Confused what to buy

[vikeh]

Hi,

Im so confused right now watching many camcorder reviews and still have no idea which one to choose, I have a budget of €1500. I'm shooting motorsport events, short films next year and other random stuff, I want it good in low light and prefer to record in SD or a built in hard disk.

I thank you in advance for your honest opinions.

Justin

[drapeama]

Im so confused right now watching many camcorder reviews and still have no idea which one to choose, I have a budget of €1500. I'm shooting motorsport events, short films next year and other random stuff, I want it good in low light and prefer to record in SD or a built in hard disk.

In that budget range, a DSLR would come to mind first, as it's recording on SD cards, perform well in low-light and are easily in that price range. For what you intend to shoot (fast movements) any CMOS sensors will give you that "jell-o" effect, so a 3CCD camcorder would be your best bet: but it's more expensive and from what I remember records mainly on HDV (miniDV tapes).
I might forget some things, but others will certainly come up with nice advises and will guide you the right way to get what suits your needs!

[RandomFilmGuy]

Three cameras come to mind. canon t3i or 60D both can pretty much shoot in the dark they do awesome in low light. If you get one of them can use rest of money for sound and lights and stuff.

Another good camera is gh2.

But if you going for more of a camcorder camera. Cant go wrong with a XH A1 I see them used for around 1300. HDV is a friendly codec

[cgbier]

...and you don't want to buy a cam that records to hard drive.

[drapeama]

Three cameras come to mind. canon t3i or 60D both can pretty much shoot in the dark they do awesome in low light. If you get one of them can use rest of money for sound and lights and stuff.
Another good camera is gh2.
But if you going for more of a camcorder camera. Cant go wrong with a XH A1 I see them used for around 1300. HDV is a friendly codec
1) That would be a good option, for the same reason I've specified before.
2) There's no real need for lights, as it'll be motorsport events, but sound would definitively be important. Lenses as well, if he decides to go the DSLR route.
3) GH2 would be great too. Both the Canon and Panasonic DSLRs are well rated. Depends what look you're after, because they have a different look depending on what lenses you're using with them.
4) I've already specified it to him, but it's a bit out of his price range. That being said, HDV wasn't one of his prefered format. It's one of the best quality vs ease to edit so far. I own both DSLR and HDV cameras, both have their strenghts and weakness, but the HDV is way more easier to edit on a computer. And the quality loss or difference isn't an issue as it's barely noticeable between both.

...and you don't want to buy a cam that records to hard drive.
That would be the very last thing I'd do. HDV is my #1 choice for recording format, then comes SD cards (flash memory).

[Dr. Benway]

In that budget range, a DSLR would come to mind first, as it's recording on SD cards, perform well in low-light and are easily in that price range.

Absolutely. vikeh, look into getting a T2i/T3i/60D. Perhaps a 7D with a nice lens?

[drapeama]

Absolutely. vikeh, look into getting a T2i/T3i/60D. Perhaps a 7D with a nice lens?
I'd check for a more entry-level model, like the first three and I'd definitively get more lenses to fit on it instead. He'll always be able to upgrade the body later, if needed (which for now, isn't my case!).

[vikeh]

Thanks for your suggestions.

I already have a T3i, which I'm using as my primary camera. The reason I like recording on a hard drive because that's how I been thought, I never used MiniDV's so I can't say what are the advantages or not.

Also something else I didn't mention is that I shoot other sports such as Boxing, a sport where I need to zoom to the boxer and sometimes be wide to get the audience aswell, so I'm finding it difficult with the T3i when zooming cause it will be out of focus and I have to stop the recording, set the lens & focus and record again, which I cannot do as I have to cover the whole match.

Thanks again

[Mark G]

Well, it'll be tough to do what you want to do with your budget. The thing about HDV vs AVCHD is you are going to need to invest about $1,200 more in a PC to edit the AVCHD than the HDV, unless you already have a blazing fast PC. If you don't, maybe consider investing that 1,200 into a camera or accessories.

Some thoughts:

Canon G10 (4:2:0) - Doesn't have a long zoom and the XA10 would be better for audio, but G10 is a possibility.
Canon XF100 (4:2:2) out of your budget but worth considering if you can swing it.
Used Canon A1, then record to a Ninja HD recorder via firewire or HDMI rather than to tape. It 'might' give you 4:2:2 ...but check on that. I don't know this cam that well.
Used Sony Z5U. Again out of your budget, but may be worth considering if you can do it. You can get a optional CF card recorder and record to tape. Great low light, good audio and manual controls.

[ejolson]

Some thoughts:

Used Canon A1, then record to a Ninja HD recorder via firewire or HDMI rather than to tape. It 'might' give you 4:2:2 ...but check on that. I don't know this cam that well.


I don't think the Canon XH-A1 has HDMI, however, the 20x zoom might be good at a boxing match.

[vikeh]

Do you know from where I can buy used video equipment apart from bhphoto, adorama, ebay or amazon?

[ejolson]

Do you know from where I can buy used video equipment apart from bhphoto, adorama, ebay or amazon?

How about the Trade and Exchange Forum on HV20?

http://www.hv20.com/forumdisplay.php?27-Trade-amp-Exchange

[cgbier]

If you are going with DSLR, check KEH (http://www.keh.com/) for bodies and/or lenses. I have dealt with them before, and their used stuff is generally better than advertised.

[BarteS]

Wow, DSLR sort of as the default option? Short films could make it indeed make it a good pick as you can work around the challenges of a DSLR. But low light, seriously, it's about low light capabilities. You'd still have to get yourself a fast lens, could be a prime, but that could handicap you with sports.
Why are most ignoring camcorders, the G10, M41, M40 and M400 are good in low light too. I don't feel comfortable directly comparing those to a DSLR, simply due to the freedom to select a lens on the DSLR. I don't know what lens on a t3i would sort of make the low light equal to the Canon camcorders. Furthermore, at CES Canon did present some new cameras with an 'improved' version of the sensor in terms of light, compared to the camcorders I just mentioned.

@cgbier, I think vikeh doesn't live in the USA, which introduces the issue of warranty, customs, ...

[vikeh]

Wow, DSLR sort of as the default option? Short films could make it indeed make it a good pick as you can work around the challenges of a DSLR. But low light, seriously, it's about low light capabilities. You'd still have to get yourself a fast lens, could be a prime, but that could handicap you with sports.
Why are most ignoring camcorders, the G10, M41, M40 and M400 are good in low light too. I don't feel comfortable directly comparing those to a DSLR, simply due to the freedom to select a lens on the DSLR. I don't know what lens on a t3i would sort of make the low light equal to the Canon camcorders. Furthermore, at CES Canon did present some new cameras with an 'improved' version of the sensor in terms of light, compared to the camcorders I just mentioned.

@cgbier, I think vikeh doesn't live in the USA, which introduces the issue of warranty, customs, ...

I live in the tiny European island Malta :)

I was more looking for used camcorders if possible or new too. I'm interested in XA10 or XF100 something like that maybe there are better ones in that range...

[peterarcson]

I don't get it why people get into a DSLR at the moment. It's not any cheaper, then getting a dedicated video camera. By the time you end up buying all the extras for it, so it can work as video camera, might as well just buy something like FS100 from Sony. You are going to drop between 1-2.5 K on the body, then a couple of grand for good lenses. Stock lenses are OK, but these cameras start to shine with good glass and 2.8 zoom will be at least 1K. Then rails, sound recorder. Do you already have wireless mics, set of lights, good sticks? do you have a slider or a dolly? Do you have a field mixer (a must for any production). Video without good sound = zero. DSLR can be an addition, but is is not a production camera.

[cgbier]

cgbier, I think vikeh doesn't live in the USA, which introduces the issue of warranty, customs, ...
Oooops.

Vikeh, Malta seems to be a beautiful place to live. I'm jealous.

[vikeh]

Oooops.

Vikeh, Malta seems to be a beautiful place to live. I'm jealous.

Yeah true, a quite country (so far) with good night life, most especially in summer :)

[peterarcson]

BTW for filming fast action I would give Panasonic TM900 a good look. For $600 you'll get 1080/60p. It also has fair amount of manual controls.

[vikeh]

BTW for filming fast action I would give Panasonic TM900 a good look. For $600 you'll get 1080/60p. It also has fair amount of manual controls.

Thanks peterarcson

[drapeama]

BTW for filming fast action I would give Panasonic TM900 a good look. For $600 you'll get 1080/60p. It also has fair amount of manual controls.
That's a good option. I've suggested him (via email) to aim for a model that would do 60p for what he intends to shoot. Never thought of that model though.

[vikeh]

That's a good option. I've suggested him (via email) to aim for a model that would do 60p for what he intends to shoot. Never thought of that model though.

Thanks drapeama, infact I did order the TM900, if I find it good, although I know it is, I will buy another for the 3rd camera man too! Got also some good lavaliers and handheld and I'm almost good to go. Shoulder support is left for the TM900.

[BarteS]

Nice pick, beats the Canons I mentioned in broad daylight and has slow motion (at night its a different ballgame). Enjoy :)

[vikeh]

What shoulder mounts are best for the TM900? I need to add additional items to it so it must be able to be customized, I was looking at the straight rig (http://jag35.com/products/shoulderrigs/straightrig.html) from JAG35 but I think its more for a DSLR than a camcorder. Any suggestions?

Thanks

[drapeama]

I was looking at the straight rig (http://jag35.com/products/shoulderrigs/straightrig.html) from JAG35 but I think its more for a DSLR than a camcorder.
It could work, even with pro-sumer camcorders.
400$ for that is a little pricey though. This (http://www.ebay.com/itm/Opteka-CXS-300-SLR-Camera-Camcorder-Video-Shoulder-Stabilizer-Support-System-Rig-/270857946507?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3f1064458b) looks pretty much the same for under half the price:
14289

Even this one (http://www.ebay.com/itm/PROAIM-DV-DSLR-SHOULDER-Mount-RIG-190-Steadycam-Stabilization-System-Rod-Support-/190626318538?pt=AU_Cameras_Photographic_Accessorie s&hash=item2c6236c8ca) is cheaper (price wise) and there's a quick release plate on it.

Hope it can help.

[vikeh]

It could work, even with pro-sumer camcorders.
400$ for that is a little pricey though. This (http://www.ebay.com/itm/Opteka-CXS-300-SLR-Camera-Camcorder-Video-Shoulder-Stabilizer-Support-System-Rig-/270857946507?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3f1064458b) looks pretty much the same for under half the price:
14289

Even this one (http://www.ebay.com/itm/PROAIM-DV-DSLR-SHOULDER-Mount-RIG-190-Steadycam-Stabilization-System-Rod-Support-/190626318538?pt=AU_Cameras_Photographic_Accessorie s&hash=item2c6236c8ca) is cheaper (price wise) and there's a quick release plate on it.

Hope it can help.

That proaim one looks good, I need to add some shoes to it though, such as the microphone, LED lights and maybe also battery packs and LCD.

[drapeama]

That proaim one looks good, I need to add some shoes to it though, such as the microphone, LED lights and maybe also battery packs and LCD.
Then why not going with a DSLR cage (http://www.ebay.com/itm/6-Camera-Cage-Rod-Support-DSLR-Cameras-d3100-t2i-5d-D90-7D-GH1GH2-T3i-D7000-/370576030892?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item56480d7cac)? (same seller and recommended) I bought one for 100$ in the late 2011. They don't seem to produce the same model I've bought though.
Then buy a simple shoulder pad (http://www.ebay.com/itm/CatClaw-Shoulder-Pad-Type-Light-15mm-Rod-Rig-system-5D2-7d-HDSLR-/110764523534?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item19ca14800e) and some handles (http://www.ebay.com/itm/CatClaw-Handgrip-Type-15mm-rod-handle-matte-box-5D2-7d-DSLR-Rig-handle-/120843307347?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item1c22d28953) and you're good to go.


edit: another seller is offering a very similar model (http://www.ebay.com/itm/6-dslr-cage-w-top-handle-quick-release-carbon-fiber-rods-550d-40d-d60-hv30-/190604276422?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item2c60e672c6) of DSLR cage that the one I purchased last year.

Just in case you wouldn't be convinced, here's (http://www.ebay.com/itm/Proaim-9-dslr-cage-w-top-handle-tripod-mount-plate-7d-5d-gh1-t2i-d80-60d-/110799292540?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item19cc27087c) something that could do!
http://www.hdvshop.com/DSLR%20Cage/10cmini-16.jpg

[vikeh]

Then why not going with a DSLR cage (http://www.ebay.com/itm/6-Camera-Cage-Rod-Support-DSLR-Cameras-d3100-t2i-5d-D90-7D-GH1GH2-T3i-D7000-/370576030892?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item56480d7cac)? (same seller and recommended) I bought one for 100$ in the late 2011. They don't seem to produce the same model I've bought though.
Then buy a simple shoulder pad (http://www.ebay.com/itm/CatClaw-Shoulder-Pad-Type-Light-15mm-Rod-Rig-system-5D2-7d-HDSLR-/110764523534?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item19ca14800e) and some handles (http://www.ebay.com/itm/CatClaw-Handgrip-Type-15mm-rod-handle-matte-box-5D2-7d-DSLR-Rig-handle-/120843307347?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item1c22d28953) and you're good to go.


edit: another seller is offering a very similar model (http://www.ebay.com/itm/6-dslr-cage-w-top-handle-quick-release-carbon-fiber-rods-550d-40d-d60-hv30-/190604276422?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item2c60e672c6) of DSLR cage that the one I purchased last year.

Just in case you wouldn't be convinced, here's (http://www.ebay.com/itm/Proaim-9-dslr-cage-w-top-handle-tripod-mount-plate-7d-5d-gh1-t2i-d80-60d-/110799292540?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item19cc27087c) something that could do!
http://www.hdvshop.com/DSLR%20Cage/10cmini-16.jpg

With a dslr cage I cannot put my hands on the side to zoom unless I use the zoom from remote.. remember I need to zoom while shooting motorsport events.

[drapeama]

With a dslr cage I cannot put my hands on the side to zoom unless I use the zoom from remote.. remember I need to zoom while shooting motorsport events.
You can configure it pretty much like you want:
https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-krNfnnsr7wE/ToSVn_O6ulI/AAAAAAAABhI/3FG8xBMnHm4/s640/_MG_6904.JPGhttps://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-yqCC0l4H3Ro/ToSV_rhC-CI/AAAAAAAABhc/48IXm41oqek/s640/_MG_6908.JPGhttps://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-u-kcdtwhwmE/ToSXXMoG3XI/AAAAAAAABiE/AFhQoMqs4I8/s640/_MG_6922.JPGhttps://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-kz7P-WouBeU/ToSW_IsUpuI/AAAAAAAABh4/bPrQUO-xPI4/s912/_MG_6920.JPG

My current setup is actually the opposite side (cage on the left) so I'm operating the camera with the right hand (with an external monitor) :
https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-Zr76q3PFMCw/TxB5Z5vhgSI/AAAAAAAACbo/3ntOWxEyV1I/s912/_MG_9000.JPGhttps://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-k4kdE-OKZAM/TxB5YorhmCI/AAAAAAAACbw/UiLf0q-XJrE/s912/_MG_9004.JPGhttps://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-j3pWnhqhl4g/TxB5Yni3MQI/AAAAAAAACb0/P4GjX9sI-6M/s912/_MG_9005.JPG
https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-BLAryMWEkBc/TxB5Nk6LAdI/AAAAAAAACcM/GtNUCCMfJyw/s640/_MG_9001.JPG

Or make one yourself:
https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-6qMR7hgYaIo/TxB5YGktbBI/AAAAAAAACb4/ySCVSltsqCQ/s912/_MG_8996.JPGhttps://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-MPl1bc0hIRI/TxB5XhslW3I/AAAAAAAACb8/Yi8yhr9LfRM/s912/_MG_8997.JPGhttps://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-QSdHy3iKeUw/TxB5TSn9ERI/AAAAAAAACcE/PpBYOBvOy8c/s912/_MG_8994.JPG
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-PDuh-Vhv4nA/TxB5Wwg3a9I/AAAAAAAACcA/rANwWG3Xe3c/s640/_MG_8999.JPG
Made using 3/8 aluminium rods. Rock Solid and works well. Not as convenient when comes the time to mount it and un-mount it on the rails, but once it's on it, it's solid.
For the few times I'm using my adapter, I didn't wanted to invest a lot in a rail system, so I made one for a few bucks (under 50$).