Cheap Removable Harddrive System

[Lunchbox]

I have been using these mobile drive rack for a while. It gives your system virtually unlimited storage capability. There're lots of external enclosure or removable drive rack out there. This one is very cheap ($22) and you don't need to buy trays for each additional harddrive.

http://hottaky.com/hv20/tray.jpg

For more, continue to read it in my blog -> http://lacolorshop.com/blog/view.asp?id=40

[Lunchbox]

I thought of the advantages of using this removable rack,

1. THey are relatively cheap. Only $21 each. I bought one for my desktop, one for my media center PC. For my laptop, I mount one to an USB external enclosure too.

2. 500GB SATA harddrives are cheap these days. You can plug in any SATA harddrives in. Instantly, it shows up as another hdd in the system.

3. SATA hdd are hotswappable. Which mean you can plug in and unplug it while you computer is still running. Your hdd becomes like a giant floppy or DVD-RW disc.

4. Unlike other removable tray system, this one doesn't require you buying additional tray to fit each hdd you want to use. It instantly becomes unlimited stroage.

5. It's a SATA to SATA connection directly to your motherboard. You got the fastest speed (SATA-II 300) without another layer of data conversion. Unlike using USB or Firewire enclosure, it goes from SATA to USB/Firewire to SATA again

[jdog35]

Hey guys. Is there a specific type of SATA drive to buy? i.e. one that is setup for being pulled in and out, or is it just like any other internal harddrive one might find to install on a CPU? Also, is there a difference in speed and usage using this internal setup you have shown compared an external system utilizing my network ethernet connection? Thanks!

[white_2kgt]

Hey guys. Is there a specific type of SATA drive to buy? i.e. one that is setup for being pulled in and out, or is it just like any other internal harddrive one might find to install on a CPU? Also, is there a difference in speed and usage using this internal setup you have shown compared an external system utilizing my network ethernet connection? Thanks!

you use standard SATA drives, yes there is a speed difference vs SATA and ethernet, SATA is MUCH MUCH MUCH faster.

[Lunchbox]

No. Any regular internal SATA drive will do. There are SATA-I (150mbps)and SATA-II (300mbps) hdd. Try to get SATA-II type hdd.

This removable system connect directly to your SATA port on your motherboard just like any regular SATA hdd. The speed is the same as your other internal hdd.

Compare to other external enclosure type (Firewire, USB, NAS), this should be the fastest since there isn't another layer of protocol conversion.

[freeflight]

Hi Taky,

How does it work for laptop? Do you still get SATA speed or go through SATA->USB conversion?

Thanks,

Kevin

I1. THey are relatively cheap. Only $21 each. I bought one for my desktop, one for my media center PC. For my laptop, I mount one to an USB external enclosure too.

[Lunchbox]

Fof laptop, I mount this to an 5.25 SATA external enclosure. Then connect it through USB to the computer. I haven't tested the speed yet but I'm sure it's as good but won't be as fast as connecting it directly to the motherboard. But for laptop, that's a cheap solution for unlimited removable storage.

[tcindie]

I'm not entirely sure how you do it, but there is a way to change the internal SATA devices to be considered removable devices. Both of the SATA drives in the machine I'm sitting at presently appear in the "safely remove hardware" tray icon listing..

[Lunchbox]

I don't know how exactly the OS handle this. One computer I have the removable drive is listed in the "Safe Remove Hardware" icon in the tray area. The other computer, I have to "Uninstall" it in Device Manager.

[tcindie]

I suppose it's possibly dependent on the controller or the drive's firmware

[Taynt3d]

I've seen a very similar thing but it's USB-based. It's almost like a docking station for an internal drive. You just plug in the drive almost like plugging in a game cartridge into the dock. Then you can safely remove hardware. I guess the downside is you don't get the same speed as SATA? I forget the name of the unit, but I saw it on engadget or some such.

[Lunchbox]

There are things like that in the market long time ago using harddrive cartridges. IOMega has been making those Jaz drive long time ago and now have the REV drive. There were also other failure product like castlewood ORB drive (2gb each cartrdige).

All these are using proprietary hard drive cartridge and they are expensive. This removable system use no tray and regularly SATA drives in native SATA connections. Best of all, it's cheap.

[CJDaniels]

"Cons: Lock is a joke for security, hower is a good way to prevent 'accidental' ejection of enclosed drive."

I would be afraid of premature ejectulation.

I like the idea though.

[scsz]

Thanks for the link for this drive bay. I just got it and it works great (a little ugly though on my system, have to get some sort of cover to fill in the gaps left by the DVD drive I removed). Got a 500gb drirve for $100. Will fill it up and put in storage, then get another one. Nice thing about using these drives is later on could get one of those external multiple drive bays and plug them all in.

[Lunchbox]

I using this removable drive bay with 7 hdds. Just bought a "paper sorter" thingy from Office Depot. It's nice :)

http://hottaky.com/hv20/tray3.jpg

http://hottaky.com/hv20/tray2.jpg

http://hottaky.com/hv20/tray1.jpg

[scsz]

How to store the drives was going to be my next question. That holder looks good, but what about dust? I was thinking of labeling the drives and getting some static free bags to put them in. What is the best way to store a hard drive long term and is data on a hard drive just as good of an archival method as DVDs?

[SalaTar]

digging these:
http://www.wiebetech.com/products/RTX100.php

[Lunchbox]

harddrives are manufacturered sealed. There is no dust problem. Just imagine the inside of your computer case. With the air flow in and out, it's really dusty inside. It's not like a video tape head that performance will be affected by dust.

[scsz]

Thanks :)

[lordtangent]

Wow, this thing is really cool. I think I'm going to get one.

[ESTEBEVERDE]

Good Find! :hv20-smilie77:

[Mats]

harddrives are manufacturered sealed. There is no dust problem. Just imagine the inside of your computer case. With the air flow in and out, it's really dusty inside. It's not like a video tape head that performance will be affected by dust.


Would you consider the electronics on the outside of the drive sensitive? The risk of damage compared to sealed cases (unfortunately with USB or FW) must be bigger.

[Lunchbox]

Been using it for a few years now. No problem so far.

[Reeven]

Would these be sold at Best Buy?

[Lunchbox]

There's a link to buy from NewEgg. Chances BestBuy will carry is very low.

[Reeven]

Could you explain to me how this works? Do I have to take apart my computer in some way to attach it? I've never done any physical modifications to my computer anymore. Is this a neccesity for the SATA hard drives? My HP desktop is fairly new and has a slot labeled 'media drive' with a large hole in it, do you know if SATAs would fit in there?

Sorry for all the questions, but I'm new to all this, and these swappable drives just sound too good to be true.

[Lunchbox]

It's just like connecting a 5.25" DVD ROm drive. You connect with a SATA cable to your motherboard and a power cable from the motherboard. Mount it to a 5.25" drive bay. that's it. Since SATA is hot swappable, you can plug in and remove the HDD just like a giantic floppy disk. But I also click on the "Safely remove hardware" icon in the lower right tray area.

Watch out for the HP PC, their case has a piece of plastic block the opening of the tray.

[Reeven]

* quote removed *

Is there anywhere with detailed instructions on how putting it in works? I don't really understand any of this customizational stuff.

EDIT: Also, where would one get the hdds that go inside the tray?

[Lunchbox]

Reeven, can you please only quote if necessary? You can just use the "Post Reply" button on the left instead of the "Quote" button on the right to response.

Just as I said, it's as easy as installing a DVD Rom drive.

Any 3.5" SATA harddrive will work for such system. You can also buy from newegg.com. a 500GB 7200RPM SATA hdd costs about $100.

[Reeven]

I don't think I've ever installed a DVD drive.:(

[nathan118]

This is an interesting solution. I've been throwing around the idea of a of a RAID 1 solution though with two big 750 gig drives to hold videos and such. The easy removal of drives is nice for storage, but not the redundancy of a raid setup. Hmmm, more thinking to do!

[Lunchbox]

I don't think I've ever installed a DVD drive.:(


IF that's the case, maybe this external USB drive will be a better solution for you

http://www.amazon.com/Western-Digital-WDG1C5000N-Firewire-External/dp/B000EXTXSI

[kjv1611]

Reeven,

As far as adding in one of these drives, it shouldn't be all that difficult. Every case is different, but don't be afraid of it. Follow these simple steps (or of course go online somewhere and look for some info on installing/uninstalling CD/DVD drives - they are all over the web, I'm sure. I'm pretty sertain I've seen then with lots of pictures as well. Or if you can't get it done, you could always find a techie friend who might help.

My basic instructions:
1. Make sure you have an empty CD/DVD bay - in other words it should look like a spot where a CD/DVD drive would fit, but nothing is there but a plain plastic piece most likely - look from outside of computer.

2. If you have the space, order the part.

3. When the part comes in, and you're ready to devote about 30 minutes to an hour (I'm only saying this because it's your first time, and you wouldn't be as sure as someone who has handled pc hardware before - otherwise, you could do it in 5 to 15 minutes, depending upon your case.)... get ready to start.

4. Shut down the computer if running, and Unplug the power from the power supply.

5. Make sure you aren't electrostatically charged (for instance, don't be running your feet with just socks on accross carpet, then messing with comptuer internals. I don't think it's as big a deal as it used to be, but always be careful there. :)

6. It's worth saying to also turn off the power switch on your power supply (back of the comptuer) if you have one.

7. It's not a bad idea to be constantly touching some other piece of metal to help ground out any static electricity you may pick up. If your case has some steel framework, or if you have something else nearby made of steel, that generally will work. Though it doesn't mean that if you don't do this that you will fry everything. I think it used to happen more often than it does now. I've not had this problem once that I know of in about 7 years of tinkering.

8. Open the case (This I can't tell you for sure how to do - it depends upon the case). However, if you can't figure it out, and want help, post the make/model/description of the comptuer and/or case, and we can probably figure it out for you. I've opened many different cases.

9. Use your eyes to tell where your new drive piece will go. You'll likely have to remove a piece of plastic, and a piece of metal to install the new drive. Exactly how that is remove again depends. Sometimes, there are tabs to break, and sometimes, they just slide/clip in/out. I usually just guess at it if I don't already know about the particular case. If the metal has to be broken (tabs), you can just twist the metal back and forth until the tabs break.

10. Also check your motherboard/mainboard (where most everything is connected) for a (usually red or next usual black) connection that looks like it will fit the wire that came with the new drive - that will be the SATA connection. Don't worry about which end is which with the SATA cable, they are identical - that's nice about SATA. Also, make sure your power supply has a SATA power connector if the hard drive bay thingie only has SATA power inputs. If you don't have that connection on your power supply, you'll need to get an adapter - they're really cheap, probably less than the shipping you'd pay.

11. If you can see everything, and have the right parts, then slide in the drive, connect the wires, and put a couple screws into the drive bay. I would put at least 2 in each side if possible in this instance, b/c you'll want to make sure this one stays very stable, I would imagine. If it were an optical drive, that wouldn't matter quite as much, typically.

12. You CAN leave your case open to test and make sure it works first, but I'd advise against it if at all possible. The reason is you definitely don't want the possibility of something getting in your case (static electricity, a stray finger, etc) while it's running. Not that it's typically dangerous to you, but that it could mess up a fan or something... fry your components if electricity. It CAN be dangerous, but if you are careful, it won't be.

Matter of fact... do this: When you finish getting the part in, if you think you're finished, close up the case, and only then plug back in the power, and flip back on your power switch... then give it a test run.

If it doesn't work, unplug power, open case, and check your connections. If you have Windows XP or Vista, I'd imagine it would have automatically installed the drivers and such. If it's a Mac ro something, I can't help. I might could in person, but I've no experience with their hardware and installing it, though I'd imagine the new versions of OSX are like Windows in that respect....

Hopefully that'll get you started.

Just remember: 1. Don't be afraid of a computer. 2. BUT don't get cocky either - be careful. 99.99% of the time, a computer isn't dangerous, but really dumb careless moves can change that faster than you can realize it. As long as there is no power coming to the computer, you've got nothing to worry about (so long as you don't pull out the power supply, and take it apart! - don't ever do that unless you get some serious information first). The only damage you can cause is to the computer, and that isn't likely unless you are just pretty much trying to. Treat it with respect, but don't think you're goign to break it if you put a little pressure on connections - not bench press type pressure, but just like you would use to connect maybe your computer monitor at times.. you can usually tell if wires are connected by the way they feel.. many times you'll feel a mild click.

Hope that helps - you may need some coffee if you read this.

I'm loving this whole idea myself. I may seriously get started with something like this real soon.

[kjv1611]

Hmm, just noticed that the last post from Reeven on the topic was in November. Well, if you've not done this by now, and are still wanting to....

;0)

[Soultrape]

I find this even cooler:
http://www.hardwaresecrets.com/article/531
Stick that HD in, and pop it out - eSATA style! (fast enough)

[Lunchbox]

It's available in buy.com before. I saw the link, can't find it now. It's not eSATA but USB 2.0. It's still cool. Just like any etenral USB enclsoure, there's a level of data/protocol conversion.

SATA -> USB -> SATA

[rkhanso]

For those of us w/o a SATA interface on the motherboard.....

If I add a SATA PCI card to my computer and connect the enclosure to that, will I still get the fast speed/no conversion since the SATA drive has to connect to the SATA card, which is connected to the PCI bus of the PC to the motherboard? Does that make sense?

If the speed will not be at the maximum/similar to those of you with SATA on-board (1.5GB/s, 3GB/s) I may just go for the USB enclosure.

[Lunchbox]

PCI bus has a capacity but I don't remember that on top of my head. I would say with the PCI SATA card, you will get the max or close to max speed just like connecting directly to onboard SATA bus. After all, the bottleneck is still the harddrive itself.

The USB docking station will be very handy for sure

http://www.amazon.com/dp/B0012Z3MKW?smid=ATVPDKIKX0DER&tag=dealtime-ce-feed-20&linkCode=asn

[skaforhire]

Hi all,

I went to the original link and the item was deactivated, I was wondering if there was a newer similar version that anyone knows about. I would like to get this item, or something similar. The ones I seem to be able to find all seem to have trays for each HD. I would like something that plugs into the mother board or else I would get that last product mentioned. (though it does remind me of an old nintendo, lol!)

any help is appreciated.

[Lunchbox]

I updated the links on the first post.

[DXT Bowhunter]

I built the computer that I am using with the old Seagate 100GB EIDE hard drive. It is the only hard drive in this machine. My MB does have SATA support. Could I just keep OS running on IDE drive and then install this SATA removable system for storage? Or should I change to SATA drives for both?

Curtis

[Lunchbox]

If you have the money, get all SATA since it will improve the overall system performance (don't have to deal with DMA channel settings). Otherwise, keep the EIDE drive as boot drive is fine.

[Soultrape]

It's available in buy.com before. I saw the link, can't find it now. It's not eSATA but USB 2.0. It's still cool. Just like any etenral USB enclsoure, there's a level of data/protocol conversion.

SATA -> USB -> SATA

There's an eSATA version - I've seen it with my own eyes :-) It's actually branded under a different company...

I'll find a link

But it's cool - much easier for archiving if you ask me...

[kjv1611]

DXT Bowhunter,

If I were you, and I were looking to cut costs anywhere, I would do as you said: keep the system running on the IDE drive. Then, if/when you are wanting to upgrade later, you can do that. The interface will not make a big enough system performance difference during usage to make it worth while upgrading. However, if the hard drive is more than possibly 1, or definitely 2 years old, you could see a decent performance increase, mainly because the hard drive technology has been changing so rapidly for the past few years.

[DXT Bowhunter]

Thanks KJV

As you know the 100gb hard drive is filling up rather quickly with video. I like the idea of the removable drive so that I dont have to reconfigure the entire system.

While I was reading the reviews on the units Taky suggested I found this one.
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817990001&Tpk=KINGWIN%2bKF-1000-BK

[Lunchbox]

that's really cheap. only $12. go for it!

[Tarrant1701]

You may have to check your computer's motherboard instructions. If you can find the BIOS settings, some motherboards have an option to treat a SATA connection as eSATA. Once designated as eSATA, then WinXP will treat it as a removeable drive.

[Lunchbox]

I still couldn't figure out how it actually done. I have the same machine dual boot XP and Vista. In XP, I can go to Safely Remove Hardware to stop the drive. In Vista, I need to go to Device Manager and choose Uninstall the drive. I can still do hot swapping no problem in both cases.

Another machine that I have is running Media Center Edition OS. I have to go to Device Manager to uninstall the harddrive too. So I really don't know what's the rule. It seems like it's OS based. But if it's based on BIOS settings, my dual boot computer behaves differently.

Anyway, it doesn't matter if you can treat the HDD as removable or not. You can always go to Device Manager and uninstall the drive before swapping it out. I have been doing this for a couple of years. No problem at all.

[Tarrant1701]

Taky, I'm curious ... why do you use a removeable HDD system? Do you keep the original video footage on tape? If so, you would have a duplicate captured to those removeable hard drives, right?

I guess this system allows you to save your edits and project file to the HDD too. Just wondering if there are other advantages you see?

[Lunchbox]

I do a lot of weddings. Since I use 3 camcorders now, I will have about 14 to 20 tapes from job. It also takes 2 to 4 months to get them done. I need lots of storage together with backups. When I finished a job, I will record the edited verion back to tape for archiving package. I don't archive raw footage. Usually re-use the tape once too.

Now with authoring BluRay, I will also encode BluRay H.264 or MPEG and save them to HDD in the future to sell the clients.

There're of course lots of advantage. I have wedding jobs a year ago. I still need the clients to give me stuff to finish up the DVD. In the mean time, I will just put them to the removable drive and take if off line. Plug in another 500GB for another projects.

[Dennis Vogel]

I use removable disks because I don't edit video every time I sit down at my computer. I only fire them up when I need them. It saves wear and tear on the drives, wastes less energy and keeps my PC and edit suite (love that term!) cooler.

Good luck.

Dennis

[Lunchbox]

OH, you have to be careful on static... it was a cold morning I woke up. The first thing I do is to plug in a hdd... I fired it.

[DrDave]

Thanks for the tip Taky, I have a dozen of these firewire enclosure boxes and this looks much easier--no wal warts, etc.
I'll run HDTach on it when I get it in but I imagine it is just like plugging in an extra sata to the MB.
Maybe they should rename HDTach HDTaky.

[Soultrape]

http://www.geekstuff4u.com/product_info.php?manufacturers_id=&products_id=630

Here's that dock that has eSATA
eSATA is great!

I have a nice 500gb connected on eSATA - and I couldn't be happier (USB 2.0 isn't even in the same playground)

[Lunchbox]

That's great! Here's the correct product link

http://www.geekstuff4u.com/product_info.php?manufacturers_id=&products_id=650

This one is even better, it has everything

http://www.geekstuff4u.com/product_info.php?manufacturers_id=&products_id=691

http://www.geekstuff4u.com/images/HDD_Rack_Super_Combo_02.jpg

[Tarrant1701]

Interesting points Dennis. While I agree with your points at face value, a closer look suggest:

1. saving wear and tear on drives
- most modern day drives have a mean time before failure (MTBF) in the 100,000+ hr range
- example Seagate's 7200.11 line has a MTBF of 750,000 hrs
- this = 31250 days = 85.5 yrs if kept running 24/7
- this of course is theoretical, and real-life does get in the way of theory
- still, have to weight risks of adding/removing the drives vs keeping them stationary
- also, most wear and tear on hard drives occurs during spin-up, spin-down ... once they are spinning, mometum helps keep things going

2. wastes less energy
- true, having something off uses less energy than on
- but average operating power usage of the 7200.11 is 12 watts
- this is significantly less than your incandescent bulb, halogen, and similar to fluorescents
- for comparison the HV20 uses 4.5 watts with LCD panel on
- the CA-570 uses 17 watts

In the long run, you'd probably save more energy by not using a screensaver and directly having the computer turn off the display after xxx number of minutes. :)

[Dennis Vogel]

I leave the lights off, too, sometimes. It all adds up. Plus, you forgot the heat aspect.

If I need to go away from my PC for more than a few minutes I turn off the monitor.

Good luck.

Dennis

[Lunchbox]

heat kills many of my hdd many times...

If it ever happens to you, your hdd is acting weird and making strange noise. Put it in a zip lock bag and keep it in the fridge for a few hours. Hook it back to the system and copy everything out ASAP.

[Tarrant1701]

For those who have trouble with removing eSATA drives in Windows, take a look at this small utility:

http://mysite.verizon.net/kaakoon/hotswap/index_enu.htm#download

It may help ease the safe removal of said drives prior to swapping them out.

[Lunchbox]

It looks good but it only works for certain chipset.

Anyway, you can always go to device manager, locate the disk drive and do "uninstall". It will do the same as safely remove.

[Soultrape]

heat kills many of my hdd many times...

If it ever happens to you, your hdd is acting weird and making strange noise. Put it in a zip lock bag and keep it in the fridge for a few hours. Hook it back to the system and copy everything out ASAP.

Actually this turned out to be (it seems) - an Urban Legend.

Google released a research paper (http://www.pcworld.com/article/id,129420/article.html) that basically dismisses temperature as a clear failure reason.

The statistics are from their data centers - they have over 60,000 CPUs under that machine (one HD per system?) - anyways - a quote:

After studying five years worth of monitoring statistics from Google's massive data centers, researchers say they could find no consistent pattern linking failure rates to high temperatures or high utilization levels. Temperature, they write, is often called the most important environmental factor affecting disk drive reliability.

[Tarrant1701]

Well let's be clear about the details before calling it an "Urban Legend." In the Google article you cite, they state:

"Temperatures exceeding 100 degrees Fahrenheit may not be damaging to disk drives ... they found negative effects from high temperature only for the higher end of the temperature range (104 degrees Fahrenheit or more) and even at those temperatures the negative effects were only observed for drives at least 3 years old."

Now, looking at manufacturer's spec sheets:
Seagate 7200.11 - Operating temp 0-60 C (0 - 140 F)
WD Caviar SE16 - Operating temp 0-60 C (0 - 140 F)
Hitachi 7K1000 - Operating temp 5-60 C (41- 140 F)

Despite those operating temp ranges, "AVTECH Software says the "optimal" temperature range to maintain data center reliability is between 68 and 75 degrees Fahrenheit."

So what do I infer from this?
1. Data centers probably don't have to maintain arctic temperatures in order to reduce HDD failure rates.

2. There is likely an increase in failure rate with increasing temperature, but the threshold temperature for this to occur is still unclear.

3. HDD have many components, including a printed circuit board with solid-state chips, a spindle motor, drive heads, etc. Some of these may be more susceptible to heat than others. For instance, it's generally accepted that heat is deleterious to solid-state devices (that's why there are heatsinks and fans on CPUs, GPUs and some northbridge/southbridge chipsets on your motherboard).

My own system has the following temps on average (during a long NLE rendering session, these values will be higher):

Motherboard - 37C (99 F)
Desktop hard drives (onboard thermal diode) - 38-42C (100 - 107 F)
Infrant ReadyNAS (with 4x 750GB drives in small, enclosed chassis) - 35-45C (95-113 F)

I'm more worried about the 4 hard drives in the NAS than I am about the ones in my desktop computer. So far, I haven't experienced a NAS HDD failure, but I've had the device for 2 years. We'll see once we hit over 3 years, as per the Google experience.

[DrDave]

Ordered two Knigwins from NewEgg at the groovy sale price. Heard nothing for days, then suddenly they are out of stock and the price has gone up. Support claimed there was a portal problem. Judges? Bzzzzzzt.
BTW, I had a hard drive fail from heat once. The molex wires were reversed. Gosh that was a horrible smell.

[Lunchbox]

I have a spare one for sale. Whoever interested one, please PM me :)

[booggerg]

I do a lot of weddings. Since I use 3 camcorders now, I will have about 14 to 20 tapes from job. It also takes 2 to 4 months to get them done. I need lots of storage together with backups. When I finished a job, I will record the edited verion back to tape for archiving package. I don't archive raw footage. Usually re-use the tape once too.

Now with authoring BluRay, I will also encode BluRay H.264 or MPEG and save them to HDD in the future to sell the clients.

There're of course lots of advantage. I have wedding jobs a year ago. I still need the clients to give me stuff to finish up the DVD. In the mean time, I will just put them to the removable drive and take if off line. Plug in another 500GB for another projects.

Taky, no doubt your workflow makes it easy to organize and silo the multiple projects, but since you're dedicating one HD to each project, there is no place for a RAID type of backup. You mentioned you archive the completed video to miniDV tape, but what is your backup strategy while a project is on-going?

[Lunchbox]

Let me see...

I have a 4x500GB RAID-0 as my working video drive. Source .mpeg/m2t files are stored there. A second copy is stored in the removable hdd as backup. When a project is done, all the edited video files will be archived to another removable drive together with the project files, clip art, titles etc. Also, the DVD image or BluRay image if the client wants to order more in the future. I will then clean up the working RAID drive get ready for the next project.

Master tapes are reused once. Once a tape is used twice, I will use them to record the edited video as archive purpose. I know I knonw, tapes are cheap. But I'm talking about 15 to 20 tapes per job. $4 per tape. Once the project done, nobody asked for the raw tape. So I'm just going to reuse them.

[booggerg]

Thanks. How often do you backup project files to the removable HDD? I'm assuming most of your projects doesn't exceed the size of the removable HDD?

[Lunchbox]

I only use the removable drive to backup all source vidoe files. And when the project is done, all project files will be archived to another removable hdd.

Then, I have a separate setup for a Media Center PC that I use to record TV shows, encoding station, and Backup server. I run a program called Second Copy that will backup my working project files (excludinng all source video files since they are already backup in the removable hdd) to every few hours.

http://www.hv20.com/showthread.php?t=901

It proves to be very useful. There are times the project files get corrupted or I save over a bad edit. I can always find the backup version that was done few hours ago. At least I won't loose everything.

[Rich]

1. saving wear and tear on drives
- most modern day drives have a mean time before failure (MTBF) in the 100,000+ hr range
- example Seagate's 7200.11 line has a MTBF of 750,000 hrs
- this = 31250 days = 85.5 yrs if kept running 24/7- this of course is theoretical, and real-life does get in the way of theory



From: http://www.pcguide.com/ref/hdd/perf/qual/specMTBF-c.html

Usually, the "analysis" goes like this: "Gee, a year contains 8,766 hours. That means my 500,000 MTBF drive should last 57 years."

To be interpreted properly, the MTBF figure is intended to be used in conjunction with the useful service life of the drive, the typical amount of time before the drive enters the period where failures due to component wear-out increase. MTBF only applies to the aggregate analysis of large numbers of drives; it says nothing about a particular unit. If the MTBF of a model is 500,000 hours and the service life is five years, this means that a drive of that type is supposed to last for five years, and that of a large group of drives operating within this timeframe, on average they will accumulate 500,000 of total run time (amongst all the drives) before the first failure of any drive. Or, you can think of it this way: if you used one of these drives and replaced it every five years with another identical one, in theory it should last 57 years before failing, on average

In a past life I briefly did acceptance testing and at times attempted to verify adherence to Mil-Specs. Then there is Murphy's law....



Rich

[voodeux]

I happen to be a fan of using external HDD storage for a couple of reasons:
1. Easier to swap/upgrade without opening the PC.
2. Less heat buildup internally, which keeps the system happier (and quieter).

I think the passively cooled units like this one http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817121032
will serve for most people who need a simple archive solution. I have one connected via eSata. Its FAST, silent, and fairly stylish. If you are using it daily, or for longer periods of time, then I would consider an actively cooled model, although they cost a bit more and add some noise.

Make sure you have a long enough eSata cable, they tend to provide short ones with the external cases.

[anthonyt]

if only we could just plug the hv20 to the hdd and start recording ... brr

[gatti]

For those Mac users out there... (myself included) Unless you have a MacPro or MacBookPro, you are limited to Firewire 400, Firewire 800 (07-08 iMacs only), and USB 2.0 speeds. The MacPro can provide eSATA support via a PCI card and a MacBookPro can provide eSATA support via a ExpressCard/34 card. Both will offer 3Gb/s speed and a minimum of 2 accessible ports.

If you don't have a MacPro or MacBookPro, connect the drive via FireWire 400 or Firewire 800 over USB 2.0 for sustained speed and better computer performance. (Remember, USB 2.0 connectivity uses the processor which will lengthen rendering time in iMovie, FCP, and FCE.)

[Mitosh]

If you really want storage, this is a great solution using those same trays in a preconfigured external enclosure. But it is a little more complicated as you are working with RAID.

http://www.cooldrives.com/8saiihoduenw.html

[Blain]

The hot-swap drive racks are the greatest thing since sliced bread.

[korngold]

I just found this one on google: Vantec Nexstar Dock

USB 2.0 AND eSATA for under $40 at most retailers. eWiz has it fairly cheap, but I've never heard of them before. Has anyone ordered from "ewiz"?

Here's the link:
Vantec Nextar Dock at eWiz (http://www.ewiz.com/detail.php?p=CA-D100SU)

According to the Vantec site, they are going to be coming out with another model that adds 1394a connectivity soon.

EDIT: eWiz also has the Thermaltake USB + eSATA model, which I couldn't find on Amazon anymore:
Thermaltake BlacX with eSATA (http://www.ewiz.com/detail.php?name=EN-ST0005U#)

[Lunchbox]

Read this about the Vantec's model.

http://www.hv20.com/showthread.php?t=11810

[korngold]

Read this about the Vantec's model.

http://www.hv20.com/showthread.php?t=11810

Yikes.

I'm glad I waited before purchasing. I think I will stick to the Thermaltake version, and try to go easy on it...

[zephyrnoid]

CAn someone update this thread to reflect the best package for a removable HD system for a MAC or does one not exist?

[Lunchbox]

The same system should work in both Mac and PC

[white_2kgt]

I finally got around to swapping out my 4 drive Venus T4U (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817332008) USB2.0/IDE enclosure for a SATA backplane. I went with the Athena 3 bay (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817119403) model.

http://c1.neweggimages.com/NeweggImage/productimage/17-119-403-05.jpg

Also pickedup one of the Kingwin single drive model to put in the HTPC so I can quickly view full HD video's on the big screen right after editing, haven't installed that yet though. I got so sick of how slow the USB connection was and couldn't take it anymore, even for backups. You guys know how big these movie files are, and SATA drives are cheap enough (120 for 750 gigs, I can handle that!)

[zephyrnoid]

Thanks for the input. A quick search of the Athena Backplane yielded less than stellar feedback. So which drives did you install? Any usability feedback you wish to share?

[BillBoss]

Whats a good firewire solution for an imac since I can't use E-sata?

[white_2kgt]

Thanks for the input. A quick search of the Athena Backplane yielded less than stellar feedback. So which drives did you install? Any usability feedback you wish to share?

I have several, a few segate 320's, couple WD500's and 1 WD 750. My only issue w/ it is you really have to screw the HD into the cage or else you can't get the drive out. So I just keep a little screwdriver on the desk and put 2 screws in each drive. I'm not sure what people have to complain about. Drive goes in, drive shows up a few seconds later, not rocket science. I guess if they have some cheap case they might complain about the noise of the fan, but I have a big thermaltake case with a front door. I don't hear the fan until I pull out a drive. It has separate power buttons for each drive and activity lights. No key lock, but like I said, I have a door that I can lock if I really cared. I was impressed that it came with those sata cables with the clips on them, even though I bought some at the same time from newegg. The Kingwin didn't come with those clipped cables. I'm more impressed with the construction and use of the Athena than I am of the Kingwin.

[Swefsvr]

you need to have RAID. I can not explain how important it is to have real time backup.
http://www.amazon.com/RAIDSTREAM-TWIN-Trayless-Multi-stream-Uncompressed/dp/B001CNCLVU/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=electronics&qid=1218149537&sr=8-1
or
http://www.g-raid.com/Products/G-RAID2.cfm
or
http://www.caldigit.com/FireWireVR.asp

But I like RAIDstream twin since it is trayless, diy and I don't have to spend extra on the enclosure later on.

[Lunchbox]

RAID is for performance and/or data redundacy in case of harddrive failure. It does not serve the purpose of backup.

[Swefsvr]

Tks for pointing it out.
I was trying to say RAID 1 protection.

[Dr. Benway]

Icy Dock, make sure you feckers ship internationally. As a non-U.S. user of such tech it sucks paying through the nose for shipping, or worse still, encountering vendor after vendor who won't/can't ship outside the States because of vague 'security reasons'.

My association with Al Qaeda is minimal at best; do we not have the right to store our hours of training videos and pirated Bollywood movies in safety?

[Lunchbox]

This item looks interesting

http://ak.buy.com/db_assets/prod_lrg_images/225/209842225.jpg

http://www.amazon.com/Cavalry-Storage-EN-CAHDD2B-ZB-2-Bay-Black/dp/B001HPDGFI

[nolonemo]

If you are building with an eye to the future, and your PC supports it, eSATA will give your throughput that's over twice as fast as USB 2.

[Shadow_7]

http://www.cooldrives.com/fodrsaiiandu.html

Do these things work with dvd burners and such? I'm looking at expanding and would like a remote possibility for burning DVDs. In additon to increased storage capacities. Since my laptop only does CDs, which is a bit shy in data capacity these days.

[Lunchbox]

Those are for 3.5" SATA harddrive. If you need an enclosure for DVD burner, you should search for 5.25" external enclosure.

[buffoon75]

how about this one?
http://www.amazon.com/D-Link-DNS-323-Network-Storage-Enclosure/dp/B000GK8LVE/ref=reg_hu-wl_mrai-recs

[ESTEBEVERDE]

RAID is for performance and/or data redundacy in case of harddrive failure. It does not serve the purpose of backup.

Of course it can.

What are you talking about!?!?!?


RAID-5

RAID-6

[Mitosh]

Of course it can.

What are you talking about!?!?!?


RAID-5

RAID-6

You need to do a little more reading about RAID, RAID 5 and RAID 6 is not a backup solution, as he said it is for redundancy and drive failure, not for backups.

[BarteS]

To head him, and others, in the right direction, first a little basics:

RAID-0 isn't redundant, it divides files into parts and puts each succeeding part on a different drive and therefore offers faster data access (called striping)
RAID-1 and higer are redundant systems. If one drive fails the others are able to reproduce the failed one. (RAID-3 and higher also use striping)
Last but far from least is the combination of RAID systems, such as RAID1+0 or RAID0+1, they offer striping and redundancy. The difference from RAID-5 and higher is the combination is less CPU demanding but requires more harddrives.

Thing with RAID-1 and up is the fact you drives are mirrored. But what if more than one drive fails? Your data is gone! Of course the same applies to 'real-backups', but the more 'real' a backup is, the further away it is from the other drives:
-Offsite backup, most secure way
-External harddrive not permanently connected, disaster (fire, water, ..), secure
-Extra harddrive not in RAID setup, shortcircuit, pretty secure
-RAID-1, RAID controller fails, bit secure
-Just single disc, insecure way, one drive fails, everything is gone
-Just RAID-0, most insecure way, one drive of X fails, everything is gone
The backup strategies on the bottom suffer might fail due to the reason as stated, or due to all of the reasons of higher, better strategies.

Generally I recommend to at least use external harddrives to backup very important data (like final projects).
Personally I'm using a full blown backup/redundantserver (which is also used as a mailserver and media/dataserver) from my important data and I'm editing on a machine with a RAID1+0 setup.
On my work I've installed four types of defense (data on a RAID 1 setup, backupserver, two external harddrives that are swapped each day of which one is put in a car, offsite backup)

[Hulk]

How about backing up on a bluray disc? Anyone doing that?

[CycleWriter]

How about backing up on a bluray disc? Anyone doing that?

I am and it works nicely. 25gb per disc means I can backup a lot more at one time. Somewhat slow, but I do all my backing up while I sleep.

[Mitosh]

I am and it works nicely. 25gb per disc means I can backup a lot more at one time. Somewhat slow, but I do all my backing up while I sleep.

Slow, but they are also expensive, BluRay media is still premium priced.

[JayV30]

FYI - There is a rebate going on for these at zipzoomfly:

THERMALTAKE ST0005U Blac X Plastic 2.5in & 3.5in SATA HDD Docking Station Retail (http://www.zipzoomfly.com/jsp/ProductDetail.jsp?ProductCode=10008418)

Comes to $19.99 after the $15 mail in rebate. Expires 4/21

Just a heads up to anyone considering something like this! I'm thinking about picking one up even though I don't really need it right now.

[Lunchbox]

oh woow.. that is the USB + eSATA version. Good deal. I just bought one wiht 2% Live Cash back too. Thanks

[1]

I had the one in Lunchbox's OP, and although it performed well, I found it to be too bulky for travel.

I use the Icy Dock now;
at $48, it's not cheap, but is LIGHTWEIGHT (without the green metal part which isn't needed), and works VERY well. USB and eSata:

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817198029
http://hv20.com/showthread.php?t=17631&highlight=icy+dock

[MithrilFox]

I purchased an Owltech swappable HDD housing + cartridge in one unit.

http://owltech.co.jp/products/mobile/mobile-1.html

It's pretty much the cheapest I could find, and uses mostly plastic rather than the stronger aluminum. If I yank on it too rough too many times it would probably break one of the mechanisms, though it'd still work.

I like it, it works well enough for me :). I swap between a drive running Windows Vista/7, and a drive running Ubuntu 8.10.

[Lunchbox]

Those mobile racks are not new products. The only bad thing is you have to buy different tray for each harddrive. The system I posted in the first post is a tray-less system. No need to buy tray for each harddrive.

[white_2kgt]

OK, once again I made a change in my storage.

I am now using this,
http://images17.newegg.com/is/image/newegg/16-111-048-S01?$S640W$ (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16816111048)
SANS DIGITAL TowerRAID TR4M-B (Click Image for newegg link)

as my primary storage setup. It holds 4 SATA drives and you install a PCIX card that has 2 eSATA ports on the back, and connect the TowerRAID to the card with ONE eSATA cable, yes, 1 cable for 4 HD's. You can setup the tower raid in JOB or RAID0/1/1+0/5. I put in 4 1.5TB WD's and set it up for RAID5. This thing won't win any speed contest in RAID5 but it's plenty fast for video capture and now I don't have to go hunting through a stack of HD's for enough free space for a day of capturing.

The Athena back-plane has now assumed the duty of housing backup Harddrives.

-chad

[Lunchbox]

That looks like a good system. I just bought a PCI-e x4 RAID card

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16816115057

I was researching something like yours before. Please come back share with us in a few weeks/months how this unit works. I might consider getting one =)

[white_2kgt]

Well been running for almost a month now and so far so good. One of the LED's went out yesterday, drives still working fine, so not sure if the light just came loose or what. I'll probably pull it apart and mess w/ it a bit, if not I'll send it back and get a new one. Only complaint so far is it's slow but I am running it in RAID5 so that's probably where the slow down came from.

So far I've been ripping/endoding DVD's and BluRay's almost every night on it, so I've been kicking it pretty hard and it's taken it.

That HighPoint card's expensive!

-chad

[KingDucky]

Why do they have External HDD's if this option is cheaper?:hv20-smilie51:

[Lunchbox]

If you need to travel, it will be a lot easier to travel with external HDD. Also, most computer users won't use that much harddrive like us video people. A 500GB ext drive could last a very long time for regular computer user backup purpose.

[argonaut]

Fof laptop, I mount this to an 5.25 SATA external enclosure. Then connect it through USB to the computer.
Problem is USB 2 is too slow.
Get a express card esata adaptor.

I second that image Lunchbox.
I got this last month. Very easy to use and install. Perfect for backups and even for edit in fast external drives.
http://images17.newegg.com/is/image/newegg/17-707-170-S01?$S640$

[ilsils]

It's three years later. Is this "Trayless Removable Harddrive System" still considered the best choice for simple video storage?

[Lunchbox]

I'm still using these trayless removable system. Its great for dual boot purpose too.

I can swap out different drive storing different video project. Its great. However, eSATA ports are available in almost all desktops and some laptop,using docks is also my choice. Those docks with both ESATA and USB provides best flexibility and portability. There are also some with USB 3.0 interface.

Best part? bare SATA drives are dirt cheap these days.

[gatti]

For video storage, yes. It's by far the best cost effective and speedy approach available. Just stick with an eSata interface if you want the best speed. If you're looking for the fastest editing setup, a Raid 5 system or drobo will give you the best performance, reliability, and expandability for at least 5-7 years.

[Lunchbox]

Actually, RAID 5 doesn't give you the performance. It provides the best redundancy for protection of harddrive failure compare to cost of hardware. RAID 5 is very slow indeed because of all the XOR calculations. Fast hardware RAID-5 card usually cost from a few hundred to thousands. For those using your CPU to do calculations, it is slow.

DROBO is even worst because of it's proprietary RAID format. Classic DROBO provides USB 2.0 connection as it's slow enough. DROBO PRO using i-SCSI connector. It is supposed to be fast, but I used it for video editing. It lag badly when 2 streams of video are playing simultaneously.

If you want performance only, RAID 0 is the way to go. If you want performance with redundancy, then it's RAID 0+1. But 50% of storage space will be used as redundancy protection.

I setup a 4 x 1TB drive RAID-0 array. It's freaking fast. Then I have a seperate machine running as backup server to backup crucial files from the RAID-0 every few hours. If any of the harddrive failed in the RAID-0, I might lose only a little bit of work. Not catastrophic.