Butter smooth slow motion [from Eugenia's blog]

[dAb]

Hi all. I'm following the vegas (http://eugenia.gnomefiles.org/2009/02/09/butter-smooth-slow-motion/) tutorial to create my first slow-mo video but I'm a bit confused.

In step 4 "in the final edit prefer “interpolation” as the de-interlacing algorithm"

..what? Weren't we supposed do deinterlace in step 1?

[Eugenia Loli-Queru]

Yes for the specific clip. But at that point, you are inside another project, along other, non-slowed motion footage. And for that footage, do them the favor and use interpolation. It won't affect the already progressive slow-motion bit of footage you got in the previous steps.

[dAb]

Thanks for the clarification. Any further advice for the best slow-mo method? I'm quite satisfied by velocity envelopes but I'm not sure why I need them if I can alter the playback rate as well.

[Rambo]

I use Eugenia's excellent Slow mo technique a lot and the velocity envelopes i use to control the speed of "lead in" clips like fast going to slow as you often see on sports replays or promo clips. There are many other uses as well.

Cheers Rambo

[dAb]

Sorry, what I meant was "why do I need velocity envelopes if I can alter the playback rate directly from the clip properties?" Does this have the same effect?

Also, I don't get why vegas keeps telling me that the file I've rendered in step 2 is interlaced while the one in step 1 is not.

[Eugenia Loli-Queru]

You probably messed up something. The step 1 file, the original file, MUST be interlaced btw.

[dAb]

You probably messed up something. The step 1 file, the original file, MUST be interlaced btw.

It is. Here's what I'm doing with some 50i PAL footage:


STEP 1

I create a new project then I go to Project properties --> Match media, and this is what I get:

http://img33.imageshack.us/img33/6702/slowmostep1projectprope.jpg

I set Field order to "None", Frame rate to "50 (double PAL)" and leave deinterlace method to "interpolate fields".


STEP 2

I load the file in the timeline. These are the media properties as recognized by Vegas:

http://img200.imageshack.us/img200/3927/slowmostep1mediapropert.jpg

I don't touch anything in the media properties and I enable "smart resample" in the clip properties. I render it out as slowmotion1.avi with the following template :

http://img41.imageshack.us/img41/8885/slowmostep1rendertempla.jpg


STEP 3

I create a new project, I go to Project properties and this time I use the match media function on the previously rendered slowmotion1.avi file. Here's what I get [is it right to set deinterlace method to "none" in this step?]:

http://img14.imageshack.us/img14/7494/slowmostep2projectprope.jpg

I load slowmotion1.avi in the timeline and I add a 25% velocity envelope. I also stretch the clip 4 times the original length. Here's the media properties for slowmotion1.avi:

http://img29.imageshack.us/img29/1784/slowmostep2mediapropert.jpg

I disable resampling from the clip properties, then I render out slowmotion2.avi with the following template:

http://img13.imageshack.us/img13/9648/slowmostep2rendertempla.jpg

This time it takes a bunch of seconds and vegas tells me "no recompression required" or something like that.


STEP 4

I create a new project with the following settings:

http://img269.imageshack.us/img269/7525/slowmofinalstepprojectp.jpg

This time if I use the match media function on slowmotion2.avi, Vegas sets Field order to Upper field, so I guess it recognise the file as interlaced. In this step I'm leaving it to None and I set deinterlace method to none as well. Here's the media properties for slowmotion2.avi:

http://img36.imageshack.us/img36/882/slowmofinalstepmediapro.jpg

Again I set field order to None in the media properties and disable resampling in the clip properties. I render it out with the following template:

http://img11.imageshack.us/img11/8821/slowmofinalsteprenderte.jpg

And what I get is far from being smooth. What am I doing wrong?

[i]edit: in the previous post I meant the step 3 file [slowmotion2.avi], not the step 2 one

[Rambo]

Everything looks fine to me, except the velocity envelope part, i don't use that to slow down the clip. I hold the Control key and stretch the clip on the time line with the cursor to the required slow down rate. Twice the time = .5 slowdown, three times the time = .333 slow down. Holding the control key as you drag keeps all the frames. You can also set the slow down in the media properties. Best to access media properties by right clicking on the clip on the time line and selecting properties from there, that way the video event window is displayed with the playback, under-sample rate and re-sample options.

I don't use velocity envelopes on the "butter smooth clip", i prefer the click and drag, this might be why you are having problems.

A .333 rate is super smooth for me, and i some times bring that clip back into Vegas again for another .5 rate as an extra step. Still butter smooth.
See here Butter smooth example (http://rambos-locker.blogspot.com/2009/02/frazer-coast-sm-ladies-nail-nats-video.html) The slow mo sequence follows the normal speed in the short clip.

How much are you slowing it down by in Velocity envelopes?

CHeers Rambo

[Eugenia Loli-Queru]

>I load slowmotion1.avi in the timeline and I add a 25% velocity envelope. I also stretch the clip 4 times the original length.

I have not used this method with velocity envelopes, only with the properties playback rate option.

>This time if I use the match media function on slowmotion2.avi, Vegas sets Field order to Upper field, so I guess it recognise the file as interlaced.

This is not correct. You need to change the file as progressive. The bug is Vegas', for creating AVI files that don't have a field for progressiveness. You need to change all AVI files in your media to progressive, and then click their save button in that dialog. http://techblog.cineform.com/?p=1407

>This time it takes a bunch of seconds and vegas tells me "no recompression required" or something like that.

This is not correct. You just changed the playback rate of the file. Therefore, it has to re-encode.

>And what I get is far from being smooth. What am I doing wrong?

See above. Also, have you actually tried to EXPORT that slow-mo effort to a small ipod sized video to make sure that the FINAL is or is not smooth? Or are you just talking about the preview screen here?

[dAb]

Whoa there, are you telling me I've been banging my head on the wall all day because of a vegas bug? : /

Anyway I'll retry and see what I can do [and yes, I've checked the result on the exported video, not in the preview screen].

Thank you both for your time, very appreciated.

[Rambo]

Whoa there, are you telling me I've been banging my head on the wall all day because of a vegas bug? : /


" This time if I use the match media function on slowmotion2.avi, Vegas sets Field order to Upper field, so I guess it recognise the file as interlaced. In this step I'm leaving it to None and I set deinterlace method to none as well. Here's the media properties for slowmotion2.avi:
"

From your statement above i deduced you were changing to progressive (none) on all your steps even though your screen caps say otherwise.

I've also had good success with these software's as well for SteadyMotion, SlowMotion and PerfectMotion. They only work for DV size files not HDV though, but still useful if you down convert and then use.

http://www.goodervideo.com (http://www.goodervideo.com/)

Cheers Rambo

[Eugenia Loli-Queru]

>Whoa there, are you telling me I've been banging my head on the wall all day because of a vegas bug? : /

Maybe, but as I said, the remedy is easy. I included a url on how to fix it.

[dAb]

Did everything as you suggested, these are the results from some footage shot at 50i - F1.8 - 1/1000

Original footage (http://www.wikiupload.com/download_page.php?id=157940)
Slowed down 4 times (http://www.wikiupload.com/download_page.php?id=157946) [clip playback rate 0,250]

I guess this is NOT supposed to look like that : /

[dAb]

I wonder if a playback rate of 0,250 is too low for the final video to be smooth. Actually a playback rate of 0,500 gives a much better (http://www.wikiupload.com/download_page.php?id=157968) result.

[Eugenia Loli-Queru]

Yes, this is how it should be looking like. Here's my version of your clip, http://www.hv20.info/yopu/slowmo.mp4 looking pretty much like yours.

You simply need to cut off the first few frames and the last few ones, because the cadence is wrong in these parts, but the main video is how it should be.

If you don't like it because it looks too "strob-y", is because you used too high shutter speed in that scene. Re-try the same with a 1/250 to 1/500th or so instead, so the movement looks more natural.

[dAb]

Yes, this is how it should be looking like. Here's my version of your clip, http://www.hv20.info/yopu/slowmo.mp4 looking pretty much like yours.

You simply need to cut off the first few frames and the last few ones, because the cadence is wrong in these parts, but the main video is how it should be.


Ok, just what I need to know.



If you don't like it because it looks too "strob-y", is because you used too high shutter speed in that scene. Re-try the same with a 1/250 to 1/500th or so instead, so the movement looks more natural.

Will do. Thanks again.

But now one thing still bugs me: I've rendered it out in one single step, deinterlaced, and with smart resample enabled and to me it looks exactly the same, I don't even see ghosting at all. I wonder if I really need to go through all these steps while I can get the same result in just one painless step :hv20-smilie51:

Slowed down 50% following the tutorial (http://www.wikiupload.com/download_page.php?id=157968)
Slowed down 50% in one step (http://www.wikiupload.com/download_page.php?id=157978)

[dAb]

GOT IT! There's no ghosting if the playback rate is equal to 0,500. If so, It looks like the vegas resampling function works well enough to get smooth playback and no ghosting at all. All in just one step :hv20-smilie77:

[Eugenia Loli-Queru]

If you only want to slow-down 50%, sure. But if you want to do 200%, the Vegas one-step way is not the best way.

Also, don't forget that you are working with 50 fps. NTSC cameras do 60 fps, and the more fps you have to work with, the better the slow-motion will look like.

[dAb]

No, I need slowed down motions only. Too bad I have no ntsc cam available, but I'm quite satisfied by these results. Thanks a lot. Ciao!

[Rambo]

PerfectMotion renders a better slow down on your swing clip. This is slowed down 400%.

Needs a bit more tweaking but very smooth and no strobing.

YouTube - slowswing50fp1500

Download from here (http://www.wikiupload.com/download_page.php?id=158028) if you want a better quality Youtube is not handling the conversion very well.


Cheers Rambo

[dAb]

Amazing results! Is it perfectmotion a stand-alone software or some sort of plugin? I've been googling around with no luck.

[Rambo]

Amazing results! Is it perfectmotion a stand-alone software or some sort of plugin? I've been googling around with no luck.

I gave you the link to PerfectMotion in post No 11 above
http://www.goodervideo.com (http://www.goodervideo.com/)

Download the demo and have a play.
It only handles AVI files and max size 720 x 576 PAL.

So render the 50fps step out of Vegas 640 x 360 as Huffy, Lagarith or uncompressed avi and import into PerfectMotion and do the 400% slowdown there, export as AVI, then import back into Vegas to include in your project.

PerfectMotion is a stand alone program.

Cheers Rambo

[dAb]

I gave you the link to PerfectMotion in post No 11 above
http://www.goodervideo.com (http://www.goodervideo.com/)


Whoops. My bad.



Download the demo and have a play.
It only handles AVI files and max size 720 x 576 PAL.

So render the 50fps step out of Vegas 640 x 360 as Huffy, Lagarith or uncompressed avi and import into PerfectMotion and do the 400% slowdown there, export as AVI, then import back into Vegas to include in your project.

PerfectMotion is a stand alone program.

Cheers Rambo

Very helpful, I'll give it a try whenever I'll need a very slow motion. For now I'm good with the vegas 50% slowdown.

[this forum is amazing, why haven't I discovered you before?]

[Rambo]

For now I'm good with the vegas 50% slowdown.



Yes the Vegas 50% is good enough for me too most times. I also add a bit of motion blur when needed using Vegas Motion Blur envelope if i have shot at too fast a shutter speed and want to mask strobing some what.

Cheers Rambo

[dAb]

A bit off topic here: talking about shutter speed, is there a rule of thumb for it? Say, I need to slow down:

- a fan at 500 rpm
- a coin falling on the floor
- a swinging rope
- a running man

As far as I know lower shutter speed = bad slow motion, higher shutter speed = strobing but my understanding ends here.

[dAb]

No, I need slowed down motions only.

Huh, sorry Eugenia, I meant I need 50% slowed down motions only. Guess I need some rest.

[Rambo]

A bit off topic here: talking about shutter speed, is there a rule of thumb for it?

It depends on your project and the look you want. Motion Blur or Strobing. Best way is to shoot at different shutter speeds, do some tests at different settings within Vegas and keep the results for reference later.

Rambo

[dAb]

I ran into a big flickering problem. I need to slow down some footage exactly at 50%. While the rendering at normal speed is very enjoyable, the slowed down footage flickers a lot. Strange thing is, if I set the vegas project at 50fps and I look step by step at the frames of the original footage, one frame looks ok and the next one is wrong [I can clearly see that the light is totally wrong]. The footage was shot at 50i F1.8 1/50, I have no chance to shoot it again. I can't for the life of me figure out what I did wrong. Any chance to solve this problem?

[Eugenia Loli-Queru]

No. Smart-render the .m2t just in 5 seconds, upload it somewhere, and then we can have a look.

[dAb]

While I thank you for the interest I'm afraid I can't upload anywhere the original footage, it's coming from a bank and I guess my customer wouldn't be glad to find out that his safe is on the internet, the final video will be used for internal purposes on an intranet only.

Meanwhile I took the steps of your first method using virtualdub and it worked as expected. Smooth slowmo and no flickering at all. How can it be? I wonder if the problem is vegas related, maybe some problem in deinterlacing? :hv20-smilie51:

[Eugenia Loli-Queru]

>How can it be? I wonder if the problem is vegas related, maybe some problem in deinterlacing?

No, you just did something wrong in the procedure.

[radical_ecstasy]

Hey, I'm pretty new to my HV20, its a darling camera and everything I've seen is beautiful, but I'm not used to the canon set up.

I was hoping someone could direct me to a tutorial on changing frame rates, and maybe suggest a good frame rate for true slow motion.


many thanks for all the help.

[CycleWriter]

Please read our FAQ and always do a search before posting a question as many subjects have already been covered and some are the subjects of Stickies in the various subforums. We prefer that members post to an existing related thread rather than start a new one. Your post has been moved to one such thread. Also, posting to the proper subforum is appreciated. Welcome to the forum.:hv20-smilie77: