Proposed Changes

[Daniel Rutter]

The Antman Film Festival proposed changes.

Current Moderator/Manager: Daniel Rutter
Co - Manager (not mod)/Judge: Bif

Proposed Rule Changes:

1) "Non Competitive Entries"
In the event that a the winner of the previous contest theme decides to enter the next theme, his/her entry will be deemed "non-competitive". This is to remove the chance and unfair advantage of the person winning again. The person may choose to still participate, and have his entry judged/criticized, but will not be eligable as a 'winning entry'.

2) "Guest judge"
The Festival Managers will both judge each entry fairly, but in the event of a stalemate, a guest judge will be called in. Everybody is encouraged to put their hand up for this, and nobody, except for festival entrants (Non-Competitive entrants exempted) will be ineligable to judge.
If you wish to be a guest judge, you must agree to judge fairly, and be precise in your criticism, without being direct. Comments such as "your entry sucked" will be removed. If you disliked the entry, be precise with what you disliked about it, and what made it bad. A true critic will share not just the good and bad, but ways to improve for the future.

3) "Theme Pool"
Rather than allow the the contest winner to choose the next theme, the manager chooses the theme from a pool of suggestions made by the public. Making it open genre, and not overly limiting. This would allow people to enter without risking their entries being classed "non competitive" (unless it is one of the judges who choose to enter).


Other suggestions are appreciated. Please note, there will be NO CHANGE TO THE TIME LIMIT for this contest. This is stay at TWO WEEKS, unless the manager deems special circumstance. Any mention of changing the time, or request, will be deleted.

Improving the amount of entries in this contest is our number one priority, but requesting rules to be bent will NOT change anything.

Your opinions are welcomed, but please be thorough. Don't just say "I don't agree" and leave. State your reasons why you think the rule changes will affect the contest, or state your reasons as to why your suggestion will improve the contest.

Once these rules are agreed upon, they will not be changed. You have 48 hours to make your suggestions.

You might also like to read some comments made by Bif, stating things that should be changed in this contest. It might pay for you to read them before posting.
http://www.hv20.com/showthread.php?8055-Forum-rules&p=358727&viewfull=1#post358727

Last of all, be kind. I'm not here to ruin the contest. :)

[HueyNRolf]

Back to my point on the other thread.

The contest relies on people participating and contributing. Growth can only occur if the community is willing and able to cooperate. If the community loses faith and confidence, it's game over.

I know I've had my chance and burnt the bridge, but FWIW, I always tried to seek the backing of the community when it came to changing things. Because without their support, there is no contest.

[AJUK]

Sorry Daniel, but all this talk of censorship and deleting posts has me a bit concerned. Also the idea of fixed judges instead of rotating/random judges. To be honest I though Koolpenguin always had a good idea with his public votes + random judges method.

I still say that two weeks is a very short timeframe for those of us with jobs and family commitments. I had to bust my hump for an entire weekend to get my entry finished, and I also had to interrupt a family trip to shoot anything at all. If there was even just an extra week of time for production it would make things so much easier for people in my position.

Of course there are plenty of people for whom two weeks is enough, students or retired folks like Bif, but as the aim is to get more entries for the competition, it really does seem like reducing the number of potential entries can only be a bad thing.

It's a shame, as the HD Shorts competition was what brought me to this forum in the first place, and Antman had a great idea with starting up a regular competition.

I hope things go well with your tenure as competition mod, and I also hope that you reconsider changing the rules in this manner. :(

[Daniel Rutter]

talk of censorship and deleting posts has me a bit concerned.
Censorship? Christ... do you people not read what I write? I never mentioned censoring ANYTHING. I'm just sick of seeing the same things discussed (such as the time limit), basically I'm saying... if it's been suggested in the past, and it's been disapproved, it's not gonna happen, so don't bother bringing it up.

Deleting posts is part of the moderators job. Keeping order, stopping arguments etc. If you want to be concerned about a moderator doing his job... then you're paranoid.

[Daniel Rutter]

Alrighty, restoring order here. I've removed mine and Huey's remarks, everyone else... feel free to share your suggestions.

[HueyNRolf]

everyone else... feel free to share your suggestions.

Yeah feel free to post anything you like, Daniel will delete it if he doesn't agree with you. Have fun.

[Daniel Rutter]

Yeah feel free to post anything you like, Daniel will delete it if he doesn't agree with you. Have fun
Restoring order Huey, trying to keep the thread on topic. If you have something you'd like to say to me personally... there's PMs.

[HueyNRolf]

OK, D'l. When are you launching the next contest?

I'm really looking forward.

[HueyNRolf]

If you have something you'd like to say to me personally... there's PMs.

No, but I do wish you'd read my post #2 again and at least give it some thought. Seriously mate, I've been around a long time and I have a bit more life experience than you do. Don't dismiss us old farts, we've seen a thing or two.

[AJUK]

Daniel you just did censor something, you removed some supposedly smart Alec remark Huey wrote.

Come on dude, its all been a bit heated around here lately, let's just get the new competition underway.

I already pm you some possible themes, but also maybe you have a theme already in mind? Just go with whatever theme you think will get the most entries.

I still hope you reconsider the timescales ;)

[HueyNRolf]

I agree, lets get the next one up!
Even if you want to stagger it to deadline after the Halloween contest. You could post it now, to give the community a head start on the planning.

Lets go!

[Daniel Rutter]

I will not be posting a new contest until changes are discussed, and decided on. Until then, hold your horses.

[HueyNRolf]

What changes do you want to discuss?
Why not list them here and get a round of ays and nays going.

[Daniel Rutter]

What changes do you want to discuss?
Why not list them here and get a round of ays and nays going.
How's about the two posted, plus any others that people want to get out in the open.

[Bob Sanders]

Daniel you just did censor something, you removed some supposedly smart Alec remark Huey wrote.He removed Hue's AND HIS.

[HueyNRolf]

OK, shall we start with a round of ays and nays on this:

1) "Non Competative Entries"
In the event that a the winner of the previous contest theme decides to enter the next theme, his/her entry will be deemed "non-competative". This is to remove the chance and unfair advantage of the person winning again. The person may choose to still participate, and have his entry judged/criticized, but will not be eligable as a 'winning entry'.

[HueyNRolf]

He removed Hue's AND HIS.

Well what a surprise!
Hello Bob. Nice to see you showing an interest. Are you going to enter a short? That would be cool.

[Bob Sanders]

Daniel....

I understand and agree with your point in that the chooser of the theme has an unfair advantage, but to disallow an entrant to run competitively (for what ever reason) in the next event simply disallows an entrant... period..... which may not be fair in itself. I would suggest maybe the rules be changed so that the entrants have no involvement in the final theme choice at all. This would allow all to enter but none to have an advantage. Maybe create a list of general themes, have people submit the ones they wish and you choose the theme out of a hat (so to speak).

[Bob Sanders]

Are you going to enter a short?

I work 2 jobs.... this weekend I have to shampoo the carpets in my house (and I have a lot of carpet!).... and next weekend I have to re-paint the trim on the house.

No... I don't think so.

[Daniel Rutter]

Actually Bob, I agree.

Get a pool of suggestions going, choose one out of the pool each week, and go from there. The only problem here is, many of the contestants believe that choosing the theme to be the prize.
Not sure where to go with this.

Would everyone prefer to lose the ability to have the winner choose the next theme, and remove all this foul air about non-competitive entries?

EDIT: Updated first post with an extra suggestion.


3) "Theme Pool"
Rather than allow the the contest winner to choose the next theme, the manager chooses the theme from a pool of suggestions made by the public. Making it open genre, and not overly limiting. This would allow people to enter without risking their entries being classed "non competitive" (unless it is one of the judges who choose to enter).

[HueyNRolf]

That's a reasonable compromise, Bob.
However, I don't think that choosing the theme is as big an advantage as some hold it up to be. Lets say I win the contest and have a plumb idea for my next short. I can label a theme on it, however these themes are very wide and someone could easily reinterpret the theme in an equally creative way. Plus, it still needs to be produced which is, arguably, where the real grunt takes place.

[Bob Sanders]

The only problem here is, many of the contestants believe that choosing the theme to be the prize. That right there sets up the unfair advantage..... and THAT is what needs to be changed. Maybe the prize can be a hearty pat-on-the-back or something similar... but an unfair advantage in the next run should be a no-no

[HueyNRolf]

Would everyone prefer to lose the ability to have the winner choose the next theme, and remove all this foul air about non-competitive entries?

Maybe the community was happy with it the way it was. Just invite a round of ays and nays, Dan'l

[Daniel Rutter]

Maybe the community was happy with it the way it was. Just invite a round of ays and nays, Dan'l
Oh, my reply wasn't a sarcastic one... it was quite serious. I just worded it like it was sarcasm.

Check the first post, I updated it with the extra suggestion.

[HueyNRolf]

this weekend I have to shampoo the carpets in my house (and I have a lot of carpet!)

All wooden floors here, Bob. Carpet is nice, but oh what a liability.

[Bob Sanders]

However, I don't think that choosing the theme is as big an advantage as some hold it up to be. Well... nobody can know for sure... including the judges. Maybe you have had a theme running around in your head for the last year.... then again maybe you haven't. The judges must know for sure that the whole thing is on an "out-of-the-blue" level from all involved.

I would say that the winner gets to be a judge in the next one is a better idea

[HueyNRolf]

Well... nobody can know for sure... including the judges. Maybe you have had a theme running around in your head for the last year.... then again maybe you haven't. The judges must know for sure that the whole thing is on an "out-of-the-blue" level from all involved.

The record for consecutive winners, so far, is two.

[Daniel Rutter]

I would say that the winner gets to be a judge in the next one is a better idea
This is the sort of suggestions I'd like to see.

The only problem with your suggestion Bob, is that it brings in that 'non-competitive entry' rule. Which, I know Huey... you don't understand, but some of us (I know I will) will probably shoot a film even though we won't win, just because it's fun. I shot an entry for a contest a few months back that never made it in time to be considered, but I still finished it. Why? Because it was fun, and because I like making films.

The whole point of the contest is to have fun. Not to be competitive and win major prizes. Your prize is this: You make a film, you accomplish something. You learn. You receive criticism, good-bad-constructive. You take that criticism, and you improve off it. I love criticism. I feed off criticism. Sure, when it's not written properly, I take it badly... but I enjoy it all.
If I go back to the original reasons Antman made this contest, what I've just said is basically what he said.

[HueyNRolf]

How about this.

The first judge to post, gets to decide the next theme. Here's an incentive to get the judges to post promptly and removes any doubt about the winner having an advantage. Of course, it removes the reward for the winner deciding the next theme.

Who knows?
Either way, you need the approval of the community because that's the market. Get that wrong and your first contest will flop.

[Bob Sanders]

The only problem with your suggestion Bob, is that it brings in that 'non-competitive entry' rule. Well yes... and no. Obviously if you're a judge... you can't be an entrant.... but let's say the winner gets to CHOOSE if they compete in the next one... or judges it. If they decide to judge then that automatically disqualifies them from entering.... and if that's the case then there would be no harm in allowing them the further prize of choosing the theme.

[HueyNRolf]

There's plenty of good suggestions here.

Time to jump in and give it a go.

Just remember, if you try to fight your market, you will fail.

Good luck, Dan'l.

[paperkut12]

I say keep it how it has always been. I've never seen a problem in the winner of the contest choosing the next theme or seeing it as an unfair advantage; if it was a case of something more being at stake (like a prize or some tangible reward) then that's something different. Since everyone gets great feedback it's a win/win, and I think having the winner choose the theme is just extra incentive to play to their strengths and enter again which is one more entry into an often short-handed contest.

That's even an extra challenge, coming up with an idea with a theme you didn't know ahead of time and making something worth while despite someone else coming up with the theme for the week. Whichever way the contest chooses to go I'll contribute, but I just dont see a need to change now. Just my two cannoli's.

I don't see anything that NEEDS changing. Nothing that's proposed in the post in gonna serve for more entries.

[Bif]

All wooden floors here, Bob. Carpet is nice, but oh what a liability.

Wood has a special charm all it's own. I've pulled up the carpet in most of my house and found nice hardwood floor underneath. Waxed and buffed up, I love it better than carpet.

Now my cat...

I do remember tatami and how much I liked that flooring in the houses I rented near Yokota AB and on Okinawa.

Huey, you need to enter something in these contests. I'd love to see something done in your area. There's gotta be some beautiful locations around Yokohama.

Bruce Foreman

[Bif]

Some good ideas and suggestions coming out here. But something else we might keep in mind.

Whatever rules are in effect, it really does not matter. I say this from personal experience, in the other site contest/challenges I've done, the rules were listed and that was that.

We concentrated on producing entries.

[Daniel Rutter]

If any of you guys have 5 minutes out of your day to spare, shooting a piece of dialog being spoken by you, straight into the camera (I'll send you the dialog, you send me the footage)... can you PM me?
I got an idea for a promo video ;)

[KingDucky]

I say keep it how it has always been. I've never seen a problem in the winner of the contest choosing the next theme or seeing it as an unfair advantage; if it was a case of something more being at stake (like a prize or some tangible reward) then that's something different. Since everyone gets great feedback it's a win/win, and I think having the winner choose the theme is just extra incentive to play to their strengths and enter again which is one more entry into an often short-handed contest.

I concur.

[paperkut12]

We concentrated on producing entries.

Exactly :D.

[paperkut12]

If any of you guys have 5 minutes out of your day to spare, shooting a piece of dialog being spoken by you, straight into the camera (I'll send you the dialog, you send me the footage)... can you PM me?
I got an idea for a promo video ;)

I would, but I hate looking at or hearing myself on camera :D.

[Fade to inferno]

I say keep it how it has always been. I've never seen a problem in the winner of the contest choosing the next theme or seeing it as an unfair advantage

.

Super agree. If it aint broke, don't fix it. Honestly, has anyone else ever said that they were displeased with the winner participating?

[Daniel Rutter]

Guys, you do realise that as it stands... it is broken. I see the current rules as the reason we have less entries. Mix that in with bugger all publicity, and we have a dying contest.

[paperkut12]

Guys, you do realise that as it stands... it is broken. I see the current rules as the reason we have less entries. Mix that in with bugger all publicity, and we have a dying contest.

Dude, what rules are restricting the amount of entries? It sure isn't the issue of the winning member picking the next theme.

[HueyNRolf]

It is woefully undersubscribed, for sure. You think that's because of the rules eh? Interesting conclusion.
Promotion is one way to get it into growth. What's your plan?
Oh and did you post the last winning entry in the footage forum?

[Daniel Rutter]

It is woefully undersubscribed, for sure. You think that's because of the rules eh? Interesting conclusion.
I think it's partly because of the rules. Having clear rules set out from the go would help people understand what it would take to get their entry in.

[HueyNRolf]

I don't understand what makes you think that. The rules seemed clear enough to me and don't recall anyone having trouble understanding them.

Promotion is one way to get it into growth. What's your plan?
Oh and did you post the last winning entry in the footage forum?

[Daniel Rutter]

Oh and did you post the last winning entry in the footage forum?
No.

Promotion is one way to get it into growth. What's your plan?
Already got it covered.

[HueyNRolf]

Oh you mean your promotion video?
How does that work?
I'm not snipping at you, just curious.

[Playing]

Here is my take on the winner choosing the next theme and participating:
All themes have been pretty open and I for one did not know what I was going to do before the start of the contest. I’d only worry about unfair advantage if the theme was something like: A Russian spy drives a metallic green Volvo toward a red grain store in Bulgaria…

[HueyNRolf]

A Russian spy drives a metallic green Volvo toward a red grain store in Bulgaria…

Genre: musical.

[Daniel Rutter]

Well guys, I'm going to try something. I'm going to incorporate idea number three for one contest, but not the next one (as AJUK has already submitted me his theme). I will test drive the change after the next contest is finished. I would just like to see if it changes anything. I think the least you guys could agree to, is letting it be tested. It's not too much to ask, right?

For those who wish to know, our next contest will be announced once Vishus' Halloween Contest is closer to being wrapped up (about a day or two before it's finished).

[HueyNRolf]

I had lunch with my friend Robbie today. Robbie is also into doing videos and I've been trying to talk him into submitting an entry to the contest for quite some time. Anyways, I told him all about the changes, hoping it would motivate him to get involved.

Me: Hey Robbie, you'll be pleased to hear that contest is under new management, maybe now you'll be interested in submitting an entry?

Robbie: Oh yeah, so what's new?

Me: The new management propose to make a raft of changes to make the contest more attractive, one of which is the non-competitve entry.

Robbie: The non-competitve entry, what's that?

Me: Oh that's where the winner calls the next theme and submits again, but his entry doesn't count, because it wouldn't be fair on the other entrants.

Robbie: So that means that I go to all the trouble of producing a movie in two weeks, and my entry is non-legit? That's waste of time isn't it?

Me: Don't be so negative, the new management doesn't approve of such terms as 'waste' and 'non-legit.' You have to appreciate the fact that, even though your entry doesn't count, you'll experience the spirit of the contest and receive valuable feedback about your work.

Robbie: Valuable feedback from whom?

Me: Another new attractive feature is that, unlike before, the two contest, sorry make that 'festival' organizers, Daniel Rutter and Bruce Foreman will preside as judges instead of a panel of three of your peers.

Robbie: So Daniel Rutter and Bruce Foreman are hotshot-short-film makers?

Me: errr not really, their work is so so at best, however they are highly-respected members of the HV20 forum.

Robbie: I'm not feeling this, sorry.

Me: Ah come on Robbie, I forgot to mention that if you even mention that you'd like more than two weeks to complete your project, your posts will be deleted!

Robbie: Why didn't you say, I'll sign up tomorrow.

[AJUK]

What if there is no theme? A completely open contest so anyone can enter what they like? That might be the best way to get maximum entries?
The themes are usually prett open anyway, so having a themeless comp might be a good way to kick start things?

[paperkut12]

I think having no theme kind of strays off from the original idea of the contest. I'm all tapped out on discussing what could be changed and what-not, so I'm just going to see how any rules, or anything else, effects the contest and hopefully things go well. Things are in Daniels hands now, he stepped up so I'll have hope in him to do things to benefit the contest :D.

[Playing]

*****Firewall*****

Adding to AJUK's idea of "No Theme":

Let’s have an "Everything Goes" competition at the end of the year.

****End of Firewall****

[paperkut12]

Playing, that's not a bad idea. Also, this probably was discussed before, but an end of the year award thing, like an hv20 oscars for the contest and have people vote on each category; could be fun!

[Timbit]

1) "Non Competitive Entries"
In the event that a the winner of the previous contest theme decides to enter the next theme, his/her entry will be deemed "non-competitive". This is to remove the chance and unfair advantage of the person winning again. The person may choose to still participate, and have his entry judged/criticized, but will not be eligable as a 'winning entry'.

I decided to vote "Aye" to this. I would be happy with a prize like the ribbons Vishus made. But then again, I'd be happy with ANY ribbon!! ;) And I must admit that I did have the advantage of a few hours on everyone during the time I sent the "Book" theme in and it was posted for everyone else to see.


3) "Theme Pool"
Rather than allow the the contest winner to choose the next theme, the manager chooses the theme from a pool of suggestions made by the public. Making it open genre, and not overly limiting. This would allow people to enter without risking their entries being classed "non competitive" (unless it is one of the judges who choose to enter).

I like this one better. :) The prize of a prompt ribbon would be enough for me (I'm trying not to hint too hard Mal. I know you're busy). And...


an end of the year award thing, like an hv20 oscars for the contest and have people vote on each category; could be fun!

Coupled with this, I really like the idea!

[Daniel Rutter]

Alright, so you guys agree to trying out the proposed changes, seeing how they affect the running of the contest?

AJUK, Bif and I have discussed it... and we've both decided that if you wish to enter the next contest (that idea you submitted to me) your entry will be considered 'competitive'. That theme will run just like previous themes. The contest after that, will be a trial.

For all those people who have not yet received their ribbons from previous wins, PM me please. I will take care of these ASAP.

Thank you all for understanding! :)

[Fade to inferno]

yay. looking forward to it!:hv20-smilie09:

[KingDucky]

What if there is no theme? A completely open contest so anyone can enter what they like? That might be the best way to get maximum entries?
The themes are usually prett open anyway, so having a themeless comp might be a good way to kick start things?

Too open. Maybe have it revolve around one item or object?

[Daniel Rutter]

Maybe have it revolve around one item or object?
That is one idea I will try for a contest. Rather than give a theme, I give you guys an item to include (or several items)... some of the film festivals over here have that sort of thing.

[krewcial]

gotta love how some people have been wasting more time arguing and bickering about this contest than they will actually put into filming and submitting something.

[Vishus]

I like Bob Sanders' idea: If you win, you get to choose the next theme and be a judge, OR you get to compete on an idea chosen from the pool.

I am fine with things staying at two weeks.

This is not personal again Daniel or Bruce, but I do NOT like the idea of the same two judges contest after contest. I know that they would do their best to remain objective, but we all have our personal preferences, and some of our filmmakers here just won't have the same tastes in films and film-styles as the judges, and could make for a potentially frustrating situation. I see no problem with them jumping in if judges don't step up for a round, but having them as perpetual judges raises a red flag for me.

[Daniel Rutter]

What about, we have two sets of two judges? One set for one week, and Bif and myself another week?

[HueyNRolf]

What about, we have two sets of two judges? One set for one week, and Bif and myself another week?

Here's a crazy idea, why didn't you just leave it alone?

The problem with the contest was lack of participation. I can't see anything in your proposal which addresses this problem.

It remains to be seen how your 'tight new rules' will attract more people to submit an entry. I suspect, few if not none. This proposal seems more to do with an inflation of the new contest, sorry festival, organizer's ego, than the good of the contest.

I'm just so over this whole thing, good luck!

[Timbit]

It remains to be seen how your new rules will attract more people to submit an entry.
Rules are good and necessary to every contest. Thinking of the contest rules on the DVinfo.net forum, they are strict, but yet they have a good amount of entrants.


What about, we have two sets of two judges?
That sounds better. :) I do have an issue with the winner judging the next contest, as my computer won't play back Vimeo properly, and my internet measures usage by the megabytes--which watching videos REALLY adds to it!

But if the option is there to either judge or enter again with the idea from the pool, that is better.

[Bif]

Increased participation in the contest: This will have a better chance to happen when the arguing completely goes away.

Who judges: When participation reaches a better level, the moderator/coordinator might want to look at the way it's done for the DVC challenge at dvinfo.net.

The contestants do the judging, each person submitting an entry is a judge, reviews all entries, and emails their 1st, 2nd, and 3rd place choices to the coordinator. An entrant MAY NOT vote for their own entry. This system has worked there for 3 years or a bit more without a single complaint.

What could be fairer?

For the UWOL challenge, the coordinator finds an "outside" film maker (usually with industry credentials) to judge one contest. The coordinator also reserves the right to function as an additional judge. This does not look to me to be feasable for us at this point but it did work for Meryem Ersoz for 2 years because in her work she had frequent contact with many industry professionals.

Daniel is doing the best he can to get our contest back on track and working again. I suggest we all just sit back and follow his lead for a few contest cycles. See how it goes.

It might be good for everyone who can to put their "energies" to work on an entry for Vishus' Halloween contest. I and my crew are about to "wrap up" our entry for DVC#19 at dvinfo.net, finished most of the shooting last night, and the extension of Vishus' contest deadline to Oct 30th gives us a good shot at starting on one for that one. My actors are already coming up with ideas and I'm having fun again.

(Marching to the editing bay...)

Bruce Foreman

[paperkut12]

gotta love how some people have been wasting more time arguing and bickering about this contest than they will actually put into filming and submitting something.

Well most of the people in here have at one time or another contributed a good amount to the contest...So yeah.

[krewcial]

grown up people would just go for the contest.

if you don't like the new rules, don't enter. there's plenty of contests elsewhere that will probably cater to your needs.

if you can live with the rules, take your camera and start shooting.

the most adamant critics on these type of posts are the same people who have a +2000 post count but rarely ever post footage.

why would anyone worry about those people ? they'll argue about the rules for weeks, but will never participate anyway.

bickering and arguing does more harm to this contest than just following the current rules and posting entries.

look at philipbloom's contests : he posts a theme, 3 or 4 rules, gives you 2 weeks to enter and that's it. If you don't like it, don't participate and don't argue just cos you got too much time on your hands.

[HueyNRolf]

Krewcial, since you allude to one having to earn one's right to opinion about the contest. What gives you this right? Your contributions are?

[Daniel Rutter]

What gives you this right? Your contributions are?
The same could be said for yourself, mate.

[HueyNRolf]

I think I have contributed. Want me to list them, MATE?

[Bob Sanders]

Krewcial, since you allude to one having to earn one's right to opinion about the contest. What gives you this right? Your contributions are?Please show me a rule that says one must "earn" the right????

What right do you have that others don't? You need to get a hold of that ego of yours there guy!

[Bob Sanders]

I'm just so over this whole thing, good luck! Obviously you're not and this all bothers you a great deal. In fact I would say it down right angers you..... I would also say...... HA HA!:hv20-smilie81:

[Timbit]

Alright guys! Cut it out! Remember what Erik, Lunchbox, and all the other mods have said about arguments???

There was a threat of banishment in the last warning, and the contests closed down.

I think krewcial has hit the nail on the head with the "If you don't like the rules, don't enter". Every contest I've seen has someone set the rules, and everyone else abides by them. Simple as that.

I'm eager for the next Antman's contest (providing I can think of something for Vishus' contest! :p).

[Daniel Rutter]

I think krewcial has hit the nail on the head with the "If you don't like the rules, don't enter". Every contest I've seen has someone set the rules, and everyone else abides by them. Simple as that.
Whilst I never put it in those words, I am basically saying the same thing. I'm saying to people, that all I want to do... is refresh this contest. If the changes made don't help the contest, then maybe (if the public decide) we'll change back to the old ways. This contest needs a fresh face, and a fresh new place to play.

And basically putting it: If you don't like it, don't play.


I think I have contributed.
I don't believe I've seen a single entry into this contest from you. You may consider running this contest, and making sure a few of them didn't fail "contributing"... but that doesn't give you a right to single people out and tell them "they have no right to an opinion". Considering you were preaching the same thing a few days ago to me, singling out people for the same thing.

So, mate, practice what you preach. Like it or not, you're not apart of this contest anymore. But if you wish to enter it, go ahead... it'll be nice to finally see something from you.

[HueyNRolf]

but that doesn't give you a right to single people out and tell them "they have no right to an opinion"

I am over this contest, but for the record, I think you missed the point. My comments were in response to Krewcial's assertion. Go back and read it again. If you have trouble with that, I'll be more than pleased to SPELL it out for you, Bob Sanders and anyone else (not very literate) who misunderstood it the first time.


Like it or not, you're not apart of this contest anymore.

Yeah, I know. Truth is, I will miss the contest. I used to enjoy it.

[KingDucky]

Stop Fighting.

[KingDucky]

If that doesn't do the trick, then I'm stumped.:hv20-smilie84:

[HueyNRolf]

Right on, Duck.

I was happy to wait and see how this 'fresh new contest' works out. But some people seem to enjoy sh!t stirring. I'll reserve judgement in silence. Do people like krewcial know how to keep their BIG MOUTHS shut too?

[Timbit]

If that doesn't do the trick, then I'm stumped.
Sure made me smile, Buddy. ;)

[Daniel Rutter]

But some people seem to enjoy sh!t stirring.
Ha. Hahahahaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa!
You make me laugh.

Anyway, moving on.

[cgbier]

Seems there is a contest already going on: A pi$$ing contest. Entertaining!

[paperkut12]

I say if no one has anything to contribute to the contest/thread then I say just stay out of the thread. Attracts people in the thread that wouldn't have been in here in the first place. Lets all get a long or at least not bicker.

[Playing]

New rule: No One Is Leaving.

Frankly I don't have a problem with arguments, but everybody, stop threatening to leave or tell others to put up or get out.

[KingDucky]

New rule: No One Is Leaving.

Frankly I don't have a problem with arguments, but everybody, stop threatening to leave or tell others to put up or get out.
+1

[Timbit]

New rule: No One Is Leaving.


+1
Add another +99 and that's me!

[Bif]

OK...The DVC19 contest is just ending, all entries are in, being reviewed and instructions for judging/voting will be issued tomorrow. I'm posting links to the threads that show how this contest runs without any arguing, complaining, or "fuss" of any kind. Been working this way for 3 years or more without a hitch.

Contest rules and theme announcement:
http://www.dvinfo.net/forum/dv-challenge-our-semi-regular-contest/486128-dvc-19-theme-go-go-go.html

Entries released for "viewing" and comments:
http://www.dvinfo.net/forum/dv-challenge-our-semi-regular-contest/486658-dvc-19-finalists.html

Note the final listed entry "Masked Assassin" is a "Non Competitive" entry by Lorinda Norton, the contest co-ordinator. When Dylan Couper, the one who started the DVC challenge 3 years ago, submits an entry he declares his "non competitive". This is these individuals way of "jumping in the pool" with the rest of us. They get to have the fun, too, and they also get valuable feedback from anyone who looks at the FEEDBACK section which follows.

Feedback Threads:
http://www.dvinfo.net/forum/dvc-feedback/

I put these links here so all could see how non controversial a contest can be run. We can have and maintain the same kind of atmosphere if we will just do it and not worry about the details. That's what we have a moderator/coordinator for. And in the 3 years + the DVC contest has run there has never been a complaint about the coordinator.

We "sign up", wait for the theme, create and submit an entry if we can.

I hope this gives us all the motivation to support our coordinator and give him a chance to make it work. We can have a heckuva lot of fun with it here.

Bruce Foreman

[Daniel Rutter]

Note the final listed entry "Masked Assassin" is a "Non Competitive" entry by Lorinda Norton, the contest co-ordinator. When Dylan Couper, the one who started the DVC challenge 3 years ago, submits an entry he declares his "non competitive". This is these individuals way of "jumping in the pool" with the rest of us. They get to have the fun, too, and they also get valuable feedback from anyone who looks at the FEEDBACK section which follows.
And this is how I will be entering the contests. I will be getting in the mix, but I won't allow myself to win.

[RockDonkey]

A-ha! Daniel has been made a moderator. Great news, I must consider a come-back.

May I perhaps say a word to inspire the winners to use a bit more creativity as hosting the next round. What I mean is: the theme could be a PAN
or DOLLY SHOT just as well. Or the theme could be to shoot a script that the last winner wrote. More creativity like this would bring out the fun out
a bit more. Surprises and wild ideas.

[KingDucky]

Dylan Couper

DYLAN!

He runs contests elsewhere, while the Hv20 aren't active.:hv20-smilie02:

(or it could be another Dylan).

[Daniel Rutter]

UPDATING THE PROPOSALS

Due to the turnout's of the last two contests, I'm calling out to regular entrants to share input.

The turnout of the last two contests (co-incidently, the two I've been in charge of) have been poor. Not poor quality, just poor quantity. Now, I've taken into consideration the changing of the time for each contest, I changed it from two weeks to three... thinking that would improve our turnout and maybe give more people time to perfect and improve their entries. As you all know, I was actively against this change when Shigeta and Huey were in charge... yet I felt that the people had a right to be tested, and so I changed the rule.

Now, while this was only ONE try at the change... it still says that a lot of people were 'pulling our legs'. And the time they were requesting, wasn't put to use as they said it would be. Turnout didn't change at all.

I'm willing to give this time change ONE LAST TRY, after the Christmas special is over, before I scrap it. I'd suggest, if you were one of those who requested the change... that you take notice, and stop procrastinating.

Prize pool
This is another factor. Enticing more entries by offering prizes for the winners. This would require many things, such as donations (things to be given as prizes, and cash to purchase such items) and someone to manage this effectively.
There was talk long ago of having an "end of year" contest, where all previous entries were voted against... and the one voted the winner would receive a prize of some sort. This could very well be done, but someone in the U.S (closer to the demographics) would need to handle prizes and such. In my situation, I cannot afford to post/ship prizes from Australia to places all over the world. Someone would need to donate their time (and effectively) their money to achieve this. It must be someone trustworthy.

What say you?

[Fade to inferno]

I do like the extra week given. The only reason I was not able to participate is the fact that I was working on a project already for school, plus work, plus girlfriend, plus finals. Obviously a lot to take on. but Finals are almost over so I maybe actually be able to enjoy myself and do a short film, and a good one since I have THREE weeks instead of TWO. So i do like this change.

Regarding The Prize. I would like a non-monetary valued prize. Not sure what it could be tho. Maybe picking the plotline or idea for the theme, that always got me going

[drapeama]

Regarding The Prize. I would like a non-monetary valued prize. Not sure what it could be tho.

Maybe the person in charge of the prize could arrange something with an ebay store like the DV City or something, so we could beneficiate of some sort of a deal, with a certain % off the regular price for the winner to buy the item he needs. That's just an idea i'm suggesting, and it wouldn't require anybody to invest or donate money. That solution would also give free advertising to the store.
Just let me know what you think guys!

[AJUK]

I think the plotline concept would work, but that particular plotline was perhaps a little too specific? A more general plotline for the next one might help... and a prize. ;)

[KingDucky]

We should have an actual prize. This gets more people.

We're also trying to attract outside people. We keep changing the rules based off what active users say..yet none of them enter?(cept Timmy-he enters alot :)).

If a monetary prize or an item doesn't work...then we revert to more advertisement. :hv20-smilie77:

[RockDonkey]

Needs to be rewarding somehow to finish. The response for them who make it is crucial.

About the 2 or 3 weeks I would suggest that the theme would be given in advance to give people more time to think about ideas,
but I won't because the stress of having little time gives you a creative kick as well.

In general I'd suggest endlessly creative solutions that makes it fun to go out and shoot.

[Daniel Rutter]

Well there are a few people saying yes and no to the prizes.

We all know how ridiculously hard it would be to set up something like this, and I don't want to set it up only to see it not being used... so here is what I'm proposing. February next year, I will be holding a "Best of 2010" contest, and I will personally supply the prize(s). Now, I don't have a lot of cash... so it won't be a lot. But it will be beneficial to the winner.

What do I want in return? I want to see MORE ENTRIES. Before I'd consider running the February special, I want to see more entries in the next contest(s). More people need to enter, and frankly... we need your help. So, tell your film making buddies... advertise at any other video forums you visit. Put the banner in your signature! Hell... I'll make a few banners so that you guys can use them.

We need dedicated people. Hands up, those who WANT to help out?

[KingDucky]

I'll tell some of mai frands. :)

[Bif]

We should have an actual prize. This gets more people.

It doesn't in the other contest venues. Where there is a prize it is appreciated by the winners, and maybe envied by those who came close but most enter for the experience of it.



We're also trying to attract outside people. We keep changing the rules based off what active users say..yet none of them enter?(cept Timmy-he enters alot :)).

Which shows rule changes don't attract new folks. Tim kind of proves my point about folks going for the experience of it. His finished entries have improved steadily. Rules changes flat don't affect what he does one way or another.



If a monetary prize or an item doesn't work...then we revert to more advertisement. :hv20-smilie77:

Constant promotion, reminders, and the CHALLENGE of it will do more than anything else. What we are working against is the natural tendency for us to not "put our ego on the line".

Bruce Foreman

[Bif]

Needs to be rewarding somehow to finish. The response for them who make it is crucial.

Finishing, actually doing something and having the "guts" to submit and put it "out there" is rewarding. For those very few who win that is a special thing in itself but all who finish something and submit "win" a contest with themselves.

I have one first place win where prizes were awarded, and nice ones, too. (A portable hard drive and a special 5x7" laminated white balance card) But the real "win" for me was finishing all 6 challenges in that venue that year (they did award a free UWOL tee shirt for that to all who finished all 6), the feedback I got on all, and the respect of the other participants all year long.

The prizes on the award were nice but the real reward on that one was presenting my actor with both the raw video and finished product that won. His horse (also featured in that entry with him) had to be "put down" just a few months ago due to a massive cancer, so that video I produced has long lasting memory significance for him.



About the 2 or 3 weeks I would suggest that the theme would be given in advance to give people more time to think about ideas,

That removes a big part of the "challenge" aspect. Look at other contest venues, the theme/topic is given on the start date. I know I keep pointing out "how it's done" in other contest/challenge venues, not because I feel we need to "imitate" them, but because it seems to have been working for them without the constant reaching for change that we go through here.

Typically only a small percentage of forum "lurkers" actually jump in and do something. We need to figure out a way to get more people paying attention.

Bruce Foreman

[KingDucky]

Which shows rule changes don't attract new folks.

Maybe not time changes. I honestly think some sort of reward could possibly get a few more people. We won't know till we try it.


Constant promotion, reminders, and the CHALLENGE of it will do more than anything else. What we are working against is the natural tendency for us to not "put our ego on the line".

We definitely need that no matter what.

[drapeama]

I would propose, that we (mods) take theme suggestions via PMs and list them (we could add the new ones at the end of the previous PM and so on), so when we end a round, we can start the next one already.
Once the next is started, we have a couple days/weeks to watch, criticize and post our reviews of the shorts films.
So that way, one could suggest a theme but would never know when that theme will be released. I think it would be fair enough, allowing people to suggest themes that they'd like to work on while giving us a chance to move on quicker from a contest to another.

What do you think AJUK & Vishus?...and folks!?

[Vishus]

I like that people are able to see and discuss the proposed topics. So maybe a mix of the old and new? We keep it so that people can see the potential topics, but then we discuss them in PM in advance so that we go live with the new contest as soon as the other one ends?

[drapeama]

I like that people are able to see and discuss the proposed topics. So maybe a mix of the old and new? We keep it so that people can see the potential topics, but then we discuss them in PM in advance so that we go live with the new contest as soon as the other one ends?

Maybe a specific thread specifically for suggestions, suggestions that we could always edit back when the theme's done (like red highlight or something).
Then we pick up one from all these and we start the next round at the end of the previous one. Sounds like something good.

Edit: Daniel already created that thread (http://www.hv20.com/showthread.php?39725-Antman-s-short-film-contest-theme-suggestions-thread)for suggestions. Maybe we could have a separate sticky with the suggestions listed, and checked when done?