European HV30, 30P problem?

[Sjaakster]

Dear reader,

I know this question will look like I am to lazy to search this forums and the rest of the internet, but believe me i have been researching my anticipated buy of a HV30 for a couple of days intensively now. But still having a question I tought I'd post it here finally.

I am planning to buy a HV30 in the Netherlands which will make it a PAL model. First I was a bit dissappointed that it was only 25p and 50i but then I read couple of threads here that actually the PAL version is preferred above the NTSC version with 24p 30p and 60i because of the lack of need do pulldown with the PAL version. I think I get the idea of 24p, 25p, 30p 50i and 60i, also I understand that 25p is an advantage over the pulldown process needed to get a 24p with the hv 30 NTSC, but what I never see in all these discussions about the comparison between PAL and NTSC version is the 30p mode on the NTSC one. I am wondering what this function is used for because something in my mind says I read an article stating something along the lines of:'the 30p is the 'internet standerd used for making movies specifically dedicated for internet usage'. Could someone please elaborate upon the 30p mode and if I will be missing it using the PAL version. (I know it doesn't have it, but will I 'miss' it?)

Next to that I have a more general question. Also this I have investigated a lot, but I still don't know the answer for my situation:

Should I go for the hv30 with HDV or the new AVCHD HF cameras etc. I have a 2,4 Ghz macbook 2 gb memory, not the newest version with the updated GPU so i think in mine there is not even a GPU. (so second last white macbook model). I will be using the camera to make short movies, clips and I am aspiring to go to art school in the direction AudioVisual Media, which is an education for making movies, documentaries and other media related products. I see that the new AVCHD is very difficult algorithm which requires a strong computer, which my Mmcbook offcourse isn't. I was leaning towards a HV30 so I can edit better. I will want to learn to work with After effects and final cut extensively probably. But why I am doubting is the time of all reviews i read most of them are from last year etc so a lot of arguments about AVCHD being to futuristic may not be valid anymore, that is why I am asking.

OK, many questions, probably a lot of stupid questions but thanks in advance for answers!

(please don't mind spelling and grammar mistakes as I am not a native english speaker and I am sitting in the sun which makes it impossible to read back on the screen what I typed:))

[1]

Welcome to the forum.

Looks like you did good research, and your first post is well written.

I'd not worry about lack of 30p. I am a big fan of the simplicity of PAL, and would MUCH prefer that to an NTSC model.
You'll have it simple: shoot 25p when you want a "film" look; shoot 50i when you want a more "video" look, or want to slow the footage down later.

Clean. Simple.

As far as which cam: that's a tough one, but the HV30 is still a great cam, and I don't think you'll go wrong.

[101001]

I was a little shocked to find that there was no 30p in the PAL mode as I was more concerned with internet distribution.

At first it was a bit of a nightmare putting 25p on the web but once I found some decent exporting settings (there's a far few on this site) it was fine. Quality looked comparable to anything else of high standard.

the lack of 30p isn't really a detraction from the hv30 etc

[VideJo]

Sjaak,

Allthough indeed a lot about the problems around editing AVCHD was entered here last hear, nothing much has changed. You would have to buy a very good computer to edit your stuff.
If you would like to continue in AV, the Apple is indeed the way to go. I know, because my son followed an AV education at the HKU.
Later this afternoon the clouds will cover the sun, so I should worry about the readablity of the LCD . .

[sclements75]

Oh, boy. I'm a Canadian who just moved to the UK and bought the HV30 from a French website called Pixmania, here:

http://www.pixmania.co.uk/uk/uk/744888/art/canon/hv30-high-definition-mini.html?srcid=369

I'm now reading that it can't do 24p. Is that true?!!! That's stupid!

[Sjaakster]

Thanks for all the answers! I still got a few questions though.


I was a little shocked to find that there was no 30p in the PAL mode as I was more concerned with internet distribution.

At first it was a bit of a nightmare putting 25p on the web but once I found some decent exporting settings (there's a far few on this site) it was fine. Quality looked comparable to anything else of high standard.

the lack of 30p isn't really a detraction from the hv30 etc

So 30p is kind of a standard on the internet? I read Vimeo uses the 24p and that with a PAL you have to convert from 25p to 24p and also take into account for the audio to decrease it with 4%. But how about the 30p, you say there are converters, so which sites/platforms use the 30P?


Sjaak,

Although indeed a lot about the problems around editing AVCHD was entered here last hear, nothing much has changed. You would have to buy a very good computer to edit your stuff.
If you would like to continue in AV, the Apple is indeed the way to go. I know, because my son followed an AV education at the HKU.
Later this afternoon the clouds will cover the sun, so I should worry about the readability of the LCD . .

The clouds indeed cover the sun right now, the weather was to good to be true this time of the year anyway! I guess I will go for the HDV standard as I won't have the money to upgrade my computer the coming three years or so. Could you maybe please tell me how your son liked the AV at the HKU, I was planning to go to the HKU too namely. Firstly have to pass the selection process though!

[Lunchbox]

You can read more abotu NTSC vs PAL here

http://www.hv20.com/showthread.php?t=3580

If you are in PAL countries, there's no reason to use NTSC model.

[101001]

So 30p is kind of a standard on the internet? I read Vimeo uses the 24p and that with a PAL you have to convert from 25p to 24p and also take into account for the audio to decrease it with 4%. But how about the 30p, you say there are converters, so which sites/platforms use the 30P?
!


There is no need for converters the codec used and the way it is exported, in my opinion and from what Ive witnessed is more important. Youtube and most video sites that ive tested seem to like h264.

You read that 30fps is the web standard but youtube themselves only say that it is important to not mess with the original fps (which i had tried doing and you got the best results juts leaving it at 25p) It works out better using h264 scalling the size appropriately, this is the case for HQ anyway.

im only really testing vimeo now so I cant really comment.

I would be ludicrous to buy an ntsc camera though just for 30p and 24p (which from my understanding is easier to achieve with pal)

[VideJo]

Could you maybe please tell me how your son liked the AV at the HKU, I was planning to go to the HKU too namely. Firstly have to pass the selection process though!
Why don't you ask him in person?!
Here is the link
to my sons Homepage (http://web.mac.com/arnoouwejan/Arno_Ouwejan_Media_%26_Design/Welkom.html)

[Yzed]

Oh, boy. I'm a Canadian who just moved to the UK and bought the HV30 from a French website called Pixmania, here:

http://www.pixmania.co.uk/uk/uk/744888/art/canon/hv30-high-definition-mini.html?srcid=369

I'm now reading that it can't do 24p. Is that true?!!! That's stupid!

It is better, you can do 25p which is almost like 24p but doesnt require any pulldown.

[EssentialParadox]

If you are in PAL countries, there's no reason to use NTSC model.

There is. It's cheaper ;)

[net]

It only comes into play with TV set differences of NTSC/PAL..computer and internet won't matter, rrright?

[iThinkergoiMac]

Right. Broadcast is basically the only reason to even use PAL/NTSC. And with digital broadcasts becoming ubiquitous, PAL/NTSC won't be needed there either.

PAL has 25p mode, which doesn't have any pull-downs. This isn't a bad thing ;-)

[SenorKaffee]

Your cinematography will not suffer from extra frame per second. If it does, just slow down by 4%. ;)

[Halsu]

Your cinematography will not suffer from extra frame per second. If it does, just slow down by 4%. ;)

Which is exactly the opposite of what's done for the 24p footage that's shown on european television: everything shot in 24p (including movies) is sped up by 4% to 25p for PAL broadcast.

Most European movies are shot directly at 25 fps.

[2Bdecided]

25p is better than 30p for the internet - fewer frames per second to fit into a restricted bitrate = fewer artefacts.

(There is a limit to how far you could go with this argument - below ~20fps it's just far too stuttery).

Cheers,
David.

[Sjaakster]

Again thanks for the answers you all!

Today I went to a retailer asking the price of a HV30 in his shop. He said he could sell for around 680 euros, which is also the lowest price I found on dutch internet shops. That will not be the problem I guess I don't have a choice, but than he started about the new models like the HF. Again pinpointing the fact that HV30 is only HD ready, not full HD etcetera which made me doubt again. (reminds me of an research I once got in class for consumer behavior which said that people make better choices when they only take a few product characteristics and a short time of consideration than taking more and consider for a long time about it, should have done that:)) As I don't have a HD ready or Full HD tv can someone tell me how hv30 footage looks on a full HD screen, if it is very noticeably different from the full HD cameras like the HF out there?

[iThinkergoiMac]

Again pinpointing the fact that HV30 is only HD ready, not full HD

He's lying. I don't even know what he means by "HD ready." The HV30 records 1440x1080, and when displayed at the correct ratio it becomes 1920x1080. That's full HD. End of story.

[VideJo]

Sjaak,

That is the frequent sellers BS. And he "forgot" to add, that for the so-called-full-HD, you would need a BIG computer.
Go for the HV30.

[Halsu]

how hv30 footage looks on a full HD screen, if it is very noticeably different from the full HD cameras like the HF out there?

In my opinion, based on the stuff i've seen so far, HDV looks slightly better than AVCHD (the compression is "less muddy"). It's a small difference though, and i haven't done side by side testing - it's just an opinion so treat it as such.

The resolution difference is neglible in practice - none of the current consumer cameras produce enough actual real life detail to make it matter. Furthermore, many professional HD formats use the same 1440*1080 anamorphic pixel size as HDV or smaller: XDCAM HD, HDCAM, DVCPro HD etc.

[Halsu]

Sjaak,

That is the frequent sellers BS. And he "forgot" to add, that for the so-called-full-HD, you would need a BIG computer.

That has more to do with the AVCHD compression than the pixel size... AVCHD is tough on computers.