what it would
take to prep 4 1-hour cassettes of a musical performance. It's punishing.

For me, I'm wondering if I should just edit at HDV 60i, then once I'm finished, use a different software process to reach that cherished 24P look. Seems it could be alot less render time. But would it look as good? DVFilm.com product comes to mind- perhaps there are others.

[24Peter]

Well not to beat a dead horse here. But - if Canon simply included the 24p pulldown flags, most of the NLE's out there could do automatic removal without issue. On a program like Vegas, that would mean no third party software needed, no huge intermediate files, 20% smaller .m2t files and 20% faster rendering times.

I got really spoiled by the way Vegas handles 24p DV files. Plop them on the timeline and boom - UR done! Pulldown automatically removed. Edit away.

I think there's still an opportunity for people to make their voices heard with Canon on this subject.

[nervestaple]

I have tried the process with a number of different codecs - Lagarith, Huffyuv, uncompressed, and Xvid. All of the codecs except xvid produced an output file that played like a slideshow - about a frame or two per second. Only xvid produced a file that played in media player classic like an actual movie. Is it just a processing issue? Can my computer not handle the other codecs?

[FreddieZ]

Well not to beat a dead horse here. But - if Canon simply included the 24p pulldown flags, most of the NLE's out there could do automatic removal without issue. On a program like Vegas, that would mean no third party software needed, no huge intermediate files, 20% smaller .m2t files and 20% faster rendering times.

I got really spoiled by the way Vegas handles 24p DV files. Plop them on the timeline and boom - UR done! Pulldown automatically removed. Edit away.

I think there's still an opportunity for people to make their voices heard with Canon on this subject.

Peter, I agree that in this day and age of home-HDvideo-home-HDediting, it was wrong for CANON to leave out the "pulldown flags" necessary for easy HDediting at 24P. They don't make editing systems do they? I believe it was just a foolish miscalculation of their HV20 customer's needs, rather than a strategic marketing effort to not interfere with sales of their higher-priced HDV cameras.

Maybe HV20.com and the other online communities can institute high profile Stickies that become, in effect, an online petition as well as an early warning system for saavy shoppers. There is strength in numbers and word of this limitation will filter down faster to salespeople at the retail shops. Ideally, people could read a short description of the issue and easily grasp the limitations of this otherwise fine camera, especially as it relates to editing.

p.s. I bought the NTSC HV20, but perhaps it would have been wiser to get the PAL model which I assume would create pretty much the same film look and still make wonderful DVDs. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

[Kilgor270]

I have tested the TMPGEnc to the end and back. Agreed it is the only other way to get 60i to 24p. It will remove the 3:2 pulldown so you can work on a 24p timeline.

It will not make a file that Premiere Pro can play natively without rendering first. So what you get is a double processing hit in time. First the time to convert 60i to 24p with TMPGEnc and then the time Premiere Pro takes to render the preview so you can actually play the clip on the 24p timeline.

My thinking is it just isnt worth it. You could always try to post process your final edit and try to remove the 3:2, but the results will be hit or miss depending on if you have dissolves, etc.

Aspect HD is the only real product at this point in time for Premiere Pro users who want to work with the HV20 and 24p timelines. PERIOD. Open your wallet and enjoy your HV20 and 24p.

Night all

Kilgor

[FreddieZ]

Thanks for your comments K. btw, TMPGEnc 4.0 can render in QT with Avid DNxHD codecs- have you tried that product by any chance?

I need HD software that can do multicam ala avid. Do you know if Premiere Pro or Vegas has that feature?

I would agree that post-processing the pulldown would be hit & miss, but I'm hoping there's a magic bullet out there somewhere so that I can avoid all that horrible pre-processing.



I have tested the TMPGEnc to the end and back. Agreed it is the only other way to get 60i to 24p. It will remove the 3:2 pulldown so you can work on a 24p timeline.

It will not make a file that Premiere Pro can play natively without rendering first. So what you get is a double processing hit in time. First the time to convert 60i to 24p with TMPGEnc and then the time Premiere Pro takes to render the preview so you can actually play the clip on the 24p timeline.

My thinking is it just isnt worth it. You could always try to post process your final edit and try to remove the 3:2, but the results will be hit or miss depending on if you have dissolves, etc.

Aspect HD is the only real product at this point in time for Premiere Pro users who want to work with the HV20 and 24p timelines. PERIOD. Open your wallet and enjoy your HV20 and 24p.

Night all

Kilgor

[Lunchbox]

Aspect HD is the only real product at this point in time for Premiere Pro users who want to work with the HV20 and 24p timelines. PERIOD. Open your wallet and enjoy your HV20 and 24p.

Night all

Kilgor

AspectHD isn't the only product. Matrox video hardware editing products like the Axio also provide these features. However, the price is much higher than AspectHD software only solution.

[Kilgor270]

Matrox makes some great products. Unfortunately there Axio does not capture a 60i 29.97 frame rate source and convert it on capture to 23.976.
They do have project presets for 1080p 24 frame timelines. That is great if your footage already has the pulldown removed or is recorded on HDV as 24p.
60i is a different animal.

I still stand by Aspect HD as the only "practical" way to work in 24p with the HV20 and Premiere Pro 2.0 or CS3

Kilgor

[jameshow]

Important!!! 24f reverse pulldown. The canon (avchd) conversion 24>30 convert back to 24 (23.97)

Actually to correctly remove pulldown from canons 24f on TMPGEnc 4.0 XPress choose in filters:

deinterlace filter
-deinterlace always>top field>interpolation simple

Read the instructions that come with the TMPGEnc program! The "Inverse pulldown" option is not literally that on this program, if you try the different options you'll see the difference.

[jabloomf1230]

I still stand by Aspect HD as the only "practical" way to work in 24p with the HV20 and Premiere Pro 2.0 or CS3

Kilgor

You can stand by it, but Cineform doesn't. Aspect HD was discontinued a while back. You now have to cough up a lot more loose change to get accelerated Cineform editing in Premiere, as Prospect HD/4K is the only option.

[Rumpelgeist]

Important!!! 24f reverse pulldown. The canon (avchd) conversion 24>30 convert back to 24 (23.97)

Actually to correctly remove pulldown from canons 24f on TMPGEnc 4.0 XPress choose in filters:

deinterlace filter
-deinterlace always>top field>interpolation simple
You don't need to remove pulldown from 24F because it is native 24-fps progressive. Canon AVCHD camcorders do not record 24F.