HV30 announced (and other new developments in the world of [moving] picture taking) [Archive]

novulet

2008 January 7th, 05:52

On camcorder.about.com they expect that the Canon HV30 will be announced, it will have 3CCDs, a 10x optical zoom, and the new soft-light LCD feature (whatever that may be.) Seems probable, no pictures yet and no words on any other features.

http://camcorders.about.com/od/canoncamcorder1/a/Canon2008.htm

I doubt that they'd put in some good manual controls because it would cannibalize on their higher end models, but if they would... damn, I would have to start looking at selling my HV20 after I just got it!

ForwardLooker

2008 January 7th, 07:17

http://www.canon-europe.com/For_Home/Product_Finder/Camcorders/High_Definition_HD/HV30/index.asp

http://www.canon-europe.com/Images/260w_HV30_tcm13-489340.jpg

novulet

2008 January 7th, 07:27

Wow, it seems the only major difference is the colour.

Rikki

2008 January 7th, 07:31

LCD has moar pixels and its black - that it? A year on?

novulet

2008 January 7th, 08:03

Well at least they didn't use the year to dumb it down ;)

Dodgy Nick

2008 January 7th, 08:18

One difference between the 'announcements' on the two sites:

On the camcorders website they said the HV30 will have 3 CCDs. On Canon's european website they claim it will still have the CMOS sensor. I'm inclined to believe Canon's website rather than some other website. So not much difference after all. We'll have to wait another year and see what the HV40 brings!

Ian-T

2008 January 7th, 08:25

That's strange...but the first site suggested the cam would have 3CCD's ...but the Canon site shows it's the CMOS.

It looks like the same basic cam but black (which might be a good selling point for some). I'm really interested in finding out the bit rate for the upcoming flash cams.

Edit: Dang..... Spoiler....you beat me to the punch

Dodgy Nick

2008 January 7th, 08:30

I'm more interested in the HF10 to be honest. No moving parts means less chance for things to go wrong and zero noise from the camera. The only difference between the HF10 and the HF100 that I can pick up is that the HF10 has a mic input. I think bringing out the HV30 as it is was a mistake. Why would you buy that, if you can get the HV20 for (presumably) cheaper? They should have at least put some more effort into it to make the deal sweeter, like lanc control or something else.

Worley

2008 January 7th, 08:47

The HV30 has a VIVID LCD screen, the HV20 does not.
The HV30 has version 28 connection kit, but the HV20 has version 24.
And the HV30 allows for longer record times with the new long life battery:

HDV: Approx 4hrs
DV: Approx 4hrs 50mins

I don't see why the HV20 could not benefit from this battery too.

So, who's going to upgrade?

Mal

2008 January 7th, 08:59

If those really ARE the only changes (???), they should have named it HV20¼.

:)

Dodgy Nick

2008 January 7th, 09:06

If those really ARE the only changes (???), they should have named it HV20¼.

:)

or even HV20 rev 1 (black)

I'm definitely not upgrading this year, I have a lot more mileage on this baby until I can look at whatever the XHA1's successor will be in 2009 or whenever.

Ian-T

2008 January 7th, 09:36

I wonder what the selling price would be? This is essentially the same exact camera as the HV20. Why would one want to buy this at a much higher price (assuming it's at the same retail price as the HV20'S original). Anyways...I'm also looking at the HF10...yeah...no moving parts. The image has to at least be as good as the HV20's for me to consider it. It is 1920x1080 and does 24p and 30p. But I'm still leary of AVCHD.

Edit: Ok I found out it will start at $999.

PTravel

2008 January 7th, 10:05

camcorderinfo.com has what appears to be more reliable information:

http://images.camcorderinfo.com/images/upload/Image/news/2008/CES%202008/Canon/Canon_HV30/Canon_HV30_prov_350.jpg

http://images.camcorderinfo.com/images/upload/Image/news/2008/CES%202008/Canon/Canon_HV30/Canon_HV30_van3Q_350.jpg

"Today at CES, Canon announced the Vixia HV30 ($999 MSRP), the replacement for the popular HV20. The new HDV camcorder features an all-black design, a multi-angle Vivid LCD screen, and the ability to capture in 30P mode. Canon now offers a total of five camcorders in their newly christened “Vixia” high definition line-up.

“With the exception of those features, the product is the same as the HV20."

. . .

"The HV30’s LCD screen has been upgraded to resist solarizing, and the camcorder supports the Canon BP-2L24H expanded battery pack, which the HV20 does not."

http://www.camcorderinfo.com/content/Move-Over-HV20-Here-Comes-the-Canon-HV30-34020.htm

And "Vixia"? Where do they come up with these names?

Oceanzen

2008 January 7th, 10:16

Whoops - I didn't realise there was already a thread.

What will the PAL version have - certainly not 30p?

Any links to PAL HV30 news?

Ivan Fuentes

2008 January 7th, 10:39

I wonder if you could "get" that HV30 firmware :hv20-smilie68:

Sean Michael

2008 January 7th, 10:46

I also wonder if HV30 firmware includes 24p pulldown flags?

bluegrass

2008 January 7th, 11:02

Better zoom toggle, black, better LCD, & 30p are certainly not compelling reasons for HV20 owners to upgrade. Canon is dancing to get extend the sales of an HV20 like camera.

The future of video capture will lie in capture to memory. I can see 16 gig flash memory in the 5$ to 10$ range around the corner and that should finish off the tape & HD capture forever. If we can purchase 20 hours of video capture for $100 and it be removable and slipped into a computer for processing why would any other storage on board the camera be wanted. Than the next step will be to push the resolution envelope.

From what I've seen in extra features such as on the 5th season of 24, the major difference between the 20's capablility and half million dollar hollywood cams is the cost of lenses. It was pointed out their cameras have $200,000 lenses in them.

RicanJoe

2008 January 7th, 11:03

"True 25p shooting"
"analog to digital" :hv20-smilie70:

Oceanzen

2008 January 7th, 11:18

PAL specs are here
http://www.canon.co.uk/for_home/product_finder/camcorders/high_definition_hd/hv30/index.asp

Lunchbox

2008 January 7th, 11:20

DAMN IT! the WD-H43 wide angle lens will look funny on the black body.

Lucasberg

2008 January 7th, 11:30

If 30P is better for fast action/slowmotion I might consider buying it.

Any opinions on 30P for action Slow-mo ?

Lunchbox

2008 January 7th, 11:33

Better slow mo than 24p but inferior to 60i.

I shoot 30F in XH-A1 as it has the sort of film look. 24P is too jittering in motion and horizontal panning.

It's good news for me since I can shoot using both XH-A1 and HV30 in 30F and 30P mode.

Frank

2008 January 7th, 11:56

"The HV30’s LCD screen has been upgraded to resist solarizing, and the camcorder supports the Canon BP-2L24H expanded battery pack, which the HV20 does not."

But...I am using a BP-2L24H with my HV20. Is it going to blow up?

bryant

2008 January 7th, 12:28

So... who is up for dumping the HV30 firmware and seeing if it works on the HV20?

RicanJoe

2008 January 7th, 12:30

So... who is up for dumping the HV30 firmware and seeing if it works on the HV20?

That my friend, will take someone with alot of courage and or a big budget. :hv20-smilie77:

bluegrass

2008 January 7th, 13:42

The new HF10 announced has a lot more appeal to me than the HV30 as for as a camera to backup my HV20. With the HF10 at least were talking moving into the future and not just a small improvement on what we now have.

I can predict the next big question coming soon to this forum. Should I purchase an HV20 now or wait till the HV30 or other new Canons from the VIXIA family reach the stores?

1. today you can pick up an HV20 for under $700.
2. the HV30 will be $1000 with possible discounts of a $100 maybe for basically the same camera.
3. the HF10 will use new storage technology that will eleminate built in audio noise but probably about the same as the HV30 otherwise. It will sell for about $1100 in the dual flash version which I would easily spend the extra money for over the HF100.

Frankly I am almost at a decision to purchase a backup or second camera to work with my existing HV20 and I think there is no doubt in my mind I would choose to spend the two to three hundred dollars more to advance my technology to the HF10, than to stay with the existing HV20. It will be interesting to watch how the prices on the HV20s hold and how the new VIXIA Canon line of cameras are accepted. In either case it looks like all of our peripheral investments in our HV20s are preserved in the VIXIA line. Time will reveal what the reality is.

Hector

2008 January 7th, 13:44

I want new battery support!

manuel_d

2008 January 7th, 13:54

Maybe I'm lucky this time.
Always when I buy a piece of electronics, it takes some weeks for the respective company to release a slightly altered version of the same product with improved specs.
I hope there isn't a too big difference in price in June/July (when I hope to buy a camera) between HV20 and HV30 in Japan.
I like the black color.

Lunchbox

2008 January 7th, 13:56

I want new battery support!

Just like Frank, I'm already using the BP-2L24 high capacity battery.

http://www.hv20.com/showthread.php?t=4315

bluegrass

2008 January 7th, 14:08

I want new battery support!

If the voltage is the same for the new higher density batteries and they are the same electrical footpirnt than you already have the support. Devices only pull the amount of current they need. More current available at the same voltage will work fine.

Dodgy Nick

2008 January 7th, 14:15

The new HF10 announced has a lot more appeal to me than the HV30 as for as a camera to backup my HV20.

Bluegrass, I was sort of thinking along the same lines, but worried that the HDV compression mixed with AVCHD codec will stand out like a sore thumb when you mix the footage of the two cams together. Also, the HF10 uses a different type of battery, so you can't use the HV20's spares as spares for both. ALSO, the HF10 looks like it records with a PAR of 1 at 1920x1080, whereas the HV20 records PAR 1.333 @ 1440x1080.

Having said that, IF the HF10 does everything else as well if not better than the HV20, then THAT is the camera I hoped the HV20 would have been when it came out. I wonder how the focus control on it works, and whether we could use our wide angle adapters on it? If we can, I'd be seriously tempted to put my HV20 on e-bay, fly out to NY and buy it at half the price I would in the UK.

EDIT: I just saw that the HF10 has a 37mm thread, so we can't use our lenses on it. We'll need to buy a WD-H37C as a wide angle lens. They know how to make money those guys at Canon!

bluegrass

2008 January 7th, 14:53

Spoiler. You just spoiled my hopes. Guess it wouldn't be good for two camera shoots if you can't mix the formats in your editor.

We need give things a little time to see how all the specs bear out on this new Caon line of camcorders. In the meantime, I'll be happy shooting way into 2008 with my HV20.

Lets see how things play out in the next couple months.

threadhanger

2008 January 7th, 15:58

Is HV20.com in need of a new name when all these new cameras are welcomed onto the forum?

Eugenia Loli-Queru

2008 January 7th, 15:59

Dodgy Nick

2008 January 7th, 16:07

That seals it. If it's not good enough for Loli-Queru, it's not good enough for me!

Btw Eugenia, what's a Σελήνη??? Is that Klingon for something?

Eugenia Loli-Queru

2008 January 7th, 16:09

Selene means "moon". :)

BTW, did you notice that the HV30 does not mention a miniSD slot, while HV20's page does?

Dodgy Nick

2008 January 7th, 16:19

Selene means "moon". :)

BTW, did you notice that the HV30 does not mention a miniSD slot, while HV20's page does?

On this page:
http://www.canon-europe.com/For_Home/Product_Finder/Camcorders/High_Definition_HD/HV30/index.asp?specs=1
it does mention:
"Secure Digital Card YES (MiniSD)"

Eugenia Loli-Queru

2008 January 7th, 16:35

Dodgy Nick

2008 January 7th, 16:40

I am officially pissed off at Canon.

Haha, great blog post. I think you pretty much summed up everyone here's thoughts on the new range. I do however feel that you held back a little on that post. You should have told us how you really feel.

Mal

2008 January 7th, 16:45

Well, I can understand why someone would think the HV30 should be a bigger jump from the HV20 than it is; but I recall other offerings of Canon and Sony, and Panasonic doing pretty much the same:
Was there REALLY that much difference between the ZR-700 to the ZR-800 or whatever?

I bet these companies have a set amount of cams that they see is an exhausted production run. 300000? 500000? Whatever the number is, I bet they just make a new cam after a while that is about the same, with some minor alterations.
Would I have liked to see different stuff in a HV30? Sure I would, but it's only 9 or 10 months since I got the HV20....in a way I'm happy Canon did NOT come out with a HV30 that entices me to upgrade already! :)

Oh, and RED mini? Pffff....that'll be mid-2009 at the earliest. I just hope they don't take even more resources away from the already thin-staffed RED ONE team, and actually make that camera work the way it ought to!

sonu2c

2008 January 7th, 16:46

whats the difference between flash(hf100) and dual flash(hf10)?

Eugenia Loli-Queru

2008 January 7th, 16:47

>RED mini? Pffff....that'll be mid-2009 at the earliest.

I can wait. The HV20 won't die on me that fast.

>You should have told us how you really feel.

arrrraaaagggggaaaaaaaaaaaraaah.......... :)

The HV30 is an anomaly. Canon got greedy and created a new model instead of releasing a new firmware.

Dodgy Nick

2008 January 7th, 16:51

whats the difference between flash(hf100) and dual flash(hf10)?

1) the word 'dual'
2) a zero
3) mic input

ForwardLooker

2008 January 7th, 17:02

There is no way I am upgrading my gear. If Canon can't get it right, I think I will wait for the RED pocket camera if it's in the region of $3000.

Hey Eugenia, where can i find info on this??

thanks

Lou van Wijhe

2008 January 7th, 17:03

Sorry, I've got no time studying the HV30 as I'm busy filming with the HV20. :hv20-smilie58:

Lou

Eugenia Loli-Queru

2008 January 7th, 17:06

>Hey Eugenia, where can i find info on this??

There is not much known about the RED pocket camera. Their CEO made a forum post to confirm the rumors that the camera will be announced in April, at NAB. It will be a small camera, but they stressed out that it's going to be professional camera for filmmakers, not a toy and not the kind of semi-pro cameras you get today which are mostly good for news reporters rather than movies. I expect it to be in the range of $2500 to $5000. The only real question is if they will have some support for PC editing by then, so we can convert the RED codec to something that Vegas can read. So far, only Final Cut Studio supports the RED codec you see.

Mal

2008 January 7th, 17:06

...where can i find info on this??

There's NO real info on it at all.

The RED personnel put out a teaser on their forum, as a means of diverting attention away from someone complaining about poor quality issues on a delivered RED ONE.

All the RED announcement was, was the name of the RED MINI, which is Gloria, or Sophie, or Gwendolyn or whatever; I couldn't give a toss to be honest.
It was a bone for angry forum members, so they can go and speculate and salivate on what the specs might or ought to be.

No announcement of any value whatsoever, and no size/price/technical specs are made or even hinted...

Eugenia Loli-Queru

2008 January 7th, 17:13

>I couldn't give a toss to be honest.

I do. I am interested in a camera that's made FOR movie-makers, not for Joe Reporter filming the biggest cookie in Brooklyn for the local TV news. None of the semi-pro cameras from Canon or Sony do it for me because their sensor is so small, they were not made with movies in mind. Only the HVX200 comes close, but it's still not as good for the purpose either. That's where the RED MINI comes to fill that void. Unless Canon gets its act together that is.

Anyways, to stay on topic, the HV30 is a joke regardless. :)

bluegrass

2008 January 7th, 17:19

1) the word 'dual'
2) a zero
3) mic input

spoiler - you left out the removal of a zero in the name on the dual.

although sono2c might like the real answer which is the 100 has no built in flash to capture to, where the 10 does and than gives you the option of adding a memory chip in addition to the builit in 16 gig flash memory.

Mal

2008 January 7th, 17:20

Hey Eugenia, you quoted me out of context...in a sort of clever way of course! :-)

My "I couldn't give a toss" really was preceeded with "All the RED announcement was". It was the announcement I couldn't give a toss about, not the RED MINI itself.

I like the RED ONE and hold a reservation like others here too, and I'll probably be keen to look at the RED MINI also, once specs and price are out.

It's these so called 'announcements' that are ridiculous to me, not the product.

Lunchbox

2008 January 7th, 17:21

Sorry to be a party pooper. If HV30 is out available now in B&H, I will order one in a heart beat just for the 30P recording mode. I wish there're more features (LANC, better looking body like the HG10).

I think for those who doesn't own a HV20, buying HV30 might not be bad. For those who already own HV20, no need to upgrade.

I plan to get a second HV20, so I will go for HV30 :)

Eugenia Loli-Queru

2008 January 7th, 17:21

Dodgy Nick

2008 January 7th, 17:25

spoiler - you left out the removal of a zero in the name on the dual.

See point number 2 in my post.

although sono2c might like the real answer which is the 100 has no built in flash to capture to, where the 10 does and than gives you the option of adding a memory chip in addition to the builit in 16 gig flash memory.

See point number 1 in my post. Granted, maybe I was a little too concise, so you've expanded on it nicely, and for that, I thank you. I'm actually quite looking forward to play with the HF10. I hope I don't like it. Can't afford to spend more money on this hobby at this minute!

Mal

2008 January 7th, 17:27

No worries, Eugenia, just thought I'd clear that up. :)

HV30's 30p pulldown removal: on the other hand, we also don't know if Canon finally put in proper flags in the HV30 for 24p and 30p? Right? Any info on that?

Lunchbox

2008 January 7th, 17:27

Eugenia Loli-Queru

2008 January 7th, 17:29

I am not saying you do for sure, but given the fact that HDV doesn't have such provisions, Canon might have invented something weird again to stay compatible like in the PF24 case. Besides, 1080/60i can give you a perfect 1080/30p with a good de-interlacer, the only thing that's different is the lower shutter speeds.

koolpenguin89

2008 January 7th, 17:30

taky, what did u mean by the hv30 at b+h?

bluegrass

2008 January 7th, 17:32

The new AVCHD line of cameras use a 1/3.2 sensor, which means LESS BACKGROUND BLUR than HV20/HV30's 1/2.7. I would personally not go near them just because of that. And their filter thread is down to 37mm too.

than how about a 16 gig flash drive that is capable of emulating a mindv cassette with 50meg transfer rate we can shove in our 20s. but maybe it will have to go into the minidv slot like we use to plug our portable DVDs into our car cassette player.

you mean 6mm is a big deal?

are you saying avchd should be killed before it even got started?

i thought you only got background blur with a 35mm adaptor.

Dodgy Nick

2008 January 7th, 17:33

taky, what did u mean by the hv30 at b+h?

I think Taky was speaking hypothetically. like usual. :hv20-smilie81:

Mal

2008 January 7th, 17:34

Well, like Eugenia said: how is that 30p wrapped in the 60i? Is a simple matter, or will there be NLEs which have difficulties recognizing it properly?

If the HV30 adds better 24p usability, and simple 30p, it will be a big plus.

nolonemo

2008 January 7th, 17:35

Well, look on the bright side. At least Canon didn't go backwards, like Panasonic did when they followed the GS400 with the GS500....

Lunchbox

2008 January 7th, 17:35

I think Taky was speaking hypothetically. like usual. :hv20-smilie81:

Oh yeah.. MIA for a few months now come back for personal attack!

hehe

Lunchbox

2008 January 7th, 17:37

taky, what did u mean by the hv30 at b+h?

I mean IF it's available at B&H, I will buy one from them.

ForwardLooker

2008 January 7th, 17:40

There's NO real info on it at all.
The RED personnel put out a teaser on their forum, as a means of diverting attention away from someone complaining about poor quality issues on a delivered RED ONE.

what poor quality issues did they refer too?? was it just 1 individual case?

Mal

2008 January 7th, 17:46

what poor quality issues did they refer too?? was it just 1 individual case?

Not sure if you're a reservation holder of RED or not, but anyone higher than, say 700, should be fine.

It's new company with a new and very complicated product.
Since they don't have the time nor funds nor capacity to properly test the cam, I'd say the first few hundred cams' owners are BETA testers. Things can go wrong, and they did. Not all features are enabled. Once they get enabled, they will probably go wrong too, until they get sorted out.
The particular cam I was referring to suffered from VERY POOR Quality Control. RED swiftly came back and blamed the Christmas holiday staff, that "pushed the product out too fast, and it won't happen again" (paraphrasing).

From about mid-year, and from about serial number 700 things should be SWEET!
:hv20-smilie45:

Ian-T

2008 January 7th, 17:53

Well, look on the bright side. At least Canon didn't go backwards, like Panasonic did when they followed the GS400 with the GS500....

This is what I was speculating all alog. But you are corect...at least they did not go backwards.

koolpenguin89

2008 January 7th, 17:59

thanks taky, your phrasing threw me off earlier

ESTEBEVERDE

2008 January 7th, 18:02

Eugenia Loli-Queru

2008 January 7th, 18:03

Thing is, I want a small-ish movie-look camera, and no adapters (which will mean a better included lens and a BIG sensor). I need the camera to be "made" for that specific indie filmmaking market rather than having myself trying to tweak it later...

ESTEBEVERDE

2008 January 7th, 18:08

Cool...

The XHA1 is much bigger.

I find it comfortable but I wonder if a great cam in between HV20 and XHA1 size would fit the bill?

Lunchbox

2008 January 7th, 18:09

thanks taky, your phrasing threw me off earlier

What do you mean by that?

Lunchbox

2008 January 7th, 18:14

I find it comfortable but I wonder if a great cam in between HV20 and XHA1 size would fit the bill?

Yeah "HV30 + WA lens adapter + lens hood + videoMic + video lights" will :)

JoeInBH

2008 January 7th, 18:17

Lunchbox

2008 January 7th, 18:18

I don't know how good it looks of the silver Canon WD-H43 WA lens on a black HV30.

Dodgy Nick

2008 January 7th, 18:20

I don't know how good it looks of the silver Canon WD-H43 WA lens on a black HV30.

you can always spraypant your lens! I remember when the HV20 came out some crazy kid said he was going to spray his black. I bet he's kicking himself now if he did it.

Ian-T

2008 January 7th, 18:23

I just got an e-mail from Canon announcing the new line of camcorders. Like others here, first thing I did was compare the new features of the HV30 with my HV20. I agree that its not a huge improvement - but I don't understand why that should tick-off HV20 owners. We've got a great camera that it's hard for Canon to improve upon. 30p is the only real difference I noticed, but its certainly not worth upgrading. If I was in the market today, I'd probably even go with the HV20 because of the price. I'm glad that it has the same look and accessory compatibility - a major change would have devalued our HV20's.
You make a good point there Joe. When it does come time to trade or sell my HV20 it's re-sell-ability would be on-par with the HV30. 30p is not a big deal for me. i think this might be the end of the line for the HV series personally. Future efforts will be on AVCHD or other new compression technology.

Lunchbox

2008 January 7th, 18:26

you can always spraypant your lens! I remember when the HV20 came out some crazy kid said he was going to spray his black. I bet he's kicking himself now if he did it.

woow you do have quality post

hehehe

Eugenia Loli-Queru

2008 January 7th, 18:26

>but I don't understand why that should tick-off HV20 owners

Because I want to buy a new one, and there is nothing on the market that I like for the purpose that I want it. I need a consumer-grade amateur indie filmmaker's camera. I explain here my needs: http://eugenia.gnomefiles.org/2007/10/03/what-i-really-want-part-ii/
The HV20 comes close, and I needed an improvement. Instead, I got nothing.

Mal

2008 January 7th, 18:31

Canon's Winter/Spring 2008 full line catalgue:
http://www.usa.canon.com/app/pdf/camcorder/video_full_line_brochure.pdf

(No HV20 anymore....)

http://hv20.info/yopu/canon-pdf1.jpg

http://hv20.info/yopu/canon-pdf2.jpg

Stu

2008 January 7th, 18:44

Hi, I'm a noob, but I'm thinking of getting a HV20/HV30/HF10 :hv20-smilie15:

One thing I noticed about the new HF10 and HF100 is that they lack a viewfinder.

Would this be a major consideration for you guys seeing how you use your HV20s, or do most users work using the LCD screen anyway?

Would it noticably affect the battery life, having the LCD screen on all the time?

I assume the improved LCD screen was necessary because you might also be shooting in bright dayight without a viewfinder.

Thanks

ESTEBEVERDE

2008 January 7th, 18:47

I'd go HV20.

threadhanger

2008 January 7th, 18:48

Stu

2008 January 7th, 18:56

Thanks, I hadn't seen the Hoodmans (Hoodmen?) before.

I'm thinking HV20 will be just fine for me right now. I'm sure MiniDV will be around for a while yet!

icarusi

2008 January 7th, 19:09

Using the viewfinder on the HV20 is like trying to drive a car by looking through a keyhole. Thus I always use the LCD. If it wasn't there I wouldn't miss it. The LCD does use more battery power than just using the viewfinder, but it's not a big deal. Looks like the new cameras have more powerful batteries anyways.

I've *always* used the viewfinder. I predate LCDs. I predate camcorders. My first VHS was a 2-pack, and Standard 8 before that. Now I wear glasses I can adjust the veiwfinder so I can use it naked-eyed. I need glasses for the LCD and don't like them. Also 3 point stabilising 2 hands and 1 cheek. LCDs are good for funny angles and getting in-frame yourself.

The HV30 viewfinder *looks* like the same poor ergonomic HV20 version, although it does work OK when the hit/miss diopter setting is properly set.

I won't be upgrading as I'm on a 3-5year cycle for tech stuff. I'd be looking for an upgrade to the motion/data processing on pan shots and a better focus checking system. Viewfinder/LCD alone isn't good enough for HD. A steerable PIP 2x and 4x magnifier would be useful.

BARSENAL

2008 January 7th, 19:35

Do any of you think an HV30 would be worthwhile for somebody who prefers 30p? Euginea, you said that 60i with good deinterlacing should look perfect, but I have read that deinterlacing 60i to 30p can lead to loss of 25% vertical resolution on static images, and up to 50% on moving images. From your experience, would you say this is the case?

Personally, I prefer to work with 30p over 24p and 60i. I have been using CineForm to deinterlace as I import my footage into HDLink for PP CS3. I'm not sure what method CineForm uses. Does anyone know? Any opinions out there on how CineForm deinterlacing compares to other deinterlacers? Any recommendations?

I don't really want to spend the money to upgrade to an HV30, but if the 30p was enough of an improvement over HV20 60i>30p, I'd consider it.

Eugenia Loli-Queru

2008 January 7th, 19:40

If the de-interlacer is not good, yes, it can lead to loss of resolution. I don't know about Cineform's de-interlacer.

As for the 30p in the HV30, if it's also in a 60i stream like PF24 is, then there is no known utility to "clean up" the stream so far to give you true 30p.

Daan Pol

2008 January 7th, 19:53

I am officially pissed off at Canon. Dumbed down AVCHD cameras regarding their CMOS sensor size and filter thread, and the HV30 is actually a joke. I had to blog about it and let my feelings out: http://eugenia.gnomefiles.org/2008/01/07/canon-you-screwed-up/

There is no way I am upgrading my gear. If Canon can't get it right, I think I will wait for the RED pocket camera if it's in the region of $3000.

Hah Eugenia! Look at it from the bright side! Now everybody with a HV20 DOESN'T have to upgrade see? That means our HV20's will still be 'modern'. I always feel so pissed when companies release new hardware weeks after I bought something cutting edge (look at LCD screens for instance).

So yes I am glad o that I do not have the need to upgrade this year, on the other hand I am sad that the HV30 isn't what I hoped it to be.

By the way, I see a lot of people having difficulty with the 24p in the NTSC models. In europe our PAL version has 25p native out of camera, no postprocessing is needed to get progressive. And if you need 24, just slowdown the material so you avoid resampling :) (my trick).

Mal

2008 January 7th, 19:58

Supported Playback Modes:
1080/60i, 1080/24p, 1080/30F, 1080/24F, 1080/30p

What's 24F and 30F again?

Eugenia Loli-Queru

2008 January 7th, 20:02

>Hah Eugenia! Look at it from the bright side! Now everybody with a HV20 DOESN'T have to upgrade see?

If you read all my comments here though, you would know that I do want to upgrade. I just can't find a camera that satisfies me. I am a difficult to satisfy woman. ;-)

koolpenguin89

2008 January 7th, 20:34

24f and 30f are the alternative frame rates on the xha1. some say that 24f looks more like film than 24p, but thats just opinion

Camera_man_carl

2008 January 7th, 20:46

Is HV20.com in need of a new name when all these new cameras are welcomed onto the forum?

well www.hv30.com is already taken...lol

nathan118

2008 January 7th, 20:46

I've been waiting for this day for a few months now. I've got a baby coming in March, so I decided to wait until now to decide which HD cam to pick up. At the least the price of the HV20 has dropped a great deal, and could even go lower.

The HF10/100 both have a "1920x1080" recording logo in the canon brochure. Are people still of the mind that the avchd compression negates any boost in resolution over hdv? I notice the HG10 doesn't have that logo, which is odd since it's also avchd. My knowledge of the avchd cams is even less than my hv20 knowledge though. :)

Camera_man_carl

2008 January 7th, 20:51

I was planning on getting another HV20...I wonder how long supply's will last?..guess I could get the new HV30..$699.00 is better than $999.00

Hector

2008 January 7th, 21:01

At first I was a little ticked that the new one came out when I just bought my HV20 in December but then I thought about it. The HV30 will cost $999... and I paid $750 for both my HV20 and Rode Videomic... so I got a great deal and I'm no longer "angry." - :)

Lunchbox

2008 January 7th, 21:11

Hector, are you a easily satisfied woman?

hehee

Lunchbox

2008 January 7th, 21:13

Supported Playback Modes:
1080/60i, 1080/24p, 1080/30F, 1080/24F, 1080/30p

What's 24F and 30F again?

In my XH-A1 provides 24F and 30F mode. From what I understand, XH-A1's interlaced sensor can mimic the prograssive (or Canon called it the Frame mode) output. The trade off is some vertical resolution to build that progressive output. I am not technical enough to understand how it is actually done. That's the reason why it is 24F/30F instead of 24P/30P in the A1 cam.

koolpenguin89

2008 January 7th, 21:18

ya, taky just gave a much better explanation than i did. Couldn't that make the HV30 the perfect capture cam for the A1? or can the 24f/30f footage on the A1 be captured from any HDV cam, since its wrapped in the 60i wrapper as well? hmm, any thoughts taky?

Lunchbox

2008 January 7th, 21:20

There might be a wrapper but there shoudln't be any pulldown inserted to the 30F/30P mode.

RicanJoe

2008 January 7th, 21:26

I think Taky was speaking hypothetically. like usual. :hv20-smilie81:

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/
thats what he meant, I think.

Ian-T

2008 January 7th, 21:30

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/
thats what he meant, I think.

Nothing there about an HV30 yet though.

koolpenguin89

2008 January 7th, 21:31

lol, thanks joe. no, i actually misread takys post and thought he meant that b+h had them available for preorder, so i loaded there page up, all excited, and didnt see it, so i asked him what he meant. if i had read it correctly, there wouldnt have been any problem. sorry for the confusion

koolpenguin89

2008 January 7th, 21:33

taky, what about 24f? could you capture that with any HDV camcorder, i.e. the hv10, and still do pulldown and all that? thats what im trying to get at. if not, the HV30 could help to not kill the heads on an A1. If so, than disregard everything im saying, lol

Lunchbox

2008 January 7th, 21:36

For XH-A1, the 24F mode records 24fps to the tape. Which means, there is no pulldown. After I capture it with Premiere or HDVSplit, the resulting video file is 23.936fps.

The 30F and 24F video from XH-A1 can be read by HV20. On the top of HV20's LCD screen, it shows 30F or 24F while playing back that tape.

What I will be doing is to buy HV30. Use HV30 and A1 in event shooting in 30F/30P mode. Then use my current HV20 as playback deck.

koolpenguin89

2008 January 7th, 21:41

ok, that makes sense. The HV30 will prolly look a little more professional than the HV20 during a wedding shoot, dont u think?

Lunchbox

2008 January 7th, 21:42

I would think so with the black body. I still hope it looks like one of those JVC HDD cams :)

koolpenguin89

2008 January 7th, 21:48

just slap a lens hood on it and it could be a twin with the HD7

Lunchbox

2008 January 7th, 21:50

That's how mine looks like now

http://www.hv20.com/showthread.php?t=1754

koolpenguin89

2008 January 7th, 21:57

Ian-T

2008 January 7th, 22:04

hey, you should find someone good with photoshop to give you a mock up of what your rig will look like with the HV30. Ive got a dilemma though. i was 1 paycheck away from buying the HV20. But now that i see the HV30, i dont know if i should wait :( Any thoughts?
2 me...black paint aint worth a couple of hundred dollars more than the HV20. Unless of course 30p is important to you.

lordtangent

2008 January 7th, 22:08

Mal, I see, I misunderstood, sorry. I thought you didn't care about the product. :)

Taky, if you don't own an HV20, sure, go for the HV30, but overall the product is not a huge improvement. Besides, we can't be sure that their 30p recording is without a need of pulldown removal or other weird processing that Canon did in order to be able to record on tape, and in that case there is no known utility that will perform that.

Well, as I understand it, HDV is 60i (or 50i) only, which means this "30p" is still going to be wrapped in 60i. (aka 1:1 pulldown) I've mentioned this a lot of times already and I'll mention it again. Interlace and 4:2:0 subsampling are not the best friends. You take a pretty big quality hit when you do a 4:2:0 sub-sample scheme to interlace material. It will hurt the chroma of the "30p in interlace" the same way it hurts the chroma of "24p in interlace" on the HV20. If the video was natively encoded in progressive 4:2:0 it wouldn't be as bad though. And of course live captured stuff is 4:2:2 so there would be no quality hit from the "progressive in interlace" scheme when doing live capture.

But as I said already, HDV is interlace only, so you are stuck with the 1:1 pulldown, which is going to hurt chroma resolution.

koolpenguin89

2008 January 7th, 22:18

2 me...black paint aint worth a couple of hundred dollars more than the HV20. Unless of course 30p is important to you.

I thought the same thing at first, but the look of the HV30 has really grown on me over the course of today. Camcorder info also says that it has an improved zoom toggle, which is good, because i thought that to be one of the big low points on the HV20. Theres also that possibility (fingers crossed) that pulldown flags will be incuded with the 30. i guess we'll all have to wait to find out

Lunchbox

2008 January 7th, 22:33

pulldown is the interporated frames generated to fill to 30fps for NTSC broadcast. For 30p footage, there is no pulldown inserted.

Lunchbox

2008 January 7th, 22:56

Well, as I understand it, HDV is 60i (or 50i) only, which means this "30p" is still going to be wrapped in 60i. (aka 1:1 pulldown)
...
But as I said already, HDV is interlace only, so you are stuck with the 1:1 pulldown, which is going to hurt chroma resolution.

HDV is not necessary interlace only. Just check it from Wikipedia,

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HDV#Specifications

All these modes are part of HDV specifications

720/60p, 720/30p, 720/50p, 720/25p, 720/24p, 1080/60i, 1080/50i, 1080/25p, 1080/30p, 1080/24p

Again, with the 30p frame rate is already 30fps, there is no pulldown frames inserted to the stream and not necessary to be wrapped in a 60i stream. That is already been proved working from the 30F/24F video from XH-A1.

koolpenguin89

2008 January 7th, 23:17

>Theres also that possibility (fingers crossed) that pulldown flags will be incuded with the 30.

I was referring to flags for 24p. by "30" i was referring to "HV30"
sorry for any confusion

casablanca

2008 January 7th, 23:26

In my opinion, buy your HV20 before retailers realize that most people wont' fall for the HV30's extra features and prices on the HV20's start to raise again.

Honestly, they had to release something to keep retailers happy, but they are clever enough to know that the HV20 is the best camcorder in that range by far and that nowadays its price is tooooo low ($650.00). So they had to repeat the formula to raise the price of the same product (while saving millions of dollars in not having to redesign something that is already a success). So, why fix it if it's not broken?

Remember this is intended for the consumer market segment and consumers won't wait 2 years until a new camcorder meets their specs.
Of course the HV20 lacks a lot of features the pros want, but redesigning a camera from scratch takes a lot of money and they do have camcorders for the pros. They also know that professionals are used to wait more than a year for a major upgrade. So, why bother?
They just won't canibalize their own product for less money.

I do have to admit that the black color looks nicer and more pro like. But as the moderator said, the wide angle lens will look weird on it... again, no problem, they will just paint it and charge more for it. Also, a better LCD is always welcomed. For now, I'll buy another HV20. I'll get an HV30 later in December 2008.

-EDWIN HERNANDEZ
Own 3 HV20's and want buy more.

Ivan Fuentes

2008 January 7th, 23:44

HV30 specs sound about right. It's a few upgrade for a bit more money. Plus, I would be much more disappointed if I got an HV20, and a month later I received news of a camera MUCH more powerful for the same price... that would be just disrespectful from Canon to the customer. Like when you buy somewhere and see a price drop next day. You do ask for a refund. But hey, in this case, you couldn't ask Canon some free upgrade.

It's nice to know I spent my bucks for a cam that will last some time, and not be replaced within a few months. It's nice to know they are still selling HV20's, with an update. It means I didn't buy some disposable garbage.

And, if I needed some incredible upgrade above my HV20, I would know for sure it WILL cost more, and that as I desire more and more, I WILL HAVE to pay more and more, not in direct proportion, but almost exponential. If I want more, I have to pay... If I don't have the budget, I must learn to use what I can get.

>but I don't understand why that should tick-off HV20 owners

Because I want to buy a new one, and there is nothing on the market that I like for the purpose that I want it. I need a consumer-grade amateur indie filmmaker's camera. I explain here my needs: http://eugenia.gnomefiles.org/2007/10/03/what-i-really-want-part-ii/
The HV20 comes close, and I needed an improvement. Instead, I got nothing.

I want a car as small as a Pug 106, with that Toyota engine the Lotus Elise uses, and interior styling like a nice Benz. For the price of a Kia Pop. (hope it doesn't sound rude or harsh).

I hope this hasn't been written before... I must admit I read only until page 4... again been working a lot... and again getting sleepy, sorry about that (I really need some vitamins or something).

Taynt3d

2008 January 8th, 01:12

HDV is not necessary interlace only. Just check it from Wikipedia,

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HDV#Specifications

All these modes are part of HDV specifications

720/60p, 720/30p, 720/50p, 720/25p, 720/24p, 1080/60i, 1080/50i, 1080/25p, 1080/30p, 1080/24p

Again, with the 30p frame rate is already 30fps, there is no pulldown frames inserted to the stream and not necessary to be wrapped in a 60i stream. That is already been proved working from the 30F/24F video from XH-A1.

yeah, but they are storing it as HDV on a MiniDV tape, so it HAS TO BE 60i for that, which means you need to do something to it in order to reassemble the 1080p from the two frames with 540 lines of vertical resolution. It should be way easier, but nonetheless, something has to reassemble it.

Eugenia Loli-Queru

2008 January 8th, 01:16

Lunchbox

2008 January 8th, 01:20

yeah, but they are storing it as HDV on a MiniDV tape, so it HAS TO BE 60i for that, which means you need to do something to it in order to reassemble the 1080p from the two frames with 540 lines of vertical resolution. It should be way easier, but nonetheless, something has to reassemble it.

I didn't know tape can only store interlaced video. My XH-A1 records 30F and 24F on the same miniDv tape. there is nothing else need to be done to "reassemble".

felixb

2008 January 8th, 02:23

I note that on UK and European spec sheets - the pal model makes no mention of 30p for the HV30

This is something that I have always wondered - is there an actual hardware difference between the NTSC and PAL HV20s or is it just software?

Hopefully the new HV30 will push the price of the HV20 down :) I have yet to purchase!

2Bdecided

2008 January 8th, 06:42

"True 25p shooting"
"analog to digital" :hv20-smilie70:The HV20 has those already (depending on your definition of "true"). I don't expect the HV30 is any different.

So for "PAL" countries, the HV30 is the HV20 in black with a better LCD, better zoom lever, and supplied with a larger battery.

Cheers,
David.

Daan Pol

2008 January 8th, 09:27

> I want a car as small as a Pug 106, with that Toyota engine the Lotus Elise uses, and interior styling like a nice Benz. For the price of a Kia Pop.

What I want is easily doable at $2000, because it's a prosumer camera, not a pro camera. The only thing it needs is Canon recognizing that there is a *new* artist's video market that didn't exist before (and this very forum is a proof for that), like they did when they started their consumer DSLRs. Your reply is exactly like what people were saying to other people in 2002 in photography forums of the time when they were asking for prosumer DSLRs. Guess what Canon (and others) actually did at the end. It took 2-3 years, but they eventually put their act together and they recognized that new amateur artist's market (and proof for that is the kind of pictures you can get at Flickr these days, which can rival pro photographer's pictures).

Completely true,

Just look at what RED is going to do to both the prosumer and the Pro camera market? If the small camcorder red is talking about, becomes available, all the large prosumer camera manufacturers will HAVE to get their act together. Right now Canon got the best camcorder of the year, why should they improve it even further? People will buy it anyway because it is the best! So why should Canon spend millions of dollars on new technology and build the HV30 from the ground up? No real reason there, they are going to get their sales anyway.

Just look at 3 years from now, when the RED aftershock is felt, I predict you a very golden future for us filmmakers on a budget! Canon, Panasonic, Sony, all large cam manufacterers will HAVE to compete with RED!

Unfortunatly this isn't happening this year, and yes you are very right in saying that Canon is sort of ignoring a new wave of Amateur Filmers, but hey, we are in a technological rollercoaster now :) (it is just really slow lol!).

Mal

2008 January 8th, 09:58

Well, I completely disagree with this notion that RED is a revolution and earth shatteringly changing all the big corporations' plans.

They might slightly move up their schedule, but that's about it.

Their development models are based on fairly long-term plans. To design, build, test, and release a product of theirs takes time (as even RED painstakingly found out!). They know already what they have for us in three years.
Yes, RED was pretty advanced when it was announced, but there's others that do this also, albeit at a higher price right now. Cam's such as the HV20 (which can be had for $650.00) weren't available when the RED was announced, and we are constantly experiencing new and improved technologies and camcorders, at lower prices.
That's a trend that is completely RED independent.

I will agree that RED is clever in their marketing, but this ain't no revolution.

Future good films will be made by the same people that make (or could make) good films now and in the past. Someone holding a RED cam isn't suddenly going to make a fantastic film that they couldn't of done with a HPX500 or 16mm cam (or whatever, not meant as a comparison).

Sorry, I get a bit sick of this fanatical belief that a camera - no matter how good its picture quality - is really revolutionizing anything.

Even if its the death of 35mm film (which I doubt will be the case for some decades), it's not really impacting anything.

In fact, I predict its biggest impact will be Credit Card companies' higher earnings on interest payments made by poor indy filmers who couldn't really afford the RED ONE unless on a 23.7% interest credit card.

:hv20-smilie46:

Mal

2008 January 8th, 10:09

Revolution in film/video in my view would be a simple and effective way to record and broadcast 3D.

We had stills.
We had moving pictures.
We then had sound.
And then color.

That was back in the 1930s!!!

Since then all we got was better resolution.

And if you look at a nicely preserved (or restored) film of the 40s or 50s (that's MORE than 50 years ago for crying out loud!) there's nothing we really added to the viewing pleasure....AT ALL!! (except maybe better effects, more tits, and more heads being cut off; and all those things some consider NOT to be an improvement at all).

3D would be a revolution; better resolution is just a slight improvement.

<<<end rant>>>

Rikki

2008 January 8th, 11:01

I for one am VERY happy they didnt do much with the upgrade. Mainly because last night when my girlfreind came home from work and I mentioned about the new one coming out she said she'd kick me in the balls if I thought about upgrading.

Lunchbox

2008 January 8th, 11:23

So for "PAL" countries, the HV30 is the HV20 in black with a better LCD, better zoom lever, and supplied with a larger battery.

Cheers,
David.

I think both HV20 and HV30 come with the same battery BP-2L13

VideJo

2008 January 8th, 11:41

3D would be a revolution; better resolution is just a slight improvement.
My sun does some 3D editing for the European Space Agency. Curious how it will look.
Don't ask meto upload any footage, as I would not know even how to get it into my pc.

Dodgy Nick

2008 January 8th, 12:00

Revolution in film/video in my view would be a simple and effective way to record and broadcast 3D.<<<end rant>>>

Nice rant mal, and timely too. I saw Beowulf last year and was gripped by how well the 3d was done on it. It had my mind racing on how to use 3 HV20's and some software that can formulate one 3d image from the 3 video sources. The two side cameras would have to be moved precisely by a mechanical arm as the framing on the main camera changes. Then I thought about panning and zooming and pulling focus and my head started hurting. I better stop before Taky starts attakkying the quality of this post!! :hv20-smilie81:

Mal

2008 January 8th, 12:36

LOL, I also see your post count dropped by some 108000 again! :)

JRJ Photo

2008 January 8th, 12:56

I'm a pro. I don't mind waiting for a product that meets my expectations. I also have a rule to never buy first generation Anything.

That said, I'm glad Canon decided to not fix what wasn't broken (which I suspected) and instead give an already great tool some very nice additions. I'm pleased with the HV30's new look and I'm glad the zoom cradle is larger. I can also find some use for the new 30p option.

At the end of the day I think the Canon HVx0 line will finally have a place next to my pro gear; but certainly as a toy camera. Of course in my line of work a Hasselblad is a toy camera so, it's not at all a bad thing.

Daan Pol

2008 January 8th, 13:43

Nice rant mal, and timely too. I saw Beowulf last year and was gripped by how well the 3d was done on it. It had my mind racing on how to use 3 HV20's and some software that can formulate one 3d image from the 3 video sources. The two side cameras would have to be moved precisely by a mechanical arm as the framing on the main camera changes. Then I thought about panning and zooming and pulling focus and my head started hurting. I better stop before Taky starts attakkying the quality of this post!! :hv20-smilie81:

Well 2 videocameras is enough for stereography!

Doing stereography is rather easy (getting the camera excactly in sync is the hard part), projecting it is a whole different story though. You'll need 2 beamers with n35 polaroid filters and a nice (read:expensive) silverscreen to project the images to it.

Results are Spectacular, but expensive too :(. 3D monitors aren't that hot at the moment either. I recently had to make some content for the viewpoint 42 inch 3D monitor, the output resolution was only 640x360 and there were some serious depth artefacts :(.

I am saving up for 2 beamers at the moment.

nathan118

2008 January 8th, 14:36

Something we can't tell just by specs is the build quality of the hv30. Anybody think it's possible that they've made it a more solid machine than the hv20?

koolpenguin89

2008 January 8th, 14:52

Something we can't tell just by specs is the build quality of the hv30. Anybody think it's possible that they've made it a more solid machine than the hv20?

I dont think so. If canon had redesigned the body with a new sort of material or something, the price would have been much higher than it is. Also, it would probably have been one of their big selling points, meaning we would have heard something

nolonemo

2008 January 8th, 14:54

Of course in my line of work a Hasselblad is a toy camera so, it's not at all a bad thing.

If a Hassy is a toy camera, I'd sure like to know what's a "real" camera!!!

RicanJoe

2008 January 8th, 15:32

Rikki

2008 January 8th, 15:39

I for one never felt the HV20 was a cheap camera, I thought it was ok considering the size. Felt like the XM2 I'd used before.

JRJ Photo

2008 January 8th, 15:46

If a Hassy is a toy camera, I'd sure like to know what's a "real" camera!!!

A digital one. :)

The toy I'm referring to is, of course, a Hasselblad 500 C/M which was made in the 70s (which they now offer digital backs for). Mine can handle 12 sheets of 120 film and I only ever shoot black and white, artsy personal work with it; ergo a toy camera. My other toy is a much, much cheaper Holga 120N which I use the same way, whose results are much more interesting.

The other film camera I use which is not a toy is the Canon 1V HS. It's just like the 1Ds except it uses film and is therefore way, way better. I use it for weddings and other events where the client's paying for its use.

Otherwise, I'm using one of my digital Canon SLRs.

Cheers. :)

Eugenia Loli-Queru

2008 January 8th, 16:50

>Well, I completely disagree with this notion that RED is a revolution and earth shatteringly changing all the big corporations' plans.

I disagree with this. The RED's major advantage is not the technology (although it's pretty good camera), but its price. CSI:Miami's film cameras cost $120,000. Even for cheap shows shot in Canada the cameras they use cost over $50,000. The RED at $17,000 (as a base price) is creating a digital revolution for these markets. So it is a revolution, but it's not a technology revolution per se.

Mal

2008 January 8th, 16:57

So it is a revolution, but it's not a technology revolution per se.

I understand that, but it's exactly this that I also don't agree with.
Revolution how?

CSI doesn't give a toss about a camera costing $120000. First of all they rent their cams (probably), and the overall rental cost of the camera is maybe only 1% of the total budget.
If the camera costs $17000 or $120000 makes almost zero difference, especially considering the lenses they'll be using would match the cam price of $120000 (I doubt they'd shoot with rehoused Sigma lenses).

Hey, I'm glad I can buy such a great cam, but this is not earth shattering, and my films aren't going to be any better...:hv20-smilie48:

JRJ Photo

2008 January 8th, 17:23

The reason RED is revolutionary is that it boasts the quality of a CineAlta at a price that is attainable to independent filmmakers.

This is not an argument over the quality of the filmmaker's talent or if such a filmmaker would be able to afford a high quality camera. So, that's a moot point.

The point is that RED will serve primarily as an affordable alternative to 4:4:4 (or 4:4:4:4) acquisition devices.

Mal

2008 January 8th, 19:18

...an affordable alternative to 4:4:4 (or 4:4:4:4) acquisition devices.

And that is revolutionary?
http://hv20.info/yopu/yawn2.gif

:)

JRJ Photo

2008 January 8th, 19:38

This thread is about the announcement of the HV30, not bitching about RED.

Hector

2008 January 8th, 19:41

Hector, are you a easily satisfied woman?

hehee

Not really sure what that means... oh well. :hv20-smilie162:

Sir Keith

2008 January 8th, 19:55

Finally, a black HVx0! I am so going to buy this...

icarusi

2008 January 8th, 19:59

I didn't know tape can only store interlaced video. My XH-A1 records 30F and 24F on the same miniDv tape. there is nothing else need to be done to "reassemble".

Isn't 24/30F just an in-camera line-doubler of one interlaced field, whereas 24/25/30p is adjacent lines taken from the cmos sensor at the same time but written to DV tape in field order and reassembled during the read process from tape, to make a progressive frame with a full vertical luminence resolution and double the sensitivity, as the read from cmos is at 24/25/30fps equivalent compared to 48/50/60fps for each interlaced field?

Mal

2008 January 8th, 20:08

This thread is about the announcement of the HV30, not bitching about RED.

Way to finish an argument!
:)

GSF

2008 January 8th, 20:15

hello.. do you think i should cancel my hv20 order and wait for hv30? i may have it tomorrow in my hands so... speak now or forever hold your silence :hv20-smilie51: .. the reason i think i should wait for it is the 30p.. (and a bit the black color :P :P ) but i dont want to wait 2-3 months for the camera to arrive in europe (Greece) neither pay 200-300 euros more.. i'm going to shoot some fast scenes with the cam, like soccer moves or snowboarding.. but i mostly want to buy my first camcorder and have fun with it.... so i called today and confirmed the order... but .. if someone else has something to propose, say it !! :P

p.s sorry for bad english, it makes me sound a bit stupid :hv20-smilie119:

Lunchbox

2008 January 8th, 20:22

GSF

2008 January 8th, 20:52

For high motion, shooting in 60i is much better. YOu even get beautiful slow mo too! There're 3 more months before HV30 will be out. Also the price will be high at that time. Even if you buy your HV20 today, I'm sure there will be a good HV20 second hand market either on ebay or sell it in the forum here.

ok.. thanks :) that was the kind of answer i was hoping for... the hv20 here costs 800 euros so the hv30 may cost 100-200 higher when its released... but i can't wait 3 months for no reason :) :) so ill post my first footage tomorrow i hope!!

p.s not to argue but the slow mo of hv20 isnt even comparable to sony's HC7 or HC5... even if that is for 3 seconds only.. i think its a must especially for a consumer camera.

Lunchbox

2008 January 8th, 20:54

Does HC7 or HC5 have overcranking?

GSF

2008 January 8th, 21:01

whats that?:P i think they shoot in 240fps ... but only for 3 seconds.. and then "slows it down" for playback .. im really new to all this i just read some reviews before deciding what cam to buy... i have no experience so far.
Some interesting videos can be found here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GTnLQ-j5mMg&feature=related

Lunchbox

2008 January 8th, 21:04

Yeah, that's over cranking. It shoots in a really high frame rate. When playback in regular 30fps, the slow motion looks beautiful.

OMG, that kid is hyperactive.

GlennG

2008 January 8th, 21:17

I was waiting until CES to buy my HV20. Just ordered it this morning. With a Video Magic Tripod
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/14703-REG/Cullmann_CU_2722_Magic_2_Tripod.html
and a motorized pan/tilt head.
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/64399-REG/Bescor_MP101_MP_101_Motorized_Pan_Head.html
I was going to get an ewa-marine VC-1S rain cape, but decided to get the 3 year extended warranty instead. :hv20-smilie03:
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/524230-REG/NEW_SCCC3_600_3_Year_SAGEMAX_Protection_Plan.html
I got some other neat toys to go with it too.

Thanks for everyone who gave me great advice on the accessories!

My biggest gripe with the HV30 HF10 is the smaller CMOS sensor. Forget about depth of field... that's important, but I'd be more concerned that this is going to make shooting in low light noticeably worse than it is for the HV20. As an amateur videographer I need more versatility in my camera than simply shooting in bright sunlight.

I was intrigued by the new 5.6 mp (!) Sony HDR-SR12 but the HV20 is a MUCH better value. The Sony CMOS chip is also too small.

GSF

2008 January 8th, 21:18

Yeah, that's over cranking. It shoots in a really high frame rate. When playback in regular 30fps, the slow motion looks beautiful.

OMG, that kid is hyperactive.

haha.. reminds me myself when i was younger.. one day i woke up and i couldnt walk because of similar "movements".. thank god that was only for a few days :hv20-smilie09:

Lunchbox

2008 January 8th, 21:22

My biggest gripe with the HV30 is the smaller CMOS censor. Forget about depth of field... that's important, but I'd be more concerned that this is going to make shooting in low light noticeably worse than it is for the HV20. As an amateur videographer I need more versatility in my camera than simply shooting in bright sunlight.

Where did you hear or see about the smaller CMOS sensors? I would have the same concern too!

The motorize tile/pan head seems interesting. Do you mind write us a review once you got to use it? I am interestesd in something like that too.

Thanks
Taky

GlennG

2008 January 8th, 21:32

Hey Taky,

Woops... my mistake. The HV30 will have the same sensor size as the HV20. I was mixing it up with the HF10.

Sure... I'll do a review when I get back from my vacation in a couple of weeks.

:hv20-smilie45:

wihelm

2008 January 8th, 23:30

I have been using THIS battery for about four months. Sorry.

* "2200mAh Battery + Charger f/ Canon HV20 Elura40 Elura50" from ebay (link removed) *

Mal

2008 January 9th, 06:00

For the ULTIMATE in OVERCRANKING (sorry I'm hijacking again), check out the EXILIM Pro EX-F1 (http://www.exilim.com/intl/ex_f1/features2.html)
Up to 1200fps!

Available in March.

Here's a preview:
http://www.dpreview.com/news/0801/08010601casiof1.asp

Eugenia Loli-Queru

2008 January 9th, 06:11

That camera is actually nice. If only Casio could go the extra mile and perfect its video support, it could kill every camcorder in that range. Instead of saving in the .mov format at varying 30fps (makes editing and precision difficult), they could go AVCHD at 60i, 50i, 30p, 25p and 24p at full 1080p (instead of just 1080i), plus 60p for 720p and 120fps for VGA. With the rest of the features (e.g. in-sensor stabilization, and 1/1.8th sensor size which can give a fair amount of bg blur) and manual controls and good lens this camera has, it could start a revolution of its own by the best gadget of the decade (ok, maybe behind the iPod). But Casio being Casio and not being a leader, they didn't take that extra mile. Instead we just got "something that shoots HD, takes pretty pictures fast, and looks like a DSLR".

dkim68

2008 January 9th, 06:17

Will we be able to lock exposure and shutter settings? Or will we still have to resort to the cellphone light trick?

Mal

2008 January 9th, 06:23

If only Casio could go the extra mile...

Interesting to read your thoughts on this one. I was looking forward to this cam ever since I heard about the prototype and was drooling over the 300fps at the time.
A real shame to hear about its shortcomings.
Like you said, it's Casio; so...:hv20-smilie01:

mattias

2008 January 9th, 06:56

i think 512x384 at 300fps sounds very interesting but the resolution of the higher framerates is too low even for sd video. yes, 720p at 60fps and full sd/vga at 120fps should definitely be possible as far as i can tell. that would have been great. now it's just "a little interesting".

/matt

Daan Pol

2008 January 9th, 08:07

Mal

2008 January 9th, 08:16

edit: Video of cam in action here:

I think this (http://www.exilim.com/intl/ex_f1/features2.html) might be a better link to check out the videos.

Daan Pol

2008 January 9th, 08:34

I think this (http://www.exilim.com/intl/ex_f1/features2.html) might be a better link to check out the videos.

Woa awesome Link! THanks Mal!

Mal

2008 January 9th, 08:45

Regarding the low res on the higher fps (600 and 1200); yeah, that's really low resolution, but Im actually beginning to see more potential even for that small size.
Would be perfect for certain products' advertising for web-delivery.

I think despite its shortcomings and relatively steep price it should be a big seller, nevertheless.

And lets be honest, there's no cam in this price class that comes even close to that fps!!!

Niche market? Perhaps, but the COOL factor is defintely there, and we can see stuff never thought imaginable without REALLY expensive equipment.

One thing though: I bet it will be difficult to start the cam exactly at the right time for capturing 1200fps...

Ian-T

2008 January 9th, 10:25

Well... I posted about this cam over the weekend:

http://www.hv20.com/showthread.php?t=5582&highlight=Casio

...so I'll ask this question...since it utilizes HDMI, if we were to record the RAW data, would the 1200 fps still be at a lower resolution?

Rikki

2008 January 9th, 10:45

I would think so as the HDMI data standard probably still works in 24/25/30/60 frames/chunks per second

dkim68

2008 January 9th, 15:30

Will we be able to lock exposure and shutter settings? Or will we still have to resort to the cellphone light trick?

Dust'n the Callipygous

2008 January 9th, 15:33

all i wanted was a zoom rocker and focus ring...

John Rambo

2008 January 9th, 16:35

i do not know about you fellow members. but for me the shape and color of the camera also is a major buying factor. if Canon makes a camera model like the JVC Everio GZHV7 i will buy it in a minute. we change our cell phones our cars our clothes because of the way they look not only because we need to.

i have a canon dslr and the reason why i bought it instead of the more expensive Nikons is the price and shape. to me Nikons look like 1950s slr. the canon cameras that will be in the market in the summer solved this problem but had other problems like a smaller sensor = more noise= less professional videos. also the only reason why i might buy the hv30 is arresting the hv20 buyers 300 dollars extra for a color change?and one or two options?

:hv20-smilie24:please canon i am a big fan i want the canon logo on my gear and i am ready to pay more for it listen to our needs

dkim68

2008 January 9th, 19:35

Will we be able to lock exposure and shutter settings? Or will we still have to resort to the cellphone light trick?

Ian-T

2008 January 9th, 19:39

Will we be able to lock exposure and shutter settings? Or will we still have to resort to the cellphone light trick?

All functions on each camera are the same.

ethanfox

2008 January 9th, 20:52

Not sure if it lists different info than the Euro site, but the HV30 is on the USA site now, as are the other new camcorders.

http://www.usa.canon.com/consumer/controller?act=ModelInfoAct&fcategoryid=177&modelid=16206

vj_jasper

2008 January 10th, 07:57

With a Video Magic Tripod
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/14703-REG/Cullmann_CU_2722_Magic_2_Tripod.html
and a motorized pan/tilt head.
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/64399-REG/Bescor_MP101_MP_101_Motorized_Pan_Head.html
...
I got some other neat toys to go with it too.
...

My biggest gripe with the HV30 HF10 is the smaller CMOS sensor. Forget about depth of field... that's important, but I'd be more concerned that this is going to make shooting in low light noticeably worse than it is for the HV20. As an amateur videographer I need more versatility in my camera than simply shooting in bright sunlight.

i would call myself an amateur videographer too, and am considering the HV20, HV30, and HF10.

why the HF10? cos i like the chip-based workflow, and codec issue thing doesnt bother me cos i reckon the software ppl will sort it all out v. soon. however... as you mention, there is the lowlight issue.

of course, there are a number of factors, but sensor-size is an important one for low light filming eh?

and yet, am very keen for the chip-based ease of use.

perhaps a nice film light to put on the HF10 'shoe' .. if it has one, can help to some degree.

so, can i ask, how is the motorised pan head? sounds awesome.

also, if alright to question further..
what other neat toys did you get, and do they help?

JRJ Photo

2008 January 10th, 14:24

novulet

2008 January 10th, 15:43

But Casio being Casio and not being a leader, they didn't take that extra mile. Instead we just got "something that shoots HD, takes pretty pictures fast, and looks like a DSLR".

Maybe they don't go the extra mile because they are probably* using a SONY chip? Let's see if Sony is going to do anything interesting with this thing. (although considering their latest offerings I doubt it would be much better)

* http://www.dpreview.com/news/0801/08010601casiof1.asp

icarusi

2008 January 10th, 17:34

Isn't 24/30F just an in-camera line-doubler of one interlaced field.

I was half right, it's an 'intelligent' line doubler but unless you know what principles it's using you won't know what artifacts to be aware of. Some tests on single frames report P having 25% better vertical resolution than F, which sounds good if F is all you have, but I suspect there'll be motion artifacts. OTOH you could shoot in 'i' and do your own post interpolation on a single field to synth your own F, depending on the sophistication of your deinterlacer.

vj_jasper

2008 January 10th, 21:18

I don't know what you mean by "film light". It sounds like you're talking about a flash, which wouldn't work at all.

What you should do, if you're interested in filmmaking or, whatever, is invest in a couple of tungsten lights, I would recommend a simple Lowell Pro Light kit. 2 lights, umbrellas, stands and the cords shouldn't be much more than $300 from B&H. And with it the quality of your image, no matter the size of the chip, will be much better.

thanks JR, that is great advice, cheers :)

the film light thingo was referring to an LED light connected to the HF10's shoe. so, although not as useless as a flash, it is not a very satisfactory solution at all, and your solution is much, much better .. thanks. :)

Lowell Pro Light Kit eh? sounds cool.. er, i mean, hot.. oh, i dont know the terminology. it sounds good.

the stands provide elevation, the umbrellas provide diffusion, and the tungsten lights provide... light.

being a 'vj', i have been pretty uneducated in the lighting sense until now, because in the past, have filmed video with the idea being that it would have animations worked into it and so it did not matter so much about the natural 'look'.

these days however, am starting to do music videos, and have visions of grandeur for 3 minute micro movies. graphic-novel meets filmic technique at a webcomic-sponsored party.

thanks again, and yes i have found the Lowell Pro Lighting Kit at B&H .. i wonder, would a $500 dual-channel dimmer go well with this setup? would the Tungstens be okay with a variable current (if that is what a dimmer does)?

btw, the kit, including case and umbrellas is $409, without bulbs. so, perhaps 500 complete price.

to begin with, i am very much guessing the best way would be to place the two lights 50 cm above head height, on either side of the subject, about 3 or 4 metres away, each angled on a 45 degree angle towards the subject?

i used to go out with a music video director, and she would explain to me how the lighting must never cast a shadow "below the nose", especially if the subject has a nose ring.

thanks again for your help, as you can tell i am venturing into the world of lighting with a dim solar power torch. :)

Mal

2008 January 10th, 21:36

...would a $500 dual-channel dimmer go well with this setup?

It would go well, but you get [almost] the same result from this, at $19.99...but wait there's more, buy right now and it's only $11.99:
http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=43060

Works fine with tungsten lights.

JRJ Photo

2008 January 10th, 21:40

Well, where you put the light is dependent on the mood of the scene. If you're doing an interview or a newscast then sure, 3-point lighting is where it's at. Otherwise, feel free to experiment with the light. And I wouldn't recommend dimmers as much as I would recommend simply moving the light back further from the subject.

All you need to do is watch movies with decent photography and study where they put the light. You can tell a lot by looking into someone's eyes where the light is in relation to the camera and all that.

You'll soon begin to view photography and watch motion pictures in a whole new, objective way. Then, and only then, will you fully appreciate how much I hate Transformers...and mostly Michael Bay. :D

vj_jasper

2008 January 10th, 22:05

i have been watching movies etc from the DOF perspective, heh, and that has been very informative. it is such a brilliant attention-directing tool.

so... the light in the characters' eyes shows where the lights are placed? okayy.. i will certainly try watching movies/music videos that way. another educational perspective, fantastic.

so the two 45 degree angle lights is a 3-point technique? i dno..
i hope to do a series of video interviews with animators/VJ's around the world in a few months, so i guess the mysterious "3-point lighting" is a technique that will help, as you say it is good for interviews and newscasts.

and for the music videos/micro movies... "otherwise feel free to experiment"... sure! that sounds great. how much can one experiment with two lights tho? probably a lot, just requires some thinking and practical experience. perhaps Gels or "Opal Glass" would go well with that. how about colour inserts for the umbrellas?

hmmm... Transformers... Michael Bay... nothing to do with the animated series of toys .. not sure..

i am cool with moving tungsten lights backwards, although maybe they would not be cool with that if they are very hot.

Mal's suggestion of the very cheap item, if it works well with tungsten lights, could be very very handy for a beginner like me.. why? cos if i buy two lights and they are the same "temperature" all the time, well i would not know any better.. and i really like adjusting the lights at my gfriend's place, dimmers all around the house, to get the perfect mood, depending on the time of night. so, in terms of Fun Factor, dimmers or a Router Speed Control, would be really good. might not be so professional.. hey i am a VJ so that's fine.. for now.. :)

it's great how they say "Router not included" .. heh.. oh really? for $11.99, thought i would get a Router aswell?

RHKFilm

2008 January 11th, 00:19

Hi All,

I spoke with the Canon camera reps at CES today and they looked dumbfounded when I asked them about 24p pulldown flags on the HV30. I got the feeling we are waaaay below their radar.

-RK

threadhanger

2008 January 11th, 01:31

http://youtube.com/watch?v=8jQd25N9XNY

JRJ Photo

2008 January 11th, 16:03

the light in the characters' eyes shows where the lights are placed?

Though continuous light and strobe light are two different things, where you place those lights (and the illumination/shadows they create) is the same. Look at studio photographs. Look at magazine covers. You'll be able to reverse-engineer their lighting in no time.

so the two 45 degree angle lights is a 3-point technique?

It is, you're just missing one light. No matter. One light as a key, the other behind the subject as a hair light. Then get a reflector (a white wall, a big white sheet of cardboard, etc) and you'll have your third light to soften the shadows on the opposite side of the face relative to the key light.

how much can one experiment with two lights tho? ... how about colour inserts for the umbrellas?

You should see what I can do with one light. Reflectors help, of course. As far as gels go, you can certainly C47 a gel to your light and when it bounces into a white umbrella, the color translates accurately (white reflects, black absorbs) and you have a nice, soft, colored light on your subject.

Transformers... Michael Bay...

Let me put it this way: he's a good cinematographer; a capable second unit director at best. But I wouldn't trust him with telling a story.

i am cool with moving tungsten lights backwards, although maybe they would not be cool with that if they are very hot.

For all intents and purposes, you're only handling the light stand, which is cool. If you need to move the lights themselves or adjust the barn doors, you can one of two things: turn it off and wait for it to cool down before handling, or use C47s (a C47 is a spring-action clothespin (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clothespin#Filmmaking)).

the very cheap item, if it works well with tungsten lights, could be very very handy for a beginner like me

The thing is, Pro Lights aren't very powerful. They're powerful enough and if your lens opens up pretty wide then you can certainly benefit from dim controls, particularly if you're in a tight space or you want very soft light so you need to have the light close to your subject but you don't want your background underexposed. Sure, a dimmer's fine, just make sure it can handle the power.

thought i would get a Router aswell?

A router? To go with the dimmer item thing? I wouldn't unless you're going to do some serious woodworking (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wood_router). Speaking of cheap, I wouldn't trust a $20 dimmer on my $400 lights. I'm just sayin'.

jabloomf1230

2008 January 11th, 17:24

http://youtube.com/watch?v=8jQd25N9XNY

Wow, that was a big dose of marchitecture. "30p for screen grabbing captures of stills and for uploading video to the Internet"? And the black color truly makes it more "sleek" looking. Is this a camcorder or a strapless evening dress?:eek:

Seriously, this seems to be the trend in consumer electronics these days. The public expects a new improved product line every year and the technology (along with industry standards) does not advance that rapidly.

Mal

2008 January 11th, 17:32

...I wouldn't trust a $20 dimmer on my $400 lights.

The lights that you recommended (and which I agree are good lights, especially for traveling) were the Lowel Pro lights, and they are $110 each.
That router "speed controller" works perfectly fine for those.

Let's not get carried away...

threadhanger

2008 January 11th, 19:29

"Wow, that was a big dose of marchitecture. "30p for screen grabbing captures of stills and for uploading video to the Internet"? And the black color truly makes it more "sleek" looking. Is this a camcorder or a strapless evening dress?"

Well you can buy color coordinated Tazer guns now.

icarusi

2008 January 11th, 19:42

Hi All,

I spoke with the Canon camera reps at CES today and they looked dumbfounded when I asked them about 24p pulldown flags on the HV30. I got the feeling we are waaaay below their radar.

24F/24/25p were probably sneaked in as an fx, which is fair for DV but for HDV..................

JRJ Photo

2008 January 11th, 23:29

Let's not get carried away...

I knew that would get your attention. :D

JRJ Photo

2008 January 11th, 23:34

Well you can buy color coordinated Tazer guns now.

...you can? <<Googles around.>> Crap, you can! Apparently they come in...leopard? Well...it'd go great with my, uh...Mac OS, I suppose...

GlennG

2008 January 11th, 23:45

VJ_Jasper,

I'm uploading the list of my vacation gear, here:
http://hv20.com/showthread.php?t=5793

RicanJoe

2008 January 13th, 18:51

I hope the hv30 does not have a rolling shutter (If it has to do with cmos, the I hope it has 3ccd!!) I would like to be able to shoot acceptable handheld footage for an action packed short film. :hv20-smilie51:

nathan118

2008 January 15th, 18:48

Maybe Taky can chime in on this as I see he has mentioned it before. I am in the market for an hv20/hv30, and the 30p shooting mode sounds VERY intriguing. I can't stand working with interlaced video, and the idea of being able to shoot 30p out of the box and never having to deinterlace sounds great. I've downloaded a raw m2ts file in 60i and tried to deinterlace it with Vegas, and no matter it had a slight stutter. The advantages of 30p over 24p in terms of workflow and sensitive shooting have me excited.

I've got a baby coming in March, so I really want to have an HD cam for that. Anyone else looking forward to the 30p, or is it really not that big a deal? And finally, has Canon said much about the release date of the HV30? Thanks guys.

Lunchbox

2008 January 15th, 18:51

nathan118, what do you want me to say? What if you baby comes earlier than HV20 being available? something to consider.

nathan118

2008 January 15th, 19:02

Lunchbox

2008 January 15th, 19:06

You gonna love the 30p mode. I'm like you, I hate 24p as there're so many vertical jittering during panning. I also need to run 50% slomo which makes 24p looks pretty bad.

60i is okay but it just reminds me of cheap home video look. I shot a couple of weddings already in 60i. The DVD looks okay but it doesn't quite having the rich expensive feeling of the FRAME mode I had of the GL2.

Now I'm shooting 30F on XH-A1 combine with PF24 in HV20. I like the quality better this way. I also try not to pan using HV20 as much. So it would be the best combination to shoot 30F/30P.

Grahamk

2008 January 16th, 00:06

I'm also a fence sitter trying to determine whether to wait on the HV30 or go with the HV20. I'm just starting to get my head around the 24p pulldown thing and now 30p gets thrown in.
-Which looks better? 24p or 30p? Do you still have to remove pulldown with 30p?
-Will one be easier to work with in an NLE than the other?
-Which looks better left in the 60i stream?
Sorry for all the questions

Lunchbox

2008 January 16th, 00:11

- Which looks better? 24p or 30p?
It's subjective. I don't think there is a big difference in "which looks better". After all, it's only 6 frames difference per second.

- Do you still have to remove pulldown with 30p?
It's already a 29.97fps video. There's no pulldown to remove.

-Will one be easier to work with in an NLE than the other?
Depends on which NLE you are talking about.

-Which looks better left in the 60i stream?
Why you need to leave a 30p video in 60i stream?

timecodebandit

2008 January 17th, 06:11

Quote:
Originally Posted by PTravel
"The HV30’s LCD screen has been upgraded to resist solarizing, and the camcorder supports the Canon BP-2L24H expanded battery pack, which the HV20 does not."

I have been using the BP-2L24H expanded battery packs on my HV20 since Canon europe supplied them to me in November 2007. They are 2400mh and about twice the length of the standard battery. They have a very slightly different molded casing, which whilst fitting the camera, would not fit my 3rd party charger (a Hahnel). I had to get a new charger and plate from Energizer, which works fine.

Ian-T

2008 January 17th, 08:42

I don't really need advice about buying the camera in terms of the baby. I realize that if there is no hv30 when the baby comes, my next best choice is the hv20.

I was hoping people might have more input about the 30p shooting mode and it's value, thus helping me determine how long I should wait in terms of my deadline.I know you say you tried deinterlacing 60i....but...was it the 24p wrapped in 60i...or was it "just" 60i video? If you try to deinterlace the 24p wrapped in 60i with Vegas then yeah...there will be that stutter. 24p has a stutter...but so does 30p...there really is not that much of a discernable difference visually (at least to me). I'm only speaking of my perception coming from a 30p cam.

Nathan get the HV20. 30p is nice to have on cam but you can easily get 30p with 60i...just like you can get 24p with 60i. I used to shoot this way all the time. IMHO 30p is more of a gimmick to say it's for the Web (yes it is better for the Web...but it's not like you don't already have options). Sure...motion will not be as "jittery" as 24p...but...umm...that's what makes 24p...24p. The argument has always been that you loose some vertical resolution when you shoot 60i and convert to 30p as opposed to having a cam that shoots 30p. But...if it's just for the Web....you can not tell the difference just by looking at it. Hypothetically speaking...if you plan on doing a film out or something...then 30p is as bad choice....it should be 60i or straight up 24p. SHooting 60i gives yu a lot more choices in post. If you can wait...then get the HV30...but I don't think you need to harp on the 30p factor...just shoot 60i and get a decent deinterlacer.

skulpt

2008 January 18th, 10:32

Ok. You convinced me to buy a HV20 over HV30. How much commission do you get for this? LOL. :)

Brian

Lunchbox

2008 January 18th, 10:52

...is nice to have on cam but you can easily get 30p with 60i...

Ian, what's your method to obtain 30p from 60i? I'm interested to learn. Thanks

nathan118

2008 January 18th, 20:41

I know you say you tried deinterlacing 60i....but...was it the 24p wrapped in 60i...or was it "just" 60i video? If you try to deinterlace the 24p wrapped in 60i with Vegas then yeah...there will be that stutter. 24p has a stutter...but so does 30p...there really is not that much of a discernable difference visually (at least to me). I'm only speaking of my perception coming from a 30p cam.

It was a raw 60i mt2s that I downloaded to play with. The results after deinterlacing weren't terrible, so I don't think it was 24p in 60i. I think I have fairly sensitive eyes, and the deinterlaced (using vegas) footage just wasn't very smooth. I'm pretty sure that was using interpolate per Eugenia's suggestion, but perhaps I need to try a different raw clip, and maybe a different deinterlacer.

The whole reason any of this matters to me is for good compression. I've got an HTPC that can play anything in the world (or just about :)), but the only good "reencode" that I've been able to get from the raw footage was a 60i mpeg2. Deinterlacing to 264 or WMV-HD didn't look right. I tried some of the blu-ray presets in vegas 8 that could leave the footage interlaced, and they didn't look right either.

I guess since I've got time to wait for the hv30 I should get back to trying out some different encoding settings. My goal is high quality that can be stored on a cheap dvd5, not web video. Time to look into this more. :)

Ian-T

2008 January 18th, 21:01

Ian, what's your method to obtain 30p from 60i? I'm interested to learn. Thanks
It's ben a good while but in Vegas, when saving to something like Quicktime format I just chose a custom template... selected 29.970(NTSC)...selected the correct pixel aspect ratio (if I remember I think it was 1)...and selected the field order (can't remember if it was upper field or lower field).

Edit: In your properties you would also have "Deinterlace Methd" set to Interpolate fields or Blend fields. And for HDV (which I did not have at the time) you would set it to the HDV 1080-60i (1440 x 1080, 29.970 fps) template.

nathan118

2008 January 19th, 16:38

Anybody have a link to some good raw 60i video that I could play with deinterlacing and reencoding? Everything I find has either already been reencoded or is youtube/vimeo stuff. Thanks!

nathan118

2008 January 19th, 17:31

Sorry if this is getting too far off topic, but I'll keep it short.

I did a whole ton of tests with deinterlacing...and every time the pans come out horrible. It's not smooth, and looks "stuttery." Luckily I found a great way to preserve the interlacing of 60i, but with better compression than mpeg2. In vegas 8 under the sony avc settings you can do a blu-ray compatible setting that will maintain the interlacing, and it looks beautiful on my ps3. Perfectly smooth! It wasn't quite as good on my htpc, but I'll play with some of my playback settings on there.

Worst case I burn my edited video to regular dvds (and even at 15mbps avc you can fit almost 40 mins on a dvd) and watch them on the PS3. I don't know what the best bitrates are for avc at the different resolutions, but that gives me some good ideas of what I could do with 60i material.

Not to mention once blu-ray burners come around, if it's already a compatible format it can be thrown on a blu-ray disc and it's ready to share!

Edit: Even got my PC to share it's media library with the ps3...now I can just stream the encoded video over the network. Works great.

callahan

2008 January 20th, 11:33

They probably fixed the issue with the faulty firewire ports.

Luna

2008 January 22nd, 05:39

Finally got an HV20 for xmas. Haven't had it for 30 days yet so have decided to return it and wait for the HV30.

HV20_07

2008 January 24th, 01:24

What makes 30p a better format for the internet than 24p...From what I've seen 24p looks just fine on the internet. I am asking because I know the output of my work will most likely end up on the internet and if the difference is not that great then I'll be ordering a HV20 tomorrow or next week.

Thanks

jason

Sean Michael

2008 January 24th, 01:45

What makes 30p a better format for the internet than 24p...From what I've seen 24p looks just fine on the internet.

I think some (lower quality) video sites display video at 15 fps, so the argument goes that 30p converts to 15fps more smoothly than 24p.

You can produce 30p from the HV20 by deinterlacing 60i & rendering at 30p, but there is supposedly some resolution loss in the process (which is irrelevant if you are ultimately displaying the work via crappy YouTube-ish compression).

Higher quality video sites like Vimeo display HD video at 24 fps / 720p resolution... for which the HV20 works just fine.

At first I was enticed by the thought of clean 30p on the HV30, but upon further examination have decided that it's not that big a deal. (24p pulldown flags would be a big deal to me...but we don't yet know if the HV30 firmware includes pulldown flags.)

Ian-T

2008 January 24th, 07:30

Plus the quality loss is there is numbers but you really can't tell with your eyes.

In regards to the HF100 (and maybe even HF10) just found out they have no zebras like the HV20 (bummer). I wonder what else is missing besides the viewfinder.

zulk884

2008 January 24th, 16:03

Ian-T

2008 January 24th, 16:08

Hello all...

May I know when the HV30 release? Mid Feb or Early Feb?

I don't have HV20 either. Which is should I buy? HV20 or HV30?

I want to shot a documentary & budget film with it... I use DVX100 before & want to move to HD. Thanks!!They are both the same cameras. The difference is HV20 has 24p while HV30 has 24p/30p. If you want to save some money then the HV20 is cheaper by a few hundred dollars.

zulk884

2008 January 24th, 16:39

They are both the same cameras. The difference is HV20 has 24p while HV30 has 24p/30p. If you want to save some money then the HV20 is cheaper by a few hundred dollars.

In UK, It just about £100 different.

Does anybody know, when HV30 exactly release? Its black & Sexy :hv20-smilie03:

Lunchbox

2008 January 24th, 17:59

According to Amazon, the release date is March 1, 2008.

Ian-T

2008 January 24th, 18:31

In UK, It just about £100 different.

Does anybody know, when HV30 exactly release? Its black & Sexy :hv20-smilie03:
Oops...I overlooked my PALs in the rest of the world.

zulk884

2008 January 24th, 22:12

According to Amazon, the release date is March 1, 2008.

I have to wait another 1 1/2 month!!

Thanks Taky.

koolpenguin89

2008 January 25th, 00:33

Oops...I overlooked my PALs in the rest of the world.

lolololol:hv20-smilie87:

i feel like such a nerd for getting that joke...oh well

Rigel

2008 January 26th, 11:27

Hi guys,

I really need a fast advise. Let me explain my situation. I bought a HG10 two weeks ago. I still can return it or exchange it today, Saturday, or tomorrow... After I will be stuck with it...:hv20-smilie02:

When I bought it, I thought I would be able to shoot 1920x1080/24p. No at all... After lot of reading I realized that it was a 1920x1080 CMOS but it was recorded at 1440x1080! Also, the 24p is not a real 24p but 24FP... And the Operator manual specify that this mode is recorded at 60i :hv20-smilie36:

Yesterday, I have gone to the store to speak with the specialist (He said). After I told him that my principal shoot are astronomy, steady image, like the Moon and rising/falling Sun. He have strongly suggest me to exchange the HG10 for a HV20, seeing that the late was doing full 1920x1080 in 24p.

1- Can someone confirm to me first that the HV20 doesn't record in 1440 as the HG10, and is it true 24p?

He also told me the better image cause the 25 mps for the HV20 versus the 15 mps for the HG10. Does the AVCHD is really really good?

I read on Canon website a principal difference between the HV20 and HV30. the HV20 can do:

1080/60i, 1080/24P, 1080/30F, 1080/24F

while the HV30 can do:

1080/60i, 1080/24p, 1080/30F, 1080/24F, 1080/30p !!!

Finally, he told me that the HV model are Firewire, a plus for me on MacBook, and he said that absolutely no compression was done on HV.

On the plus for the HG10, I found a way to backup the Hardrive so easily that I thought I should share it will all of you:

1- Connect your HG10 via USB on the MacBook.
2- Open Disk Utility
3- Create a dmg image of the HG10 hardrive on a external harddrive, I used my 1Tb Western Digital Firewire hardrive.
4- When done, mount it, and for better identification, rename it...
5- You can now use iMovie08 to read it, as if you had two Canon HG10 camera!

I even shooted new sequences this morning, copied the folder BDMV from the Canon HG10 over the one of my mount drive, overwriting all... And while I am writing now, iMovie does import the new sequences from my mount drive!

That said, I am kind of confused about the choice I should make. the HV20 or 30 would also give me the opportunity to connect the camera with Firewire and use it to shoot and save right into iMovie, am i right?

But that would be tape... Is it really long and frustrating to import from tape?

Plus, I do expect to do a lot of edition into iMovie08...

Which one I should keep???:hv20-smilie50:

Yves

Ian-T

2008 January 26th, 17:41

@ Rigel

Seems like you got a lot of misinformation there. I just want to say first that both the HG10 and HV20 are "true" 24p. They both also have native 1920x1080 CMOS sensors..... But in regards to the HV20, and due to HDV standards...the footage is recorded to tape at 1440x1080. The only way to get 1920x1080 is from the HDMI output of the Hv20 (and HG10) with an intensity card (third party hardware)....other than that everything going over firewire is going to be 1440x1080.

The HG10 also records to 1440x1080. The picture of the HV20 is only slightly better than the HG10. The HG10 is not HDV but it is AVCHD, which is a little more challenging to edit with. HDV in the HV20 is 25mbps while the AVCHD in the HG10 is 15Mbps. AVCHD has the "potential" to look just as good as or even better than HDV...but it's not going to happen at its current 15Mbps data rate. There are a couple new solid state cameras coming out next month from Canon (like the HG10) but delivers 1920x1080 @ 17 Mbps (an even higher data rate than the HG10). But we will have to wait to see what their picture quality looks like to tell if the extra data rate helps the picture.

I've just given you half the story...but please search the forums to do some more reading...there is plenty of info in regards to all of your questions. Hope this helps a little bit....

By the way...the HV20 and the HG10 both do 60i...24p....
The new HV30 coming next month will do the same..but it adds 30p also....

Ian-T

2008 January 26th, 17:45

lolololol:hv20-smilie87:

i feel like such a nerd for getting that joke...oh well
lol....don't worry.....I'm starting to believe we all are...on some level....

TheoO

2008 January 30th, 22:23

lol.. hv20 , hv30... the same.... :)
I`m happy with my hv20

FLIMACKGOD

2008 January 31st, 10:24

So there really isn't a big difference in the two?
I shoot music videos with a canon xl1-s and im thinking about selling it and getting the 20 or the 30 with the adapter... them mamamamas is killig my camera, what do yall think?

Alsone

2008 February 3rd, 09:50

I'm kind of wondering here why Canon don't do what they did with the EOS Digital rebel - release a consumer version of their professional camera with all the professional performance but a cut down spec.

This was the biggest revolution ever in stills cameras and produced massive sales for Canon bringing professional quality in amateur reach.

Seems to be the formula could work for video just as well. Take an AH1, its professional lens and mic, re-body it into a lighter alu chassis and add plastic panels, disable some of the most advanced professional features but leave some semi pro accessible such as mic / video gain, then knock it out for $1500-1600.

Got to be a sure fire winner for both Canon and the consumer.

FLIMACKGOD

2008 February 3rd, 10:10

your right!

Lunchbox

2008 February 3rd, 10:12

your right!

his right?

:)

Davidaase

2008 February 7th, 10:53

but -your- left...

Lou van Wijhe

2008 February 7th, 19:02

I think you mean this:

Ya had a good home but you left
YOU'RE RIGHT

You're momma said stay but you left
YOU'RE RIGHT

Sound off
One Two

Sound Off
Three four

etc.

Lou

Ian-T

2008 February 7th, 19:07

I think you mean this:

Ya had a good home but you left
YOU'RE RIGHT

You're momma said stay but you left
YOU'RE RIGHT

Sound off
One Two

Sound Off
Three four

etc.

LouBRING IT ON BACK!!

Lunchbox

2008 February 7th, 19:10

You're momma said stay but you left
YOU'RE RIGHT

You are momma said stay ?

Lou van Wijhe

2008 February 7th, 19:23

You are momma said stay ?
That's soldier talk. Never been in the army?

Lunchbox

2008 February 7th, 19:27

No.. I was never been in army. But soldier will say "your momma" as "you're momma" ?

Ian-T

2008 February 7th, 19:32

Ha...he meant..."your"...not "you're (you are)."
...but I'm ex-Army here Lou...I gotcha....

Erik Bien

2008 February 7th, 19:58

That's what I love about the Internet ... a Dutchman and a guy from Hong Kong busting each other's chops over English contractions ... you people need a hobby!

(Whoops! Too late!) :hv20-smilie45:

Lunchbox

2008 February 7th, 19:59

I thought I have a hobby by owning an hv20.

heheh

Lou van Wijhe

2008 February 8th, 04:48

What's a HV20?

Lou

VideJo

2008 February 8th, 06:32

See?! Navy men have always been much brighter! A HV20 is a camera!

redman042

2008 February 12th, 12:09

Like a few others here, I have a baby on the way (due in August), so I've decided to pull the trigger and get an HD videocam. Looks like the HV20 or HV30 are still the best values. I was also thinking about the Sony HDR-SR10 or 11 but those will start at $999 and the jury's out on whether they will match Canon's low light performance. Plus there's the whole issue of AVCHD compression still not being up to snuff.

Anyway, of course I'd like to get the camera right now, but I could stand to wait a few months. The HV20 at around $600 is very appealing. That would leave me more cash for accessories and a new computer to edit the video. My question is, does anyone have a guess as to what the price situation will look like around May-June? Any chance the HV20 will get cheaper in the next few months, or alternatively, the HV30 will drop to the $700 price range by then? I know I'm asking people to see the future, but perhaps the price history of the HV20 will be telling (I'm not sure how much it was when it first hit the street, and how long it took to drop in price).

bluegrass

2008 February 12th, 17:30

the prices on the hv20 & 30 3 or 4 months out is the 64k$ question that a lot of us are wondering.

my prediction is that you won't see much lower prices than the $600 range for the hv20 in may or june and the hv30 will not sell for much less than $100 under retail at for the first 6 months they become available.

i don't get paid for predictions though.

Chicken Warrior

2008 February 13th, 01:48

See?! Navy men have always been much brighter! A HV20 is a camera!

An HV20.
:hv20-smilie81:

bluegrass

2008 February 13th, 10:04

USS Rockbridge - APA228 - gator navy - Norfolk - 61'-63'.

AntiquePhotons

2008 February 13th, 10:22

redman042

2008 February 14th, 20:56

My guess is that as the supply of Canon HV20's dry up it will soon go the way of the Panasonic PV-GS400. Just try to find one of those for anything less than an arm and a leg! Better to get it now while the price is relatively cheap.

Of course that's just the opinion of this former US Army Troop & ROK Ranger, I could be wrong.

Thanks for the advice, and I agree, so I just pulled the trigger. HV20 from Abe's for $630, no tax or shipping. Can't beat that, and I can't imagine a better deal for an HD cam like this coming along for quite a while! It's more likely the HV20 will run out of stock everywhere at this price, then I won't have a deal like this available to me for a while.

I was a little tempted by the HG10, going for $599. The build quality and convenience factors were very tempting, but image quality ended up deciding it for me, and for that, it's the HV20 all the way. Macroblocking in moving scenes is just not what I want to see.

Based on various feedback on this forum, I also picked up a Merkury 58mm black wide angle lens with a 43-58mm adapter ring, Canon DL-50 external mic, Canon Video Light for Adv. Acc. Shoe, and a spare 2000mAh battery. I'll pick out my own bag from a local Wolf Camera once I have everything.

Going 58mm on my filters also allows me to use the UV filter and circular polarizer that I already have for my Canon Digital Rebel SLR.

The camera plus all these accessories for under $900 total is a steal!