Understanding the Advantages of DSLR

[jrod81]

Hey guys,
So the way I educate myself is to ask questions on forums that I would be too embarrassed to ask someone in a classroom or a store. As many of you might have noticed I have been toggling between the DSLR route and the 35mm DOF adapter route. I have bought and sold 2 Letus Extreme Adapters strictly because I changed my mind once they were in my hands. So, before doing this whole thing again, I want to make sure that I understand the advantages of going the DSLR route.
First I understand that I basically get a 35mm adapter straight out of the box when i buy the DSLR. That makes it seem that it would be a cheaper investment than buying a camcorder (prosumer or consumer) plus a DOF adapter. But by the time you buy a rig for the camera and figure out audio options, there are certainly some cost to include.
However, putting the focus on the camera itself. Do I understand correctly that using the 7D or 5D or GH1 (or any of the others that will be hitting the market) is that I will have a larger sensor than with the prosumer cameras? I am a bit confused and need some guidance of understanding when it comes to comparing these sensors of a camcorder vs. DSLR.
thanks for the help
jared

[spideralex90]

DSLR sensors are much larger than camcorder sensors, thus the need of a 35mm adaptor is gone becuase the larger sensor allows for shallower depth of field than what a 1/3 inch or so sensor can give. there are pictures somewhere that compare a 1/3" sensor size to 35mm, you'll notice it's quite large. Now the 5D is a full frame camera meaning it's equivelant to a real 35mm film camera, the 7D has a slightly smaller sensor and is closer to the super35 frame size often used in movies. That being said you can argue that the 5D will give you a larger amount of detail, but the video functions of the 7D outweigh the slight loss in detail to me. The only big problem i have with DSLR video stuff is that Jello is generally worse on them. However the HV series and such have Jello problems too. The D90 is a great example of how bad jello can be. The 5D handles it alright and the 7D does the best job of the three.

In my opinion, you should buy a 7D with a nice shoulder mount rig and a good audio setup. but thats just me.

Hope this helps.

[jrod81]

thanks for the polite reply... i was a bit nervous i was setting myself up for ridicule. that is what i thought on the sensors and just needed someone else to say it to verify it to myself.
the 7d really has to be the choice for me for price if nothing else, but i have to figure out what else i need to buy to go along with it... i am doing some audio research right now actually and seeing that it is going to be quite an issue with these cameras.

[jrod81]

and just to add to the question of sensor size...
i realize this helps with low light and helps with shallow DOF right? that is plenty to make me a believer but is there anything else that comes with the larger sensor size?

[spideralex90]

Increased detail and color reproduction i believe. But i'm not too sure. All i know is that generally the larger the sensor the better.

Oh and for audio, you could look at a Zoom H4n and a good shotgun mic to go with it. Combined it'll be anywhere between 400-1000, depending on the shotgun mic. the zoom is like 2-3 hundred depending on where you get it. Zoom's mics are really good for ambient audio and shotguns are good for dialogue.

[jrod81]

the Zoom H4n (which i watched the info video of on their website) has xlr inputs? on the website it looked like it just picked up on audio with the built in device... but are there xlr inputs on the other end of it for the boom and/or lav to go in?

[Marshallator]

It does indeed have xlr inputs, two of them to be exact. It also supplies phantom power which some xlr shotgun mics require.

[spideralex90]

It does have XLR but they seem to be different ends than i've seen before, unless i'm look at it wrong it seems to be different from the 3 hole port i'm used to. Someone correct me if i'm wrong or explain what's going on better.

[zephyrnoid]

Fabulous post! Perfectly put. Indeed, on larger sensor arrays as you will see on exotica like RED, the DOF can be shaved down to a very short distance allowing for some very dramatic bokeh.



DSLR sensors are much larger than camcorder sensors, thus the need of a 35mm adaptor is gone becuase the larger sensor allows for shallower depth of field than what a 1/3 inch or so sensor can give. there are pictures somewhere that compare a 1/3" sensor size to 35mm, you'll notice it's quite large. Now the 5D is a full frame camera meaning it's equivelant to a real 35mm film camera, the 7D has a slightly smaller sensor and is closer to the super35 frame size often used in movies. That being said you can argue that the 5D will give you a larger amount of detail, but the video functions of the 7D outweigh the slight loss in detail to me. The only big problem i have with DSLR video stuff is that Jello is generally worse on them. However the HV series and such have Jello problems too. The D90 is a great example of how bad jello can be. The 5D handles it alright and the 7D does the best job of the three.

In my opinion, you should buy a 7D with a nice shoulder mount rig and a good audio setup. but thats just me.

Hope this helps.

[zephyrnoid]

It does have XLR but they seem to be different ends than i've seen before, unless i'm look at it wrong it seems to be different from the 3 hole port i'm used to. Someone correct me if i'm wrong or explain what's going on better.

Your observation is correct, it is a different flavor of 3-pin xlr, one that also accepts a Phono connector for line input ! the plastic 'shield' is what you are seeing,but beneath it is a 3 pin XLR F surrounding a Phono connection. So you can plug :
2X XLR or 2X Phono or 1X XLR + 1 Phono. all this allows the recorder to capture audio from a couple of sources such as a mic plus an instrument or a sound board plus a mic or a sound board plus an instrument. You just have one limitation - 4 channels per session. But with it's mixing capabilities, you could theoretically record a whole band with individual mics but mixing down takes over and over again. There are plenty of tutorials on how to do this.
What a great product the H4N is!

[spideralex90]

Your observation is correct, it is a different flavor of 3-pin xlr, one that also accepts a Phono connector for line input ! the plastic 'shield' is what you are seeing,but beneath it is a 3 pin XLR F surrounding a Phono connection. So you can plug :
2X XLR or 2X Phono or 1X XLR + 1 Phono. all this allows the recorder to capture audio from a couple of sources such as a mic plus an instrument or a sound board plus a mic or a sound board plus an instrument. You just have one limitation - 4 channels per session. But with it's mixing capabilities, you could theoretically record a whole band with individual mics but mixing down takes over and over again. There are plenty of tutorials on how to do this.
What a great product the H4N is!

Thanks for clearing that up for me. :hv20-smilie77:

[HDJedi]

This is helpful for me.
So, with the arrival of the 7D, why would people buy an HV40?
It would primarily be for budgeting reasons then i assume.

My concern with an HDSLR is what about the user-experience
between the DSLR route compared to the Camcorder?
Ease of use, handling, and things like that. Is it that much easier
to work with a camcorder compared to an HDSLR?

[spideralex90]

This is helpful for me.
So, with the arrival of the 7D, why would people buy an HV40?
It would primarily be for budgeting reasons then i assume.

My concern with an HDSLR is what about the user-experience
between the DSLR route compared to the Camcorder?
Ease of use, handling, and things like that. Is it that much easier
to work with a camcorder compared to an HDSLR?

A typical consumer would be in the market for an HV40 because it's simple to use and has some cool features. but a serious videographer or budding filmmaker really should consider something more this day and age. I plan on upgrading from my HV20 to something bigger at some point, when the funds are there.

[HDJedi]

A typical consumer would be in the market for an HV40 because it's simple to use and has some cool features. but a serious videographer or budding filmmaker really should consider something more this day and age. I plan on upgrading from my HV20 to something bigger at some point, when the funds are there.

It seems like 1/2 the people have the mindset to sell their HV cams for the 7D rather then to keep it as a 'B' cam. Wouldn't a more serious videographer have to have a 2nd 'B' cam? I don't know if the 2 would mix well but I would guess it should. I'm only concerned with user-friendliness and getting accustomed to how 'easy' it would be to use a 7D in my projects.

[neovega]

I think the market, on both sides of the checkout line, seriously underestimates the power of DSLR cameras with video.

As a new owner of a Nikon d5000, and a longtime owner of a Canon HV20, I can say without a doubt that your HVXX is still a better "camcorder". Now, that being said, I am seriously impressed with this little consumer DSLR's performance, and downright bulldozed by what the 7D and 5D Mk2 can produce. For me, it's the time limitations that I find to be the worst aspect of DSLR video, which is why my d5000 will always be 2nd unit to my HV20. They both produce excellent images that go well together if one is careful with what they're shooting and knows how to trick the camera into giving them what they want. And nothing beats the low-light performance of an APS-X or FF sensor coupled with a fast prime lens. Yes, the tech is in it's infancy to some degree, and I do find the lack of exposure controls annoying on the d5000. Nothing some firmware updates or a well lit, controlled subject can't fix. With some practical know-how, you can get great results.

Nothing out there is perfect, never will be. You just have to make it work for you. But once DSLRs can get past FAT32's file size limitations (and please, correct me if they already have), and the read-speeds of the sensors get faster, we may very well see the end of the prosumer camcorder.


Wait, what was this thread about? Back in my hole? Gotcha...

[tkmslee]

Just my 0.02 here. I have worked with a several camcorders and adapters in the past. I am very specific as to what I want to get out of my camera (shallow dof, good range, total manual control). I decided to try out the 5D to see how it compared. Well, I just sold my XHA1 to get the 7D...I have never looked back. You get full manual control. There are limitations to how fast you can move the camera and what you can do with sound...but work inside those limitations and you get the perfect camera (IMHO). SNL used the 5D and the 7D to shoot this:

http://www.nbc.com/saturday-night-live/video/clips/bladdivan/1161213/

[SteelTech6]

Anyone wanting answers to all of the questions that have been posted here and then some, needs to check out Philip Bloom's Blog (http://www.philipbloom.co.uk). He's a great source of information for VDSLR shooters. I had the pleasure of participating on the shoot when he was filming his 7D Instructional DVD for Fstop Academy in Sarasota 3 weeks ago. My girlfriend who is also a Film Student was his talent for that segment.

We are lucky to live in this day and age of technology, and this is only the beginning of what will come. Shooting video with a DSLR poses many challenges. Financial and otherwise. But the biggest factor for me to use these cameras is the low light capability that you can achieve with fast lenses. With my HV20 I often have to use a 1000w light along with another 500w equiv. fluorescent light in order to get adequate video at a large event.

One thing everyone should seriously consider is how much you will have to invest in support equipment. The biggest cost of these cameras isn't even the cameras themselves. It's the glass. In order to have adequate coverage at the most popular focal lengths you can easily end up spending a couple grand.

The nice thing about a dedicated camcorder is the fact that if you want a relatively wide focal range plus telephoto, it's all built in for a very low cost. That has been the biggest change for me. With my VDSLR I had to buy a 70-200mm lens to get any sort of telephoto out of the camera. You'll need another lens for wide, and all of them should have large apertures in order for you to appreciate the depth of field and low light capabilities.

DSLRs for video - They aren't for everyone, but my opinion is if you were going to invest in a 35mm adapter, you would have to buy lenses anyway. And a field recorder at the very least should be something that you would already be seriously considering regardless if you wanted to use your equipment professionally.

Sorry for the long post everyone, these are just topics that I'm really passionate about. I have a T1i that I've been using for months now - great camera. I've used a borrowed 7D for the last two days and it will definitely be my next purchase.

-Michael Rivera

[jrod81]

the suggested lenses on a dof adapter are: 28mm, 50mm, and 135mm primes...
I am just curious if the lens that comes with the 7D should be scrapped and the money saved to get primes only? If so, could someone tell me what to get to match those recommended numbers for the DOF adapter? As I understand, since it is a not a full frame sensor in the 7D, the 28mm 50mm and 135mm would not actually be those numbers?
thanks

[Bif]

The 7D is sold "body only" or with one of 2 "kit" lenses. I have a T1i with it's "kit" 18-55mm lens (OK but not special quality), a 55-250mm EF-S zoom, and a 50mm F1.8 EF lens left over from early EOS film cameras. Just got in a 24mm F2.8 EF prime to use with the 7D when it gets here Monday.

Everyone is going to have a different budget and make different choices but mine were the 24mm and 50mm primes and I will use the two zooms as necessary.

The 24mm will have a full frame equivalent of 39mm which will seem close to the 35mm lens I used to work with for a lot of documentary stuff in the mid 70's (worked in an air force photo lab and the issued kit was a Nikon F2 with 35mm, 50mm, and 135mm lenses). Good for a kind of "wide normal" perspective.

The 50mm F1.8 is almost perfect "Portrait" perspective being equivalent to full frame 80mm.

You may or may not want to "match" what is supposedly recommended for a DOF adapter, to get some idea of how the APS-C size sensor relates to lenses remember there is a 1.6X factor to apply to the actual focal length of the lens. This focal length does not change with sensor size but the lenses field of view will change. Multiplying the focal length by 1.6 gives us a relative equivalent of what we would use in full frame to get the same effect.

The T1i "kit" 18-55mm would be the equivalent of using a 28.8 (or 29)mm to 88mm on full frame. So if you have a 17mm prime it would have the same field of view on the 7D as a 28mm would on full frame.

So you will need to assess what your usage will likely be and plan your lens purchases accordingly.

So for me for most fairly close in work, general purpose recording of people, actors, and scenes the 24mm will work. If I need more wide view for interiors I'll have to use the wide end of the 18-55. For selective focus with shallow DOF where I can back off a tad it will be the 50mm F1.8. And for anything requiring a long reach the 55-250 should do it (88-400 equiv).

Long post, but I hope it helps.