New announcement of an announcement!

[Duke]

"We will announce a new option for EPIC in the next few days. Jim"

http://www.scarletuser.com/showthread.php?t=4997

You know how Red always makes an announcement when another camera company releases info on a camera that may compete with a Red camera.

Well here they had the AF100 release of info by Panasonic, then Red announces the Epic is ready (even though it isn't), then Sony announces the F3!

What is Red to do? Make an announcement of an announcement of an announcement?

[AJUK]

You have to feel for those guys. If they'd managed to get everything to come together then RED really could have become a lasting brand.
I just don't see how they can compete now that all the unique selling points of their cameras are being eroded by the established manufacturers.
It can only be a matter of time until RED go under.

[Koppel]

The Sony seems to be a bit on the expensive side.
The PWM-F3L package will shipping end of January or early February as a basic camera with PL adaptor (no lenses): list price will be around $16,000. Yes, the comma is in the correct place: $16K.

Then again, compared to ARRI Alexa it's really cheap.

I don't think the picture quality from the ARRI or SONY looks that much different from the Panasonic AF100.

A lot of people need something just a little better than a DSLR. Keep the shallow DOF, loose the moire and aliasing, add PCM audio recording with XLR inputs and ND filters... basically what the Panasonic AF100 is.

The Scarlet has just a few things better, 120fps recording and HDR shooting.
RAW is also great but the Panasonic seems to have a better workflow.

The Scarlet is not that special anymore...

[AJUK]

Yeah the Panasonic AF100 is looking very nice indeed. Once some new hybrid camcorder (maybe the elusive new Canon that rumoured) comes out with 120fps and better latitude... whats left for Red?

[Gillvane]

I don't think the picture quality from the ARRI or SONY looks that much different from the Panasonic AF100.



Picture quality WHERE? Once you get past a certain level and into the pro gear, it's not about the web anymore. The pros are looking for specs that hold up in Broadcast TV, or the Big Screen.

Those specs dont' mean much when you're looking at footage on the web, and after a certain point, one camera will do as well as another for that.

Red doesn't look any better than the Af-100 on the web, really. BUT, if you're going to color grade the footage, ad serious professional special effects, and show it at a theater, you might see a difference.

And what do I care about 50mbs for Vimeo and Youtube? Makes no difference to me. But, if you're selling a documentary to the BBC, they want 50mbs minimum.

I think it's just a matter of whether you're doing film festivals and youtube, or making national commercials, and movies for a theatrical release.

There's some crossover these days, some prosumer gear being used by the pros, and some prosumers being able to afford some pro gear. But the division is still there, and if you want to meet professional standards, you still need the pro gear.

[Koppel]

Picture quality WHERE?
You talk about web. I never mentioned web. I was thinking about quality straight out of camera.

EOSHD.com
Compared to the $150k Sony F35, the Arri Alexa is a bargain at $50k. Compared to the Arri Alexa the Sony F3 is a bargain at $20k. Compared to the Sony F3 the Panasonic AF100 is a steal at $5k. Compared to an AF100 the GH2 is a giveaway at $1000. You get the idea... the F3 is not going to be for the masses.

I would like to see a resolution chart and dynamic range comparison between these.
I dont think that above the AF100 things change too much.

[Duke]

I would like to see a resolution chart and dynamic range comparison between these. I dont think that above the AF100 things change too much.

When testing Nigel Cooper said the AF100 resolution tested similar to the EX1, at the Nyquist limits. (No one has see those test results though but I don't doubt it.)

The biggest advantages of the F3 over the AF100 are noise and dynamic range. The signal to noise ratio on the F3 is 64db, which is spectacular. The EX1 is extremely good when compared to prosumer cams, like the HMC150, etc, and its at 57db. The AF100 has more noise than an F3, not bad but its there.

On top of that the s-log on the F3 increases dynamic range 640% according to Sony. But you would expect those sort of improvements in a more expensive camera.

For most things you can work around these limitations if you know how and spend the time. More important is the F3 and AF100 can be bought in the next couple of months.

[Halsu]

The Scarlet has just a few things better, 120fps recording and HDR shooting.
RAW is also great but the Panasonic seems to have a better workflow.

The Scarlet is not that special anymore...

It all depends ;-)

To some, RAW, HDR, 3K resolution and 120 fps are pretty impressive features, still unmatched by any competition out there under $100K, AFAIK.

As far as workflow goes, you can simply drag and drop the Red files to timeline in i.e. Sony Vegas or Premiere and start editing - doesn't get much easier than that...

BTW, the announcement of announcement was about a small number of hand made Epics available to the public before the regular manufacturing kicks off - at a premium price of around $ 60 000... and yep, it looks like there's more demand for those than they can supply - many are willing to pay double price for an Epic to get it a month or two early.

[1]

...still unmatched by any competition out there under $100K.

Being unavailable to purchase for who-knows-how-long yet, it's SOOOO unmatched, it can't even match itself! :)

[Duke]

To some, RAW, HDR, 3K resolution and 120 fps are pretty impressive features, still unmatched by any competition out there under $100K, AFAIK.

Come on Halsu, you were telling me the Scarlet was going to be here in 2009. Now 2010 is about gone.

In the mean time two versions of the Scarlet have already been canceled (3k for $3k, and S35). Their remnants will be in different cameras with new features and new prices (ie. a whole new camera.)

That just means more delays. Originally I estimated April 2011 for the release date, but I've now revised that to Summer 2012. Right now they've just started testing the protypes of the Epic.

In the mean time cameras like the Sony F3 are being introduced with a fantastic S35 sensor and system, with an upgrade to 4.4.4 color, and a starting price of $13,300. Just gorgeous pictures and a tremendous signal to noise ratio.

With the debayer filter the 3k scarlet resolves about 2.2k. Its intended for 2k delivery, which isn't that different than 1920 width resolution.

With competition like, plus new cameras to come, there may never be a scarlet. Or just an Epic lite at $20,000.

[1]

Epic......FAIL!

(as my son would say :))

[Halsu]

Come on Halsu, you were telling me the Scarlet was going to be here in 2009. Now 2010 is about gone.

I don't think i was. I did say though that their own estimate at that point was 2009 release date, and that i had no better knowledge than that, thus i was optimistic ;-)


In the mean time two versions of the Scarlet have already been canceled (3k for $3k, and S35). Their remnants will be in different cameras with new features and new prices (ie. a whole new camera.)

Everything's subject to change ;-)

The original 3k for 3k Scarlet ceased to exist at the same time S35 was announced, when they switched to modular. The current fixed camera will go for around 6K with all necessary accessories to shoot AFAIK, and the body only with interchangeable lens mount goes for under 4K.


That just means more delays. Originally I estimated April 2011 for the release date, but I've now revised that to Summer 2012. Right now they've just started testing the protypes of the Epic.

Of course that's utter bull. In fact, Epic is done and out there right now, used in real feature film production (Spiderman, in 3D, shooting now):

http://reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=52649

Small prerelease series of handmade Epics is also available for purchase, at a premium price though.


In the mean time cameras like the Sony F3 are being introduced with a fantastic S35 sensor and system, with an upgrade to 4.4.4 color, and a starting price of $13,300. Just gorgeous pictures and a tremendous signal to noise ratio.

...of course that 4:4:4 upgrade or it's pricing are not available yet. Vaporware, as they say ;-)

Also, you'll need to be tethered to a 4:4:4 capable recorder to make use of that. One like these babies:

http://pro.sony.com/bbsc/ssr/cat-videorecorders/cat-rechdcamsr/

I found an used one, asking price $119,900.00:
http://www.film-bay.com/FORSALE/Cameras/HD/Sony/F23_with_SRW1___SRPC1/112971.html

...not cheap, eh?


With the debayer filter the 3k scarlet resolves about 2.2k. Its intended for 2k delivery, which isn't that different than 1920 width resolution.

The F3 has a bayer sensor too. I'd assume it will resolve around 1.5K at best.

This said, it's a nice camera, just not nearly in the same league as the Red offerings.


With competition like, plus new cameras to come, there may never be a scarlet. Or just an Epic lite at $20,000.

Utter bull. Scarlet is already done mechanically, the only thing they still work on is the firmware. The Epic-S (former Scarlet S35) pricing is not available yet, but before the change it was priced $8000 (assuming $1K for the HDRI capability). It will likely rise, but that $20 000 is just your guess, which is probably way over what will happen.

[Halsu]

Forgot to mention - Peter Jackson's "Hobbit" will shoot on Epics too...

[1]

Hobbit back on track again? Neat!

Spanish dude still directing?

[Halsu]

Hobbit back on track again? Neat!

Spanish dude still directing?

The Spaniard dropped the ball, Jackson is back in the helm. Shooting starts early next year, release is set for December 2012.

http://reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=52300&highlight=hobbit
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0903624/

[Duke]

I don't think i was. I did say though that their own estimate at that point was 2009 release date, and that i had no better knowledge than that, thus i was optimistic ;-)

So they misled you then. They were wrong so you were wrong. And you think they are right this time why? Because they said so?


Of course that's utter bull. In fact, Epic is done and out there right now, used in real feature film production (Spiderman, in 3D, shooting now):

When Peter Jackson shot that first experimental short with the Red One it was a barely functioning camera. For all the crashes and issues its a wonder he got it done. I wouldn't have put up with it. Even when the first retail Red One's were shipping they had lots of issues. Barry Green was mentioning his experience when buying an early Red One. He got rid of it very quickly.

The few Epics in existence are a jury rigged lot. Certification and testing are not complete.

Just because there is an announcement doesn't make it so, any more than calling those first Red Ones ready to go meant that they really were ready to go.


Small prerelease series of handmade Epics is also available for purchase, at a premium price though.

They aren't available for purchase. They're available for preorder. They will be made later. (I live a couple miles from the Red store. I was there last week.)


...of course that 4:4:4 upgrade or it's pricing are not available yet. Vaporware, as they say ;-)

I agree with you there. Its vaporware until you can actually buy it. But Sony has been releasing what they're advertising, not canceling the products.


Also, you'll need to be tethered to a 4:4:4 capable recorder to make use of that. One like these babies:
...not cheap, eh?

Those are not cheap. However, Sony said they are releasing two other recorders and one is supposed to be much cheaper. Plus I was talking to a Convergent Design person about the dual HD-SDI out of the Sony. The Nano is 4.2.2, and they have 3D working with synched Nanos. If you have two separate data streams from the HD-SDI out couldn't you have two synched Nanos and take different parts of the 4.4.4 color data from each. He's going to talk to the engineers about it.


The F3 has a bayer sensor too. I'd assume it will resolve around 1.5K at best.

A 3.4k sensor that after a debayer filter has no problems with full raster 1080p resolution.



This said, it's a nice camera, just not nearly in the same league as the Red offerings.

So far there is only one Red camera offering, plus one sensor upgrade. At $13,300 for an F3 with battery, LCD, grip, mic, etc. compared to a Red One MX at $25,000 with no battery, LCD, grip, etc you're right they aren't in the same categories of prices or abilities. A fully outfited Red One MX will run about $40k.


Utter bull. Scarlet is already done mechanically, the only thing they still work on is the firmware. The Epic-S (former Scarlet S35) pricing is not available yet, but before the change it was priced $8000 (assuming $1K for the HDRI capability). It will likely rise, but that $20 000 is just your guess, which is probably way over what will happen.

As you said above its vaporware until you can actually buy it. You don't know the price, features, or anything about it yet. Don't fall in love with a spec sheet.

I don't mean to argue. Sorry if it came off that way. "Just show me."

[Halsu]

So they misled you then. They were wrong so you were wrong. And you think they are right this time why? Because they said so?

Nope, they didn't mislead. They simply made an overly optimistic estimate, which i do think they themselves believed at that time. Everything is a subject to change, as said many times but hey, i'm an optimist and reserve the right to stay that way.

As far as being right this time goes, well, the Epics are out there right now, working, shooting a major motion picture.


When Peter Jackson shot that first experimental short with the Red One it was a barely functioning camera. For all the crashes and issues its a wonder he got it done. I wouldn't have put up with it. Even when the first retail Red One's were shipping they had lots of issues. Barry Green was mentioning his experience when buying an early Red One. He got rid of it very quickly.

I'm pretty sure i wouldn't have gotten rid of it, if i had one ;-)


The few Epics in existence are a jury rigged lot. Certification and testing are not complete.

As far as i have understood, mechanical testing IS complete. Firmware is still in the works.


Just because there is an announcement doesn't make it so, any more than calling those first Red Ones ready to go meant that they really were ready to go.

It's not a just an announcement, they are actually shooting the new Spiderman movie with Epics, right now. Maybe you should try reading the link:

http://reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=52649


They aren't available for purchase. They're available for preorder. They will be made later. (I live a couple miles from the Red store. I was there last week.)

That was the way Red Ones were sold for the first two years or so. The first hand made cameras will be delivered this month - will you accept them as "available for purchase" when the first one has shipped?


I agree with you there. Its vaporware until you can actually buy it. But Sony has been releasing what they're advertising, not canceling the products.

Well, i was attempting sarcasm with that vaporware comment. As far as canceling products goes, i haven't noticed Red canceling anything so far - changing, yes. I dig the openness of Red - they let us peek into the development of their products early on, and even make changes according to user feedback. I understand why some hate this - i don't.


Those are not cheap. However, Sony said they are releasing two other recorders and one is supposed to be much cheaper.

Yep - maybe only $ 75 000 or so?

;-)


Plus I was talking to a Convergent Design person about the dual HD-SDI out of the Sony. The Nano is 4.2.2, and they have 3D working with synched Nanos. If you have two separate data streams from the HD-SDI out couldn't you have two synched Nanos and take different parts of the 4.4.4 color data from each. He's going to talk to the engineers about it.

That would be pretty cool - though i recall NanoFlash is 8 bit only. So it's not the same. And two of those would set you back about $ 6000, even that is not exactly cheap.


A 3.4k sensor that after a debayer filter has no problems with full raster 1080p resolution.

Where did you get that info?

I tried to look for the sensor details, and didn't find exact photosite counts. I did find some discussion about the photosites being four times as large as with DSLR's, which would imply a 1920*1080 sensor...


So far there is only one Red camera offering, plus one sensor upgrade.

Arguably two, Epic is already out there, though not in numbers.


At $13,300 for an F3 with battery, LCD, grip, mic, etc. compared to a Red One MX at $25,000 with no battery, LCD, grip, etc you're right they aren't in the same categories of prices or abilities. A fully outfited Red One MX will run about $40k.

A fully outfitted F3 (in the same sense) will run around $ 25-30K. Add Sony's 4:4:4 recorder and that becomes 150K ;-)

Seriously though, sure Red one is more expensive than F3. It's also a much better quality camera.


As you said above its vaporware until you can actually buy it. You don't know the price, features, or anything about it yet. Don't fall in love with a spec sheet.

Not in love, but in appreciation -

The thing is, i work with Red One footage on a regular basis. Maybe not daily, but weekly. It's simply by far the best quality footage i've ever worked with, and i've worked with most of the good stuff out there, including 35mm film (Dalsa Origin was a good contender though).

I simply expect the new cameras to deliver similar or better quality. That's enough to make me enthusiastic.


I don't mean to argue. Sorry if it came off that way. "Just show me."

NP, it's fun ;-)

[Duke]

As far as being right this time goes, well, the Epics are out there right now, working, shooting a major motion picture.

Most movies are shot on one camera, with maybe B and C units for crowd scenes and background shots. Double that for 3D. So lets say six cameras. More than that and scheduling becomes a nightmare and unit crews get in each others way.

Peter Jackson ordered 30 of those hand assembled cameras to shoot the Hobbit.

Do you think he ordered 5 times the number of cameras because he likes to spend money and have cameras sitting in boxes?

Or because working with them from the beginning, he has always been a Red insider, knows the failure rate and knows how much it costs to have cast and crew standing around because of a camera glitch? (And he knows that Red will eventually make them work right.)

PS. The Red makes great images. I'm sure the Epic will too. I'm just saying its not as ready to go as most people assume.

PSS. For an F3 with my full range of Nikon prime lenses and my Nano, then I buy a lens adapter and a battery.

Less than $14k and I can have pretty much everything I wanted from a Scarlet S35 in February. (One retailer is now saying Feb 5.) You can pull beautiful keys and push color really far on I-frame at 220 Mbps. (In 99% of situations 4.4.4 isn't going to give you more. Go with a Ki Pro Mini if you want 10bit) The law of diminishing returns.

Plus it fits right in my EX1 work flow. If you want to say that's $20k, fine by me, but there are lots of guys in the same situation.

[Halsu]

Most movies are shot on one camera, with maybe B and C units for crowd scenes and background shots. Double that for 3D. So lets say six cameras. More than that and scheduling becomes a nightmare and unit crews get in each others way.

Peter Jackson ordered 30 of those hand assembled cameras to shoot the Hobbit.

Do you think he ordered 5 times the number of cameras because he likes to spend money and have cameras sitting in boxes?

Without knowing exactly, it's hard to tell. 30 sounds like a lot, but it might also be that they're i.e. prepared to crash a multitude of cameras or something. But yeah, it's likely that they keep plenty of cameras just as a backup.


Or because working with them from the beginning, he has always been a Red insider, knows the failure rate and knows how much it costs to have cast and crew standing around because of a camera glitch? (And he knows that Red will eventually make them work right.)

Failure rate depends on the readiness of the system - Red One was prone to failures in the next half an year or so, but not anymore. It may very well be that the currently working cameras are like that, for now, but i doubt it. They've been worked on in-house much further than they did with Red One the red folks say.


PS. The Red makes great images. I'm sure the Epic will too. I'm just saying its not as ready to go as most people assume.

As said, ready enough to be used in a major Hollywood production, not just test films. At least in the first day of the Spiderman shoots, all four Epics they had worked flawlessly:


The images we made today were stunning, rich beautiful color and the resolution of a vistavision camera all in a package the size of a Hasselblad 501. We are shooting 2.40 at 5K, there wasn't a hiccup from the cameras all day, the data was flawless, and there was a lot of it.


PSS. For an F3 with my full range of Nikon prime lenses and my Nano, then I buy a lens adapter and a battery.

Less than $14k and I can have pretty much everything I wanted from a Scarlet S35 in February. (One retailer is now saying Feb 5.) You can pull beautiful keys and push color really far on I-frame at 220 Mbps. (In 99% of situations 4.4.4 isn't going to give you more. Go with a Ki Pro Mini if you want 10bit) The law of diminishing returns.

Plus it fits right in my EX1 work flow. If you want to say that's $20k, fine by me, but there are lots of guys in the same situation.

Well, you're comparing apples and oranges. A 40K red package you referred to earlier likely includes pro quality cinema glass, matte box, follow focus etc., which amounts for a majority of the extra costs. A Red Package with DSLR lenses and minimum accessories to shoot is nowhere near 40K.

It will be interesting to know the pricing and availability for Epic-S (Former Scarlet S35). It might be much closer than you expect, and also much more affordable than you fear. The old version at least was cheaper than F3, even if you added decent catering of accessories to go with it.

This said, i like EX1 a lot, it's my weapon of choice nowadays. I rarely have a need for anything higher than the MPEG files it provides, even for greenscreen. It's plenty good for my purposes, so would be the F3. This doesn't take away the fact that the Red footage is in a league of it's own compared to this, as far as flexibility in post etc. goes. Is that flexibility really needed for most of the work i do? Not really. Is it crucial in some cases? Yep, it is, sometimes.

[Duke]

A 3.4k sensor that after a debayer filter has no problems with full raster 1080p resolution.


Where did you get that info?

I tried to look for the sensor details, and didn't find exact photosite counts. I did find some discussion about the photosites being four times as large as with DSLR's, which would imply a 1920*1080 sensor...

The Arri Alexa is a 3.5k sensor, the F3 is a 3.43k sensor (based on Phillip Johnstons' interview with Sony). What Arri & Sony are doing is down scaling a 3.4-3.5k sensor into a 1920x1080 output resolution.

Keep in mind, there is a general misunderstanding of the differentiation of a 'pixel' relative to a photosite. So if one group of a bayer pixels equals one output pixel, then yes, it will not be 444. But its not a 1:1 relationship in Alexa or the F3.

So in the case of Arri's Alev III sensor in the Alexa, it has a real resolution of 3392 x 2200 pixels which then downsized to 1920x1080. So by increasing the ratio of photosites relative to output resolution you are increasing the RGB resolution. It won't be perfectly RGB, but you can come incredibly close. Sony's F3 sensor is supposedly 3.43k so its taking a fairly similar route.

For RED, they are taking a similar approach but with a different implementation, by packing in more photosites you can compensate for a lack of RGB resolution in bayer. Red's 4k sensor resolution isn't really 4k, its closer to 3.2k, hence the existence of the Epic 5k.

Unlike, Arri and Sony, Red leaves most of the work up to the user to convert that into a final product. This introduces workflow issues but allows more creative freedom; pick your poison.

Sony and Arri seem to expect the final target resolution to be 2k rather then 4k. Hence, a ~3.5k sensor to be the right balance between resolution and the size of the photosites compared with the 5k of the Epic. So if your target resolution is 2k, then you benefit from larger photosites compared with the Epic.

The F3 will be capable of really close to true 4.4.4. Admittedly if you have the bucks and need to support that. Even without it the movies so far from the F3 have been really sharp, really low noise (63-64db SNR) and beautifully colored with extended dynamic range.

http://vimeo.com/16898584

http://vimeo.com/17392465

http://vimeo.com/16981467

[Halsu]

The Arri Alexa is a 3.5k sensor, the F3 is a 3.43k sensor (based on Phillip Johnstons' interview with Sony). What Arri & Sony are doing is down scaling a 3.4-3.5k sensor into a 1920x1080 output resolution.

Ok, cool. That's very good news, in that case the resulting image should be roughly in par with Scarlet resolution wise for 1080p output, assuming no need to i.e. reframe the shot, and 4:4:4 output from F3 (with 4:2:0 or 4:2:2, color resolution of F3 will be lower than with Scarlet).


Red's 4k sensor resolution isn't really 4k, its closer to 3.2k, hence the existence of the Epic 5k.

It is 4.5K* when you look at the photosite count - which is what all manufacturers use, be it megapixels in still cameras, or the 1920*1080 sensor in HV20. The full Red1 system (including a good enough lens) can resolve roughly 3.6K of resolution, just like HV20 likely could do something like 1.5K, assuming the lens is up to the task.

*(Actually 5120 (h) x 2700 (v), some of it for lookaround, with 4.5K max for the actual imaging area)


Unlike, Arri and Sony, Red leaves most of the work up to the user to convert that into a final product. This introduces workflow issues but allows more creative freedom; pick your poison.

Well, arri normally outputs log files AFAIK - useless without color correction. The Sony 4:4:4 output will be meant for log or lin too, not and out-of-the-box usable image... and in the other hand, i recall Scarlets and Epics have a 1080p RGB mode, in other words, you should be able to capture "baked" footage with them too, if so desired.


Sony and Arri seem to expect the final target resolution to be 2k rather then 4k. Hence, a ~3.5k sensor to be the right balance between resolution and the size of the photosites compared with the 5k of the Epic. So if your target resolution is 2k, then you benefit from larger photosites compared with the Epic.

That's a common misconception. Photosite size doesn't give a (noise etc) benefit at a given target resolution, photosite AREA does. In other words, the end result if using one big photosite, or the combined output of multiple smaller ones covering the same area is the same in practice, in the resulting image.


The F3 will be capable of really close to true 4.4.4. Admittedly if you have the bucks and need to support that. Even without it the movies so far from the F3 have been really sharp, really low noise (63-64db SNR) and beautifully colored with extended dynamic range.

Scarlet will be very close to true 4:4:4 too, at HD size. The SN ratio isn't known, but the Red one has 66dB. As the photosites are smaller, Scarlet will likely have a slightly lower S/N, maybe on par with F3. This is without the HDRI mode, which should add up to 6 stops more dynamic range on top of that. Of course, when it comes to color, when you shoot RAW, you can get pretty much any look you want...

...i'm talking about the 2/3" version here, the S35 version (Now Epic-S) has even better specs in all aspects.


http://vimeo.com/16898584

http://vimeo.com/17392465

http://vimeo.com/16981467

That first one was recorded in linear color space to a 10 bit recorder - as close to capturing RAW as F3 can do i assume. Looks pretty nice after color correction, though there are a few spots where the highlights are burnt out - it might be that the camera would have performed plenty well enough with a lower exposure and more boost in post, at least when recorded to an external HDCAM.

In the second, we again have a color corrected example. The exteriors burn to full white - This was corrected to a pretty high contrast, so hard to say how much of this is due to camera, how much due to post. It's likely though, that the camera was unable to keep the whole dynamic range in this scene.

In the last one, again some burnt out places, in the sky, in the building walls, the fire.

These do NOT show an exceptionally good handling of the dynamic range of the shots, but it's hard to say if the camera could have been set up to keep those highs intact, and still give usable results in the darker areas if exposed lower and compensated in post. It might, it might not.

Scarlet in the other hand should have been able to hold all that detail easily, if desired, especially with it's HDRI mode.

[Duke]

Show me three scarlet examples. :hv20-smilie24:

[Halsu]

Touché ;-)

[Halsu]

Scarlet in the hands of a civilian:

http://tonacitran.com/

[Duke]

The link you provided was to epic pictures and epic 3D. The link you were after is actually here. But its not shown actually working or even complete. No remote for controls for one thing.

http://tonacitran.com/red-scarlet-first-video/

Notable comments on compromises to keep costs down made in the clip:

1) No HD-SDI on the scarlet fixed.
2) CF card only, no SSD.
3) One ring to control all three; focus, iris and zoom on the fixed.

[1]

3) One ring to control all three; focus, iris and zoom on the fixed.

Ouch??

[1]

http://gizmodo.com/379530/red-scarlet-3k-hd-pocket-pro-camera-under-3000

[Halsu]

The link you provided was to epic pictures and epic 3D. The link you were after is actually here.

Thanks, must have changed - or i messed up as usual ;-)


But its not shown actually working or even complete. No remote for controls for one thing.

The redmote and the handle are alternatives, both have the same functions, only one of the two is needed. The camera is fully functional with that config, and as far as i know, it was working.


Notable comments on compromises to keep costs down made in the clip:

1) No HD-SDI on the scarlet fixed.
2) CF card only, no SSD.
3) One ring to control all three; focus, iris and zoom on the fixed.

1 and 2 were already known (in the specs), 3 was news, AFAIK. To my shooting style, one ring is enough 99.9% of the time (i don't change exposure mid-shot), but for some ENG folks etc. that's bad news. As far as i know, exposure and zoom can also be controlled with the wheel / rocker on redmote / handle, so it might not be as bad as it seems.

Of course, there's always the interchangeable lens version...

[1]

It's all so very revolutionary...
:hv20-smilie78:

[Duke]

3 was news, AFAIK. To my shooting style, one ring is enough 99.9% of the time (i don't change exposure mid-shot), but for some ENG folks etc. that's bad news. As far as i know, exposure and zoom can also be controlled with the wheel / rocker on redmote / handle, so it might not be as bad as it seems.

What I would worry about is whether you have change something in the menu in order to change the function of the ring. That would truly suck for anything fast paced.

[Duke]

http://gizmodo.com/379530/red-scarlet-3k-hd-pocket-pro-camera-under-3000

I loved that.

HD-SDI - Nope
4.8-inch LCD - Nope
under $3000 - Nope
set for early '09 - Nope

And its not misleading because its subject to change, LOL.

[Halsu]

What I would worry about is whether you have change something in the menu in order to change the function of the ring. That would truly suck for anything fast paced.

Well, once it's out we'll see how it works.

I.e. HVR-Z1 has an aperture control knob that's not in the lens. Using it was pretty OK once one got used to it. Controlling aperture with your right hand on the handle (DSLR style) isn't that bad either... in some cases, using the touch screen can also be handy (i.e. when you control the focus via the touch screen anyway).

[Halsu]

Epic ships.

http://reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=53099

...well, at least one of them did ;-)

[Duke]

Also, you'll need to be tethered to a 4:4:4 capable recorder to make use of that. One like these babies:

I found an used one, asking price $119,900.00:
...not cheap, eh?


Sony has started talking about the price of their newest HDCAM-SR recorders (in 4:4:4 RGB) they mentioned that pricing should be around £10K for the deck and £4K for the cards.

Not cheap but certainly affordable for a big production company and not $150-$120k. Also much smaller.

[Halsu]

Red has released a camera original clip shot with Scarlet 8X fixed lens:

http://reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?p=705667#post705667

Attached images are from a rough basic color correction i made from the camera original (levels / contrast curve only) - there was motion in every frame, so these have some motion blur, mind you. The shot was exposed for ISO 800, my adjustments make it closer to ISO 1200 or so. First one is the whole frame scaled to 800 pixel width. The second one is a 100%, pixel for pixel crop of the footage. The third and last one is a 100% pixel for pixel crop of the footage when scaled to 1920 pixel width, with photoshop's basic sharpen filter applied - this is how the footy will usually look in a real life project, more or less.

[Boz]

I'm not terribly impressed with Scarlet footage so far. Seems a bit noisy for ISO 800. Plus there's purple in the mid-tones. I know they're still working on it, so I'll give them the benefit of the doubt. We shall see.

[Halsu]

I'm not terribly impressed with Scarlet footage so far. Seems a bit noisy for ISO 800. Plus there's purple in the mid-tones. I know they're still working on it, so I'll give them the benefit of the doubt. We shall see.

To me the footage looks pretty much exactly the way i thought it would be - very nice at it too.

As far as noise goes, this looks rather clean to me, for a 2/3" camera at ISO800 +. Unlike most regular video cameras, there's no noise reduction done in-camera, that's left to be a decision made in post (in i.e. my examples, there's no noise reduction whatsoever). When it comes to color, i'm not too worried about that either: right now Redcine X sees everything as Epic footage, they haven't made the color profile for Scarlet's sensor yet, if i understood correctly.

But yeah, we shall see - it's bound to improve in the future for sure.

[Koppel]

Why is the footage just a few frames... does it overheat?

[Halsu]

Why is the footage just a few frames... does it overheat?

More likely they just want to keep the file size small.

[um3k]

The more footage they release, the more there is for people to over analyze and bitch about.

[1]

...it's bound to improve in the future for sure.

I agree, and considering they only had a few weeks in developing Scarlet...oh, wait! :)

Nah, it'll be awesome when they release it........in 2012.....

[Boz]

I agree, and considering they only had a few weeks in developing Scarlet...oh, wait! :)

Nah, it'll be awesome when they release it........in 2012.....

Heh, it may be released this year, but since Red owners get first dibs, I doubt few non-Red owners will get one till 2012.

As nice as it is, I can't afford $6K - $8K for my hobby. Hopefully it will put downward pressure on the rest of industry and we'll get the Canon large chip vid camera we all want at a decent price.

[Gillvane]

I've been looking at the requirements for a feature film. If Scarlet can release at $6K it really will be a game changer. What you want for a feature film release is at least 2k resolution. that gives plenty of latitude for a digital master, OR a film out. Scarlet will shoot at 3k resolution, which means actual cinema quality footage. Not just footage that looks good, but footage that actually meets the specs for a feature film release.

Right now, there is no camera that can shoot 2K for $6,000 dollars, or anywhere near that price.

Yea, the Hv40 footage looks good, the 5d Mark II looks even better than that. But that 5d with it's big sensor that shoots really pretty video, doesn't do 2k which is what you really need if you're going to release it on the big screen.

A real, honest to God 2K + camera that shoots actual feature film release quality video for under 10K is just unheard of. It's not dirt cheap, but at that price a serious indie with a very small budget can shoot a feature that is ready for the big screen. Pretty amazing if they can actually pull it off.

[Koppel]

We have to see resolution chart tests to say how much the RED Scarlet actually resolves.
I bet it makes a good FullHD image but is not much different from ARRI Alexa... we'll see.

By the way... you don't need 2K for a feature film: Black Swan http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0947798/technical

[1]

Pretty amazing if they can actually pull it off.

They've been pulling at it for YEARS already.....I'm surprised it hasn't fallen OFF yet!




Oh, me so naughty!

[Gillvane]

We have to see resolution chart tests to say how much the RED Scarlet actually resolves.
I bet it makes a good FullHD image but is not much different from ARRI Alexa... we'll see.

By the way... you don't need 2K for a feature film: Black Swan http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0947798/technical

It's primarily 16mm acquisition, blown up to 35mm, with a 2k digital intermediate. I don't know why they shot on 16. I imagine they had a decent budget, and 35mm would have probably only added a percent or two, if that much, to the total production cost.

[Boz]

I've been looking at the requirements for a feature film. If Scarlet can release at $6K it really will be a game changer. What you want for a feature film release is at least 2k resolution. that gives plenty of latitude for a digital master, OR a film out. Scarlet will shoot at 3k resolution, which means actual cinema quality footage. Not just footage that looks good, but footage that actually meets the specs for a feature film release.

What exactly are the "requirements for a feature film"? TONS of movies have been shot in 1080P and released theatrically. "Monsters" was shot on an EX3 through a 35mm adapter, which I would hazard a guess resolves closer to 720P in detail. "Blair Witch Project" was shot in SD on a crappy Hi-8 camcorder, and it found a distributor. So don't be fooled into thinking there's some magic specs you have to meet. The REAL trick is writing a great script, finding some good actors, and giving some solid direction to make a film people enjoy. Then if you're super lucky (and talented) maybe, just maybe you'll get your film distributed. Believe me, the resolution of the camera you shoot with is the least of your troubles. The best camera in the world will not fix a shitty script or terrible acting.

[Gillvane]

The best camera in the world will not fix a shitty script or terrible acting.

You'll get no argument from me on that point. However, I have seen some shitty scripts with terrible acting at the theater, and I'm sure you have too. I don't think on top of that you want shitty resolution too. that's just to much shitty, if you know what I mean.

I've had my eye on Monsters ever since the buzz started about that film. Obviously the director is very talented. Have you see the special effects work he's done in the past? It's pretty amazing.

There will be the rare Blair Witch, and paranormal activity from time to time, but I don't think they count as a general rule. How often can you do the "we found this footage in a video camera, so that's why it looks so shitty" routine? Seems to work for one film every decade or so. Not something you can count on.

[Boz]

I don't think on top of that you want shitty resolution too. that's just to much shitty, if you know what I mean.

Love this quote! Made me laugh. :)

Anyway, the bigger point was that Scarlet with it's 2.4K of res vs. a decent 1080P camera will get you there either way. I wish I could afford a Scarlet but since the price has essentially doubled (from $3K to $6K) since it's announcement it's no longer in my budgetary means. I just hope Scarlet's release applies more downward pressure on the industry in general. BTW, I hope you're not counting on one soon. My guess is even if they manage to get it out for Summer, Red owners get first dibs, so probably the 'unwashed masses' won't have a stab at it until near end of year at best, barring any production problems (Red has never mass produced a camera before).

Good luck on your feature!

[Gillvane]

BTW, I hope you're not counting on one soon. My guess is even if they manage to get it out for Summer, Red owners get first dibs, so probably the 'unwashed masses' won't have a stab at it until near end of year at best, barring any production problems (Red has never mass produced a camera before).

Good luck on your feature!

No, you can't count on a Red Scarlet 2/3 sensor release. No telling when that will be available to the general public. I'm seriously considering the ag af100. The footage looks very nice, it has XLR inputs for audio, and supposedly very little if any moire problems, and skew is at a minimum.

[Boz]

No, you can't count on a Red Scarlet 2/3 sensor release. No telling when that will be available to the general public. I'm seriously considering the ag af100. The footage looks very nice, it has XLR inputs for audio, and supposedly very little if any moire problems, and skew is at a minimum.

Yep, and the AF100 is several thousand $$ cheaper than the Scarlet will be too. Plus it has proper audio inputs, as you noted. I'm still hoping for something good from Canon this year. We shall see.

[Halsu]

Yep, and the AF100 is several thousand $$ cheaper than the Scarlet will be too. Plus it has proper audio inputs, as you noted. I'm still hoping for something good from Canon this year. We shall see.

We'll see when we know the final pricing for Scarlets. Remember that AF100 base price doesn't include batteries, memory cards, lenses etc... i wouldn't be too surprised if the price was pretty similar in a shooting condition.

[1]

i wouldn't be too surprised if the price was pretty similar...

...except, that by the time Scarlet is available (to us mere mortals) there will be an AF-700pro, a 5D MKVIII and a NEX-VG550.



:)

[Boz]

We'll see when we know the final pricing for Scarlets. Remember that AF100 base price doesn't include batteries, memory cards, lenses etc... i wouldn't be too surprised if the price was pretty similar in a shooting condition.

I would. But I guess it depends on the lenses really. If you have a few lenses, AF100 is probably a better deal. Don't forget, Scarlet doesn't come with any Mic, nor even XLR inputs out of the box. Not to mention it's 1 hr battery life, which means you need 4x the batteries to match AF100's 4hr battery life. In the end it's apples and oranges, really. Either one used right will make a great film! Unfortunately, I can't afford either of them. :/

[Boz]

...except, that by the time Scarlet is available (to us mere mortals) there will be an AF-700pro, a 5D MKVIII and a NEX-VG550.

Oh pish posh! You just need to "man up" and buy a Scarlet when it comes out. All others will be a "mistake". ;)

[Gillvane]

Over at Reduser, it says Scarlet released at the end of summer.

http://reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=54133

And then they caveat everything they say with a mantra of "subject to change".

Price being similar, I'd rather have a Scarlet 2/3 that shoots 3K resolution, than the Af100 with it's 4/3 format and 1080p.

[cgbier]

Didn't read the thread, but did they say end of summer what year?

[Gillvane]

Didn't read the thread, but did they say end of summer what year?

The year is subject to change.

[1]

The year is subject to change.

As are the century, the name, the specs, and the price...

[Boz]

Didn't read the thread, but did they say end of summer what year?

The year is subject to change.

As are the century, the name, the specs, and the price...

Lol. You guys crack me up. At least someone has a sense of humor about this stuff. :)

[Halsu]

Don't forget, Scarlet doesn't come with any Mic, nor even XLR inputs out of the box. I don't think we have concrete knowledge over the lack of built in mic - it might have a tiny one like the DSLR's, for cue audio purposes. Haven't heard a word on that. As far as the inputs go, even though they're 3.5mm, they're balanced with phantom power etc: no difference in audio quality to XLR's, just the robustness of the connectors.


Not to mention it's 1 hr battery life, which means you need 4x the batteries to match AF100's 4hr battery life.

I think it was Epic that had an 1 hr battery life, if we talk about the the side handle - different electronics, different power requirements. No concrete knowledge about Scarlet in that respect yet, AFAIK.

[Erik Bien]

it might have a tiny one like the DSLR's, for cue audio purposes.

If all you need is a scratch track, RED has showed a prototype "button" mic to plug into Scarlet's 3.5mm minijacks. Might have changed, but AFAIK a base Scarlet will come with two balanced audio inputs with phantom power, but without a microphone.

[Dr. Benway]

The pros are looking for...

Optics, son, optics.

[Boz]

I think it was Epic that had an 1 hr battery life, if we talk about the the side handle - different electronics, different power requirements. No concrete knowledge about Scarlet in that respect yet, AFAIK.

Sorry, you're wrong on this one. As late as the last CES Ted was showing off Scarlet:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/technology/blog/video/2011/jan/08/ces-2011-red-scarlet-camera

22 secs in "So these are the batteries... so that'll run it for about, give or take, an hour."

[cgbier]

1 hour battery time? Wow, compared to the 45 minutes you get out of the HVxx stock battery, that sure is an upgrade! I want one of these.

[Halsu]

Sorry, you're wrong on this one. As late as the last CES Ted was showing off Scarlet:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/technology/blog/video/2011/jan/08/ces-2011-red-scarlet-camera

22 secs in "So these are the batteries... so that'll run it for about, give or take, an hour."

Thanks for the correction - hadn't seen that video...

[Gillvane]

Everyone says a big announcement from Red is going to be released at NAB. Hope it's something about the Scarlet 2/3 being released. I don't care about the rest of the line up, which is way out of my price range.

[Boz]

Everyone says a big announcement from Red is going to be released at NAB. Hope it's something about the Scarlet 2/3 being released. I don't care about the rest of the line up, which is way out of my price range.

Could be. But when has Red ever been early with a release? If I had to guess, I would say you may be able to reserve one (with deposit) for pickup later in the year. It doesn't matter to me, I can't afford any of the Red gear.

[Duke]

Red has proven that announcements don't count.

There are other issues with the newest Red cameras. Besides, with the usual delays on the Epic, then filing orders for the Epic-S, and filing orders of current Red owners first its going to be a long time before and of us see a Scarlet. End of 2012, maybe.

[cgbier]

Doesn't the world end at the end of 2012? So we never gonna see it shipped?

[Dr. Benway]

There are other issues with the newest Red cameras. Besides...

So what will happen? Red'll crash and burn and people will be left with museum pieces?

[Erik Bien]

There are other issues with the newest Red cameras.

Such as?

I've been following all the threads I'm aware of at REDuser where EPICs are actually being used in the field

— like this one (http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=52652) and this one (http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=52649) and this one (http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=54814) and this one (http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=54151) and this one (http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=54955) —

and I don't recall reading about so much as a single on-set hiccup so far. What have you heard (and where have you heard it)?

[Gillvane]

I'm done with technology for now. I have an t2i and an h4n for sound. I can make a feature film with that gear, that will look nice. The rest is cinematography, story telling, and acting. If I can make something worthwhile with that gear, I'll worry about shooting on something more expensive. If I can't, then obviously I don't need better gear anyways, cause better looking crap isn't going to get me anywhere.

[Fade to inferno]

I'm done with technology for now. I have an t2i and an h4n for sound. I can make a feature film with that gear, that will look nice. The rest is cinematography, story telling, and acting. If I can make something worthwhile with that gear, I'll worry about shooting on something more expensive. If I can't, then obviously I don't need better gear anyways, cause better looking crap isn't going to get me anywhere.

good attitude gillivane.

[Duke]

and I don't recall reading about so much as a single on-set hiccup so far. What have you heard (and where have you heard it)?

Since Reduser and Scarletuser delete entire threads if they are perceived as being negative about a Red product then Reduser and Scarletuser are not always the best source of objective information. Unfortunately there are non-disclosure agreements too.

Its nothing horrendous, but there will be delays as things are sorted out.

[Gillvane]

Since Reduser and Scarletuser delete entire threads if they are perceived as being negative about a Red product then Reduser and Scarletuser are not always the best source of objective information. Unfortunately there are non-disclosure agreements too.

Its nothing horrendous, but there will be delays as things are sorted out.

I've been on the forums, and it's 100% only positive comments and threads allowed. That's fine, it's their website, their marketing tool, but that is the case.

You're also not allowed to discuss other cameras, even if it isn't to say anything negative about the Red. It's talk about Red, and Red only, and keep it positive.

[Dr. Benway]

I've been on the forums, and it's 100% only positive comments and threads allowed.

Thought control. What's your guess on weighting - Internet forums on average are 70/30 social-therapeutic/informative-technical?

[Gillvane]

Thought control. What's your guess on weighting - Internet forums on average are 70/30 social-therapeutic/informative-technical?

I'd say 70% mental masturbation, 30% informative.

Reduser for example has lots of esoteric debates about minute technical details. Stuff most people will never understand, like some nitty gritty aspect of how the sensor is constructed, and if that's the best method for production. It's not going to ever make any difference to the end user of the camera, but people seem to love to talk about that stuff.

[Koppel]

When another camera debate starts I point people to the The iPhone Fashion Shoot By Lee Morris: http://fstoppers.com/iphone/

This was made with iPhone... camera is not that important.

Everybody has a pencil... go write. A better typewriter doesn't help you.

[Noir]

When another camera debate starts I point people to the The iPhone Fashion Shoot By Lee Morris: http://fstoppers.com/iphone/

This was made with iPhone... camera is not that important.

Everybody has a pencil... go write. A better typewriter doesn't help you.

While I wholeheartedly agree with this sentiment, that iPhone shoot was probably accomplished with many thousands of dollars in lighting equipment in a controlled studio environment...and the photos still look sub-professional IMO, really noisy and over-processed.

But again, I agree with the sentiment. There's a lot more gear sluts than there are artists. It's a strange phenomenon to have some new $2,000+ dollar camera be released only to see youtube and vimeo flooded with innocuous videos of people's pets and home furniture and backyards set to Explosions in the Sky and Sigur Ros...

Kind of depressing actually.

[zephyrnoid]

There's a lot more gear sluts than there are artists.
I've been studying this phenomenon for a while. It's a byproduct of a consumer driven economy combined with dubbed down education and overly low taxation of the top 5%.
But is it all bad? When a manufacturer sells tons of gear to "Gear Sluts", that finances R&D, lowers prices (eventually) so that productive users can benefit as well.
If only "the artists' got the good gear... there really wouldn't be any good gear there in the first place.
I want to see RED make tons of money so that they can AFFORD to bring the cost of the elusive "best HD" camera down for me to buy.
Obviously, that is all being executed by companies other than RED.
You know, it's not just 'gear' that attracts the sluts, but also fashions, lifestyle accouterments etc.
I'm happy to do great work with low end gear, while my $ stays in the bank ;)

[darthpaully]

I'm happy to do great work with low end gear, while my $ stays in the bank
Me too, although I think I'm a little bit of a gear slut too. Definitely more of an artist, for sure- I'd say 70-30...

[Duke]

So Red's big NAB announcement is:

a) they are further delayed. No delivery dates announced.

b) no more announcements.

c) they already have another upgrade for the sensor on the Epics they haven't delivered.

[Halsu]

they already have another upgrade for the sensor on the Epics they haven't delivered.

Well, they have delivered around 500 Epics so far, they've stated. That's more units than i.e. Arri Alexa has sold, as far as i know.

In other news, they're also making a 4K player and projector, supposedly to be priced for the higher end home theater enthusiasts.

[Halsu]

Here's some Scarlet videos:

http://vimeo.com/22357485
http://vimeo.com/22413039
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UKQXM9UP7_g&hd=1

[Duke]

Well, they have delivered around 500 Epics so far, they've stated. That's more units than i.e. Arri Alexa has sold, as far as i know.

I didn't say they hadn't delivered any Epics, just that they have a sensor upgrade for the ones they haven't delivered. I don't think they even have tattoo program fully rolled out yet and they're having problems getting parts. (Not that its their fault, I'm just reporting the news.)

Since the Alexa is in a much higher price range (twice as high) I don't think sales numbers are comparable.

Show me a Scarlet I can buy or I'm selling my EX1 and buying an F3. :hv20-smilie84:

[Halsu]

I didn't say they hadn't delivered any Epics, just that they have a sensor upgrade for the ones they haven't delivered.

That upgrade is for all Epics, including the delivered ones, and the ones that will be delivered in the next two years or so. It's similar to what they did with Red One: two years after shipping the camera, they came up with a better sensor and instead of having to buy a whole new camera, one could replace just the sensor if one wanted to upgrade.


I don't think they even have tattoo program fully rolled out yet and they're having problems getting parts. (Not that its their fault, I'm just reporting the news.)

They're past Tattoo, they're shipping Epic-M now, which is not a "beta" but rather the final product.


Since the Alexa is in a much higher price range (twice as high) I don't think sales numbers are comparable.

As far as i know, both are around the $60 000 mark. Epic-M is a hand-machined, hand-assembled version of Epic, with some parts made in titanium instead of aluminum, and the price point is adjusted accordingly. The regular Epics will be cheaper of course, but that's not what they're shipping currently.

And beside the price point, both cameras compete for the same high end market where the price of the camera is rather irrelevant. Looks like Red is the winner there.


Show me a Scarlet I can buy or I'm selling my EX1 and buying an F3. :hv20-smilie84:

How much do you want for your EX1? I might be interested, i'm not obsessed with shallow DOF ;-)

[Joseph Hutson]

http://www.vimeo.com/22330393

[Erik Bien]

I understand you guys may not have permission to post any Scarlet footage you shot that day, but did you at least get to review your shots on a nice monitor? Any impressions you can share about that, ergonomic issues, battery life, etc? Inquiring minds wanna know!

[Joseph Hutson]

We did not review the footage on a proper monitor...only on our MacBook Pro's. However, we do have the footage and could look at it again if we had the calibrated monitor.

What we saw, we were all quite impressed.

For two weeks leading up to NAB, Ketch Rossi and I flew from Las Vegas to Miami, NYC, DC, Houston, Chicago, and SF for footage which would eventually go into the EPIC reel. Though we got used to the EPIC and its smaller form factor over the RED One, I totally got spoiled with the Scarlet when it arrived in San Francisco. The FIXED Scarlet seems to weigh less than the EPIC without a lens (though we never officially weighed the Scarlet).

The REDvolts were not made available when we used the Scarlet. We did not test how long the "Bebop 90" batteries lasted with the Scarlet, either.

The EPIC's UI is very nice. The FIXED Scarlet takes it to a whole new level (due to its electronic lens). There is so much stuff within the UI, it's not even funny. But like the iPhone, it's well thought out and easy to move around quickly without a manual.

http://s3.amazonaws.com/twitpic/photos/full/276230868.jpg?AWSAccessKeyId=AKIAJF3XCCKACR3QDMOA&Expires=1303206389&Signature=eRk1PtIMeS2p4DX%2BDBdVq1Oz%2BIA%3D
http://s3.amazonaws.com/twitpic/photos/full/276231997.jpg?AWSAccessKeyId=AKIAJF3XCCKACR3QDMOA&Expires=1303206662&Signature=C0Cvlqvqad8diK%2BUdYUuvUUlC2Q%3D
http://s3.amazonaws.com/twitpic/photos/full/276233283.jpg?AWSAccessKeyId=AKIAJF3XCCKACR3QDMOA&Expires=1303206691&Signature=VKt76C1A8%2Fs8M2u015k44zVXv2M%3D

[1]

Good to see Scarlet taking on shape. I'm still wanting to buy one when they are finally sold to mortals.



Epic-M is a hand-machined, hand-assembled version of Epic...

"Hand machined?"

REALLY? And what is that anyway? X/Y/Z coordinates adjusted manually?
No use of CNC machines?
Or maybe they chew out the solid metal blocks with their teeth - is that hand machined?
Or they only use files, hammers and hack saws and other hand tools?

JEEZ!!!


"Hand-assembled?"

As opposed to what? Machine assembled with robots?
I doubt RED will ever produce quantities that justify machine assembly (except for some CBs maybe,
but even I have considered that for some LED lights, so that shouldn't make a difference).


Please stick to facts not neat sounding buzz-words! :)

[Joseph Hutson]

The electronics on the inside of the EPIC-M's and current Scarlets (not for sale) are being pieced together like a puzzle by hand. In the meantime, a large plant is being built in Irvine, CA to manufacture all EPIC/Scarlets to meet demand. Sorry, no pictures are allowed to be taken inside to prove it though...

[1]

Apples and oranges; you guys need to be more precise with terminology.

It's not a matter of whether an assembly plant is being built or not.
In the example of a printed circuit board, there's definitely a logical difference between hand- and machine assembled.
However, hand-machined and hand-assembled means little and is not a very good way to describe what is going on,
when it comes to a complete machine/device/equipment.

From what I gather here, it seems more accurate to describe it as: the current models are not being manufactured and assembled as efficiently as
will be the case when a new assembly/production facility is operational.

Hand-machined! lol
Hand-assembled! lol

It's all these imprecise buzz-words that put me off RED in the first place....good to see nothing much has changed...

[Erik Bien]

Actually, Mal, I think the problem lies more with RED's seemingly haphazard methods for disseminating "official" information: I don't recall reading anything from an official RED source describing the EPIC-Ms (limited edition early models) as "hand machined," I think the M in the name simply stands for "machined," as opposed to the (presumably) cast bodies of "production" EPIC-Xs. Of course, those will probably also be "machined" to tap threaded holes, true-up mating surfaces and generally clean up the castings, but not hogged out of solid billet stock.

Trouble is, there's no "official" press release or web page I can link you to quickly confirm that or really any other "official" info on EPIC-M; it's scattered in bits and pieces across various REDuser posts by Jannard, Jared and others.

[1]

Fair enough.

[Halsu]

Fair enough.

I just tried to get through that as far as i know, the Epic-M's are built pretty much like prototypes, instead of being produced on a bigger scale production line.

Those "buzzwords" were mine, not Red's. Bad choice of words too, it seems. I guess this shows how much extra scrutiny the language gets, when talking about Red products - and also that Red easily gets blamed for information that didn't actually originate from Red itself.

[1]

I guess this shows how much...

Actually it goes to show how much you already speak the RED language fluently (even if it wasn't their wording this time). :):hv20-smilie77:

[Erik Bien]

"Hand machined?"

REALLY? And what is that anyway? X/Y/Z coordinates adjusted manually?
No use of CNC machines?

OT, but I formerly ran a 3-axis router that could make some pretty cool stuff. Check out what a state-of-the-art 5-axis machine can do these days:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RnIvhlKT7SY

[Halsu]

Actually it goes to show how much you already speak the RED language fluently (even if it wasn't their wording this time). :):hv20-smilie77:

Touché ;-)

@Erik: That's pretty darn impressive... wow.

[Koppel]

What really sucks is that years go by and we don't see any footage shot with the Scarlet.

[Erik Bien]

The innards of an Epic-M (http://www.wirelessgoodness.com/2011/05/03/reds-60k-epic-m-camera-gets-torn-down-by-the-fcc/), courtesy of the FCC.

[Erik Bien]

... and yet another announcement of an announcement (http://reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?62817-Tonight!).

[1]

Fantastic news!

[1]

Unbeatable!

[1]

Climactic, keep up the good work!

[1]

Kudos to RED!

[1]

Revolutionary!

[1]

Excellent!

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Dandy!

[cgbier]

Innovative way to circumvent the forum-language-nanny LOL

[Joseph Hutson]

It'd be weird to have an announcement at an Apple Keynote Address about an announcement to be made at the next Keynote address. But it'd be normal to have an announcement on Apple.com

REDuser.net is the only source of RED news, so it would make sense that an "announcement" would be made ON REDuser about the upcoming news release...which also happens to be on REDuser.

So, I'm not sure why an "announcement of an announcement" is supposed to have a negative connotation with it.

[1]

Default It'd be weird to have an announcement at an Apple Keynote Address about an announcement to be made at the next Keynote address. But it'd be normal to have an announcement on Apple.com REDuser.net is the only source of RED news, so it would make sense that an "announcement" would be made ON REDuser about the upcoming news release...which also happens to be on REDuser. So, I'm not sure why an "announcement of an announcement" is supposed to have a negative connotation with it.

I'll give you my opinion on your comments on May 12th, 2012, 11;50pm.
Stay tuned!

[Erik Bien]

Call it "sizzle fatigue." I mean, did they really have to promise a "tsunami," get 9,000 people online mashing F5 in unison and bring their own server to its knees to announce an upgrade to an existing piece of free software (http://reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?62838-REDCINE-X-Professional...)?

I'm still extremely impressed by RED's core technology products (I conned my best friend into buying one, remember), but even I've grown weary of feeling obligated to join a personality cult/in-group when all I really want is to look at a press release, a sales brochure, a spec sheet, some sample clips and maybe a price list. RED isn't a disruptive little upstart anymore, and I wish their corporate communications style would grow the hell up to reflect it.

[Dr. Benway]

Perhaps we should become shareholders.

[Joseph Hutson]

http://www.hv20.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=12994&d=1314863342

[1]

"Soon" in RED language means between 2 months and, well, NEVER.

Added: Wait, was Erik's post from Aug 31st regarding the announcement of an announcement to announce that Scarlet is going to be COMING SOON?

[Halsu]

"Soon" in RED language means between 2 months and, well, NEVER.

Added: Wait, was Erik's post from Aug 31st regarding the announcement of an announcement to announce that Scarlet is going to be COMING SOON?

"Soon" is relative ;-)

There's a new announcement of announcement from Red about Scarlet - the announcement will be the same day as Canon's announcement of announcement (Nov 3rd):

http://reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?63672-Scarlet-%28and-shipping%29-announcement-Nov.-3rd...

...on another post Jarred or Red wrote that Scarlet will ship "this year". Maybe we're getting close, finally. Also, the word is that Scarlet has "changed", again, whatever that means this time ;-)

Anyway, 3rd of november should be an interesting day...

[Halsu]

Anyway, 3rd of november should be an interesting day...

Scarlet will be available for order at 7 pm that day, it seems...

http://173.199.159.58/forum/showthread.php?64864-November-3rd-logistics.../page4

[cgbier]

Did they mention November 3 of what year?

[Dr. Benway]

Did they mention November 3 of what year?

Yes. They were used in the filming of this.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2YA6fqqtUx0

[Halsu]

:hv20-smilie84:

[BarteS]

Joke around, but the paper launch is impressive. It undercuts the C300 in price and beats it in specs. RED Epic sensor, 4K, 120fps at 1K, RAW, ...game changer.