THE tape info thread

[scott711]

Are there any big differences between tape brands and should I spend the extra cash on HD tapes or do standard tapes work fine? Thanks in advance.

Scott

BTW..........This is a great forum and I can't wait for my new HV20. It should be here tomorrow. :hv20-smilie45:

[hizbiz]

Scott,
There is absolutely no difference in recording quality whether you use HD or standard tapes.
I am using TDK tapes from Costco and have not had any dropout issues also.
However, one thing everyone recommends is to stick to one tape brand. And in case you want to switch running a cleaning tape for beforehand. Some people reported problems with other cameras upon switching brands.
I cannot confirm whether there is any truth behind this suggestion.

Enjoy your hv20!!

[scott711]

Thanks Hizbiz,

I'll pick up a three pack and get started this weekend. I was suprised at the cost difference. Why the HD tape if there is no real difference in quality? Is it just a marketing ploy?

Scott

[Worley]

Maybe there IS a difference. But please discount my theory if I am soooooo way off...

Could it be that the HD tapes have a smaller magnetic particle size? this Would allow them to record a signal with greater fidelity; that it, during playback, the 1s and 0s will be better discriminated, and as such, a lower level of error correction would be required. On larger drop-outs, there would be a lower level of error detection required, and any resultant glitches would, potentially, be less jarring to the human eye.

Basically, better tapes = lower rates of error correction. And, therefore, the POTENTIAL to reduce visible error correction artifacts.

Just a thought.

The price difference is certainly not justified.

[hizbiz]

Maybe there IS a difference. But please discount my theory if I am soooooo way off...

Could it be that the HD tapes have a smaller magnetic particle size? this Would allow them to record a signal with greater fidelity; that it, during playback, the 1s and 0s will be better discriminated, and as such, a lower level of error correction would be required. On larger drop-outs, there would be a lower level of error detection required, and any resultant glitches would, potentially, be less jarring to the human eye.

Basically, better tapes = lower rates of error correction. And, therefore, the POTENTIAL to reduce visible error correction artifacts.

Just a thought.

The price difference is certainly not justified.


Worley,
About the particle size theory of yours I cannot tell as I have never heard of it!
But I am definite about the fact that there should be NO difference in fidelity and recording quality whatsoever. And there cannot be a "better" discrimination between 0's and 1's. They are either discriminated or not.
Well about the quality difference between the tapes, I dont deny that there might be one and that difference should only be reflected in dropouts. With poor quality tapes you have chances of more number of dropouts compared to better quality ones.
Again for better quality its better to use Panny AMQs which is pro quality instead of the HDV labelled consumer tapes.

Just my 2 cents!

[Worley]

OK, here's my understanding.

Ideally, we would store 0s and 1s on the tape, and that would be represented by a pure square wave. Peaks are 1s and troughs are 0. (Image 1 on the attachment).

However, a pure square wave cannot be recorded - that is, the voltage, required to magnetize the tape cannot instantaneously move from (for example) 0v to 1v, or 1v to 0v. The voltage will vary, and therefore give us a sinusoidal wave. (Image 2 on the attachment).

On playback, circuitry will determine whether or not the voltage (amount of magnetism) represents a 0 or a 1 - the red line in the images. Anything above a certain voltage is considered a 1, anything below is a 0.

However, if the tape is not evenly coated, then there will be times when there are no particle to magnetize, so a reading of 0v is read back.

Imagine with have a cheap tape with large particle, you can see from the third image (green squares) that there are times when instead of a 1, a 0 is incorrectly read. At these points, error correction will be employed.

http://hv20.info/yopu/EC.jpg

If you use a high grade tape with smaller particle size, the chance of dropouts is reduced - not eliminated - and so less error correction is invoked to correct for dropouts.

-------------

There is a theory that has ramifications for data recovery. The proposal is that if a particle was magnetized to represent a 1, it cannot be completely erased to a 0 state. If it is wiped to a 0, but then remagnetized to represent a 1, then the magnetism stored will be greater than that stored by a particle that previously held no charge.

What this means, is that by detecting the differences in the charge, data that had been overwritten could be reconstituted.

--------------

Worley

[hizbiz]

I see what you mean.
However if there is a dropout I dont think any error correction can help to reconstitute the frame (Correct me if I am wrong!).
By dropout do you mean a particular point (or line) is reconstituted? I thought with digital tapes the camera (or any reading mechanism) if encounters an error, drops the entire frame (or series if its a key frame in transport stream) instead of reconstituting.
Existence of any error correction mechanism would mean that two different readings from the same tape (of bad quality) might give two images with different noise. And such a mechanism would also have to involve a logical processing of data while readout occurs, that I suspect. (again correct me if you know any details)

But of course I do agree with you that a weaker density of magnetic matierial would lead to higher chances of dropouts. and that is probably one of the differences giving rise to quality diffference between panny Consumer, PQ and MQ (presently AMQ) tapes. The other differences probably would come from uniformity of the plastic tape etc.

Cheers!

[Worley]

The error correction used in digital devices tends to be quite sophisticated. For example, a block of, say, 64 1s and 0s may be recorded, then rotated. this block of 64 bits may be one of 64 blocks of 64 bits, which itself is rotated. This essentially arranges the recorded bits in a psuedo-random manner so that in the event of a drop out, the effect is distributed across the picture, not confined to one area.

It's extremely clever.

Believe me, your digital recordings are riddled with errors, but you never see them unless there is one MASSIVE dropout on the tape.

The idea of HD tape, I suspect , is to minimize those massive dropouts and to help prevent the error correction from having to work so hard.

I once saw a demonstration of a digital video player (used in broadcast). It had 4 playback heads, but three had been disconnected. Yet still the picture appeared perfect, thanks to the sophisticated error correction algorithms.

It is highly unlikely that an entire field or frame would be lost.

In the early days of digital television (when I was training to be a broadcast engineer) we learned about all the various error correction techniques, but I've long since forgotten them... And things have moved on a great deal, too.

[hizbiz]

Hi Worley,
Well I understand now what you mean.
But anyway by the word "dropout" it always means dropping a frame. At least that is the way I found it to be referred everywhere. Cause if there are little bits and pieces of data blocks missing (corrected by error correction as you say) than I don't think its called dropout. Cause essentially you do not loose any information if error correction corrects it.
Again coming to error correction..probably you are right. But I still have doubts because if something like that happens than in a very small part a 0 might get replaced by a 1. (Might not mean anything in video world but means a lot in the computer world). And if you have ever come across tape backup systems that we use in the computer world, the information comes out exactly the same, bit by bit. otherwise there would be a havoc if the backup systems used there own brain to correct!
My idea still now was that DV uses the exact same mechanism to record as tape backups. Not something different. (In fact there is a software which could use miniDV camcorders as a normal computer data backup device!)
And again except CD's and DVD's which are optical media even computer harddisks are magnetic media and according to your theory (however great they are made in terms of uniformity and density of magnetic particles) the principle should remain the same as tapes and you can imagine what would a error correction mean in such a case!! I dont know how the digital TV's used to work but I am very sure that the systems must have evolved quite a lot by now.
I would like to see some technical papers/research articles to make myself believe. I guess I am going to search google!
Cheers!

ps. I think we should make it a different thread by now instead of hijacking the OP's thread which was really very different.
May I request the moderator to break this thread please!!

[crobs808]

you should really use the 60minute panasonic tapes, and NEVER EVER record over old tapes. they are $1.79 from recordingstore.com, can't beat that.

~ crobs808

P.S. _ in the over 100 weddings we've filmes (2 camera, so like 6 tapes per wedding) we have YET to have a drop out using these tapes, so all that talk about error is a moot point if you get these. same with TaiyoYuden DVDs...there is a best brand for every piece of hardware.

[Worley]

@Hizbiz,

Tape backup systems will be using a different error correction technique to digital video.

The data you record on your hard drive has simple built in error correction - cyclic redundancy code, I believe. Ever received a CRC error? That will be because the error correction has failed.

If a tape bakup system is compressing data, then a different method or error correction is probably used - ever recieve a, "invalid archive" type error on a .zip file?

I am using the term 'drop out' to refer to an area of tape where there are missing particles. These areas will be very small, but will nevertheless impact upon the the 'fidelity' of the recording. Where a drop out occurs, error detection will be required. But the chances are you really won't notice because, as mentioned in my earlier post, the error is distributed across the image, not confined to a defined are due to the way the encoding is performed.

However, what happens if the drop out occurs in a region of tape where the error correction is recorded? The error correction will fail, and you WILL see glitches on the screen. Maybe pixelation or blockines, perhaps a momentary banding, or a digital 'squeak' in the audio.

But to go back to the OP's question - in all likelihood, there is no discernable difference between standard and HDV tape.

Don't be fooled by the marketing or by all this talk of error correction and drop outs!

Worley

[hizbiz]

@Hizbiz,

Tape backup systems will be using a different error correction technique to digital video.

The data you record on your hard drive has simple built in error correction - cyclic redundancy code, I believe. Ever received a CRC error? That will be because the error correction has failed.

If a tape bakup system is compressing data, then a different method or error correction is probably used - ever recieve a, "invalid archive" type error on a .zip file?

I am using the term 'drop out' to refer to an area of tape where there are missing particles. These areas will be very small, but will nevertheless impact upon the the 'fidelity' of the recording. Where a drop out occurs, error detection will be required. But the chances are you really won't notice because, as mentioned in my earlier post, the error is distributed across the image, not confined to a defined are due to the way the encoding is performed.

However, what happens if the drop out occurs in a region of tape where the error correction is recorded? The error correction will fail, and you WILL see glitches on the screen. Maybe pixelation or blockines, perhaps a momentary banding, or a digital 'squeak' in the audio.

But to go back to the OP's question - in all likelihood, there is no discernable difference between standard and HDV tape.

Don't be fooled by the marketing or by all this talk of error correction and drop outs!

Worley


Yes those are the errors I was talking about. And now I got what you meant by error correction. As these kind of "error correction" would involve extreme fidelity ( so that there is bit by bit matching between data recorded and data retrieved) any loss of fidelity would mean the failure of the whole archive.
(Giving "invalid archive" type errors).

But whether tape devices and miniDV uses different methods of error correction... well than I have to call it a quit! :hv20-smilie01:
As that would involve quite a lot of reading on my part. And all the documents describing the technology might not also be openly available.

But as this error corrections are really at the hardware level I think I can check that out empirically too. (But I dont want to do so ...I want to shoot video in that time...:hv20-smilie84:)

Anyway to OP and everyone else-- there is no need to worry about all these and you can use any miniDV tape with hdv camcorders.

[Olphus]

you should really use the 60minute panasonic tapes, and NEVER EVER record over old tapes. they are $1.79 from recordingstore.com, can't beat that.
So if there is no difference between regular and HD tapes.. is there a difference between cheap and expensive tapes:hv20-smilie51:

I was thinking of buying the panny 5pack from recordingstore.com for $1.79/tape instead of the more expensive $3-7.

[24Peter]

So if there is no difference between regular and HD tapes.. is there a difference between cheap and expensive tapes:hv20-smilie51:

I was thinking of buying the panny 5pack from recordingstore.com for $1.79/tape instead of the more expensive $3-7.

Well I use the more expensive Panasonic MQ/AMQ tapes but I do tape over them if I don't need the original footage. I've recorded over tapes 5-6 times and never had a dropout. Don't know how the cheaper tapes handle re-recording but the MQ/AMQ seem to handle it fine.

[hizbiz]

So if there is no difference between regular and HD tapes.. is there a difference between cheap and expensive tapes:hv20-smilie51:

I was thinking of buying the panny 5pack from recordingstore.com for $1.79/tape instead of the more expensive $3-7.

Olphus,
I would suspect the difference of magnetic material density that Worley was talking about is there between the expansive and cheap tapes.
The other differences might also exist (like quality control etc. etc.).
Though I am using TDK for now, I would not go with the cheapest panny tapes. Rather I would prefer to go for at least the PQ. And since I never reuse my tapes, AMQ tapes would be rather costly for me!

The other thing to consider while buying tapes is how important your shooting event is (for once in a life time shootings or professional tasks like shooting weddings etc. you might not want to have dropouts but for casual stuff you can perhaps tolerate dropouts.)

Cheers!

[Deimos]

It's simple as this:

1. Record something on an "high end" expensive hd tape.

2. Capture via firewire that footage.

3. Take the ugliest cheapest tape you can found. Better if this tape is used, and record the footage already captured in your computer via firewire on that ugly tape.

4. Capture the footage from the ugly tape.

5. Take a frame from the original high-end tape, and other from the second generation of the recaptured on the ugly tape.

6. Put them in two layers in photoshop and switch between them.

Then you can check that there isn't a single pixel diferent on each frame, so it's no reason to use "hd" tapes, because you are obtaining the same. And no, an HD tape has nothing to do with any "dropout proof" feature.

[24Peter]

It's simple as this:

1. Record something on an "high end" expensive hd tape.

2. Capture via firewire that footage.

3. Take the ugliest cheapest tape you can found. Better if this tape is used, and record the footage already captured in your computer via firewire on that ugly tape.

4. Capture the footage from the ugly tape.

5. Take a frame from the original high-end tape, and other from the second generation of the recaptured on the ugly tape.

6. Put them in two layers in photoshop and switch between them.

Then you can check that there isn't a single pixel diferent on each frame, so it's no reason to use "hd" tapes, because you are obtaining the same. And no, an HD tape has nothing to do with any "dropout proof" feature.

Since the files are digital, if both tapes are working properly you'll never see any difference in the image quality (vs. the analog videotape of days of old.) However, I think the thing manufacturers can try to claim with their HDV/higher end DV tapes is these better tapes are more dropout resistant. So I would say the HD tapes have EVERYTHING to do with whether or not they produce less dropouts. (I think they mainly address the issue by increasing the density of the better tapes.) Now whether those claims are true or not remains to be seen. We all have to make our own decision. But in that respect at least, the HDV tapes are different than regular DV tapes. (Of course some manufacturers may just be relabelling their DV tapes as HDV since they are compatible. Not talking about that here.) But as far as image quality, you're right: there's no difference provided the tapes are working properly (i.e., no dropouts). All that being said, you'll even get dropouts with the higher-end tapes if your heads are dirty, so ulitmately that may be a more important issue than which tapes you use. :hv20-smilie02:

[Deimos]

Moreover, people should keep in mind the fact that when they record in HDV, the bitrate is exactly the same of "the old" standard DV. Nothing to do for example with a DVD and a Blu-Ray (or HDDVD), where the media needs to be different in order to keep more data.

As someone mentioned above, the difference is that a dropout is goona be more visible in HDV, but in both cases (HDV and DV), a dropout means you're doing something wrong.

[hizbiz]

Deimos,
The points that you and 24peter said are the ones that I have been saying from the first post, i.e. apart from dropout issues (HD or any high quality tape may be less prone than cheap consumer DV tapes) there should not be any difference in quality (even at the bit level) between images from a "best" tape and "worst" tape. As long as you can read the image they would be identical.
But that is the point Worley thinks to be NOT TRUE!! So all these error correction and things were brought out..:hv20-smilie15:

[BarnOwl]

Interesting thread, but what about life expectancy, lubrication etc? Would a $3.00 tape last just as long as a more expensive one?
I ask this because I keep all my master footage on the original tape. I never re-use one tape. I understand keeping these tapes in proper conditions will last them 30 years and maybe more. That lifespan has still to be proven by any other digital medium.

[hizbiz]

so, after all that, which I have to say was very interesting, what is a good tape to use and where is a cheap place to buy in the UK?

Pascalbrown,
In US I am using TDK tapes. they are like 2.5$ each. Though I am planning to switch to Panny PQ's. Both of them being dry type I hope it would be OK to switch brands.
I would recommend Panny PQ or may be AMQ (if you think the price to be worth for your shootings).

[BarnOwl]

So far I have shot with the JVC ProHD 63 ME (http://www.jvcpro.co.uk/item/index_html?item=M-DV63PROHD) tapes and for around 6 Euro's each it looks like a good compromise between price and quality to me........

[Ten Ounce]

Hey guys, I'm new to the boards here. I bought the HV-20 at CC last week and have been doing lots of reading here and elsewhere about all the features.

Anyway, I originally bought a 4 pack of these at CC:

http://www.amazon.com/Sony-DVM-60-Premium-Videocassette-5DVM60PRL/dp/B0009HGVZW/ref=pd_sim_e_2/002-1263294-5701604?ie=UTF8&qid=1182272428&sr=8-1

I paid $20 for the 4-pack, but Amazon has the 5-pack for only $12.70, shipped free if I buy 2, and no tax. Anybody here have experience with these? I'll be using it to record my upcoming wedding, so I want to be sure I'm getting quality stuff. Thanks for any input!

I've used those Sony tapes many times on my old camcorder. I personally prefer the Panasonic tapes though.

[encendido5]

I purchased three 8 packs of TDK High Quality MiniDV tapes from Costco for 60 dollars.

Nice, thanks. I'll have to take a look next time I'm there.

I think I read something about wet tapes and dry tapes and making sure not to mix and match between the two? Did I read that right or did I misinterpret something?

[HV20 novice]

I just bought the HV20 and ordered 2 x 5-packs of Sony Premium DVM60 tapes from Amazon, which came in yesterday, only to find out later that there are also HD mini-DV tapes out there. The Camcorder's manual is not very clear about the kind of tape one needs to buy. Should I only be using these HD mini-DV tapes if recording in HD format or will the Premium Sony tapes do the job as well?

[Jyruiz]

I an new as well and odered the same tapes as you did, but from all that I have read on this forum, there is no difference and one should stick with the same kind of tapes.

[HV20 novice]

Thanks for the replies, folks. Just wondering: if there is no difference in video quality, then why are there more expensive HD tapes out there in the market? I did a Google search on the topic and came up with this, though not still sure if I understand what they're saying: http://www.tapestockonline.com/mini-dv-hd.html

[RockyRoad2929]

Beware...Sony is wet tapes...and most are dry. Dry is better. If you use Sony STICK with it because its wet. Never mix.

Yes, their is a difference if your shooting HD. I did a test with Panasonic and TDK (my usual) and both shot on HD and the TDK wasn't as sharp and vibrant colours as the Pany especially shooting in HD. Of course, a fair test should be with their Master Mini DV vs Pany Master...that would be a fair competion and nice to behold!

Panasonic Master Quality is the best. I think it is AY-DVM63AMQ

http://www.tapeandmedia.com/mini_dv_panasonic_master.asp

I never bought from here...but here is a picture of it and their price. Like $6.99.

PS. don't skiip on price over quality...its not that much to afford the best. But buy On-line or from a professional shop...no, not at Best buy since they don't have it and they will charge you a fortune. They generally have Sony...I think they have a very good deal with the Japanense.

Have fun!!!

Shoot, shoot...and Enjoy!!!

Cheers...

[Erik Bien]

First, let me repeat my plea to the mods: I think we need a "sticky" about tape quality, since it seems everytime the last "HD or DV tape?" thread drops off 'Today's Posts' a new one pops up.

I suspect this is one of those "how many megapixels can dance on the head of a pin?" questions: even if someone were to run carefully controlled tests of every tape on the market and post screen captures and numbers of dropped frames they encountered on each one, the consequences of a single dropout in HDV are potentially so dire (nobody wants to lose 15 contiguous frames to one glitch) some folks will probably opt for "Super Mega Premium Ultra High Definition Platinum" tape 'just in case,' while others will use whatever's on sale and cross their fingers, no matter what the data says.

The "pick one brand and stick to it" advice has been floating around at least since the days of the GL-1; whether it's an old wives' tale or legitimate folk wisdom I don't know, but I think it's a fair statement that, at least in the past, people who randomly used varying brands of cheap tape tended to have more dropouts and "remove the cassette" errors than those who didn't.

Bearing in mind this might be related to the way each type of operator handles their camera (i.e., I suspect the group using off-brand tape includes more casual/home users than the brand loyalists) I'd probably advise running a cleaning cassette before switching to a new tape brand "just to be safe."

As to the whole "HD vs DV tape" debate, here's my best attempt at an 'executive producer summary': while the component parts of an HDV tape may, depending on the manufacturer, have better quality control, AFAIK no manufacturer claims to use different oxides, etc. between their HDV and DV offerings: so "tape is tape."

If you think of your tapes as your archive masters, it's probably worth at least buying a reputable brand, but is it worth paying double the price (or even more) for the "genuine" HDV article? Again, I suspect the answer will vary depending on whether you're shooting family vacations, film festival entries or bar mitzvahs for paying clients.

And on a related note, how many licks does it take to get the center of a Tootsie Pop?

[wolferic]

First, let me repeat my plea to the mods: I think we need a "sticky" about tape quality, since it seems everytime the last "HD or DV tape?" thread drops off 'Today's Posts' a new one pops up.

Here Here! I second third and fourth your motion!


As to the whole "HD vs DV tape" debate, here's my best attempt at an 'executive producer summary': while the component parts of an HDV tape may, depending on the manufacturer, have better quality control, AFAIK no manufacturer claims to use different oxides, etc. between their HDV and DV offerings: so "tape is tape."

Agreed. Anyone who thinks that HD tapes give a 'sharper picture and more vibrant colors' needs to re-access their testing methodology: there is no physical/engineering/technical reason that I know of that would explain this – even the marketing BS never claims such things. (They just claim that HD tapes are safer.)


And on a related note, how many licks does it take to get the center of a Tootsie Pop?
Just two, if I remember correctly. Hoot, Hoot. :hv20-smilie64:

[24Peter]

Agreed. Anyone who thinks that HD tapes give a 'sharper picture and more vibrant colors' needs to re-access their testing methodology: there is no physical/engineering/technical reason that I know of that would explain this – even the marketing BS never claims such things. (They just claim that HD tapes are safer.)


Double agreed: remember this is digital data, so either the info is recorded or it's not. Digital tapes are a series of 1's and 0's; that's all (well they're actually a series of positively/negatively magnetised bits that are translated as 1's and 0's).

On a somewhat related note, I've been experiencing 2-4 dropouts per tape recently (again) and I'm using Panasonic MQ/AMQ tapes. I just did another head clean and am going to give the PQ tapes a try. But I can't wait to ditch tapes altogether! :hv20-smilie36:

[jdog]

Pardon me if this is a dumb question, but I read the posts about using one tape versus the other (for quality purposes) and I didn't realize that you could use a standard mini dv tape to record hd and not opt for an hd tape if you so choose? Am I correct with this assumption?

Thanks

[wolferic]

Pardon me if this is a dumb question, but I read the posts about using one tape versus the other (for quality purposes) and I didn't realize that you could use a standard mini dv tape to record hd and not opt for an hd tape if you so choose? Am I correct with this assumption?

Thanks

Yes. Need more info? Look up at the post from Eric Bien

[samundsen]

I use Sony tapes with my HV20, simply because I've used Sony tapes for years with my old Sony camera. I've always heard that you should stick with one brand, but I had no idea about the dry vs. wet tapes.

Regarding cleaning tapes, I've seen conflicting recommendations on the forums here. Some say do not use Sony cleaning tape in the HV20, use Panasonic instead. Now, I get the impression that if you use Sony tapes, you should use Sony cleaning tape as well? I have a set of both Sony and Panasonic cleaning tapes (unopened), but I have not yet used either in the HV20, and I'm seriously confused now which one I should use. Btw, my HV20 is brand new, but I did notice I got a couple of dropouts on my test recordings, which is why I've considered using a cleaning tape (I read on these forums that some HV20 shipped with dirty heads).

[Lunchbox]

I'm using Panasonic PQ tapes. They are great. $3.29 per tape if order 100 from B&H. Next up will be AMQ. Will be $5.9 per tape if buying 50 tapes.

For a full day wedding gig, I shot over 16 tapes using 2 camcorders. The costs add up. So far the Pana PQ tapes are great.

[some1shero]

proof is in the pudding.

I did a test to see if anyone can even see the difference between different tapes.

this is raw footage of 4 different tapes that i used on a hv20 with a brevis. Canon FD 50mm Lens F1.4. no color correction has been done.

the tapes are:

TDK DVM60
SONY DVM60PRL Premium
PANASONIC AY-DVM63PQ
FUJI DVM60

However, i labeled the footage:

Mystery Tape 01
Mystery Tape 02
Mystery Tape 03
Mystery Tape 04

the raw 238MB file is here: http://hv20.info/yopu/some1shero_tapeComparisonMystery_01.m2t

the smaller WMV 45.1MB file is there: http://hv20.info/yopu/some1shero_tapeComparisonMystery_01.wmv

let's see if anyone can guess which mystery tape is which.

i'll post the result in a day or so.

[Jessica]

proof is in the pudding.

I did a test to see if anyone can even see the difference between different tapes.

this is raw footage of 4 different tapes that i used on a hv20 with a brevis. Canon FD 50mm Lens F1.4. no color correction has been done.

the tapes are:

TDK DVM60
SONY DVM60PRL Premium
PANASONIC AY-DVM63PQ
FUJI DVM60

However, i labeled the footage:

Mystery Tape 01
Mystery Tape 02
Mystery Tape 03
Mystery Tape 04

the raw 238MB file is here: http://hv20.info/yopu/some1shero_tapeComparisonMystery_01.m2t

the smaller WMV 45.1MB file is there: http://hv20.info/yopu/some1shero_tapeComparisonMystery_01.wmv

let's see if anyone can guess which mystery tape is which.

i'll post the result in a day or so.
Wow! Thanks for doing this!

I downloaded the raw 238mb file and.. Well.. I can't see any diference at all! They all look the same to me.. Maybe its because im a casual camera-user?

I wonder if there is anyone here who can actualy see a diference and if there is one tape that is better than the others.. but i doubt it.

[some1shero]

Mystery Tape 01 - PANASONIC AY-DVM63PQ
Mystery Tape 02 - SONY DVM60PRL Premium
Mystery Tape 03 - FUJI DVM60
Mystery Tape 04 - TDK DVM60

honestly, i can't really tell the differences in the tapes myself.
you can talk all the tech stuff you want about the quality of the tape, the materials it's made of, wet and dry, etc...., but it all comes down to what it looks like.

digital info is digital info. seems to me that 1's and 0's on ANY tape is still 1's and 0's. with THAT said....i still only buy PANASONIC AY-DVM63PQ. :hv20-smilie81:hahaha.

[Jessica]

Mystery Tape 01 - PANASONIC AY-DVM63PQ
Mystery Tape 02 - SONY DVM60PRL Premium
Mystery Tape 03 - FUJI DVM60
Mystery Tape 04 - TDK DVM60

honestly, i can't really tell the differences in the tapes myself.
you can talk all the tech stuff you want about the quality of the tape, the materials it's made of, wet and dry, etc...., but it all comes down to what it looks like.

digital info is digital info. seems to me that 1's and 0's on ANY tape is still 1's and 0's. with THAT said....i still only buy PANASONIC AY-DVM63PQ. :hv20-smilie81:hahaha.
Yes I fully agree with you. there is no way for the human eye to see any diference between the tapes.

But when it comes to wet and dry, I have heard that people should avoid wet tapes and only use dry ones. Why is that?

[Michael Davis]

there is no way for the human eye to see any diference between the tapes.There is no way for a spectromoscopometer to see the difference either, since as has been stated earlier in this thread, the data is either there or it isn't. It's not analog, so differences in tape quality to not effect the image, they just affect whether or not the tape falls apart.

[Lunchbox]

I'm pretty sure there're no difference in the quality of video you shoot with different tape. The problem is the frequnecy of drop out with poor quality of tape. Also, mixing different brands of tape might cause clogging of head due to dry/wet mix lub used.

[CJDaniels]

Honestly, find one you like. I was burned by Sonys years ago, I won't go back. Drop outs like crazy. I like Panasonics I buy less expensive for everyday shooting and Premium for my Professional stuff. Do I see a difference? No, but sometimes I have to go back to my Professional stuff to re-capture so I am taking no chances.

[slc-danza]

When you guys say to stick with the same tape once you start, do you mean keep using the same brand or tape, or are you saying more specifically use the same exact model of tape. For example, would it do any harm to start out with a Panasonic PQ tape and then later try out a Panasonic Pro Quality? Please shed some light on this for me.

[wolferic]

When you guys say to stick with the same tape once you start, do you mean keep using the same brand or tape, or are you saying more specifically use the same exact model of tape. For example, would it do any harm to start out with a Panasonic PQ tape and then later try out a Panasonic Pro Quality? Please shed some light on this for me.

usually it means to stick with tape from the same manufacturer. In theory, a manufacturer would use the same lubricant on all it's products, or so the thinking goes.

Regardless, just to be on the safe side it is best to use a head cleaning tape (best to use one made by the manufacturer of the last tape used) any time you switch tape make or model. This may be a bit of overkill, but it certainly won't hurt anything.

For what it's worth, I was using cheap Sony tapes exclusively in cameras and decks made by Sony and Panasonic and never had any problems with drops outs. The Sony's aren't terribly well thought of around here, but my theory was that if I was going to stick to one brand, I would make sure it was one I could easily find anywhere in the world, and Sony seems to be pretty market-saturated.

Last bit of advice: don't sweat your tape decision too much: just make sure that you buy a head cleaning tape when you make your choice!

[icarusi]

For what it's worth, I was using cheap Sony tapes exclusively in cameras and decks made by Sony and Panasonic and never had any problems with drops outs. The Sony's aren't terribly well thought of around here, but my theory was that if I was going to stick to one brand, I would make sure it was one I could easily find anywhere in the world, and Sony seems to be pretty market-saturated.

Seems to be TDK here. Sony is usually higher priced. I haven't had dropouts on a new Sony DVM60PR but did have a few on a second run DVM60PR which had been through a Panasonic camcorder once. I've got some DVM60-COLOR which seem slightly up-spec to the PR but don't know if that will translate to to resilience to dropout:-

Magnetic Properties

DVM60PR, DVM60-COLOR, DVM63HDV
Coercivity (kA/m)
105.0
120.0
125.0

Coercivity (OE)
1320.0
1500.0
N/A

Retentivity (mT)
500.0
530.0
550.0

Retentivity (Gauss)
5000.0
5300.0
N/A

Squareness (%)
78.0
80.0
82.0

Physical Properties
DVM60PR 3DVM60-COLOR DVM63HDV
Tape width (mm)
6.35
6.35
6.35

Thickness : magnetic layer (µm)
0.2
0.2
0.2

Thickness : total (µm)
7.0
7.0
7.0

[Lunchbox]

Those Canon head cleaning tape is way overprice. $26 a piece.. that's just wrong! Anybody spotted where to buy that chaeper canon head cleaning tape?

http://www.amazon.com/Canon-DVM-CL-Head-Cleaning-Cassette/dp/B00006GJT4/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=electronics&qid=1196701594&sr=8-1

[Maqe]

Well hi to all.
I've read the whole posts about tapes.
Im a new user of Canon Hv20 and dont know much about tech stuff.
I've ordered a pack of 5 Sony pq tapes but have not used them yet.
I read that i shouldnt use Sony tapes with Canon hv20 cause they are wet tapes and i should used dry tapes instead.
First of all.What is the difference between wet and dry tapes as fas as camcorder's operation is concerned.
Seconly im planning to shoot a short in hd.Am i gonna need hdv tapes to record?
Well thats all need at the moment.
Thanks in regards.
Have a nice day.
1. I have no idea what the difference is between wet and dry tapes.

2. NO. You do NOT need special HDV-tapes to shoot in HD.
The advantage with HDV-tapes is that they are supposed to be more reliable in the sense that there would be fewer errors in the recording. Errors being mainly dropped frames. I have experienced this using used DV-tapes that previously had regular DV-material on them, when recording in shaky conditions. In regular filming with new tapes, I would not see the price difference between DV and HDV tapes as justified. Especially since the budget is such that you are using a HV20 camera.

Sorry it took so long for someone to respond to your question. Hope someone can fill in on the wet/dry tape detail.

[Lunchbox]

there are dry lubricant and web lubricant used by different DV tape manufacturers. I think Sony is the one who use wet lub. If you mix brands of tape with wet and dry lub, it will cause clogging to the tape head. Then your HV20 will need service.

Is it the same like mixing baby powder with KY? heheh

[achilles99]

Internet wisdom says that Sony uses wet lube, everyone else is dry. Please read this from a Sony rep, which seems to imply the opposite!

http://www.camcorderinfo.com/bbs/t128416.html

[kenjo]

I just received my HV20 and have been using a Sony HD tape. I've only recorded maybe 30 minutes worth. After reading this thread, I'm thinking of changing to Pana PQ tapes to reduce cost. Two questions:

1) How many minutes of taping with the Sony "wet" tapes before it's too late to switch to Pana's "dry" tapes? (Or can you switch anytime if you use the head cleaner?)

2) Should you use a Pana head cleaner if you're using the Pana tapes? Or should I use the Sony head cleaning tape because it's a Sony camera?

Thanks in advance

[rgtaa]

Question: How often do you use "tape head cleaner"?

I got my first message to do "tape head cleaning" after about 10 hours of use, is that about right?

Do you only clean your heads when you get a message to clean heads?

[jpc]

Just got a HV 20. I have 12 JVC DVM 60 minidv tapes left over from my 7 year old panasonic. I got them at ecost.com about a year ago. I assume that these are JVC's basic tapes. Is it a bad idea to use these? Thanks.

[Lunchbox]

jpc, WELCOME TO THE FORUM. we're going to arrange a welcome parade just to honor you :)

There shouldn't be any problem using those JVC tapes. I used to buy tapes from ecost too (hated their $4 handling charge tho). I sometime also mix them with the Panasonic PQ tapes I have. So far no problem. The only concern for mixing tape is the dry/wet lub used in different brand. So be ware of that.

[skydriver]

Ok guys, 2 things, i am new with the HV20, and i am looking for tapes in Canada

the preferred choice among this group is Panasonic PQ tapes, so i went and bought 2 at a local retail store at 10$ ea.

now i am searching the net, Canada sites for the best prices.

It seems to me averybody uses the 63 minute tape AY-DVM63PQ, what about the 83mm AY-DVM83PQ?

this is what i found so far (all prices canadian)
Merkle Camera 63PQ = 6.99 & 83PQ = 12.99
Vistek 63PQ = 5.99 or (5) for 24.99
Panasonic Canada 63PQ = 4.25 & 83PQ = 8.25 (but i cannot buy directly this tape from Pany)

So the best price so far is 24.99 for (5) at Vistek

[Lunchbox]

I have never use any 83 min tape. but what I heard so far was the 83 min tape is heavier and will cause damage to the transport motor.

[mhuth]

Both DV and HDV have the same data rate in the bitstream. So the probability of data loss is the same. However, HDV uses interframe compression (either 12 or 15 frames to the group - one key frame and then 14 deltas) whereas DV uses only intraframe compression. Thus an error in an HDV stream will appear in upto 15 frames, and if the error is in the keyframe frame, it could be very ugly. The same error on a DV stream will affect only the one frame.

It is likely that the raw data format layed down on the tape is the same for both, with the same error correction mechanisms (usually a combination of reed-solomen codes and data interleaving and redundancy to limit the damage to a given data block, but I haven't looked at the specifics on the mini-DV drives).

The Consumer HDV tapes __may__ be somewhat better - probably as a result of a production screen for error blocks. However, it may be that the production line produces almost all good tapes, in which case the quality between the HDV and DV tapes would be the same. The miniDV tapes are already quite high-tech, using a metal vapor deposition process rather than the ground iron/cobalt oxide that is mixed with a binder that was used for audio and VHS tapes. At least last time I looked into the process.

I have used TDK from Costco for years with no problems and no known dropouts when pulled into the NLE. Of course, I don't claim to have looked individually at every frame, but I've scrubbed through enough to know that the dropout occurance is not at all high.

I continue to use the same tapes for HDV without noticable problems, although my experience is limited to this point with the HDV. I almost never use a tape more than twice, and even then only when I'm playing around.

They are a very cheap and reliable way to backup the work compared to other computer media so long as you avoid magnetic fields. They are probably not archival in the 100+ year sense, though, but that problem is not yet solved with DVD+/-R either.

TDK miniDV tapes are available at CC for $25 in a tenpack - down from the same price for 6 a few years ago. I don't think I've even tried another brand.

[lalle]

What about archiving permanently? What will happen to our important videos from weddings and the kids first years, if the tapes are stored for ten years? Does anybody knows if there is a difference between quality tapes versus ordinary ones? Some say Panasonic is the best.

[hvheinz]

Hi all,
yes I just purchased some of the Canon HDVM-E63PR but had not
yet time to use them for long. In two weeks time I will take vacation
in Thailand and of course will shoot a lot there
The tapes are very expensive !
They come in a black (hi protective) plastic cover (75x105mm)
The little guide packed with it says:
- Always rewind the tape before storing, and place the cassette upright in its protective case
- The cassette on which recording will be archieved for 10 years or more should always be placed within the room temperature of 15 to 25 deg.C and humidity of 40 to 60%

Thats all...maybe some more feedback end of this month..
happy shooting

[melvonnar]

Sams club Mini tape; approx $2.25 each.
Sony Hi def tape approx $8.00 each.
Is it really worth the differance ?
And if so why ?
My understanding is that digital either works; or it don;t unlike the old analog.
Why spent the extra cash, if the results are the same ?:hv20-smilie64:

[Lunchbox]

Theoretically there isn't because of digital. However, there're tape density that cause dropout. It causes more problem in HDV because of the MPEG-2 GOP structure. You don't lost just one or a few frames, you lost a group of frames.

I switched from $2 JVC tape to $4 Panasonic PQ tapes. I still experience drop outs on and off but not as often as in those JVC tapes.

I still believe HD grade DV tape is a marketing hype. I would go for Panasonic AMQ tape ($6 a pop) if I used up the 300 PQ tapes I have. I woudln't think $8 HD tape is worthy.

btw, people will tell you over the air digital broadcast you don't get noise. You either get clean picture or nothing. WRONG! There're noise but they are a different kind of noise. When the signal is week, you got lots of blockiness pictures.

[Grahamk]

I recently purchased a 10 pack of TDK DVM60ME tapes at Costco for $25. I haven't used them yet as I'm awaiting the arrival of my HV20. Does anyone have any experience with these tapes? Should I keep them or take them back? I want to start off with a good tape as I've read changing brands is not a good idea.
Thanks everyone, Graham

[RodyPolis]

so Taky. What you're saying is that the HDV tapes help a little, but not to much?

[Lunchbox]

I didn't say it. Where you get that from? I said I was using $2 JVC tape and now using $4 Panasonic PQ tape. I might try Panasonic AMQ tape later on. None of these are HD tapes.

[Lunchbox]

Dropout are bad. If you don't see anything, you should consider lucky. It happens randomly even to new tape or expensive tape and new camcorders too. I noticed it also occured during some severe shaking movment.

[melvonnar]

Sams club tape is maxell, As of now Ive ran approx 20 tapes through the HV-20.
I have used maxell tape in my old camera ( an analog VHS) never had a problem with about 300 tapes through the camera.
I believe vibration is the killer in a tape camcorder; most of my shots are freehand; The secret is to have a real steady hand.

[melvonnar]

I guess bottom line is this; other than the possibility of dropouts is there any downsides of useing less expensive tape. it;s not going to ruin the camera is it? Or will it?

[Erik Bien]

If I remember correctly, this was the question that finally led to the creation of the HV20.com FAQ (http://www.hv20.com/showthread.php?t=3058). Hoping to stamp out and eliminate redundancy and repetition, I will merely link to my previously stated opinion (http://www.hv20.com/showthread.php?p=22344#post22344) in the matter.

[pitonyak]

I expect that a "better" tape may have a longer useful lifetime and suffer less from bit-rot. I remember an old MFM hard drive being used with an RLL drive controller. Although this worked, the higher bit density caused the bits to decay within a month. The end result was that the drive was usable but a new low level format needed to be performed every month.

When I read the description on the AY-DVM63AMQ (versus the cheaper AY-DVM63PQ), they spent a lot of time describing durability. Stand up to more rewinds, better lubricant, etc.

The more expensive tape, therefore, may be worth the money relative to long term storage and also for more re-use.

[cjcook]

First of all - Great Thread!!! Most of the other topics/threads have me spending MORE money (adding lenses, mics, tripods, etc), but this one has me SAVING money - I love it! Anyway, just a quick observation - I just purchased my first batch of Panny PQs (63 minutes) and notice that they show up in the tape counter as only 61 minutes, on all my other tapes (which have been Panny HD and JVC HD up until now), I get the correct 63 minute tape counter reading. Has anyone else noticed this? I also bought 5 of 83 minute Panny PQs, but just saw an earlier post by Taky that says they are harmful to the tape transport. Taky (or anyone else), can you please confirm this and possibly site any references and or personal experience regarding the 83 minute tapes. Thanks a bunch for really helping out this noob!

[Rentakill]

I'm another user of the Sony HD 63 min Mind tape. I have used over 10 tapes so far with no drop outs what so ever...

I'm getting them for around $11-15 each in Australia, there is no proven facts that make this tape any better than cheaper tapes in the market.

Having said that everyone has their own personal preference when they choose there tapes. So the old saying goes, use what you feel does the job the best. For some users peace of mine comes at a higher cost, as for me I can highly recommend the above tapes as I have used them with no problems...:hv20-smilie77:

http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a183/Rentakill/untitled-1.jpg

[jtsg]

Anyone using JVC DVM60 getting drop-outs at random intervals like me?

HDVSplit has been detecting frame-drops up to 5 times over one 60-minute capture length.

But when I record another 60 minutes over that same tape, HDVSplit captured it flawlessly.

What's an 'economy' value tape you haven't had trouble with (if any) and would recommend?

[notlad]

Thanks everyone for your comments on this thread. I have only had my HV20 for a couple of months now. I had set out determined to use the Sony HDV tapes but after buying four of them at around nine bucks a pop this thread has convinced me to swithc to the Panasonic DVM63PQ.

I am glad I read this before I had shot more than the four tapes in the HV20 and along with the 10 Panny tapes I just bought from Amazon for under forty bucks with free shipping I bought a head cleaning tape so I can clean the heads before changing brands.

The Panny DVM63PQ are less than half the price of the Sony HDV tape (almost 1/3) and I am looking forward to that!

[_gl]

I'm either freakishly lucky it seems... or I'm missing something. I haven't had any problems though (Sony premium tapes on two different HV20s, no tape mixing).

I bought some Pannys for a Panasonic miniDV cam, after reading it's probably best to stick to the same brand. I just reused one tape for tests a few times. Then I upgraded to the HV20, and used the same tape. Large parts of it have now been recorded about 6-8 times, and Premiere hasn't once notified me of a dropout (nor have I seen one).

Bear in mind that a break in shooting (and especially a switch between SD & HD) can result in a perfectly normal dropout at the seam. You only need to worry about those mid-scene. Saying that, I don't actually know what a real dropout looks like yet - are we talking random squares for several frames, or does the cam actually black out frames if it detects errors?

[Swefsvr]

Sams club Mini tape; approx $2.25 each.
Sony Hi def tape approx $8.00 each.
Is it really worth the differance ?
And if so why ?
My understanding is that digital either works; or it don;t unlike the old analog.
Why spent the extra cash, if the results are the same ?:hv20-smilie64:

If you are planning to reuse the tape, I would suggest use SONY but if not, I will use affordable tape. We work in a studio and SONY tape never gave us any problem. I would not suggest using any other brand if you plan to reuse the tape, if anything wrong with the tape, you will lost 1/2 second of the footage.

[_gl]

I recently bought 10 TDK tapes from Costco and when I exported my project, it was grossly out of synch! This happened 3 times going from my computer to tape twice and once from a deck on someone else's computer! I'm not technically savvy enough to figure out why that was but it's pushing me to try another brand!

It's not going to be the tape, it must be some problem during the export. If you think about it, the sound and video are written to the tape at the same time - there's no way the tape could cause a delay.

[brianbuys]

I've been using panasonic camcorder for past couple years and my new HV30 just got delivered today! :hv20-smilie03:

i would say there's no difference except the life expectancy of the tapes (like with VHS) BUT from my experience, i found sony camcorders and panasonic camcorders record to and read from the same tape differently. For example, I took a tdk recorded tape from a sony camcorder and tried to import it to my PC using my panasonic camcorder. it would go crazy and it would take me a few hours or trying and re-trying sections to import just one tape.

But then, if i took a tdk recorded tape from my panasonic and try it out on the sony, it would work just fine.

So not sure if this has to do with brands, or quality, or whatnot, but does may mean a specific brand of tape may work best with a specific brand of camcorder?

[CycleWriter]

After reading much of this and other threads I feel compelled to interject something that seems to be lost on a number of people. Remember that we are talking about digital here. That means the recording of 1s and 0s. That means that there will be absolutely no difference in picture quality between one brand or type of tape and another when used in the same camera. The only difference will be in the susceptibility to dropouts and transport problems. Any issues with actual picture quality will be related to the camera and NOT the tape used to record with. All tapes are equally as good at picking up the data from the camera, but some are better at preventing dropouts or causing transport jams. That said, there is a difference in tapes that does not affect PQ, but can affect device life. More expensive tapes tend to use finer magnetic particles that cause less wear and tear on the record heads over time. They also often have better transport mechanisms that resist jamming better and put less wear on the camera's drive system. These considerations alone are often the best argument for using premium tapes, but PQ is a moot point as far as digital goes.

[meall]

After reading much of this and other threads I feel compelled to interject something that seems to be lost on a number of people. Remember that we are talking about digital here. That means the recording of 1s and 0s. That means that there will be absolutely no difference in picture quality between one brand or type of tape and another when used in the same camera. The only difference will be in the susceptibility to dropouts and transport problems. Any issues with actual picture quality will be related to the camera and NOT the tape used to record with. All tapes are equally as good at picking up the data from the camera, but some are better at preventing dropouts or causing transport jams. That said, there is a difference in tapes that does not affect PQ, but can affect device life. More expensive tapes tend to use finer magnetic particles that cause less wear and tear on the record heads over time. They also often have better transport mechanisms that resist jamming better and put less wear on the camera's drive system. These considerations alone are often the best argument for using premium tapes, but PQ is a moot point as far as digital goes.

So I guest I can go Wall Mart and buy tapes there as long as they are not "no name brand" and I will have no problem using them. The main recommendations I found in this thread is: keep the same brand, and buy a head tape cleaner of that same brand and you should be ready to go. Right?

[Lunchbox]

What he said is true about shooting multiple takes if possible. That's something we can learn from his post. On top of that, should shoot some b-roll footage too.

[Erik Bien]

DamoRais,

A few suggestions:

1. Buy a head cleaning cassette, preferably the same brand as the tapes you're using.
2. Don't reuse tapes.
3. My recollection of the endless discussion around here of 'which tape is better' is that users of Panasonic tapes are generally happier than users of Sony tapes. I'm a happy, mostly dropout-free Panasonic user.
4. Are you familiar with the saying "it's a poor workman who blames his tools"? If cleaning the heads and switching brands don't cure your problem, have it serviced or exchanged under Canon's warranty.

[meall]

Erik Bien,

So, does my Maxell are so bad compare to Panasonic? I have not found that brand yet (pana) in store nearby, but can look and return those Maxell if that is that bad!

[CycleWriter]

OK, it appears a follow-up is necessary.:hv20-smilie64:

As I said, with digital there is no difference in PQ from one brand to another. All you're recording is a stream of 1s and 0s. Back in the analog days, especially with music, tape formulations were a bigger deal. Not only did they affect quality (in the case of music they could impact the dynamic range significantly, bad tape=no highs and muddy lows), but companies went to great lengths to develop better formulations. Back then there were dozens of manufacturers (although BASF supplied the raw tape for most of them), but today there are so few because the tape is now an almost insignificant part of the equation. With digital the transport mechanism is the most important part. That said, there is some difference between cheap and premium tapes that makes spending more for better tape a good idea. Cheap tapes tend to be dirty, i.e. they lose more particles as they pass over the heads, capstan and pinch rollers. Over time, these particles can interfere with the smooth movement of the tape and create odd magnetic fields, which can also lead to dropouts. There is an abrasive aspect to dirty tapes, as well. Back in the day Maxell was considered a dirty tape. Unfortunately, they were considerably cheaper and therefore ubiquitous in retail outlets making them popular with consumers. I still shy away from all Maxell recording media because of my experience with them.

As was said, dropouts are a fact of life with ANY tape camcorder, regardless of price. The most you can hope for is that they are few and far between and that they rarely happen at a critical time in your recording. Any mechanized transport system is prone to recording errors, even film suffers from this. A simple voltage spike is sufficient to cause enough wow and flutter of the drive motor to result in a recording anomaly. The best defense is to use quality media and develop a regular cleaning routine. The vast positive responses of those using Panasonic media tells me that one should seriously consider following that lead.:hv20-smilie03:

[meall]

Back in the day Maxell was considered a dirty tape. Unfortunately, they were considerably cheaper and therefore ubiquitous in retail outlets making them popular with consumers.

OK, understood! They're going back to Wall Mart tomorrow!

Where those Pana tapes can be found in retails in Canadian stores? I just don't want to run all the city to search for one retailler ;)

[Lunchbox]

What does PQ mean, anyway, other than Province of Quebec ;) I've been trying to figure that out and could not get it!

Sorry.. Picture Quality

There's a PQ line of Panasonic tape. That means Professional Quality.

[meall]

Hi,

Finally bought today the sony premium tapes, as they are easier to find here in my (little) town. I returned the Maxell as recommended here.

So far, I may need to find a source for cheaper tapes in (or delivered) Canada...

I saw that clip with 4 tapes, and could not really see the differences in PQ.

[Lead]

I only got my HV30 yesterday and one of the first things I did was to look into which tapes to buy. I was a little annoyed that the camera didn't come with a tape (but I soon got over it) so settled on buying a single Panasonic DVM60 tape from my local AV shop to tide me over. It cost me £3.99!

I've now spent a few hours reading this thread, and others, and trawling the web for the best buys on tapes.

I've accepted the arguement on PQ, but still opted to buy the Panasonic AY-DVM63AMQ MASTER for other reasons.

I ended up getting them from here: APR Media Centre. (http://www.aprmedia.co.uk/product.php?pid=3373) They seemed to be the best value. (I'm in the UK.)

[chaos2k]

Im using the sony dvm60pl tapes basically because they are easily availible to me. from what ive read on this thread most people prefer the pana pq tapes.. I am happy with the PQ of the sony tape. but after reading this deabete on wet vs dry can anyone tell me if these sony tapes are going to DAMAGE? my hv20. if so ill switch brands but if its just a preference thing ill stay with the sonys since i can get them here without shipping cost..

Thanks
Brian

[chaos2k]

There is no picture quality difference in which tape you use. I'll let Cyclewrite tell you this

http://www.hv20.com/showthread.php?p=75015#post75015

I understand that Taky but my question was will the sony tapes "DAMAGE" the hv20 over time? If so then id chage brands.. but if the pana tapes are just out of preference then ill prob stick with sony only bacause i can get them here wihtout shipping

[Lunchbox]

From what you said, I don't think you understand


.. I am happy with the PQ of the sony tape...

Where did you read that Sony tapes will damage the head? It was just mixing different brands with wet/dry lub that clog the recording head.

I always enjoy buying from Amazon with free shipping and no sale tax.

[chaos2k]

ok i guess i should not of put that in there since i understand the quality is the same on all. but any input on if the sonys with the "wet" tape will cause damage?

ive read that some say sony is no longer wet, seems to be a debate

EDIT: i called canon canada and they recommend use dry tapes so now im gonna call sony and see if can put to rest that they use wet or dry. if they use wet anyone know places in Canada wiht decent shipping to get pana pq tapes?

Update: so i called sony Canada and they had no idea if its wet or dry

[darkprints]

ok i guess i should not of put that in there since i understand the quality is the same on all. but any input on if the sonys with the "wet" tape will cause damage?

ive read that some say sony is no longer wet, seems to be a debate

EDIT: i called canon canada and they recommend use dry tapes so now im gonna call sony and see if can put to rest that they use wet or dry. if they use wet anyone know places in Canada wiht decent shipping to get pana pq tapes?

Update: so i called sony Canada and they had no idea if its wet or dry

Some thoughts:

- Sony recommends Sony tapes.
- Panasonic recommends Panasonic tapes.
- Canon recommends Canon tapes.

- Does anyone really believe Sony would sell tape that damages heads?
- How long will people perpetuate the myth that Sony still uses wet lube?
- Has anyone looked at a Sony tape? Does it look wet?

- If switching brands causes head damage, all the rental houses would go broke.

- If you're concerned about switching brands, use a head cleaning tape first.

[jabloomf1230]

It's possible that most of these tapes are "badged" anyway. They probably are manufactured in the same factories in mainland China. The only things that are different are the jacket design and the tape specifications, both of which are dictated by the corporation wearing the "badge". Some of the cost differential is related to the prestige of the company name and some is related to the actual specifications. Trying to tease those two factors apart is very difficult. Hence most people are comfortable with the assumption that all mini DV tapes are equivalent.

[moya]

What is the difference b/t all the different tapes by the SAME manufacturer?
For example, one guy says "I use Panasonic PV tapes" someone else says "Oh no, the Panny PZ series is the best" and so on.

I bought a 5-pack of Panasonic tapes when I bought my HV30 (which I shot my first hour of HD video last night! Just the view outside my window...but at least I used the cam!).

The Panasonic tapes I have are marked like this on the back:

>PP<
AY-DVM60EJ

Is this a good tape? Crap tape? Why is your PZ series better than whatever series (PP?) mine is? Smaller magnetic particles? Better tape substrate quality? Ball bearings? (j/k)

I am thinking about only using one brand/type of tape in my HV30 to avoid dropouts/head contamination/problems. But I want to buy good stuff.

Any advice is appreciated. :)

[Mitosh]

I just picked up a HV30 at BestBuy and HD & non-HD Sony Tapes, I was under the impression HD was not needed, but the salesman assured me they were. As suspected, from this forum it is clear they are not required.

But I am not ready to use them yet (I will return the HD) after reading about the comments about Wet/Dry, I am sure using the sony's, I will be fine, as long as I stick with them.

But if I have not used any tape, what is the best option. Should I stick with dry so I don't have to worry about anything if for whatever reason I use another brand (non-dry but this isn't likely as I will just bulk up on tapes).

Someone commented Sony's are better if you want to rerecord on tapes, which is possible, but wouldn't be often.

In a nutshell, the tapes at BestBuy, are really expensive, so I will likely just order some. I am basically thinking about either the Panasonic or Sony. Both seem to be less than $3 so price is very good (about half what I have now).

I only want to make this decision once, especially if I drop a "wet" tape in.

Sony is purchasable locally, albeit expensive but I would be able to "shoot" tomorrow. If I go panasonic, I would most likely have to order online, but the camera is about 50 dollars cheaper (I got bestbuy down to $850 because I bought the warranty but then I found it for 56 cheaper on amazon).

I normally do not buy warranties, but I opt'd as it is dropage/water protection. Pretty much everything but stolen/lost.

The sony's I have are DVM60PRRRX/5 for $29.99.

What is the difference between PQ and AMQ?

[meall]

What is the difference between PQ and AMQ?

For PQ read further in this thread, you'll see that there is no difference at all. Why? Because it is digital recording (0s and 1s), no image a recorded really on your tapes.

[Mitosh]

For PQ read further in this thread, you'll see that there is no difference at all. Why? Because it is digital recording (0s and 1s), no image a recorded really on your tapes.

I gather that, but someone mentioned they were going from PQ to AMQ tapes, and I didn't know if it was because of a specific lube for re-recording or something along those lines. I accept the fact there is no difference between HD and non-HD and brands in terms of picture quality, that's common sense as it is digital. But I am concerned about "wet" tapes causing problems in general and if I switch to non-wet tapes, plus I am concerned with durability and drop out.

My biggest concern is if I should open the Sony tapes or just order some dry tapes online. It seems once you go Sony you need to stick with them. But a few people commented Sony may be better friendly to re-writing (and someone mentioned I think AMQ may be as well). So in the content of my question, there is a lot of differences I am concerned about.

[Mitosh]

I am leaning towards going with Sony tapes, although my initial concern is because they seem to be the only ones with "wet" tapes it may be a bad thing. But looking around different forums and different areas, it seems like Sony Premium tapes have a fairly good reputation. And it appears Canon tapes are also considered "wet", so it may be just fine.

It will also allow me to use it tomorrow when we go out with it the first time with my 11 month old son without having to wait for tapes in the mail even though they are 3x the price of mail order.

Unless someone comes up with something convincing by some time tomorrow afternoon, I am going to assume this is good enough choice as long as I am consistent with using Sony.

On another note, great thread and even more so great forum. As a new user who is just charging the first batteries, I can't believe how many mistakes I would have made if I did not find this forum.

I probably would have mixed Sony other tapes, or bought JVC (which I want to stay away from). It is likely I would have recorded on a tape more than once. And I would have been buying HD tapes as I wouldn't have known better, at least for a while as I do research.

[Lunchbox]

I always shoot with the 63 min tapes. Haven't tried the 83 min. But there're enough horror stories about 83 min giving extra load to the tape transport mechansim.

[CycleWriter]

I always shoot with the 63 min tapes. Haven't tried the 83 min. But there're enough horror stories about 83 min giving extra load to the tape transport mechansim.
I have also read that the 83 minute tapes are made thinner in order to take up the same amount of space in the shell and that this sometimes causes them to get stretched resulting in dropouts or playback/capture problems. I can't say if this is true, but it seems to make sense and is enough for me to stay away from them.

[alexta6]

1. Is it okay if i switch from Panasonic AY-DVM60EJ2 to DVM63PQ without cleaning the head?

I can't find the Panasonic DVM63PQ tapes anywhere in store (Bestbuy and Fry's) Does anyone know where you can get them for cheap in San Diego, CA? I wanted to order from Taky but my camcorder is arriving tomorrow so I want to test it out first.
So I got the Panasonic AY-DVM60EJ2.

2. Did I get the right head cleaner?

I also got the Panasonic AY-DVMCLA head cleaner , but when I read the instruction, it says that "Do not use cleaning tape more often than necesary. Frequent use may cause head damage." the Packagin also says that "Not for regular maintenance".

[cjcook]

...I need to have tapes of 83 minutes in some recording, most of the time I suppose the 63 minutes tapes should be just fine.

I'm wandering if the longer tapes are more rough on the HV30 motor?...


I asked Canon technical support this question a while back, and was told that you could use tapes up to 120 minutes.

[stevekom]

Hello people,

this is my first post here... I am waiting for my HV30 (PAL, as I live in Greece, Europe) to come to my hands in a few days.

I want to thank you all for the valuable information and your opinions. I read all this thread very very carefully and I learned a great deal...

Firstly you helped me decide what tapes to use on my new camcorder... I will go with the Panasonic Master MiniDV tapes (AY-DVM63AMQ), as I want the "presumed" best quality available on tapes...

Secondly, I learned all about wet/dry tapes... I didn't know that there is this issue and that the mixing of the two different kinds may clog the head... So, as I am always recording only once on my tapes, the Panasonic tapes are great for me.

One thing that I don't see to have been answered (even if a few here asked about it) is the following:

If you have used wet tapes for a long time with your camcorder and then you decide that it is best to switch to dry tapes, with what kind of cleaning tape should you clean your camcorder before you make a switch? A wet cleaning tape (ie. a Sony cleaning tape) or a dry cleaning tape (ie, a Panasonic cleaning tape if you will switch to Panasonic dry tapes)?

Let me make this question more specific, to my problem.

Apart from my new and soon awaited HV30, I also have a Canon XL2 (PAL) camcorder. I used (ignorant as I was) Sony (wet) tapes. After reading here all the useful things you wrote, I also want to switch to the Panasonic Master MiniDV tapes (AY-DVM63AMQ) for my XL2 too, in order to have uniformity between my two camcorders. What cleaning tape should I use to clean the heads of my XL2 camcorder? A Sony (wet) cleaning tape and then switch to the Panasonic tapes, or a Panasonic (dry) cleaning tape and then make the switch to the Panasonic tapes?

This issue is very important to me, as I use these camcorders also professionally and I need to keep them in top shape!!!

Please help me out here, though you will be also helping anyone with the same question with me...

I want to thank you all in advance for your patience to read my looooong post (hehe) and I hope that i will have an answer very soon... :)

Steve :hv20-smilie77:

[Bruce Morgan]

I use a very standard fuji tape because one braodcast engineer told me its abot how often you plan to rerun the tapeand that some of the standard tapes when run once are at the same quality level as the MASTER TAPES.

[khaga]

I'll throw in my 2 cents on the switching from Sony to Panasonic high end tapes...

I was a solid Sony man with my $1100 Digital 8 model which served me well for 7 years without ANY problems - dropouts or otherwise (still running by the way), and I predominantly used Sony tapes, but not always - never an issue.

So, when I purchased my HV20 back in Oct '07, I grabbed a pack of Sony Mini DV tapes without hesitation... HOWEVER, I experienced my first dropouts at the worst time - in the middle of recording a symphony... I was steamed to say the least. Happened AGAIN in another concert. I was DONE with Sony crap tapes for miniDV/HDV.

So to switch from Sony to Panasonic, I did the following:
1. bought both a Sony and Panasonic head cleaner tapes
2. ran the Sony cleaner for 10 secs
3. put in the standard Panasonic tapes and recorded some "stuff" for 30 mins
4. ran the Panasonic head cleaner for 10 secs
5. put in the AMQ high-end Panasonic tapes... AND NEVER LOOKED BACK!

so far, I have recorded 3 hours of symphonic concerts with NO dropouts on the AMQ tapes, and since they can be had for $5.99 at B&H, I now have a bunch of them. For less critical shoots, I am using the standard Panasonic tapes.

Hope this helps!! again, just my 2 cents (US dollars) :hv20-smilie03:

[SpectreFire]

Hey, I was just wondering, I've been using JVC tapes lately, I'm still on my first one, but I want to switch to Panasonic. Will there any problems with the switch?

[CycleWriter]

Hey, I was just wondering, I've been using JVC tapes lately, I'm still on my first one, but I want to switch to Panasonic. Will there any problems with the switch?

Use a dry head cleaner between switching tape brands and you should be fine.

[Mrpc9886]

Wet vs dry? Is it 1997?

I've switched between Panny and Sony (and the odd Maxell) with both an HV20, GL-1 and XL-1 without issues.

Here's some poop:
Now about wet vs. dry: No one is trying to cover this up. The real

disaster happened early in the days of mini dv when Sony shipped a

bunch of camcorders with one tape and then had no supply. Everyone had

to buy Panasonic tape and then disaster occurred. Since that time the

manufacturers have worked together to alleviate the problem -- after

all, you can choose what you put in your camcorder but if you're making

dubs for others, you don't get to choose what tape they use. So, the

problem is much less of an issue than it ever was.

From: http://www.pro-tape.com/Site/PRO-TAPE.html

(Try this in google: wet vs dry minidv tape) You won't find any site that still claims this is an issue. Now for the HD vs non-hdv....see the Pro-tape site again for basic information but again, Google is your friend.

I wonder if the wet vs dry is on Urbanlegends or Snopes yet....? Hmmm...

[David]

Wet vs dry? Is it 1997?

(Try this in google: wet vs dry minidv tape) You won't find any site that still claims this is an issue.

Gee, you're right, it's impossible to find any site that still claims this is an issue!!!! :hv20-smilie73:

http://www.taperesources.com/useful_info.html#why_clean_change
http://www.philpang.com/tips/minidv_lubricants.html
http://www.zenera.com/dvtape.html#mix_brands
http://thedvshow.com/faq-pro/index.php?action=article&cat_id=017&id=133
http://www.2-popforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=102386
http://www.jakeludington.com/camcorder/20070513_using_minidv_tapes_in_an_hdv_camcorder.ht ml

[jaimepresto]

So, seems like everything has been covered, but I have a question; I've just started using my HV30, with Panasonic PQ tapes. I'm thinking, though, that it's highly unlikely I'll be able to find these in a gas station when I'm in the middle of nowhere. Regular panasonics, though, different story; pretty much ubiquitous. Is there any reason to worry about switching back and forth between PQs and the standard DVC tapes you find everywhere? I recognize that dropouts happen, no picture difference etc etc. I'd prefer not to spend the money on PQs for experiments and casual shooting, and I'm wondering if such practice would be detrimental to the camera, accepting, as I do, that dropouts are more likely with consumer grade tapes.

[CycleWriter]

My comment was regarding head cleaners. Canon specifically says not to use wet cleaners in the HV20/30.

[markone]

We use only Panasonic AMQ-Master 63 Mini DV tapes For both SD and HDV shooting and the Panasonic AMQ-Master Large Shell tapes for archiving finished productions, never had any problems, can count the drop-outs over ten years on one hand, and have had long head life in all our cameras and studio decks... My advice is pick a brand and stick with it.. there is a difference between Panasonic/JVC and Sony/Maxell tapes.. call it wet-vs-dry, or whatever. But we do not mix manufacturers brands, and when clients bring in tapes other than ours, we play them back for ingest in a "disposable" deck.

We use Sony and Fuji for our BetaSP stock, Fuji for our D-9 stock and Panasonic with our DVCPro deck..

Also use head cleaners sparingly, they are abrasive and over use can damage your heads.

Mark Carey
www.markoneHD.com

[jaimepresto]

So to bump my previous post....will alternating PQs and regular consumer panasonic tapes do my camera any harm?

[Lunchbox]

The only harmful thing is you switch different brands that uses wet and dry lub. There're also sites reported that Sony no longer manufacture wet lub type tape.

[jaimepresto]

The only harmful thing is you switch different brands that uses wet and dry lub. There're also sites reported that Sony no longer manufacture wet lub type tape.

And as far as I understand it, Panasonic tapes are dry, across their whole product line?

[cazz77]

Are there any big differences between tape brands and should I spend the extra cash on HD tapes or do standard tapes work fine? Thanks in advance.

Scott

BTW..........This is a great forum and I can't wait for my new HV20. It should be here tomorrow. :hv20-smilie45:

Its very simple you can brake all the semantics from the technical recontruction ability of these camcorders and only come to the conclusion that to the naked eye there would be little to no difference between an expensive hd tape and a run of the mill MiniDv tape you can get at Wal-Mart,But this is true if Im filming a project for money or filming an Indie feature for a film festival Im going to use an expensive Hd tape.For shooting a birthday or trip to a beach Im going to use A cheap consumer tape SIMPLE BUDGETING:).Im mean its realy common sence and yes and expensive tape is going to do two things A insure the media thats recorded is recorded safely on the best meduim format(preventing "drop frames" and reducing digital artifacting regardless of how minimal it is in commparison) and believe it or not in the long run its going to make less confusion for your commuterto process and prevent it from over working running(crashing) in order to compensate for all error correction protocal thats was processed and as we all know the ALREADY OVERLY COMPRESSED HD footage is a living breathing conundrum for a computer to digest LoL!I mean they make whole tutorials on the subject and this one way to eleminate the HD EDTING BLUES also hd tape has a better visual patina to it(subjectively)

-Charlie

[CycleWriter]

also hd tape has a better visual patina to it(subjectively)

-Charlie
Please explain how, in the process of simply recording 1s and 0s, a tape is able to impart "visual patina" to that recording?:hv20-smilie87:

[Kyuss]

Please explain how, in the process of simply recording 1s and 0s, a tape is able to impart "visual patina" to that recording?:hv20-smilie87:

Touche!

[Ross11988]

A noob question. I have my camera setting on HD30 does that mean I can record on standered MiniDV or does it mean I can only film on HD MiniDV?

[Lunchbox]

The entire thread here is to tell you you don't have to buy HD grade mini-dv tape for HD video recording. Please read it as well as the FAQ

http://www.hv20.com/showthread.php?t=3058

Thanks

[milespapineau]

you should really use the 60minute panasonic tapes, and NEVER EVER record over old tapes. they are $1.79 from recordingstore.com, can't beat that.

~ crobs808

P.S. _ in the over 100 weddings we've filmes (2 camera, so like 6 tapes per wedding) we have YET to have a drop out using these tapes, so all that talk about error is a moot point if you get these. same with TaiyoYuden DVDs...there is a best brand for every piece of hardware.

can you explain to me why you should never record over old footage? is it bad for the actual camera? or just because it degrades the quality of your footage.
Because i have this one tape that i have recorded over like 60+ times. Its just like a practise tape.

[Chicken Warrior]

can you explain to me why you should never record over old footage? is it bad for the actual camera? or just because it degrades the quality of your footage.
Because i have this one tape that i have recorded over like 60+ times. Its just like a practise tape.

I would like an answer to this as well.

[Lunchbox]

I did it all the time. Most of the tapes I recorded over at least twice. It's all digital. there's no degradation or image quality.

[Nacho]

I would like an answer to this as well.

The probability of getting dropouts is higher - at least in my experience the only dropouts I've ever got were recording over.

[CycleWriter]

Also there is a diffrence in colour in Standered and HD, the HD is way more vibarent.

That's absolute hogwash. The tape is merely recording 1s and 0s. It is impossible to see any difference in color or picture quality between brands of tape in a digital camera. That's like saying one brand of CompactFlash is better for photographs than another. The only difference is in reliability, durability and quality of the transfer mechanism and the tape's resistance to errors (dropouts). There is absolutely no difference in the quality of the recorded material and any manufacturer that claims so is lying through their teeth.

[bluegrass]

That's absolute hogwash. The tape is merely recording 1s and 0s. It is impossible to see any difference in color or picture quality between brands of tape in a digital camera. That's like saying one brand of CompactFlash is better for photographs than another. The only difference is in reliability, durability and quality of the transfer mechanism and the tape's resistance to errors (dropouts). There is absolutely no difference in the quality of the recorded material and any manufacturer that claims so is lying through their teeth.

Maybe Maxim is talking about the color of the plastic case of the tape. I have seen some cases that have a lot more vibrant color. I've never bought or even seen an HD minidv tape so I can't comment on them except that they are a rip off.

[CycleWriter]

Maybe Maxim is talking about the color of the plastic case of the tape. I have seen some cases that have a lot more vibrant color. I've never bought or even seen an HD minidv tape so I can't comment on them except that they are a rip off.

Hmm...I didn't even consider the case color. I know Sony likes to offer DVD and Minidisc media in "flavors," but do they claim you can actually taste the difference?:hv20-smilie84:

[onefortynine]

NEVER EVER record over old tapes.

Hi all im a brand newbie here. just got my hv30 yesterday. Im in ireland so im on a PAL hv30. very impressed with the quality. still trying to get my head round all the settings :hv20-smilie03:

i just have a question about this crobs. why should i never record over an old tape?
do mean one i found in a drawer or anything that has been used once? i bought my tapes yesterday, almost filled one and would like to re use it now i have transferred it to pc. is this ok?

theyre not that cheap here. around $40 for 5 tapes so i would like to be able to re use them.

[Lunchbox]

I always re-record tape for at least 3 times. Then will use the tape for the final edited video as achive. I don't see any reason why cannot reuse old tape.

[onefortynine]

The probability of getting dropouts is higher - at least in my experience the only dropouts I've ever got were recording over.

is there a way to format the tape before re recording so its like a fresh tape or is it just a case of rewind to the start and off u go?

[CycleWriter]

is there a way to format the tape before re recording so its like a fresh tape or is it just a case of rewind to the start and off u go?

You can do what is called "striping the tape." This is recording the tape black with the lens covered. It does two things: It puts unbroken timecode on the tape to prevent capture errors, and it aligns the magnetic particles on the tape helping prevent recording errors.

Whether both benefits are worth the extra wear and tear on the transport mechanism and heads is debatable.

[onefortynine]

You can do what is called "striping the tape." This is recording the tape black with the lens covered. It does two things: It puts unbroken timecode on the tape to prevent capture errors, and it aligns the magnetic particles on the tape helping prevent recording errors.

Whether both benefits are worth the extra wear and tear on the transport mechanism and heads is debatable.

so i may get errors re-using the tape if i dont? rare though right? :hv20-smilie15:

[previdman]

Blackstriping was used in analogue editing so the decks wouldn't lose 'sync.' As CW said, it provided for an unbroken timecode. Very important in old analogue editing.

And it also provided for 'cleaner' edits without 'flagging' because of the stable tracks. We would always blackstripe our tapes before editing, but did so with a blackburst signal generator. Covering the lens of your camera has the same effect and is a LOT cheaper. :hv20-smilie87:

With digital capture and editing today and depending on your software, it doesn't seem to make much difference or have much advantage. At least I haven't noticed any.

[HueyNRolf]

On blacking (striping), this is my understanding, based on what someone told me:

If you review a tape and resume shooting, the timecode will reset to zero at the point you've forwarded to after reviewing. This can cause problems with a batch capture since there'll be more than one timecode reference to a given I and O point. Blacking or striping the tape gives you an uninterrupted time code and should avoid this problem. Stopping and starting the camera doesn't reset the timecode so blacking shouldn't be necessary if you don't review your tape, before it's full, or you don't intend to do a batch capture.

[BarteS]

Most members of this forum do use Panasonic, but to the ones in doubt. For the love of God, please do use Panasonic. The tapes are not very expensive but can save you a major headage (and besides, why, if you made it to this forum, go for an other tape if most people on this forum use Panasonic).
Anyway, bad, real bad experience with the tapes the seller of my camera gave, Fuji DVM60. It was the first tape I used. As soon as I came across a big shop I got myself a Panasonic AY-DVM63PQ. Got back from holiday, first tape (Fuji) messed up! The movie stops from time to time. The Panasonic tapes don't (all 9 of them). Could be jumping to conclusions, but I don't trust it and I don't want to try if there is a tape that does work.
(I'm off now, capturing the Fuji tape to hdd and write it back to a Panasonic. If I succeed, Fuji...burn baby burn!)

[The Dark Shake]

Currently loving my Panasonic AY-DVM63PQ's; after using crappy Maxell and JVC tapes for so long, these are like a godsend.

[butters83]

Is there any difference between tapes with model name DVM vs DVME?

[CycleWriter]

Is there any difference between tapes with model name DVM vs DVME?

I believe the DVME are extended length, 83 minute tapes.

[butters83]

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/home?O=sort&A=search&Q=&sortDrop=Brand%3A+A+to+Z&bl=&atl=&pn=1&st=categoryNavigation&mnp=0.0&mxp=0.0&sv=4121&bhs=t&shs=&ac=&fi=all&pn=1&ci=4121&cmpsrch=&cltp=&clsgr=

There are two Canon tapes with DVME in the model name - a 60 minute and an 80 minute.

[butters83]

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/home?O=sort&A=search&Q=&sortDrop=Brand%3A+A+to+Z&bl=&atl=&pn=1&st=categoryNavigation&mnp=0.0&mxp=0.0&sv=4121&bhs=t&shs=&ac=&fi=all&pn=1&ci=4121&cmpsrch=&cltp=&clsgr=

Canon has a 60 minute tape that labeled as DVME. I was curious if this denotes a quality difference.

Also, why does Canon charge so much for their 60 minute tape, as compared to the rest of them on that page?

[CycleWriter]

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/home?O=sort&A=search&Q=&sortDrop=Brand%3A+A+to+Z&bl=&atl=&pn=1&st=categoryNavigation&mnp=0.0&mxp=0.0&sv=4121&bhs=t&shs=&ac=&fi=all&pn=1&ci=4121&cmpsrch=&cltp=&clsgr=

There are two Canon tapes with DVME in the model name - a 60 minute and an 80 minute.

I wouldn't go by a retailer's product designation. According to the Panasonic website there is no DVME tape listed.
http://www.panasonic.com/business/provideo/cat_tape_media.asp
That may be B&H's in-house designation to differentiate the 60 from the 80 minute tapes.

[CycleWriter]

Any good as to why Canon charges so much? From everything I read, the only real difference form tape to tape is dropout resistance. Is this tape just more likely to be highly re-recordable without degradation?

I think everything we know is already in this thread. Anything else will probably require you to contact the manufacturer.

[Netguru]

I'm sure that the Canon tape is a high quality tape. I'm also pretty sure that it is manufactured for Canon by one of the leading tape manufacturers. Personally I would not spend the extra money, just because it has a Canon label on it.

BTW, the "ME" means Metal Evaporated.

Michael

[bluegrass]

I'm going to give Panasonic minidv tapes a try. I just ordered 50 of AYDVM63PQs from B&H for $3.49 each. I will probably be using at least half of them next week at a big bluegrass festival. I have been using Sony minidv tapes for about 4 years now. I think I have averaged about one or two dropouts per tape, using Sonys since I first bought my HV20 a year and a half ago.

I will let you know if I see a marked improvement with the Panasonic tapes over the Sonys I have been using. They do cost a dollar each more, so I hope to get some benefit out of the extra dollar. Since know one seems to know if the Sony or Panasonic tapes or wet or dry, I ordered a Panasonic tape cleaner along with the tapes. I thought I would go ahead and run the tape cleaner through once or twice before using the new Pani tapes.

[Netguru]

guys, any idea if JVC minidv tapes are any good? there are some 60 min "DVC" branded JVC minidvs for sale in my neighbourhood for around 1-2 bucks each

It depends on which tapes. I've used the higher end DVM63ME and they work well. I personally don't like the lower end DVM60.

Michael

[Rumpelgeist]

guys, any idea if JVC minidv tapes are any good? there are some 60 min "DVC" branded JVC minidvs for sale in my neighbourhood for around 1-2 bucks each
DVC is not a brand, it is a type. All MiniDV cassettes are DVCs.

[HueyNRolf]

I'm sorry :hv20-smilie15:


There should be a summary in the first post! :hv20-smilie29:

That would involve someone reading all of this and writing one :(

I must admit that I also haven't read all of this thread, so here's my ten cents:

Premium quality tapes are a con, just like high-quality HDMI cables. The only issue to consider is reliability; drop outs, breaks etc.

Stick with a known brand, Panasonic, JVC etc., I use TDK. Get the cheap ones (about $3.00 US), be sure to pack (forward and rewind) them and you'll be fine.

Happy shooting,
HnR

[derek4iLL]

I use Panny mqs for paid gigs and pqs for fun. I get dropouts with pqs occasionally but they are only $3 a pop and the mqs are $7 so whatever.

Dont use sony tapes or canon cause they are made by sony. Wet lube will mess up your heads and the price messes with your real head.

Panasonic manufactures pretty much every other brand of tape and then it is rebranded.

[rottenpuppets]

I've been using the Panasonic AY-DVM63HD tapes so far.. This is going to be a heavy tape expense once I get my house move completed and get my studio setup. I did 1.5 tapes yesterday just horsing around getting more greenscreen footage stockpiled for my shorts. It's like 22$ for 2 tapes at the local Bestbuy. I do not re-use tapes. I save everything for archival purposes. I don't hit rewind to 'save tape' or any of that stuff. I just use it until it's done and then go to the next one. I pull the footage into the computer once and then I update the label for anything else I shot on it and put them away for now in a drawer (i'll get a real storage case soon).

I'm not a full blown production company like a lot of you folks doing 10-20 tapes a weekend so buying 100 tapes @ 5.99$ each is not an option for me. Especially while in the middle of the move I have nowhere to keep em!! I'm for now at least just picking up the best I can locally at Bestbuy or anywhere Panasonic tapes are sold. I used them with my old 3CCD Panny camera setup and figured why change a good thing.

So my question would be to the masses.. If i'm already using the AY-DVM63HD tapes would it be a noticeable quality difference (remember mostly greenscreen work here and simple sets in the future with not much moving parts but the actors) if I bump down to the AY-DVM60EJ6S tapes that come in the 6 pack that I've been using for a few years with my Panny camera? My main worry / concern is why are the HD branded tapes 63 minutes and the older tapes only 60 minutes. Is that purely a length of tape situation, or is it due to a different media thickness that the HD camera requires? Maybe they're just giving that extra 3min of tape cause they know they got you by the jewels @ 11.99/tape retail.

This was an amazing thread to read I learned far more than expected the past hour sitting here reading this all! And yet I somehow had a question haha! -Steve

*Update* - I'm not sure if the sale is still going on but BestBuy but they had AY-DVM63HD 2 packs for 14.99$. Not a bad deal for a quick local pickup :) I think after reading everything a second time I'm going to stick with these tapes and maybe try out some of the pro-caliber ones mentioned in this thread.

[Krane]

That would involve someone reading all of this and writing one :(

I must admit that I also haven't read all of this thread, so here's my ten cents:

Premium quality tapes are a con, just like high-quality HDMI cables. The only issue to consider is reliability; drop outs, breaks etc.Which is directly related to tape quality!


Stick with a known brand, Panasonic, JVC etc., I use TDK. Get the cheap ones (about $3.00 US), be sure to pack (forward and rewind) them and you'll be fine.Unfortunately, my experience with TDK has not been as favorable. I suppose they've made improvements since I last used them?


Happy shooting,
HnRAlso I must say you're not being entirely fair to say the premium tapes are a con. Perhaps they'd be better described as overkill for everyday application? Sill, if you intend to archive your tapes, the premium brands would be the best choice.
Is there anyone hear who decides to spend the extra money on the Canon miniDV tapes? If so, would you recommend spending the extra cash, or is Canon just charging far too much money for their 60 minute tape?Yes, if the footage is important, and you intend to archive. And Yes! You pay extra for the Canon lable.

[HueyNRolf]

Yes, if the footage is important, and you intend to archive. And Yes! You pay extra for the Canon lable.

Krane, do you know who makes those tapes with the 'Canon label' on?

Cheers,
-HnR

[CycleWriter]

Newsflash: BASF makes the substrate for about 85% of all the tape brands out there, name brand or cheapie. Formulations and particle concentrations may differ by brand, but the basic tape is about the same no matter the cost of the finished tape product.

[HueyNRolf]

CycleWriter,

I had suspected that most DV tapes came from few OEMs and your claim that 85% of all stock being produced by one maker seemed quite reasonable, however are you sure about BASF?

I did a quick check and came up blank (forgive the pun).

BASF is German chemical company. The magnetic tape operation was farmed out to a French company, Agfa-Gevaert, which it acquired in 1991 and named it BASF Magnetics. This operation was sold to a Korean textile company in 1997 and renamed EMTEC which filed for bankruptcy in 2003.

Some of EMTEC's assets were purchased by The Dexxon Group (France), mainly the EMTEC brand. As of 2004 The Dexxon Group employed 150 people.

I was thinking about companies like Hitachi and TDK, with a track record in tape manufacture. Back in the 70s there was Memorex, which launched audio cassettes with the famous Ella Fitzgerald ad,. but Memorex got out of the tape business.

[John Penney]

Just before I made the decision a few weeks ago to opt for a HV 30 over a Sony HDR-HC9, I researched on the useage of mini dv tape qualities and coming from the consumer analogue world way back when Sony Hi8 metal tapes gave so many problems and being involved in the computer world I did wonder what the manufacturers could offer in the form of HDV tapes considering they are in fact used for digital information. The helical scanning in the HV 30 of course uses the same basic equipment as standard dv but has to pick up considerably more information from the tape with HDV, any low particle count on the tape would certainly cause error correction to kick in and at worst dropouts and artifacts. I would assume that HDV tapes are coated with slightly finer particles and go through more discerning error detection checks. Canon states: for special events we recommend HDV tapes (or words to that effect). Having said that I have been using a Panasonic DVC ME DVM60 in HDV mode and also transfered it to a Mac PPC laptop with no problems, no sign of any glitches so far.
I can imagine that most users will have few problems with normal cooking dv tapes but you take the risk, if part of the tape is weak HDV will show it up immmediately.

[HueyNRolf]

Hey John, welcome aboard!

It is reasonable to assume that HDV tapes offer the consumer quality and value for money. Another reasonable assumption is that the supplier is ripping off its customers with sharp branding.

At $18.95 a slice, for the Sony HD tape, I prefer the latter assumption.

Happy shooting with your new HV 30.

Cheers,
HnR

[sonne]

When I first got my hv20, I used ordinary mini dv tapes to videotape footage. Then, I thought the sonys HDV tapes would probably look better since they were HD and more expensive. Everytime I used a different brand or different kind, the camera says "Tape heads need cleaned" or something like that ... so I stuck with the sony's, and am kind of regretting I did cause they're expensive and I'm poor. I would like to go back to regular tapes, but am afraid of messing up the camera because of the "wet"/"dry" tape makeup, and different lubricants used in different tapes. Has anyone tried to change tapes?

[thatonejonguy]

Honestly you should find one type of tapes you like and use those exclusively (either wet or dry lube). Swapping back and forth between different types can cause premature fatigue on the heads. HOWEVER, if you need to switch types, run a head cleaning tape for 10 seconds before swapping (please try to limit the head cleaner to 1 use per 50 hours on the heads as it is abrasive!). I personally prefer the dry tapes.

[HueyNRolf]

...and make sure the tape cleaner is a 'DRY' type. According to the manual, 'WET' type can damage the camera.

HnR

[somethingtohide]

This isn't really about which tape to buy, but how many.

Reading around here quite a bit before I buy my hv20, I thought I read somewhere that using the same tape over and over could damage the camera and result in cleaning more.

How is this true? I have a miniDV tape from last year while I was in high school video news class and was wondering if I could use that one? And only that one. I don't plan on shooting TONS and TONS of video. I've got one project I plan on shooting which might total to be more than 30 minutes of film (in a perfect world with no mistakes) but it's not all in one day. It would be like:

Shoot as much as we can
Go home
Import
Organize
Edit a little
Shoot again

So does this mean I'd need multiple tapes to keep the camera up? Instead of just rewinding and recording over the previous footage?

[gorebs]

Am currently waiting for delivery of my HV30 and have been examining this forum for info about the camcorder. I have used Sony, Panasonic, TDK, JVC, and many other brands of miniDV tape. I currently use Panasonic 3ccd camcorders and tape local sports events for a local video company to be aired on the local cable channel. My current workhorse camcorder has been used constantly for the last 2 years. A great camcorder. They provide the tapes (83 minutes tapes) and I have yet to experience any dropouts or have tapehead or transport problems. The tapes they provide are of various brands and many have been taped on before. Personally I don't think there is an issue with tape brands (wet vs dry) anymore. I am looking forward to getting the HV30 and entering into the HD world. This is a really great site for camcorder info!

[CycleWriter]

Personally I don't think there is an issue with tape brands (wet vs dry) anymore.

The personal experiences of many in here would tend to disagree with you.

[Mel]

Just wondering how long the original recorded tapes will last under good conditions.

[m83]

http://letmegooglethatforyou.com/?q=What+is+the+life+of+a+mini+DV+tape%3F

:)

[rur]

Can someone suggest the best HD tape format for backing up a project. I have a hard drive backup already, but want to export the project onto videotape as well for backup.

Should you use regular HDV mini-DV tape when you export from FCP, or will you lose quality? Is there a better, higher quality HD tape you should use?

Regards.

[CycleWriter]

Can someone suggest the best HD tape format for backing up a project. I have a hard drive backup already, but want to export the project onto videotape as well for backup.

Should you use regular HDV mini-DV tape when you export from FCP, or will you lose quality? Is there a better, higher quality HD tape you should use?

Regards.
In reading this thread it should be obvious that there is no difference in picture quality between MiniDV and HDV tapes, it's all digital data. I woulkd also not expect to see much difference in the longevity of one tape type to another. If you use quality tape from a major brand for your original recording, then you already have the best backup medium possible. Just store your original tapes in a safe place and do not reuse them. If you want to archive your edited projects back to tape, then the same brand/type you originally used should be fine.

[Dave88LX]

OK I have thoroughly read through the threads and posts on here about the sins of reusing MiniDV tapes, although multiple people have said that they have reused them without issue.

My question has to do with the HV30s ability to use AV/IN, to bring in analog video/audio and record it to MiniDV. Have a bunch of old home movies on VHS, and would like to bring these into the computer for backup. I realize that DVD is not the last format that things will ever be backed up in, and have also read that tape is the best format at this time for backup.

I will be building a ~4TB RAID5 media server here in the future, which I will use to store my videos on, as well as a DVD backup stored here, and one at my mother's house. The VHS tapes are nearing 20 years old already, and I'd like to get them off of there.

I do not want to waste one MiniDV tape to back up each VHS tape, I just want to transfer everything to the PC, and back it up on DVD. Will still have the VHS backup.

So, is there anything wrong with reusing the tapes for this purpose? It would save from having to buy an input card for the PC, not that my PC would even keep up with analog capture from a VCR.

Thoughts? Better options?

Thanks.
- Dave

[ronstew]

Try a heading like "Tape reuse while transferring from VHS to my PC via my HV30?"

Anyway, why not reuse the tapes, as long as you can periodically check that there are no data errors? This is just VHS you are transferring. You can redo any tapes that transfer poorly.

Consider this, though: Every hour you transfer this way will require two hours of HV30 time.

Ron

[CycleWriter]

OK I have thoroughly read through the threads and posts on here about the sins of reusing MiniDV tapes, although multiple people have said that they have reused them without issue.

My question has to do with the HV30s ability to use AV/IN, to bring in analog video/audio and record it to MiniDV. Have a bunch of old home movies on VHS, and would like to bring these into the computer for backup. I realize that DVD is not the last format that things will ever be backed up in, and have also read that tape is the best format at this time for backup.

I will be building a ~4TB RAID5 media server here in the future, which I will use to store my videos on, as well as a DVD backup stored here, and one at my mother's house. The VHS tapes are nearing 20 years old already, and I'd like to get them off of there.

I do not want to waste one MiniDV tape to back up each VHS tape, I just want to transfer everything to the PC, and back it up on DVD. Will still have the VHS backup.

So, is there anything wrong with reusing the tapes for this purpose? It would save from having to buy an input card for the PC, not that my PC would even keep up with analog capture from a VCR.

Thoughts? Better options?

Thanks.
- Dave

While you certainly could do this, it is not your best option. For one, assuming your VHS tapes were recorded in SP mode it would take 2 MiniDv tapes for every one VHS. That means splitting the VHS content across two tapes. Secondly, you would be putting a lot of wear and tear on your HV as a dubbing deck and not as a camera. That's 2 hours of use per VHS tape to transfer to MiniDV and another 2 hours of use to capture that content to the PC. Depending on how many VHS tapes you plan to archive this way you could significantly reduce the overall life of your HV.

I found it much easier to use the RCA inputs on my TV tuner card (Vista Media Center PC) to connect my VCR and record directly to the PC using Cyberlink's Power Director 7 (Vegas does not support analog inputs). I still have to transfer VHS in real time, but I can do batch captures using timecode and walk away to do something else while it transfers. The resulting MPG2 files are easy to edit and create DVDs from or archive onto a hard drive. No wear on my HV, no need for additional MiniDV tapes. BTW, magnetic tape has an average shelf life of 50+ years, so your concerns for the original VHS tapes may be misplaced so long as they are stored properly and run through (FF/REW) periodically to prevent sticking.

[Lunchbox]

The Panasonic PQ tapes seem to be a popular choice among here.

[Rizzice]

So I just got my HV30, and usually I record myself training martial arts for my personal reference.. I'm wondering if it's bad for the quality of the tape/camcorder to reuse tapes, or if there are any other notable negative effects from doing so?

I just have no need to keep the footage, and have found it much more economical to re-use. However, if it's damaging my new camcorder or quality in any way, it's probably worth it for me to spend some extra time/cash.

Thanks!

[Krane]

Awesome, so those pricey HDV tapes aren't worth it. Does anyone have any suggestion for some reliable and fairly economic tapes for my HV30?

The thing is, now that I know I only want to use a certain brand, I kind of want to make the brand I use one of the best/most reliable.Because of all this hooplah about wasting money on premium tapes, I gave in to purchasing bargan quality to test it. After all, who woudn't want to save money?

I can now say that the pro tapes do have a fine quality, as well as more vivid and richer color.

That said, I must also point out that it depends on monitor that you'll be using since you can't see the improvement on a regular tv. In additon, the difference isn't dramatic--but is recognizable.

So unless what you're taping has to be the absolute best quality, bargan tapes would still be the better choice, especially considering pro tapes higher mark-up in price.

[bluesgeek]

How can the quality of the digital tape affect the color quality of the analog end product?

[bluesgeek]

I don't think that's correct. 1s and 0s don't have quality. They are either recorded or not. If the data don't get recorded because of bad tape, then there is a dropout, but if they are recorded, then the quality of the video and audio should should be the same, regardless the medium that recorded the data.

I use pro quality tape for any shoot where I need to minimize the potential for lost data do to dropouts. Otherwise I use Panasonic AMQ.

[paulandre]

The Panasonic PQ tapes seem to be a popular choice among here.

yeup. my favorite. http://photosnag.com/img/1858/y08m1110mhmd/2.gif

[CycleWriter]

Because of all this hooplah about wasting money on premium tapes, I gave in to purchasing bargan quality to test it. After all, who woudn't want to save money?

I can now say that the pro tapes do have a fine quality, as well as more vivid and richer color.

That said, I must also point out that it depends on monitor that you'll be using since you can't see the improvement on a regular tv. In additon, the difference isn't dramatic--but is recognizable.

So unless what you're taping has to be the absolute best quality, bargan tapes would still be the better choice, especially considering pro tapes higher mark-up in price.

***ALERT*** For anyone that doesn't take the time to read this WHOLE thread, the above comments are hogwash and not to be taken seriously. THERE IS NO PICTURE QUALITY DIFFERENCE BETWEEN TAPES AND BRANDS WHEN SHOOTING DIGITALLY. None, zero, zilch, nada, nein. The only difference is in the occurence of dropouts, potential for tape mechanism failure, and storage longevity. Saying that there is a picture quality difference between tapes is like saying that one media card records better looking pictures than another. Or that one hard drive stores your photos better than another.

The days of tape differences mattering to the recorded material's quality died with VHS, Hi-8 and cassette audio, all of which use analog signals. Digital signals (and therefore playback) are NOT enhanced/degraded by the tape's quality, or lack thereof, as far as picture quality goes. Cheap tapes may increase your risk for dropouts or tape transport failures, but a more expensive tape will not give you better picture quality. That is all.:hv20-smilie64:

[RobbyHV]

It takes a while but after reading many threads on HV20.com I have come to the conclusion that Sony no longer uses a wet lubricant with there MDV or HDV tapes. Is this true?

I wish some expert would chime in and let us all know because it is very hard to determine what information is the most accurate. :hv20-smilie51:

I would of posted this to another thread.... but I think this is the most important thing to figure out when you first start using your new HV30/HV20. That is what tape to use and to try and stick with that one tape for the life of the HV30/HV20.

[dmfreeman]

RobbyHV

Many years ago, Sony marketed a cleaning tape that came with a bottle of solvent solution that was put into the cleaning mechanism. That was perhaps 15 or 20 years back. At this point, at least to my knowlege, all head cleaners are "Dry". When using them, the only issue is to not run the cleaning tape for too long a period of time as the dry cleaning tape can cause excessive wear on the recording heads if you are not careful.

Denny

[Krane]

***ALERT*** For anyone that doesn't take the time to read this WHOLE thread, the above comments are hogwash and not to be taken seriously. THERE IS NO PICTURE QUALITY DIFFERENCE BETWEEN TAPES AND BRANDS WHEN SHOOTING DIGITALLY. None, zero, zilch, nada, nein. The only difference is in the occurence of dropouts, potential for tape mechanism failure, and storage longevity. Saying that there is a picture quality difference between tapes is like saying that one media card records better looking pictures than another. Or that one hard drive stores your photos better than another.

The days of tape differences mattering to the recorded material's quality died with VHS, Hi-8 and cassette audio, all of which use analog signals. Digital signals (and therefore playback) are NOT enhanced/degraded by the tape's quality, or lack thereof, as far as picture quality goes. Cheap tapes may increase your risk for dropouts or tape transport failures, but a more expensive tape will not give you better picture quality. That is all.:hv20-smilie64:I wan't making a purely scientific statement, ss much as I was making a subjective one. In addition, I'm not selling anything so I have no reason to be misleading. Still, I know a digital signal is either on or off, but that doesn't tell the whole story of how digital video is recorded. I won't pretend to know how it all works from start to finish, but I know what I see. And to my eye, there is a difference.

Incidentally, has anyone that disagrees actually done the back to back test?

One more thing, you should also check out Panasonic's Advanced Master (http://www.tapeandmedia.com/panasonic_mini_dv_tape_63_amq.asp) tape claims, if I'm in error, I'm in good company. Then again, they do have an agenda.

[fishops]

I wan't making a purely scientific statement, ss much as I was making a subjective one. In addition, I'm not selling anything so I have no reason to be misleading. Still, I know a digital signal is either on or off, but that doesn't tell the whole story of how digital video is recorded. I won't pretend to know how it all works from start to finish, but I know what I see. And to my eye, there is a difference.

Then you are hallucinating.


Incidentally, has anyone that disagrees actually done the back to back test?

There's no point. Either the data is correctly recorded onto the tape or it isn't. It is physically and technically impossible for different types of magnetic tape to visibly affect the image quality of a digital video stream aside from reliability and dropouts. If you feel like wasting your time, go ahead.


One more thing, you should also check out Panasonic's Advanced Master (http://www.tapeandmedia.com/panasonic_mini_dv_tape_63_amq.asp) tape claims, if I'm in error, I'm in good company. Then again, they do have an agenda.

Nowhere on that page do they claim that their tape has any bearing whatsoever on the image quality of the footage recorded onto it.

[CycleWriter]

RobbyHV

Many years ago, Sony marketed a cleaning tape that came with a bottle of solvent solution that was put into the cleaning mechanism. That was perhaps 15 or 20 years back. At this point, at least to my knowlege, all head cleaners are "Dry". When using them, the only issue is to not run the cleaning tape for too long a period of time as the dry cleaning tape can cause excessive wear on the recording heads if you are not careful.

Denny

The discussion was not about cleaning tapes, but the lubricant used in blank tapes. Sony's have long been claimed to use a wet lubricant, which is advised against using in the HV. Whether it is true that Sony still uses a wet lubricant in their tapes is up for debate, though. We do know that Panasonic does not.

[CycleWriter]

Nowhere on that page do they claim that their tape has any bearing whatsoever on the image quality of the footage recorded onto it.

Nope. And if any manufacturer could prove otherwise they would be screaming it from every rooftop they could get to.:hv20-smilie84:

[Krane]

Then you are hallucinating.LOL, I've alway though myself to focused to hallucinate...but I guess it is possible?


There's no point. Either the data is correctly recorded onto the tape or it isn't.No point in the scientific method? Okay, we'll move on then.
It is physically and technically impossible for different types of magnetic tape to visibly affect the image quality of a digital video stream aside from reliability and dropouts.So far, so good. But there's a lot to be said about those.
If you feel like wasting your time, go ahead.Maybe I can save someone else the trouble?

For the time being, I'll just present the result of my findings and let each person be their own judge.

Result one (http://bssc.sel.sony.com/DigitalMaster/testimonial_LWiegand.htm)

Result two (http://www.zenera.com/dvtape.html)

[fishops]

LOL, I've alway though myself to focused to hallucinate...but I guess it is possible?

No point in the scientific method? Okay, we'll move on then.So far, so good.Maybe I can save someone else the trouble?

I could use the scientific method to prove that an orange can't sing the high part in "Bohemian Rhapsody" by Queen. It would be about as useful an experiment.

[CycleWriter]

For the time being, I'll just present the result of my findings and let each person be their own judge.

Result one (http://bssc.sel.sony.com/DigitalMaster/testimonial_LWiegand.htm)

Result two (http://www.zenera.com/dvtape.html)

Dude, I looked over both those links and they reinforce exactly what I said about recording reliability. Not a single word about any difference in picture quality, which is what you are alleging in your previous posts.
From the Sony link:
""A higher grade tape is obviously going to give you fewer problems. I've even had experiences with lower grades of tape where the tape just won't record properly, where it just doesn't work. Or where you play it back and there's all kinds of dropouts. It's just for some reason not recording correctly. And you lose a whole tape. So you have to have lots of extra tape with you, just to make sure you have a tape that works."

I have been working with digital data since the early '80s when I worked for a company in Silicon Valley that made breakthroughs in digitizing X-Rays for transmission via phone lines. Our first system was installed at SF General in 1983. Digital media has no bearing on the p;icture quality of a digital image. It may have a bearing on whether that image is recorded (and hence, displayed) properly, but it will not affect the actual picture quality, in terms of color, clarity, sharpness or other PQ issues, one bit.

You can do all the testing you want, it can't change that reality. Or common sense.

[HueyNRolf]

Maybe this is how he does it:
http://www.4electronicwarehouse.com/products/denon/ak-hm500.html?id=17511&utm_source=GoogleBase&utm_term=AK-HM500&utm_campaign=denon&utm_medium=comparison

[Krane]

Dude, I looked over both those links and they reinforce exactly what I said about recording reliability. Not a single word about any difference in picture quality, which is what you are alleging in your previous posts.Yes, however, as the links were included to attest, it was corrected since then. Nevertheless, if I still need to be more explicit that you were correct, THERE IS NO REFERENCE TO ANY IMPROVEMENT IN PICTURE QUALITY!

[jpc]

My Costco only sells Sony Premium DVC tapes. I got home and remembered the "wet" issue. I previously used JVC. Reading the last two pages of this thread, should I not use them because of the "wet" issue? Thanks.



The discussion was not about cleaning tapes, but the lubricant used in blank tapes. Sony's have long been claimed to use a wet lubricant, which is advised against using in the HV. Whether it is true that Sony still uses a wet lubricant in their tapes is up for debate, though. We do know that Panasonic does not.

[Mitosh]

My Costco only sells Sony Premium DVC tapes. I got home and remembered the "wet" issue. I previously used JVC. Reading the last two pages of this thread, should I not use them because of the "wet" issue? Thanks.

From what I understand is you will be fine, just run a cleaning tape through it first.

[previdman]

Posted this before BUT in case you missed it:

Videotape is produced in wide rolls with the center of the tape yielding better, more consistent density and better controlled quality than towards either of the edges.

The highest grade comes from the middle with fewer problems, than the lowest grades outward at the edges. Add to that, there are variations in tape base material and thickness as well as type of coatings and processes applied.

BUT

In digital recording it's just 1's and 0's, unlike analog recording. While dropouts are still possible, digital picture quality is NOT affected by tape grade as in analog recording.

But you can waste your money however you want. It's OK by me.

No, really.

[Rumpelgeist]

Analog data can have distortions, digital data can have it too. In case of digital data, the following options are available:

1) no losses of real data
2) losses of real data that are corrected with error-correction scheme, so in effect no loss
3) loss of real data that is corrected with interpolation schemes. Not exactly the same data, but works for video and audio, does not work for computer data.
4) Loss of real data beyond correction or interpolation.

I don't know whether option (3) is used by HDV camcorders. If yes, then good tape can make a difference. But I think that only (2) is used.

Option (3) is used for CD audio, and in some MP3 players too.

[jpc]

I was thinking of starting a new thread that would be a poll asking what tape you use. Not sure if a poll is possible. I will let the mods decide if they want to do it.

I am still wary about using the Sony premium tapes I got from Costco....

I will get the Sony MiniDV Cleaning Cassette unless someone thinks I should not.

[CycleWriter]

I was thinking of starting a new thread that would be a poll asking what tape you use. Not sure if a poll is possible. I will let the mods decide if they want to do it.

I am still wary about using the Sony premium tapes I got from Costco....

I will get the Sony MiniDV Cleaning Cassette unless someone thinks I should not.

I don't think we need a poll. It's pretty obvious that Panasonic is the preferred tape brand in here. As to the head cleaner, so long as it is a dry type, no problem. Canon recommends against using wet-type head cleaners.

[Makey]

I've just bought an HV30. Got a whole stack of standard Sony premium Mini DV tapes that worked fine in my other Canon camcorders. Please advise if these OK to use with the HV30.

[Makey]

I'm not sure if my original message got sent - apologies if this is a repeat.
I've just bought an HV30 and I've got a lot of standard Sony premium Mini DV tapes which I've been using in my other Canon camcorder. Please advise if these are OK to use in the HV30. Thanks.

[HueyNRolf]

What?

[bigjezza]

...3) loss of real data that is corrected with interpolation schemes. Not exactly the same data, but works for video and audio, does not work for computer data.
...
I don't know whether option (3) is used by HDV camcorders. If yes, then good tape can make a difference. But I think that only (2) is used.



I tried googling this, but I couldn't find any specific information regarding the error correction on MiniDV and HDV. But then again, I didn't spend too long at it.

[fishops]

I'm not sure if my original message got sent - apologies if this is a repeat.
I've just bought an HV30 and I've got a lot of standard Sony premium Mini DV tapes which I've been using in my other Canon camcorder. Please advise if these are OK to use in the HV30. Thanks.

My brother did this once, it caused an explosion and the tape drive came out and a piece sheared off his nostril. Don't risk it.

[HueyNRolf]

http://www.grapheine.com/bombaytv/index.php?module=see&lang=uk&code=4b02a2591bc5e5c3a75fb13c2da7cc91

[bluegrass]

As a new thread was just started to ask about tapes which will surely get locked by CW as soon as he sees it, I'm going to put my 2 cents in here. I know the majority here on this forum weigh in on the Panasonic side. I'll give you my 2 cents. After using Sony tapes for over 3 years, I bought 50 of the Pansonic tapes from B&H last year to try. I would average one or two drop outs on the Sony tapes. Guess what. I had about identical results with the Panasonic. I don't think one is any better than the other. I'd go with Sony since you can pick them up almost anywhere and you can't with Panasonic.

[jpc]

As a new thread was just started to ask about tapes which will surely get locked by CW as soon as he sees it, I'm going to put my 2 cents in here. I know the majority here on this forum weigh in on the Panasonic side. I'll give you my 2 cents. After using Sony tapes for over 3 years, I bought 50 of the Pansonic tapes from B&H last year to try. I would average one or two drop outs on the Sony tapes. Guess what. I had about identical results with the Panasonic. I don't think one is any better than the other. I'd go with Sony since you can pick them up almost anywhere and you can't with Panasonic.

Thanks. OK, it appears that the Sony Premium tapes are not "wet tapes". I will not stop bothering people.:hv20-smilie112:

[Redsandro]

Instead of switching brands, can I use Sony Premium MiniDV (black) And Sony HDV MiniDV (white) mixed up?

I don't really know what's the difference except for marketing, but there probably is. The HDV one is improved, but is it in a way that makes using it together with the Premium one damaging, for example similar to using different brands?

Any thoughts on this?

[dcman]

Hi guys,

I just ordered a Canon HV30, should arrive in a few days.

I would like to upgrade my tape quality, I've been using a Maxell tape, bought in bulk from Sam's Club. But, my Panasonic GS-150 has had so many head clogging and transport mechanism problems I've come to the conclusion I should be buying something better. It may or may not be the tape, I've always used Maxell (so no likely issues with different tape emulsions) and panasonic is part of a group that is known for problems, but using a better grade of tape seems like an inexpensive way to control for problems in a new camera.

I'm looking at panasonic tapes, that I can buy in bulk (I intend to use the same tape brand in the camera), but can't get any consensus on tape grades (consumer, pro, master, etc.) Which grade to other folks buy for their projects? If you have a particular tape or supplier you use, recommendation are always appreciated.

Thanks - dcman

[Makey]

I've been using Sony premium mini DV tapes for several years in my previous Canon camcorders - MV630i and MVX25i - without ever the slightest problem. Whether Sony tape lubricant is wet or dry I've no idea (so many differences of opinion) but either way it never made any difference to problem free running.

Also, I previously used JVC tapes and I've used a TDK head cleaner - all this without ANY problems - until I purchased my HV30!

It's only with the HV30 that I've had (playback) problems - playback sticking, stopping, and not starting at all, though recording seems O.K.

This website proves the popularity of the HV20/30 camcorders, so maybe I'm just unlucky. I've been offered a refund from the supplier but I've already spent a lot of money on accessories (lenses, filters) that I need/WANT to keep with the HV30.

[Krane]

Hi guys,

I just ordered a Canon HV30, should arrive in a few days.

I would like to upgrade my tape quality, I've been using a Maxell tape, bought in bulk from Sam's Club. But, my Panasonic GS-150 has had so many head clogging and transport mechanism problems I've come to the conclusion I should be buying something better. It may or may not be the tape, I've always used Maxell (so no likely issues with different tape emulsions) and panasonic is part of a group that is known for problems, but using a better grade of tape seems like an inexpensive way to control for problems in a new camera.

I'm looking at panasonic tapes, that I can buy in bulk (I intend to use the same tape brand in the camera), but can't get any consensus on tape grades (consumer, pro, master, etc.) Which grade to other folks buy for their projects? If you have a particular tape or supplier you use, recommendation are always appreciated.

Thanks - dcmanThis question has already been answered many times OP. But at least you get credit for posting it in the right place.

Essentially, "just pick one...and stick with it!" Though most would agree that the higher the quality--regardless of brand--the better.

[HueyNRolf]

Though most would agree that the higher the quality--regardless of brand--the better.

And how does one determine quality? Is it price or packaging which claims 'premium' 'HDV quality'?
Also, it seems to me that 'most' disagree with you on this issue.


"just pick one...and stick with it!"
There is no proof that mixing brands will damage your camera.

Go with a cheap-known brand and be sure to pack (forward and rewind) them to avoid dropouts.
I use TDK but Panasonic seems to be more popular here.

[Krane]

And how does one determine quality?In summary, that's what I was pointing out.
Is it price or packaging which claims 'premium' 'HDV quality'? Yes! In marketing speak, it would be all of that.

Also, it seems to me that 'most' disagree with you on this issue.Which doesn't make their point any more or less valid than mine. For example, I can't prove your less expensive tape is any more reliable than my expensive grade/brand.



There is no proof that mixing brands will damage your camera.Nor is there proof to the contrary. However, that wasn't my point. I was speaking from another direction: When you stick to one brand/grade you can better control your variables should something go wrong.

[HueyNRolf]

This question has already been answered many times OP. But at least you get credit for posting it in the right place.

Essentially, "just pick one...and stick with it!" Though most would agree that the higher the quality--regardless of brand--the better.


In summary, that's what I was pointing out.Yes! In marketing speak, it would be all of that.
Which doesn't make their point any more or less valid than mine. For example, I can't prove your less expensive tape is any more reliable than my expensive grade/brand.


Nor is there proof to the contrary. However, that wasn't my point. I was speaking from another direction: When you stick to one brand/grade you can better control your variables should something go wrong.

Oy vey!
I'm outta here

[berighteous]

tape is tape.

[Magic Matt]

tape is tape.

There is no such thing as digital tape. Tape is an analogue format, and as such, subject to all the problems that recording an analogue signal has had for many years.

Yes, your digital signal is converted to analogue for storage on tape, then back to digital when you playback.

"Tape is tape" is just a silly remark. Signal-to-noise ratio makes a difference to how accurately the recording circuitry can store those 1's and 0's in their encoded state, and the playback circuitry can determine whether they are 1's or 0's.

Another factor, more familiar to users of cheap Hi-Fi cassettes, is that ot "magenetic smearing", which is where the capstan roller gets some magnetic media stuck to it, and it is placed back onto the tape a little further down. You can hear this on really bad cassettes as the song seeming to start feintly half a second or so before it's supposed to.

These are just SOME of the problems inherent to tape:
- Quality of the magnetic coating in terms of ability to record the signal
- Quality of the physical tape itself, and resistance to wear
- How well the magnetic coating is stuck onto the tape
- The quality of the case construction on the tape

As testiment to this, I've seen VHS tapes with clear holes in where the magnetic coating has stuck to other parts of the tape while it was kept in a drawer for a few months (cheap Bush tape). I've also seen standard DV camcorder tapes that have "coloured blocks" on playback in some areas of the tape, where signal has deteriorated over a couple of years (far quicker than I expected it to!). I've also seen a Fuji DV tape stick completely, refusing to even load into the machine - for some reason, disassembling the tape and putting it inside a TDK tape chassis solved the problem, and we recovered the footage.

I've not got my HV30 yet, but I will probably stick with TDK tapes when I do, as they've proven reliable. I use quite a few with my old Canon MV500 and some of the tapes have been used 30 or 40 times with no problems at all. I tend to go along with the idea of "fun stuff" I'll re-use tapes etc. but I tend to buy a tape and use it once before any important stuff. Why use the tape once first - to be sure there are no faults, as tapes don't have a "verify" option!

[CycleWriter]

Yes, your digital signal is converted to analogue for storage on tape, then back to digital when you playback.


This is so wrong it isn't funny. First post, not so magical.

[Frank]

Magic Matt said:
"Another factor, more familiar to users of cheap Hi-Fi cassettes, is that ot "magenetic smearing", which is where the capstan roller gets some magnetic media stuck to it, and it is placed back onto the tape a little further down. You can hear this on really bad cassettes as the song seeming to start feintly half a second or so before it's supposed to."

This explanation is (very) incorrect. What you are referring to is known as print-through (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Print-through). It is caused by the proximity of layers of tape, not by magnetic media stuck to a capstan roller. Please try not to spread misinformation.

[CycleWriter]

tape is tape.

Actually, it isn't. There are different formulations, different base substrates, different particle sizes, different transport mechanisms, etc. While there may be little difference between major brands and even less between models of the same manufacturer, there are good and poor tapes. They are definitely not all the same. While I don't advocate spending extra for something labeled as "Premium" or on HD tape, I would not recommend using cheap or off-brand tapes.

[thekeymaker]

has anyone here used the Panasonic AY-DVM63AMQ or the AY-DVM63HD I'll like to get any information that i can on these tapes before buying.

[Mahony]

has anyone here used the Panasonic AY-DVM63AMQ or the AY-DVM63HD I'll like to get any information that i can on these tapes before buying.

Yes I only used the AMQ's with my HV20. They are really good quality, never had any probs with them. But as they are not that cheap I will give the Panasonic AY-DVM63SQ a try. I heard they'll be as good as the Panasonic AY-DVM63AMQ.

Greets
Mahony

[thekeymaker]

where can one find the Panasonic AY-DVM63SQ i can not find them at all on amazon.com

[jpc]

where can one find the Panasonic AY-DVM63SQ i can not find them at all on amazon.com


http://www.google.com/products?rlz=1C1GGLS_en-USUS297US303&sourceid=chrome&q=Panasonic%20AY-DVM63SQ&um=1&ie=UTF-8&sa=N&hl=en&tab=wf

[paulHV]

This is so wrong it isn't funny. First post, not so magical.
I disagree, it is correct. Tape is an analogue format! But do not worry, the video is still digital and stays in a digital format. To be precise the data to and from tape are analogue signals. The 1's and 0' are stored via an analog path in different magnetic 'states' on tape. And when the tape is played back, the magnetic signal from the tape is read by the tape-head and converts the tiny magnetic differences in small electrical analog signals. These small electrical analogue signals are then amplified so that a computer or other digital chip can work with them as 1's and 0's. As long as the analog electronics can differentiate between the different states on the tape your digital video signal will be perfect. However when you have a tape that is not that good, this can give issues when the analog electronics can not read the difference between the different magnetic states and you might see this back in your video.

[CycleWriter]

I disagree, it is correct. Tape is an analogue format! But do not worry, the video is still digital and stays in a digital format. To be precise the data to and from tape are analogue signals. The 1's and 0' are stored via an analog path in different magnetic 'states' on tape. And when the tape is played back, the magnetic signal from the tape is read by the tape-head and converts the tiny magnetic differences in small electrical analog signals. These small electrical analogue signals are then amplified so that a computer or other digital chip can work with them as 1's and 0's. As long as the analog electronics can differentiate between the different states on the tape your digital video signal will be perfect. However when you have a tape that is not that good, this can give issues when the analog electronics can not read the difference between the different magnetic states and you might see this back in your video.

The tape may be analog, but there is no D-to-A and A-to-D conversion going on, which is what that poster said. The entire process involves a digital signal, from the sensor to the PC. Calling any part of it analog just confuses the issue. Tape is no different than a CD, DVD or other electronic media in terms of what is recorded. The only difference is that tape is a linear media and information must be read in sequence rather than at random. Amplification of the signals, 1s and 0s, does not make it analog. It is still the exact same digital data that was originally recorded to the tape. You can try and make it sound like you know what you're talking about, but you are both wrong.

[Redsandro]

Just out of curiosity, where is the line between analog and digital according to you?
A floppy diskette pretty much works the same as a miniDV tape.
A Hard drive stores electromagnetic representations of a 0 and 1 signal, similar but much more sophisticated than a floppy.

Even the bits from a USB memory stick are just voltages kept in small capacitors, which is in fact an analog device, representing a 1 when it stores enough energy.

[CycleWriter]

Analog signals vary in amplitude and frequency. Digital signals are simply 1s and 0s, which are basically an on/off. The camera is merely recording these 1s and 0s and storing them onto the tape. That's why PQ is unaffected by the tape. When captured, all that happens is those 1s and 0s are transferred to the computer from the tape. It is a 1 for 1 process. That's why the tape remains an exact original and a duplicate at the same time. The HV data is and remains digital throughout the process.

[Redsandro]

That's what I'd think. But I must say I didn't realise you replied one minute before I did and I was curious where Paul draws that line.

The lack of random seeking might trigger analog feelings. It's funny how this 'analog' (but actually it has nothing to do with it) way of storing data is still very popular in unix where a bunch of files are stored in a .tar file: tape archive. It's not similar to a zipped file because the contents are literally just stored in a row.

[Rumpelgeist]

Tape is media, neither analog or digital. It can hold charges. If your charges represent an audio of video wave, this is an analog signal. If your charges represent digital data, this is digital signal. To ensure recovery of digital data there are error detection and correction schemes. Without them nothing would work. Error detection and correction is used everywhere, where digital transfer is used: computer networks, CD, DVD, DVI/HDMI connections, etc. DV and HDV have such feature as well. When error goes beyond the system's capability to recover, you get a distortion or a dropout. Unlike analog, digital data cannot degrade gracefully. It holds until the error correction scheme holds, then it just falls apart. Therefore, high-quality tape still make sense if one wants to ensure that data loss is within limits of error correction scheme. Point is, regular tape is already good enough for most cases and conditions. Cases when regular tape will not work and high-grade tape will, are very rare. It usually comes to mechanics. If you get condensation or dust on the head drum, who cares what tape you use, the camera won't work anyway. Tape sucks.

[Syphonkiller]

After reading the thread I found the Panasonic AY-DVM63AMQ tapes to be the most talked about item...

I myself am looking at the Panasonic AY-DVM60EJ for it's price value..

I'm looking to do allot of filming soon with my HV30 and as a college student price matters...

What I've found is the compared to the AMQ I'll be saving BUNDLES and BUNDLES of money if I was to buy the cheaper EJ models.

I've also researched and found that The panny AY-DVM63SQ were bumping heads with the AMQ models. The SQ [as they say] performs just as good as the AMQ with a cheaper price tag.

Hmm... should i spend 250 and change to get something that I would only spend around 100 for?? [EJ vs AMQ]

With what's said on this thread.. it's not a quality issue.. it's a drop out issue...

What should I do?:hv20-smilie52:

[CycleWriter]

Tape is media, neither analog or digital. It can hold charges. If your charges represent an audio of video wave, this is an analog signal. If your charges represent digital data, this is digital signal. To ensure recovery of digital data there are error detection and correction schemes. Without them nothing would work. Error detection and correction is used everywhere, where digital transfer is used: computer networks, CD, DVD, DVI/HDMI connections, etc. DV and HDV have such feature as well. When error goes beyond the system's capability to recover, you get a distortion or a dropout. Unlike analog, digital data cannot degrade gracefully. It holds until the error correction scheme holds, then it just falls apart. Therefore, high-quality tape still make sense if one wants to ensure that data loss is within limits of error correction scheme. Point is, regular tape is already good enough for most cases and conditions. Cases when regular tape will not work and high-grade tape will, are very rare. It usually comes to mechanics. If you get condensation or dust on the head drum, who cares what tape you use, the camera won't work anyway. Tape sucks.
Sorry, but not entirely true. Tape formulations for analog recording had a direct impact on the frequency response, and therefore the dynamic range and quality of the recording. Digital tape does not suffer from this since the data is merely 1s and 0s. The best reason to buy quality Mini-DV tapes is dropout resistance, period. Error correction didn't even factor into analog recordings. It was the tape and the heads that determined what the recorded frequency spectrum would be and their ability to capture the full range of music or audio.

[CycleWriter]

With what's said on this thread.. it's not a quality issue.. it's a drop out issue...

What should I do?:hv20-smilie52:

Exactly right. There is no tape that is impervious to dropouts, not at any price. The best you can hope for is that they are few and far between and never happen during a critical moment. I would try the cheaper Panny's and see how they work out for you before deciding to move up to the more expensive model. I use them with good results.

[Syphonkiller]

Ok... well my question now is has anyone used Panasonic AY-DVM60EJ?

If you have how was your experience.

[Erik Bien]

Ok... well my question now is has anyone used Panasonic AY-DVM60EJ?

If you have how was your experience.

If memory serves (I'd have to look at the box to be sure) that's what I've been using exclusively (non-premium-grade Panasonics, at any rate). I like them just fine, and (knock wood) haven't encountered more than a couple of drop-outs ...

[Syphonkiller]

That's like music to my ears to hear someone approve of an item before a purchase. Ah.. Fabulous! :hv20-smilie03:

But... like a penny saving college student I need much more information than the average guy. :hv20-smilie64:

http://www.amazon.com/dp/B0000AO5RQ/ref=asc_df_B0000AO5RQ712547?smid=A2LM6ZPY06LT1N&tag=nextag-ce-tier2-delta-20&linkCode=asn

This is about as good a deal I could find with my own two eyes..... but....... the secrete to success is a truck load of ramen noodles :hv20-smilie126: and tireless nights of net hawking...


lol.. or i could simply just ask someone who's done their research and knows what they're talking about lol..

HV20.com.. make me a believer :hv20-smilie77:

[johndatserakis]

Hey guys sorry for making a thread in this but I had a question about being able to use the same tapes over and over and I searched google and here and there isnt any real solid answer. There isn't a lot of discussion about this and maybe because its so obvious that you should or shouldn't, I guess I just don't know lol. Also, if you can use them over and over, for how long can you do that? Thanks and sorry!

MOD EDIT: You mean you didn't see the Sticky with this question in its title?

[Ian-T]

Though Canon frowns upon this (I believe in the manual….not sure) I have many times over and over for several months at a time. But then again I probably don’t shoot as much as some folks here. I’m on the same tape from some time last year but be warned, you will start seeing dropouts at the beginning of the tape after a long while of using it this way (only in the beginning of the tape) probably because the tape is constantly being stretched.

Also, we've discussed this here many times over.

[dcman]

Re-using tapes doesn't make sense to me, it seems "penny-wise and pound foolish".

If you've bought an HV30, for a minimum of around 600$ (current prices), why wouldn't you use a fresh tape at 2-4$ apiece? My old panasonic had transport mechanism problems and needed constant head cleaning, at least somewhat related (I think) to using my camera both for taking the video and then capturing the footage, and this was only having a tape go through twice (once for shooting, once for capture).

dcman

[Rumpelgeist]

Sorry, but not entirely true. Tape formulations for analog recording had a direct impact on the frequency response, and therefore the dynamic range and quality of the recording.audio.
True, but I did not state the opposite.

Digital tape does not suffer from this since the data is merely 1s and 0s. The best reason to buy quality Mini-DV tapes is dropout resistance, period. Error correction didn't even factor into analog recordings. It was the tape and the heads that determined what the recorded frequency spectrum would be and their ability to capture the full range of music or audio.
I did not say that analog recordings used error correction. I said that error detection/correction is used in any digital recordings no matter what media is used.

[Lunchbox]

Syphonkiller, please do not send bump post again. If nobody response to your questions about who has done any research on which tape is better, it means nobody has done any research on which tape is better.

[CycleWriter]

Syphonkiller, please do not send bump post again. If nobody response to your questions about who has done any research on which tape is better, it means nobody has done any research on which tape is better.

In addition, it is plain stupid to bump a Sticky. It isn't going anywhere.:hv20-smilie84:

[Syphonkiller]

Syphonkiller, please do not send bump post again. If nobody response to your questions about who has done any research on which tape is better, it means nobody has done any research on which tape is better.
Ahh yes, I apologize.:hv20-smilie77:

My eagerness and need to know was challenged when I saw another question being answered along with more conversation. I thought my question would be brushed off and never answered. :(




In addition, it is plain stupid to bump a Sticky. It isn't going anywhere.:hv20-smilie84:

My intention was not to bump the post :hv20-smilie84: just the question..lol

[CycleWriter]

My eagerness and need to know was challenged when I saw another question being answered along with more conversation. I thought my question would be brushed off and never answered. :(


You need to adjust your expectations a little. This is a free forum staffed by unpaid volunteers and generally nice, helpful people. We'll get to the question when we get to it.:hv20-smilie77:

[Syphonkiller]

You need to adjust your expectations a little. This is a free forum staffed by unpaid volunteers and generally nice, helpful people. We'll get to the question when we get to it.:hv20-smilie77:

lol again I apologize.

I know how things could get a bit crammed in a forum like this.

I'm a mod to a forum with a similar working environment :)

http://glowsticking.com

We are all unpaid and mod the site 100% volunteered.

[CycleWriter]

No worries.:hv20-smilie77: You appear to learn quick and have a thick skin. Lesser newbies run screaming and whining about how I abuse them.:hv20-smilie68:

You'll be fine in here.:hv20-smilie24:

[svar]

I been using standar JVC tapes, but I alsa have 5*Panasonic AY-DVM63AMQ Im going to use soon (using a cleaning tape first)
I think I stick to them as wel, because the prize is 1/2 from USA even then Norwegian VAT is added to price.

:)

[Syphonkiller]

No worries.:hv20-smilie77: You appear to learn quick and have a thick skin. Lesser newbies run screaming and whining about how I abuse them.:hv20-smilie68:

You'll be fine in here.:hv20-smilie24:

lol you remind me of our admin a bit :hv20-smilie48: lmao

GS.C Admin is made of :hv20-smilie68: hahaha


lol I play a bit of hardball with the newbies back on GS.C just to push their buttons a bit. lol i won't follow my traditional battering on this forum since in this world I'm the newbie :hv20-smilie47: lmao

I'll behave sir :hv20-smilie29:

[HueyNRolf]

Now all you have to do is "ASUME THE POSITION."

[Karel Bata]

Hmm... Have you not got a spellchecker then? :hv20-smilie111:


Hey guys, I've just done one of those impulse buy thingys and bought a 5 pack of TDK miniDV 'digital standard' 60 mins tapes at my local supermarket dirt cheap. And there's plenty more back there too. I've always rated TDK audio tapes, but I thought I'd check with you eminent folk first to see if anyone's heard anything bad.

I read this whole thread a few weeks ago, but (goddam!) I can't remember if anyone mentioned TDK! Searching 'TDK' just yields tons of irrelevant threads, like one on Christian Bale. :hv20-smilie50: Is he a shareholder?

I'm the proud owner of a HV-20. :hv20-smilie03:

Cheers! :hv20-smilie77:

__________________

[HueyNRolf]

I use TDK and they seem just fine. Just remember to pack them and I think you'll find that 'tape is tape.'


I read this whole thread a few weeks ago, but (goddam!) I can't remember if...

Oh and you misspelt 'goddamn.' :hv20-smilie77:

[Karel Bata]

"Just remember to pack them"

What do you mean?

Cheers! :hv20-smilie03:

[HueyNRolf]

The old timers used to say 'pack and black' meaning to prep the tapes for shooting.

Pack means to forward and rewind the tapes.
This will shake out loose particles to reduce the risk of droupouts.

Blacking is when you cover the lens and record a timeline on a new tape to avoid timecode breaks in post

Some people consider these practices old fashioned, but I like doing this... because I AM old fashioned.

Cheers,
-HnR

[Karel Bata]

So do you remember 'print through' on old audio tapes? All data on magnetic tapes will slightly magnetise adjacent tape layers in a spool. They will bleed into each other with time. On digital media you'll never notice. In them olden days you had to leave stored tapes tail out (or was it head out?) so any sound printed through came after the sound that originated it when played, so it sounded like echo, and appeared natural. But sometimes on old vinyl you can hear a sort of 'pre-echo' at the beginning of tracks as the print through left an impression on the tape that would be preceeding it when running through the playback head.

Did a quick google and found a very interesting Wiki entry http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Print-through

Don't see the point of blacking these days. Packing still sounds like a good idea, but maybe best done on another older DV deck to avoid wear nad deposits of loose media.

What do you reckon on bulk erasing tapes to remove residual data if one plans to use the tapes again?

[berighteous]

Here's some "your milage may vary" data:
I record 4 hours of weekly science classes on hv20 in DV LP mode (hdv is overkill for this) reusing the same tapes for the same class each week. Cheap Maxell tape from Sam's club.

I just finished capturing in this week's science class videos without a single dropped frame reported. That makes 24 weeks in a row without a single dropout reported on any of the 3 tapes, reused 24 times for this and who knows how many times from other projects before becoming the "science class tapes."

DV mode has been very good for reuse so far.

My last HDV shoot I had 2 dropouts on new tape (from the camera I had my videomic on, boo!) out of the 18 tapes shot that day from 3 hv20's

[Karel Bata]

I think it's not so much how many times you use a tape to record on, rather how often you keep pausing it, leaving it in record/stand-by mode, reviewing takes etc. that will cause the most wear.

But your post berightous is encouraging! :hv20-smilie77:

[CycleWriter]

I think it's not so much how many times you use a tape to record on, rather how often you keep pausing it, leaving it in record/stand-by mode, reviewing takes etc. that will cause the most wear.

But your post berightous is encouraging! :hv20-smilie77:

Actually, how many times is very important as each use represents physical contact with the recording heads and transport mechanism, which translates into friction and wear of the tape. While leaving the tape stopped while in contact with the heads can conceivably cause other damage to a tape, it is the friction from movement that is the most plausible source or damage and deterioration.

[Karel Bata]

When the camera is in record/stand-by do the record heads completely disengage from the tape? I doubt it. The drum remains spinning for a while. I assume it is slant azimuth helical scan?


EDIT: "If you leave your camera in standby mode while the cassette is inserted your camcorder automatically turns off. This is to prevent tape wear and save battery power." http://www.doit.wisc.edu/digital_media_center/images/EFLmanuals/sony_VX2100.pdf

"You will get more wear by having the video head spinning against a paused or very slowly moving tape. This is why all recorders have an auto-shut-off if left in PAUSE very long." http://www.camcorderinfo.com/bbs/showthread.php?t=34566

So if you keep going into pause mode without moving the tape you'll eventually rub a hole in it! The number of times you then recycle that tape is irrelevant.

Unless the heads disengage. Which I don't they do. Anyone know better?

[Down&OutDesigns]

what do you guys think about these...

i bought a pack when i rushed out and wanted to start filming..

should i switch to the almighty Panasonic AYDVM63PQ that i hear everyone uses?


really confused on what the type of tape does to what is recorded...

thanks