Upgrade after HV40

[sbcooler]

I am real curious to buy another camera just after Jan-Feb-Mar of 2010. What features do you think will come on the under $1,000 cameras.

Will Canon offer a better camera than the HV20-30-40 line for under 1K? And what will this upgrade be? Will it be to switch to a better codec like XDCAM on a solid state drive? Will it be to something like 60p at 1920 x 1080? Will it be a larger single 1/2" sensor (as opposed to the 1/2.7" sensor of today) to capture better low light and greater real resolution?

Curious to what people think the next evolution will be in this line of camcorders that the HV's are in?

Thanks-

[cgbier]

I don't think that Canon will put any major improvements into the HV series. The cameras are already (near-)perfect as they can get for a consumer model.

[Duke]

I'm hoping a 1/2" or 2/3" sensor in an XH-A1 type camera as was mentioned on canonrumors. But that won't be a $1k camera. :hv20-smilie110:

[sbcooler]

Forget about what Canon calls it...HV or some other letters...rather, will Canon produce a camera in the form factor of the HV20 with a viewfinder that has any one or multiple characteristics:

1- 1/2" or 2/3" sensor to capture greater dynamic range.
2- XDCAM (35 m/bits/sec) or something equivalent
3- XDCAM (50m/bits/sec) or something around there capturing 4:2:2 color space.
4- SSD drive allowing for multiple hours of very high quality video

If Canon can improve upon the HV20-30-40 with a better CODEC and a larger sensor in the same form factor, that would be pretty incredible...and oh...keep it under $1,000.

[Rikki]

Doubt it.

Why would they wanna cripple their prosumer sales?

[Somin]

When Canon create a new HV cam, than i hope for a bigger sensor, Lanc and a manuel Focus Wheel.

Look her Canon, this cam i like:
http://www.bilder-hochladen.net/files/thumbs/c88b-1.jpg (http://www.bilder-hochladen.net/files/c88b-1-jpg.html)

And sorry for my english, im form germany

[cgbier]

Forget about what Canon calls it...HV or some other letters...rather, will Canon produce a camera in the form factor of the HV20 with a viewfinder that has any one or multiple characteristics:

1- 1/2" or 2/3" sensor to capture greater dynamic range.
2- XDCAM (35 m/bits/sec) or something equivalent
3- XDCAM (50m/bits/sec) or something around there capturing 4:2:2 color space.
4- SSD drive allowing for multiple hours of very high quality video

If Canon can improve upon the HV20-30-40 with a better CODEC and a larger sensor in the same form factor, that would be pretty incredible...and oh...keep it under $1,000.

I'm not sure if the targeted market group for a consumer cam would be interested in these specs ... or even care .... KISS

[sbcooler]

Ummm hello...the targeted market would not want a better camcorder able to resolve more detail (larger sensor) able to capture low light situations and shallower depth of field for under 1K? And this target market wouldn't welcome a camcorder that can capture a higher dynamic range?

Who would not WELCOME these positive changes. The idea of a "consumer" camcorder has changed massively during the past 10 years...an HD cam capturing resolution we have standard today at the fidelity we have today is so far better than what existed 10 years ago, no less 15 years ago!

I have watched my brothers wedding from 15 years ago...worse than VHS....and I've seen an old High 8 camcorder from Sony (Used to be considered very good) and it's hard to watch.

Of course consumers are going to buy bigger sensored cameras that can resolve more detail. Technology is advancing at in incredible rate. I highly doubt todays camcorders will not evolve into even better devices.

Anyone?

[sbcooler]

Curious to what Canon's next sub $1,000 camcorder will be. Still wondering if anyone thinks Canon will come out with something quite a bit better than the HV40 perhaps with memory on board and better electronics, lense, sensor, manual focus ring.

Be nice to see an XD Cam like form factor in Canons handicam line with an even better/bigger sensor. Anyone think 2010 we will see these improvements again with a small handicam form factor?

[cgbier]

Don't get me wrong, I would like the changes you are suggesting, but I think you get the term "consumer" a bit wrong.
(What follows is a slight exaggeration for rhetoric): The standard consumer is an absolute non-technical person going with his CC to a big box store to let some pimple-faced store clerk, with absolutely no clue what s/he is actually selling, talk him into any kind of electronic gadget.

They'd give a rat's behind on all the features a camera has were it not some bait from Canon's e.a. marketing.
Why does the HV need all those labels on the body? - Simple: If asked about the camera, the "consumer" simply needs to read all those stickers to his impressed audience. S/he doesn't even need to understand what those thingies mean, but, sure like hell, they sound cool.

Sure, this is a gearhead forum on which the majority of users knows, most of the time, what they are talking about. But this majority is a minority in the whole "consumer" community.

[dsclark]

In the consumer area, HDV is dead. Sony dropped out of the game last year and I think that the HV 40 is the last consumer HDV cam will see . Heck, it has been two years since I've seen any HDV cam in a chain store.
So, what will you see in 2010? You'll see lots of itty bitty looking avchd cams, every one of them lacking a view finder, most of dubious build quality.
The one thing that you'll see more of will be quality point and shoot cameras that also do hd.
I just got a Panasonic Lumix FZ35 and the 720p looks good, the still pics are excellent.Canon has one out too, and I think this will be where the market is headed.
If you love hdv, I suggest looking another soon, at least to have a 2nd machine. My Sony HC3 has a sticky zoom toggle, still works well, but I used that as an excuse to sell the idea of buying an HV40 to my wife (it worked!).
Call me silly, but I really love this format.

[jet]

In the consumer area, HDV is dead. Sony dropped out of the game last year and I think that the HV 40 is the last consumer HDV cam will see . Heck, it has been two years since I've seen any HDV cam in a chain store.
So, what will you see in 2010? You'll see lots of itty bitty looking avchd cams, every one of them lacking a view finder, most of dubious build quality.
The one thing that you'll see more of will be quality point and shoot cameras that also do hd.
I just got a Panasonic Lumix FZ35 and the 720p looks good, the still pics are excellent.Canon has one out too, and I think this will be where the market is headed.
If you love hdv, I suggest looking another soon, at least to have a 2nd machine. My Sony HC3 has a sticky zoom toggle, still works well, but I used that as an excuse to sell the idea of buying an HV40 to my wife (it worked!).
Call me silly, but I really love this format.

Have you forgot the HC-9 still going strong in the uk.

[dsclark]

Have you forgot the HC-9 still going strong in the uk.

I think that Sony stopped making the HC9 and what you see is old stock. The HC9 even disappeared from the Sony USA site a while back. Even on Sony's UK site (just checked), the HC9 is gone. All they have there are the 7 and 1000 models.
I am surprised how fast avchd cams took off in comparison to how HDV never made it off the ground in the consumer area. One of the members of the HDV (Sharp? Iforget) never made one, and JVC made only one consumer HDV cam and that was 6 years ago. Now we are left with Canon and I doubt they'll spend r&d money on a format that none of the big chain stores will sell. Niche cams don't make $ selling at $800.

[sbcooler]

Perhaps some of you are right and the camera makers will NOT advance the quality of consumer camcorders (under $1K cameras), but I do NOT think technology will stand still and on some level companies like Canon will improve the Canon HV line with a better product. I sure hope so at least.

I frankly think the reason the HV20 is so succesful is because of the quality of the images it could take. I have to believe that a better quality imaging camcorder will do much better than the crap out there...yes marketing is big, but the cream has risen to the top with the HV20...if someone builds a better mousetrap (bigger/better sensor, higher frame rate, better codec) that can take better video I believe companies like Canon or Sony will make more money on this new camera and it will catch on on and sell more.

Consumer camcorders have hardly stood still the last 6 or 7 years...I have to expect the new ones in 2010 and later will be even better yet. I am quite surprised many of you think the advances in image quality will not go any further.

[jet]

I think that Sony stopped making the HC9 and what you see is old stock. The HC9 even disappeared from the Sony USA site a while back. Even on Sony's UK site (just checked), the HC9 is gone. All they have there are the 7 and 1000 models.
I am surprised how fast avchd cams took off in comparison to how HDV never made it off the ground in the consumer area. One of the members of the HDV (Sharp? Iforget) never made one, and JVC made only one consumer HDV cam and that was 6 years ago. Now we are left with Canon and I doubt they'll spend r&d money on a format that none of the big chain stores will sell. Niche cams don't make $ selling at $800.

Well i did not realise that it is disgusting, they still make mini dv cams or have they stopped there as well, how dare they just close a market like that .

[cgbier]

Perhaps some of you are right and the camera makers will NOT advance the quality of consumer camcorders (under $1K cameras), but I do NOT think technology will stand still and on some level companies like Canon will improve the Canon HV line with a better product.

Canon doesn't want to shoot themselves in the foot. Now already, there isn't much difference in IQ between the HV and XH series.
The image processing pipeline will be further refined, but in order to not having their prosumer cam lines cannibalized, Canon prefers to dumb down their consumer lines gradually. Ever wondered why Canon never bothered to fix the dismal viewfinder on the HV? Look at the non-tape models loosing the VF completely or loosing other features.

But while you are at it: I wish Canon would build a camera with the guts of the HV but with a body the size of a Sony A1 (basically an HC1 on steroids). That'll never happen though ...

[dsclark]

Canon (nor any other company) does not try to put out the best cameras, they do what will make the most $.
Also, newer and "more advanced" doesn't equal better.
My first cam was a Ricoh R18h, a relabeled version of the Sony TR101. It was cheaper than the identical Sony but had a 5 year warranty. Imagine any new cam coming with a factory 5 year warranty!
It was a hi8 cam and the first consumer cam with ois. It was a well built beast, still works. In the fourth year I owned it, a button broke and there was something wrong with mechanism. i took it to Ricoh, they sent it to Sony and it was overhauled for free, under warranty.
After owning it for ten years, I got a Panny GS120. This thing was new, modern and digital. It had 3ccd, DV tape and... the pq never impressed me. The sound of the mics was monoral, the result of having two mics shoved together under the lens. On my Ricoh R18 (Sony) it had a mic on each side for good seperation.. Also, VHS wifi type sound tracks on Hi8 had better freq response. My best hi8 tapes look better line doubled up on my big screen, the DV tapes have noticeable artifacts. So much for technology!
I replaced that with a Sony HC3 HDV cam and was surprised how good video could look on a DV tape.I eventually got an adapter for my VIVE mic and was happy with the machine. It felt good, reliable, durable, didn't like all the built in sharpening, but at least I got to start filming the family in HD in 2005 when I was still seeing people using ancient cams.
Enter the HV40- this was the first cam I used in seven years that had OIS! My one and only cam with OIS was a 16 year old hi8 cam! Compared to the HC3, the build quaility feels cheap, it isn't as comfortable to use, but hey, it has better picture quality so hey, it is as it is. As far as I am concerned, in my world, this is as good as it gets.
Are the newer "more advanced" cams better? A few weeks ago, I checked out camcorder row at Best Buy. Most of the cams were very small and cheap looking. Where are the view finders? I think some even lacked threaded housings to add filters! I can't see how anyone could use these cams without an L bracket or similar to get an extra hand on them. but hey, that's progress, right? I personally could care less if the pocket sized cam offered 1080p and a 300g in free memory cards. if you can't toss a filter or wide angle lens on it,if lacks a viewfinder, I don't want it. However, Canon probably has done a lot of research and has found that 90% of the consumers could care less about that stuff, so this is what you get.
A few years ago, I was showing some clips to a friend and he thought they were good DV footage. He was surprised when I told they were old HI8 tapes that I edited. He was surprised that an old format could look good, better than the DV tapes he got from his junky DV cam. Years from now, people will look back on HDV and say "Wow, that really was a good looking format!".

[jet]

Bought my HC1 in 2006 it came out in 2005, the HC3 was not out until late 2006, cant agree about mini dv i had a panasonic nv 100 in 97 a great cam and great mini dv pq far superior to Hi 8 i had before.could not agree more about modern cams.

[chris_b]

I'm not sure if the targeted market group for a consumer cam would be interested in these specs ... or even care .... KISS

true. which is why most people buy into the '200x digital zoom' and other marketing hype when we all know here thats its a worthless feature. :hv20-smilie64: lol

[chris_b]

Canon doesn't want to shoot themselves in the foot. Now already, there isn't much difference in IQ between the HV and XH series.
The image processing pipeline will be further refined, but in order to not having their prosumer cam lines cannibalized, Canon prefers to dumb down their consumer lines gradually. Ever wondered why Canon never bothered to fix the dismal viewfinder on the HV? Look at the non-tape models loosing the VF completely or loosing other features.

But while you are at it: I wish Canon would build a camera with the guts of the HV but with a body the size of a Sony A1 (basically an HC1 on steroids). That'll never happen though ...

hack? :hv20-smilie09: jk lol.. unless someones going to do it...

[sbcooler]

Maybe you guys are right and Canon is just in this for money and won't really give a damn about further improving the very respectable HV line. That's too bad, because they really improved the camcorder so much up to this point.

So to stop improving further in the consumer camcorder market, hmmm...that's disappointing if that is reality. I gotta believe Canons pro line will get better so why not the consumer line.

Like you I too would like to see a prosumer cam from Canon...a less expensive version of what RED is doing with Scarlet....a $999 Canon with a single 1/2" sensor (for better low light and detail), a 1,920 x 1,080 30p/24p native codec that is on the level of XDCAM and a VIEWFINDER for sure...never sacrifice that. Also, the ability to put on a wide angle/telephoto lense...and high quality glass. The technology is there today to make this camera...and the specs might very well SELL the prosumer market more and then with GREAT reviews, the consumers who want a high quality consumer cam.

Well, I can dream, even if it doesn't become reality for some time. I gotta believe within 5 years it will be a cinch! But that is much too long for me to wait!

[Rikki]

RED have dropped the ball with scarlet big time

[sbcooler]

I don't think RED with Scarlet has dropped the ball at all. I think they are aiming MUCH higher as far as quality is concerned and as far as expandability is concerned...one you buy the "modular" Scarlet, really you won't have to buy a new camcorder for probably 10-15 years...or more...just replace the brain or replace or add new glass...or a new battery...seems like the modular idea is awesome for building a high quality pro cam.

As I said I just wish Canon, Sony and other will feel pressured to make consumer cameras with bigger sensors, better low light performance and perhaps a better codec/format. I can hope this is true even if it's not.

Either way as my "pro" camera I hope to buy a Scarlet sometime later next year.

[Rikki]

They dropped the ball.

They said it would be out summer 08, now looking like summer 2010. It was going to be 3k for $3k - no more. It was gonna be all things to all men, something soccer moms could use....

[sbcooler]

Rikki, if you read closely what RED says and repeats thousands of times in every announcement they make is that ALL things they are announcing are subject to change...COUNT ON IT! I read their site and their CEO, the billionaire, constantly says this.

They made a 4K camera (that's 5 times the resolution of HD) for under $20K that has an S35 sensor....Sony at the time came out a year after with the F35 for $350,000....hello! RED is very innovative and its a big reason why a ton of Hollywood is using their camera. Everyone said it was impossible and it would never come out...but it did...and over time they have made a mature system from it.

The Scarlet has been talked about for 18 months now...not a long time to develop a brand new camera from a new company...give them a break...something will come out either late this year or early next year with Scarlet...a 3K camera with a 2/3" sensor...and a RAW codec. Please find me another 2/3" camera that can come close to this for less than $25,000....and they maintain the will still do it for $3,750 or so....and if you buy the interchangable model you can pick that up for $2,500..of course you need to buy a lense....but hey...come on..you are getting something that takes video as good as SONY F950 ($110,000) camera.

People will always complain...but compared to the competition, it's like comparing a race horse vs a poodle in a rac around a mile track.

Outside of Canons HV20-30-40 line, Canon, SONY and JVC have a lot of catch up to do. In my opinion at least...time will tell for sure. We'll see where things stand in 1 year from today. I bet you anything RED will be doing better than ever.

[Rikki]

Yeah, they just post up any old crap they want under the priviso "this is sh1t, we're talking out our asses and we'll just change it to something more in line with the truth later down the line".

Well done, they got the RED ONE out to market. It was late too, its full of bugs, they constantly release new firmware for it (mostly betas), they have camera crashes in the middle of shoots, cams get sent away for repair all the time, if you rent 3 you need to get 4 coz you know will cripple up.

With R1 they said "this is this" and out it came but with Scarlet they've really taken the piss out of people. Thats why I opted to get a new cam now instead of waiting for Jim to really make one.

[sbcooler]

First of all, a good section of Hollywood pros use the RED to shoot, so you are arguing against the biggest experts in the business. The RED has produced some of the most stunning shots ever. Have you seen their demo reel?

Secondly for a camera that is being constantly compared to Sony's F23 and other $150,000+ camera system I think you could cut them a little slack considering you could buy 7 RED ONE cameras for the price of a SONY F23 and still not have a true 35mm cam from Sony!

Thirdly, RED said and everyone knew it was an experiment with firmware updates coming out fast and furiuos as RED figured out how to make the camera work. You knew this going in unless you are really not paying attention to what you are buying. By build 15 about a year ago or so, they system is very stable, used often on all sorts of shoots and produces the most amazing images around.

It's easy to criticize, but if you truly compare the RED ONE to the $150K cameras it is compared to, it is the best thing around by FAR. And to think that Scarlet will make images comparable or better than the RED ONE for just $3,750 I think you could find a little more patience with waiting for this miracle to happen. So soon you'll compare RED's Scarlet to a $150,000+ camara from SONY and you still want to complain. Yes, it's not out yet, but its coming...and whether that takes 2-3 more months or 6-7 months I beiieve all agree it will be out in less than a year. You could buy 40 of them for the price of one comparable camara from SONY! And still not have some of the benefits that the RED has....like it's high frame rate of 120 fps and REDCODE raw codec.

RED is 5 years ahead of its time, but you're too blind to see it. Maybe you should look up what camera Stephen Sonderheim uses in Hollywood...hello!

[Rikki]

Oh, touched a raw nerve there with you eh!

If you care to read my posts I was complaining at RED talking crap about release dates for Scarlet and the fact people have held off upgrading in the vain hope of it appearing but its now well over a year late.

I dont care about Red One, Im not going to buy one as I dont need one. I do however know full well the limits of it, the issues with extremely bright areas greying, the bug where you play back your footage and all you get is a green screen making you crap yourself thinking the footage didnt store, the numerous minutes on bootup for things to kick in, the jellocam effect of the rolling CMOS shutter causing it to be almost useless for tracking work etc etc

Yeah great cam for the money etc etc but I dont care, I cared about Scarlet and pinned hopes on it but had to eventually jump ship to a Pana HMC in the mean time as my HV20 was being overcome with the type of work I was doing.

[sbcooler]

So you are comparing now the Panasonic with 3 1/3" sensors inside...we are talking about 2 completely different levels of eqiupment...you are talking about prosumer equipment and I am talking about RED which is professional equipment...2 different quality levels.

The issues you mentionned with the RED ONE was from 2 years + ago when the RED ONE first came out...everyone knew it would have plenty of firmware upgrades and was an experiment.

Also everyone, who read (I'm sorry you did not), that SCARLET was subject to change and could be hit with delays as their were priorities making sure the RED ONE worked well...also, the specs increased for Scarlet and some new technology (ASICS) came about and RED made a decision to release something even better...if you read the board you'd never be real surprised that their were delays...RED is a like a genius at a candy store...very excited to be pioneering the video field, but you have to bear with them if you want stuff that is worth 10-20-30 times their value.

I remember my friend once complaining when I got him into Apple stock at $15 a share...it went up to $200 and fell down to $90...well in 5 years he was up 600% still, yet he was complaining...life is not always straight up...there are detours along the way. RED is a detour that to me at least is well worth having...and to most of the pros in Hollywood as well.

To the prosumer who does not follow RED closely and does not read their boards and just assumes they are like other companies...well, you may be gravely disappointed, but that is just a function of expectations....poor expectations. You've got to know who and what you are dealing with. You want the best, you must have patience...I bet you the Scarlet smokes than Pana you got by a mile...the SCARLET will be used on live full on shoots at the highest of levels...cant say that about any prosumer level camera nor even close.

I'm not offended...just surprised that you obviously have not followed along on RED's board to find out what was really going on. Jim & RED have updated so many of these issues...it is so clear to me that you are just missing out due to old stereotypes and inaccurate expectations you had.

Good luck finding your way out of this hole. You are missing a revolution...or I should say you may miss one...if you do not embrace far better equipment.

[Rikki]

Im not comparing anything with anything, I said I got a Panny coz I needed an upgrade and waiting for Scarlet would be unproductive.

Do you own a RED? What do you use just now? Do you make money or are you an armchair bound keyboard warrior?

The issues I mention were up until recent firmware builds, ask Mike Seymour at FX PHD.

I dont bother reading the Red forums, and you shouldnt either by your own admission - they change everything, whats said today is retracted and changed tomorrow so why not just sit on your hands and wait for a product to be launched then read - surely that would save you some time - yes/no ?

"I bet you the Scarlet smokes than Pana you got by a mile"

Brilliant mate! Thats amazing. A figment of your imagination that doesnt exist smoking my camera thats putting real hard cash in my pocket right now! Thanks for confirming my preconceptions of your ineptitude.

[antman]

I have to agree with Rikki, Reds are decent, but they do have issues. As a matter of fact when it was being demoed , it crashed and they couldn't get it working. And for the amount of films that go to the theatres 4k, is no use to us small indie guys. Plus the scarlet may never be released, I too got suckered into waiting way longer than I should have, but ended up getting an xha1s. So at this point any thing is better than nothing, and reds got nothing, in this price range.

[sbcooler]

You make so many argument against the RED, yet much of Hollywood at the highest levels are using it and loving it...and if you read articles by these pros you can clearly see why the RED is far better than what you bought. You've got a 1/3 inch sensor...red has an S35 sensor...night and day dude. It's like comparing a bicycle to a car.

No offense. But it has been obvious to me since the beginning that RED was pioneering something far different than any other company and doing it for 1/10th of the price.....and it was easy to see that for me at least that why the Scarlet is taking a little longer than RED first hoped. Cut them some slack.

We've been through the worst recession in 70 years and your worried about them rushing their camera out....please....as you found out there are many other cams you can use to make a few $$. My advice is, sell your camera as soon as Scarlet comes out and play with the pros.

Until you do that you'll just be playing with weak codecs, small sensors, grainy video in low light and images that cannot easily be composited as the resolution and color is just not there. If you have any experience with Post Production you'll see just how far you can push colors using the RED camera or for that matter HD CAM SR (Sony F23, F35, F900). Far, FAR, Far more lattitude.

Last point. If you bothered to read RED's FORUM, then you would have NEVER BEEN DISAPPOINTED by Scarlet being delayed and you'd have expected some firmware issues when the RED was first released...this stuff was discussed ad naseum.

You must read what a company is telling you before you get so mad and put them down. It pays to do your research and buy the best camera for the job. Hope you see the light brother...good luck-

[Rikki]

I have to agree with Rikki, Reds are decent, but they do have issues. As a matter of fact when it was being demoed , it crashed and they couldn't get it working. And for the amount of films that go to the theatres 4k, is no use to us small indie guys. Plus the scarlet may never be released, I too got suckered into waiting way longer than I should have, but ended up getting an xha1s. So at this point any thing is better than nothing, and reds got nothing, in this price range.

Exactly my points, I felt like I was reiterating them time and time again here.

I waited to see what would come, nothing did, I needed an upgrade so I bought one. Ive already had enough work to just about pay for my new unit so it doesnt owe me anything now so if/when Scarlet or whatever appears I can move on again.

[Rikki]

You = deluded fanboi

"you can clearly see why the RED is far better than what you bought. You've got a 1/3 inch sensor...red has an S35 sensor...night and day dude. It's like comparing a bicycle to a car."

Pana with lens, data store, monitor, audio - £3,000
Red One without lens or anything else - £10,000

"sell your camera as soon as Scarlet comes out and play with the pros"

Dont wanna play, esp with a new cam from a company that puts its paying users on the beta cycle. Cant afford to go to a shoot and have a brand new v1.0 firmware Scarlet dying. I'd hold off at least 6 months.

"Until you do that you'll just be playing with weak codecs, small sensors, grainy video in low light and images that cannot easily be composited as the resolution and color is just not there. If you have any experience with Post Production you'll see just how far you can push colors using the RED camera or for that matter HD CAM SR (Sony F23, F35, F900). Far, FAR, Far more lattitude."

My name isnt James Cameron. I dont care. I do mainly YouTube based web stuff and DVD production. I could use a Canon XM2 and get away with it for the most part.

"You must read what a company is telling you before you get so mad and put them down"

They said Scarlet would be out over a year ago, it wasnt. They said "we might be talking lalalala here" to cover their asses. A bit like Ford saying the new Mustang will be out in a year cost $3,000 have 5,000bhp and return over 300MPG with a small * beside it and underneath saying "or maybe not".

Anyway, as previously mentioned whats you current camera rig consist of and what is it you do with said camera rig?

[sbcooler]

My point is, if you spent any time researching the RED company you'd know that Scarlet just like the RED ONE is a camera that far exceeds anything you can get in the marketplace. But the caveat is, that you are a pioneer if you are one of the first to buy them and must have time and patience with its first release.

I think you are smart to wait 6 months after the Scarlet comes out to buy it, because at that point many of the kinks will be worked out.

This same argument you make is the argument many make when they upgrade operating systems with the newest and latest (VISTA, WINDOWS MILLENIUM), and then get all upset when it doesn't work well. I let others buy first, wait a few months, read the reviews, talk to friends that are more into being pioneers and then if all goes well, I make my purchase.

RED ONE was an experimental camera the first year of release. Everyone knew it. Everyone knew it had incredible potential and that would be released a little bit at a time with firmware upgrades.

All this information was clearly said by RED in many posts, in many places, by many, MANY different employees there. No surprise to anyone that READS what they are buying before making a purchase.

Same with Scarlet. So many posts by RED saying not to count on any particular deliverable date, because they want to get the camera right. They are concerned with quality over profits and their actions via there very DIRECT communication (online board where there CEO answers questions and gives his feedback) that far superseeds anything I've ever seen from a company. Can you imagine Sony or Canon's CEO answering questions and talking about the future of where they are going to individuals like this. Never been done.

RED offers by far the best customer service in the business...but it is company for those who appreciate service and quality and for those at first at least that can pioneer a whole new standard. For people like yourself trying to eek by a living, your better off with a tried and true method until RED perfects something (6 months after release if reviews are good) that you can use.

I am surprised you don't do more research on RED before jumping to the conclusions you draw. RED has probably one of the most knowledgable and respectful community based camera systems. Great people. It is something I suggest you may try to aspire to...if you do, you may just find one day, that not only does your camera equipment improve, but your skills dealing with people improve. Just my oberservation.

If you want to talk specific camera talk we can do that. If you want to make blind accusations at RED or myself, that is not what I'm interested in. Try to get some perspective and balance before you reply.

[bmxsteez]

This has obviously been photoshopped but I'd like to kow whether there is a mike with a handle like this. I ahve noticed a lot of custom handles that attach under and wrap up the back and ovber the top like this...does anyone sell this type of handle at all?


When Canon create a new HV cam, than i hope for a bigger sensor, Lanc and a manuel Focus Wheel.

Look her Canon, this cam i like:
http://www.bilder-hochladen.net/files/thumbs/c88b-1.jpg (http://www.bilder-hochladen.net/files/c88b-1-jpg.html)

And sorry for my english, im form germany

[cgbier]

That's the handle of the JVC HD100. The mic itself is not integrated into the handle, but sits in a ring that is ... integrated I mean

You might be able to carve something like that (sans XLR I assume) from a hotshoe mic holder a VHS recorder handle or sumfin like that, and plenty epoxy glue.

[Daiky]

Curious to what people think the next evolution will be in this line of camcorders that the HV's are in?
Thanks-


- Certainly not better image quality, you need to pay more if you want that!
- 5.1 sound. So you now can hear the camera man talk through the surround speakers.
- more fake "holywood movie" settings. In other words, on-camera color correction, desaturation, adding contrast.
- slow motion capture feature. Records at higher frame rate, but only 3 seconds.
- GPS data. So you can see where you recorded the video...

I'm afraid they will go the same way as Sony is doing. Adding all these -in the eyes of the semi-pro - useless crap to justify the need to buy a new cam.
But I doubt you will soon need to upgrade from a hv20/30/40 to have better image quality.
just my 2cts

[Duke]

They made a 4K camera (that's 5 times the resolution of HD) for under $20K that has an S35 sensor....

Almost right. They made a camera body for that price ($17.5k plus tax). Putting together a camera package for the Red is about $35-$38k. The most stripped down package is $30k before you buy something to edit it.



The Scarlet has been talked about for 18 months now...not a long time to develop a brand new camera from a new company...give them a break...something will come out either late this year or early next year with Scarlet...a 3K camera with a 2/3" sensor...and a RAW codec.

So far, it's only the Epic that they've talked about finishing the prototype for the first release of a new camera. And as of the show last month, the prototype was not yet finished much less say in production.


Please find me another 2/3" camera that can come close to this for less than $25,000....and they maintain the will still do it for $3,750 or so....

At this point I can't and they can't either. It's a concept in development, not yet a camera, which has always been the downfall of the Red announcements. The Scarlet they are talking about now isn't the same beast at all as what was originally promised.


and if you buy the interchangable model you can pick that up for $2,500..of course you need to buy a lense....but hey...

For the $2,500 model, you'll need a battery, IO module, monitor or EVF, lenses and a bunch of stuff. Some estimates (guesses really) are that will be about $9k to fully outfit that camera. At the same time no one knows if it will have auto focus, auto exposure or as some think manual everything.



Outside of Canons HV20-30-40 line, Canon, SONY and JVC have a lot of catch up to do. In my opinion at least...time will tell for sure. We'll see where things stand in 1 year from today. I bet you anything RED will be doing better than ever.

Right now you can buy a Sony EX1 for about $6k, and that will probably come down a little. For that you have a 1/2" TrueHD sensor, full raster recording, a good lens, battery, good storage, and switchable from manual to auto. That's what Sony offered 2 years ago. (Yes I know there are advantages and disadvantages to both.)

It will be interesting to see what and when Red actually releases something after the Epic, and what the other manufacturers are releasing at the same time. You can't compare what Red will release in the future with what Cannon or Panny released in the past. The market changes too fast. :hv20-smilie64:

On the other hand a little competition should be good for consumers in the long run.

[sbcooler]

Many statements you make here are just inaccurate. Since I read the RED board daily and see Jim Jannards and the RED's staff comments I will now correct what you say. It would be nice if you kept up with RED's comments instead of checking maybe once every 6 months...your info is WAY outdated. No offense, but it's obvious you don't keep up with the latest musings on RED.


Almost right. They made a camera body for that price ($17.5k plus tax). Putting together a camera package for the Red is about $35-$38k. The most stripped down package is $30k before you buy something to edit it.

- You can buy a RED lense for much less and outfit the whole body for under 25K. Not bad when comparing it to Sonys $150,000 (BODY ONLY) F23 or SONYs $250K F35 (Body Only).




So far, it's only the Epic that they've talked about finishing the prototype for the first release of a new camera. And as of the show last month, the prototype was not yet finished much less say in production.

-Totally wrong. The Scarlet 2/3 will be the first to be released according to RED. Epic will come out around the same time or later. The camera is mostly done but they are waiting for the ASICS.



At this point I can't and they can't either. It's a concept in development, not yet a camera, which has always been the downfall of the Red announcements. The Scarlet they are talking about now isn't the same beast at all as what was originally promised.

- It was NEVER promised...all subject to change as in every released comment by RED. And you should mention that what was subject to change was that RED decided to make the SCARLET and EPIC even better. MUCH better.



For the $2,500 model, you'll need a battery, IO module, monitor or EVF, lenses and a bunch of stuff. Some estimates (guesses really) are that will be about $9k to fully outfit that camera. At the same time no one knows if it will have auto focus, auto exposure or as some think manual everything.

RED said the $3,750 (FIXED 2/3) will come with a fully together functioning package. In other words you won't HAVE to buy these extra accessories unless you want to. The $2,500 interchangeable 2/3 may come with some of the stuff. Anyway, most estimate you'll be at $4K for the Fixed and $5-$6K for the interchaneable with one decent lense (depending on the lense obviously).


Right now you can buy a Sony EX1 for about $6k, and that will probably come down a little. For that you have a 1/2" TrueHD sensor, full raster recording, a good lens, battery, good storage, and switchable from manual to auto. That's what Sony offered 2 years ago. (Yes I know there are advantages and disadvantages to both.)

Love the EX1...best camera on the market TODAY. Agreed. But there is NO INTERCHANGEABLE lense, so compare it to the EX3 from SONY if you are making that comparison above...and you have a $9K Sony vs. a $6K Scarlet...the Sony has a great sensor but it is only a 1/2"...not quite up to the PRO 2/3" cams that have been a staple of the pro community for 10+ years. Also, SONY has the weaker XDCAM codec...you cannot push the color for compositing work, green/blue screen and highlights nearly as much as it's fully professional HD CAM SR or the RED CODE. Not even close. But for the money and the quality the EX1 does do s nice job at a reasonable cost. Much better than anything that has yet to come out.

It will be interesting to see what and when Red actually releases something after the Epic, and what the other manufacturers are releasing at the same time. You can't compare what Red will release in the future with what Cannon or Panny released in the past. The market changes too fast. :hv20-smilie64:

You can compare...it may be pointless...it may not be. Its exciting though for sure to any enthusiast looking for MUCH higher quality at a reasonable cost. I wouldn't underestimate a company that's been called a fraud for 2 years and came out with the RED ONE and a company thats been criticiszed by the big boys relentlessly, yet half of Hollywood supports them. A man CEO of RED, with a billion dollars and a TON of passion is not easy to stop. Cut him some slack I say and be happy all of these DSLR's coming out like Canons 5D and soon 7D with 1080p video are all out outgrowth of the yet to be released SCARLET. RED is making the video market more competitive. It would be nice if some of you supported competition and pointed gave a MUCH more balanced view of how RED has made stuff for 1/10th of the price of similar quality products.

On the other hand a little competition should be good for consumers in the long run.

YES it is. Now support that competition with accurate information and a more balanced view. RED is far from perfect, but not for MOST of the reasons mentioned here...in my opinion anyway.

[sbcooler]

Oh one more thing..I personally got it answered by Jim Jannard...the Scarlet 2/3 will have AUTO FOCUS...surprised comment on stuff without reading there board closely. It will have auto everything and manual everything just for your information.

Yes, its not out yet, but thats whats being said by RED right now. I would count on that for the Scarlet especially as its for the market that needs to both run and gun (AUTO modes) and cinematoghaer (MANUAL) that wants full control of the shot.

Remember as RED says in every comment they make.."everything is subject to change...count on it!"

Could it be any more clearer!!

[sbcooler]

Well we will have some announcements from RED at the end of this month and I personally can't wait. I have a feeling some production models will be out by year end or early next year...and be mass marketed as well in early 2010. Just in time for the recession to end and RED to clean up.

At least in this persons opinion. Others?

[nxb]

Red is vaporware. I fully expect to be able to play Duke Nukem forever on the scarlet LCD monitor.

The red is like the HV20. Bbbbbut the resolution and hollywood. Its a camera with limitations that can be used to make great work if you mind them. HV20 to Canon pro cam is like Red's 30-40k to a 150k cam.

[Rikki]

So we' re about half a year in the future now.

sbcooler - hows life treating you with your new Scarlet, is it doing the damage for you, making you a millionaire, rubbing shoulders with the A list celebs of the film world ?

Me, Im doing great thanks for asking. Been using my "crap" Panasonic for the last 8 months or thereabouts, show lots of gigs and events, music videos etc and bringing home the bacon so to speak.

Hope to hear from you soon amigo!

R

[dkijc]

sorry to butt in but I loved these convos. Haha I hope mr.sbcooler gets back into this :)

[Rikki]

Not at all dkijc, the more the merrier! Its an open forum and conversation is encouraged.

I'll admit to being slightly fearful that sbcooler comes back on and really gives me it with both barrels. Maybe he's got a set of Red EPICs using the new Mysterium-X sensors in an interocular layout for 4k 3D work. Being Jim Jannard's pet does have its perks you know.

[sbcooler]

I am BACK! Just saw your posts. Yes the Scarlet is doing my very well. I dream of it every night. I saw some sample footage from it and it just blows the pants off of every camera you talk about here. Yes I know its not out yet, but I expect it will be this year. Better late than never! When you find something that is 100 times better than what exists it's ok if it takes a little longer to come out. Progress is not made in 1 day boys!

Anyway, this forum is more for the under $1,000 camera club....the Scarlet is for the $5K+ club. One day when you reach the big boys club, let me know and I'll show you the ropes!

Seriously I just bought a Merlin Steadicam and it's the bomb...it has just pro'd up my entire reportoire. Amazing stuff. So much better than what I could imagine.

Anyways, since we last communicated nothing revolutionary has come out unless you call the Canon 7D revolutionary...cool though, but evolutionary only in my book.

Save up for you Scarlets...you'll all want one sooner or later if you are at all serious about shooting. Just my opinion.

[Koppel]

sbcooler, what camera are you using at the moment?

[sbcooler]

I use a Sony Z1u, a Sony HC7 and a Sony HC1. I was considering upgrading my Sony Z1u to the EX1r, but to be honest, I am in no hurry as I will be busy this year with my business and just be shooting periodically. I will have much more time in the beginning of next year to shoot and then I intend to upgrade my whole line of cameras.

Probably 2/3 Fixed Scarlet for my first big boy camera. And perhaps the Steadicam Pilot and few other accessories. Need to upgrade my computer as well to handle RED's data rate expecially at 120 fps which I intend to shoot for slow motion effects.

The camera is only 1 small part of the true art of shooting. I'll never forget when I shot U2 in Hawaii up close with my Sony! Great moment. I hope to shoot them again one day with RED.