Was anything revealed at CES that now rivals HV20/HV30?

[skulpt]

Hey guys and gals. (Mods please move if in the wrong area).

I'm relatively new to the camcorder scene, and have narrowed my choices for my first video camera down to the HV20 because it just seems to offer the best in terms of video quality. I've heard that the HV30 probably isn't worth the extra money considering the tiny upgrades, and the other Canons in this price range might have image quality issues due to compression, and have issues with editing because of the non standardized format. Sooo...

Have any of the other companies announced HD camcorders in this price range at CES that you think could rival the HV20? Or do you still think that the HV20/30 really has no competition in this price range?

Brian

[Chicken Warrior]

I haven't heard anything, although I've mostly been following CES as a gamer for work.

[Koala]

Remember that all the 2008 future models are not presented at the CES 2008.

The Sony HDR-HC3 was launched 2 or 3 months after the CES 2006, as does the Canon HV20 after the CES 2007.

The JVC GZ-HD3 was launched some months ago (before the CES, to catch the Christmas sales); we can imagine that JVC will propose a replacement for the GZ-HD7 in some months (but it's pure speculation....).
But in the game of 'wait for the next model', we're not even sure that the 'next model' will be better than the actual ones --whatever is the Manufacturer--! In the past, Panasonic had proposed a GS500 worth than the famous GS400, the Sony HDR-HC3 was worth than the HDR-HC1 (except in low ligth), now Canon proposes a HV30 keeping quite all the negative points of the HV20...

Koala

[novulet]

The Casio EXILIM Pro EX-F1 might prove interesting: it's a SLR-like photo-camera (so the manual control is way better than the HV20/30) which can shoot HD at 60 fps (not progressive though) and lower res at up to 1200 fps. The imager is slightly larger too and you can put on an external mic. It does seem to be AVCHD though.

[Eugenia Loli-Queru]

The new *consumer* high-end panasonic shoots full HD and 24p.

[Lunchbox]

woow! really? which one? do you have a link or model number? I would like to take a look. Thanks

[HuskyD]

This might be it

http://videomaker.com/community/blogs/videonews/2008/01/1893-panasonic-releases-new-hd-camcorders-at-ces/

[Ian-T]

The new *consumer* high-end panasonic shoots full HD and 24p.

And has a focus ring...it seems with 3CCD's

I believe it's a repackaged SD5 with 24P.

[Eugenia Loli-Queru]

It is a nice camera, and I would consider it, but the 3CCD really destroy the taste for me because it means no background blur at their tiny size. The Canon CMOS cameras have more bg blur because the sensor is bigger.

[Hector]

I haven't heard anything, although I've mostly been following CES as a gamer for work.

Where do you work?

[MovieBlog]

This is slightly off-topic, I know, so I apologize in advance. Since you mentioned blurring the background, I wanted to know how one achieves that exactly. I've got a photographer friend that has a DSLR and a big lens and he sets it a certain way and it gives a small depth of focus. The resulting picture has the subject in focus and the rest blurred. I really like the look and would love to know how you do it on the HV20.

I had assumed 3CCDs were an advantage, not a liability, so your answer intrigued me.

[Ian-T]

It is a nice camera, and I would consider it, but the 3CCD really destroy the taste for me because it means no background blur at their tiny size. The Canon CMOS cameras have more bg blur because the sensor is bigger.

True. Not to mention that it's low light capabilities might suffer also. But I'm real eager to see what its PQ lloks like.

[Ian-T]

This is slightly off-topic, I know, so I apologize in advance. Since you mentioned blurring the background, I wanted to know how one achieves that exactly. I've got a photographer friend that has a DSLR and a big lens and he sets it a certain way and it gives a small depth of focus. The resulting picture has the subject in focus and the rest blurred. I really like the look and would love to know how you do it on the HV20.

I had assumed 3CCDs were an advantage, not a liability, so your answer intrigued me.
Actually CCD's have nothing to do with it. It's the size of the imager that counts. CCD's and CMOS are just two different ways of collecting light. Most DSLRs use CMOS technology. That DSLR your friend has more than likely uses CMOS chips (though I know there are CCDs in DSLRs). The CCD on the panasonic, even though there are three of them, are very small. 1CMOS with RGB colors = 3CCD colors (don't let the number of CMOS vs CCD's fool you...they are different). Both have their advantages and disadvantages. The CMOS imager on the HV20 is bigger..even though there is one...which means better shallow depth of field.

[koolpenguin89]

Taky, heres another link to the new panasonics http://www.camcorderinfo.com/content/Panasonic-Unveils-Two-New-High-Definition-Camcorders-HDC-SD9-and-HDC-HS9-34030.htm

They looked perfect in every aspect...at first. There are reports that they are without headphone or mic jacks, which make them more or less unusable for me...unless i were to use the zoom h2 or something similair...hmm

[skulpt]

I've got a DSLR as well, and can appreciate the CMOS sensor. So who else in this range is offering a nice larger CMOS sensor? I guess that's the big draw on the HV20 then? You have more creative freedom and can play around more with depth of field? Besides that and the more compressed format, it seems like this new Panasonic camera is pretty good. I still will most likely opt for the HV20 though. I love playing with shallower DoF, and am a real nut when it comes to pure image, and not compression artifacts.

Brian

[MovieBlog]

Sorry to be naive, but how does one achieve a shallow depth of focus?

[skulpt]

I'm new on these forums, and know wayyy less than most people here, but as I understand it, video cameras in this range capture video in a couple of ways. The HV20 uses a large CMOS sensor, and with it's larger size (I don't know why that helps it do so), it has a narrower focus range. The other cameras in this range use CCDs instead of a CMOS sensor, which are smaller. For some reason again, these kinds of sensors and with their smaller size makes the focus range (or depth of field) a lot broader, so more is in focus at one time.

Can anyone confirm or deny this? Am I right on this? LOL

Brian




Sorry to be naive, but how does one achieve a shallow depth of focus?

[Lunchbox]

Digital Juice has an episode to explain all these.

http://www.digitaljuice.com/djtv/segment_detail.asp?sid=157&sortby=&page=7&kwid=0&show=all_videos

It should clear the confusion. It has nothing to do with size of CCD.

Wider aperture = shallow DOF
Longer focal length = shallow DOF

[skulpt]

If all things are equal, Wider ap = shallow DoF, and LFC = shallow DoF. But there is something about CCD vs CMOS that effects DoF focus. I was so stunned by the difference when I bought my first DSLR, I did a comparison. 1 shot at 50mm on a digicam at it's 50mm at F2.8, and then my CMOS 300D at 50mm at F2.8.



http://i.pbase.com/u43/gdguide/upload/27858480.c3000Z_2_8.jpg

http://i.pbase.com/u43/gdguide/upload/27858494.300d_2_8.jpg


I'm not claiming to know why, but for some reason there is something different with CMOS compared to CCD. I always thought it was the size, but maybe I'm wrong. But something seems to be different. My only explanation is that CCD size dictates the lens size, which in turn effects the range of DoF.

Brian

[novulet]

The difference is the size really. I doubt it has anything to do with CCD vs CMOS. Your C3000 has a 1/1.8 inch (7.2mm x 5.3mm) CCD (5 crop factor) whereas your 300D has a 22.7mm x 15.1 CMOS (1.6 crop factor).

[Halsu]

It should clear the confusion. It has nothing to do with size of CCD.

No. I guess they didn't mention sensor size simply because that's really not an adjustment the user can easily make ;-)

All three affect DOF:

Wider aperture = shallow DOF
Longer focal length for the same framing = shallow DOF
Bigger imager size = shallow DOF

It doesn't matter if the imager is CCD, CMOS, film, ground glass or whatever, only size matters.

That's why a lot of people use so called 35mm adapters, those have a big ground glass where the image is projected instead of directly to the CMOS or CCD. Lots more DOF shallowness.

[Halsu]

No. I guess they didn't mention sensor size simply because that's really not an adjustment the user can easily make ;-)

Looked briefly through that video and it had some inaccuracies.

The camera's price has more to do with sensor size than pixel count. Big sensor means longer focal length for the same framing, which in turn means physically bigger, more complex and more expensive lenses.

The advantage with fast lenses only exists when shooting wide open, they may get to f1.4 where HV20 goes to f2.0 and so on. But in all other situations, there's no difference. You CAN shoot at f4.0 on both, if you catch my drift.

The main difference in DOF characteristics between professional 2/3" cameras and small 1/3" (or smaller) cameras like HV20 is not that the professional lenses are faster. It does matter, but the sensor size is more important. Big sensor means longer focal length for the same framing - shallower DOF.

[scsz]

There are reports that they are without headphone or mic jacks, which make them more or less unusable for me...unless i were to use the zoom h2 or something similair...hmm

They do not have a mic jack, so they are a no go for me as well.

[thewinelake]

Nobody seems to have mentioned Canon's own range of SD-based cameras which could rival the HV20/30. Is that because they don't think they will?! :hv20-smilie03:

I'm assuming that the lack of tape transport on the Vixia might mean that the camcorder feels more solid. I briefly had an HV20 at the same time as a Panasonic SD1 and one of the minor reasons I decided to keep the latter was because it seemed better built (i.e. likely to last a bit longer). My brother now has an SD5. I'd like to take the opportunity to compare DOF at some point.

With all this miniaturisation of the consumer cams, I'm wondering if some low-end prosumers might be on the horizon that are equivalent to things like the Panasonic GS400/500 in terms of size, but offer pro-style larger sensors (narrow DOF + good in low light) and pro-style manual controls (eg. focussing, decent zoom, decent LCD/viewfinder). Or maybe pro's like to have a bulky camera?

[icarusi]

Nobody seems to have mentioned Canon's own range of SD-based cameras which could rival the HV20/30. Is that because they don't think they will?! :hv20-smilie03:

The improved picture resolution of HDV over SD is such that I'm seriously considering revisiting all the locations aI shot SD and reshoot in HDV. I was always disappointed how SD failed to do the locations justice. HDV on a large LCD goes a long way to redressing that. First time I can recall where consumer resolution is in advance of most broadcast res.

[Alsone]

There's a review of the SD-9 here:

http://www.simplydv.co.uk/Reviews/panasonic_hdc-sd9.html

Conclusion is much the same image quality wise as the Sd5.

[Ivan Fuentes]

The improved picture resolution of HDV over SD is such that I'm seriously considering revisiting all the locations aI shot SD and reshoot in HDV.

I think he meant "SD" = "Secure Digital", not "Standard Definition"...

[redman042]

On the question of how to best achieve background blur, there are two ways:

First open the aperture as much as possible. The more light you let in, the better.

Second, maximize zoom. If you are taking pictures or video of a person, step back and use as much telephoto as you can. On my Canon Digital Rebel SLR, I attach my 75-300mm zoom lens and step way back.

I don't own the HV20 (yet) but imagine there are ways to achieve this.