24P Workflow for FCP!

[skinnyboy]

FCP Workflow for 24p

I have FCP 5.02 on a dual 2GHz G5
After much hair-pulling and scouring all the websites I could find, I finally came up with a workflow that works.

Here's what needs to happen:
1) you need to import correctly from the camera into FCP
2) you need to remove pulldown from the footage - this can't be done in FCP
3) you need to create a new sequence that will play nice with the pulldown-removed clip

Seems pretty simple, but if there's a mistake at any point along the way, it won't work properly.

I have taken info from various sites and after trial and error came up with the following:

IMPORTING FROM HV20:

Use Easy Setup (Final Cut Pro menu - Easy Setup) and select "HDV - 1080i60"
create a new project
import your footage
(You should be able to play the footage in the default sequence with no rendering at this point. Still need to do some pulldown removal for 24p, though, so don't be too happy.)
Save your project.

REMOVING PULLDOWN:

You can do this by hand in Compressor, but I have no idea how.
For simplicity, use JES_DeInterlacer (free - download at http://www.xs4all.nl/~jeschot/home.html)
Select the file you just imported into FCP (it will be in "Capture Scratch" somewhere).
INPUT field:
check "Top field first"
DON'T check "Progressive"
leave all else as is

PROJECT field:
select "Inverse telecine" from the drop-down and use the defaults

COLOR field:
I do nothing here - feel free to experiment

OUTPUT field: (this is where I hit a wall)
down in "Video Output" select "Direct" and choose "Apple Intermediate Codec" from the drop-down. There's lots of talk online about using "Photo-JPEG", but I could never get that to play nice with FCP, so I recommend using AIC.

Hit "OK" and wait for it to do it's thing - it does 2 passes per clip, and it's pretty fast.

BACK IN FCP:

Import the clip you just cleaned up with JES (it makes a new clip and adds "proj" to the original clip name).
Set up a NEW SEQUENCE (Apple-N) and then control-click on it and select "Settings"
Aspect Ratio: HD (1440x1080) (16x9)
Pixel Aspect Ratio: HD (1440x1080)
Compressor: Apple Intermediate Codec

That ought to do it. You can drag your clip into that sequence and there should be no rendering needed.

My problem was that I was following all the advice online and using "Photo-JPEG", but it would not behave in FCP. I always had to render. I think it has something to do with the Aspect Ratio being 1920x1080 and the Pixel Aspect Ratio being "Square" when I used that. If someone knows how to make that behave, please post.

Please add any corrections, improvements, etc. to this workflow. I hope this is helpful to folks!

Jason

[teamsleepkid]

Did you ever have any problems with jes because i am...it doesnt seem to be finding the cadence on certain clips. Do i need to trim those clips to the pppii at the start? cause i was really excited after i got the 24p with jes but then on certain clips it will just sit and never finish. man i wish it would work every time i dont get it..

[Everett22]

Thanks, Skinny boy.

I have no doubt you just saved me tons of time. I'm new to the HV20, was having trouble with my workflow, and luckily I found your post before I went through too much frustration and over-my-head codec speak.

Thanks.

[Charles Gerungan]

See also here: http://docs.info.apple.com/article.html?artnum=306389

[rur]

This seems like the best workflow for working with the HV20 24P and FCP in order to do pulldown. Has anyone tried this workflow yet as shown in the above link to Apple's website that Charles has posted?

[whatpictures]

I tried it out on my PowerBook with my new FCP upgrade and it works great. The only thing I noticed was that the first frame of the resulting clip is still interlaced. It was a very short clip, and I have not yet tried it with anything else. I'll try to check back in with more results soon.

[TimeKoder13]

Thx Charles and Skinny Boy.

[barshnik]

and why not just use Compressor to remove pulldown per instructions in a related thread here? I've tried both ways, and prefer the Compressor method - works faster on my 8-core mac pro than JES, and without glitches.

John F

[trilamb]

I've followed this thread to a T, and yet JES doesn't let me select "Inverse Telecine" in the project tab. It is always greyed out. If I do the settings first and then link my quicktime file... it becomes greyed out then too.

Any ideas?

[zephyrnoid]

Good grief. If Apple doesn't automate this in a script in the next patch to FCS, I'll be a monkey's uncle ;)

[SmirkySmirker]

Finally someone posts an easy to understand workflow for fcp. Thanks!

[abyuri]

What about the workflow for an HV20 Pal?
I've read in a forum there is no need to do the pulldown, is it true?

[glasmaol]

What about the workflow for an HV20 Pal?
I've read in a forum there is no need to do the pulldown, is it true?

I too would be interested to know this.

[ccirelli]

Hi gang,

Can anyone confirm that the above workflow (Apple's KB doc that Charles linked to) works in FCP 5 / FCS1?

I am using FCP 5.1.4 (latest version for 5), and Compressor 2.3.1.

Thanks for any advice / confirmation.

craig

[koolpenguin89]

What about the workflow for an HV20 Pal?
I've read in a forum there is no need to do the pulldown, is it true?

Yes, quite true. you lucky pal-landers have no need for pulldown removal because it shoots at 25p and not our crummy ntsc 24p-embedded-in-60i-stream.

dylan

[abyuri]

Thank you Dylan!
this is a great news :-)

[scrow9]

I had been getting a strange clip dimension out of JES that was concerning but it turned out to be a problem with the "Get Info" program on my Apple computer displaying incorrect or misleading information...

When I select a video file that's gone through JES De-interlacer, right click on it and select "get info" I got a weird size of 1416x1062 showing up as my clip dimension.

However when I open that same clip within Apple's Cinema Tools and press clip analysis I do actually now see 1440x1080...so all seems good!

Steve



Steve

[MikeyPOTG]

thanks for this awesome info! I managed to do it and it worked for most of my clips but so far I seem to have 2 issues.

1. a couple of my clips got some strange error:
cadence phase not found error 5017
But the rest worked fine. This hasn't been a big issue.

2. after I use this program and import the new "proj" files to FCP, is it supposed to work natively or do I have to render? it's strange, because some of the files I don't have to render, while others I do. Do you think it has something to do with me capturing with iMovie 08? FCP kept quitting on me each time I tried to log & capture and I just couldn't figure it out. But still, it seems strange that a few of the files didn't need rendering when I didn't do anything different to those.

Thanks again, and any further advice is much appreciated.

[Itinerant1]

I have a follow-up question to Charles' workflow, above (http://support.apple.com/kb/HT2410?viewlocale=en_US):

The instructions for the Compressor workflow say to select the setting named "Apple ProRes 422 for Progressive material". However, there's also an option for "Apple ProRes 422 for Progressive material (High Quality)"...

Q: Since I filmed in HD, should I use the "High Quality" setting?

[Carniphage]

I have a follow-up question to Charles' workflow, above (http://support.apple.com/kb/HT2410?viewlocale=en_US):

The instructions for the Compressor workflow say to select the setting named "Apple ProRes 422 for Progressive material". However, there's also an option for "Apple ProRes 422 for Progressive material (High Quality)"...

Q: Since I filmed in HD, should I use the "High Quality" setting?

Both of these settings work for HD material.
High Quality is slightly less compressed. But since your source material is from the heavily compressed HDV source the difference would be invisible.

C.

[Swefsvr]

correct me if I am wrong,
HDV is 4:2:0 color space and ProRES is 4:2:2
Thus, when import from HDV to ProRes the color space will still be 4:2:0
I was impressed with ProRes codec when I first saw it at NAB tho.

[Carniphage]

correct me if I am wrong,
HDV is 4:2:0 color space and ProRES is 4:2:2
Thus, when import from HDV to ProRes the color space will still be 4:2:0
I was impressed with ProRes codec when I first saw it at NAB tho.

HDV is also heavily compressed using MPEG2. So you will not gain any quality simply going from HDV to ProRes422.

But if you are doing a number of steps in post - ProRes will preserve quality. HDV would degrade with each re-compression.

C.

[svar]

For us using PAL (the pal is 25P if Im not wrong) I guess this statement is true:

"get properties on the clip and select "none" in the field dominance box. if the sequence is also set to none it will not ask to change anything and you will enjoy true 25p editing"

We dont have to mess whid pulldown and stuff :)


One more thing: I guss its true, that if I convert HDV to ProRes I dont get any better quality, but I guess the converted ProRes is better if I want to use the shoots for motion and color that the HDV because of the drop in quality for eatch compression?
Corect me if Im wrong.

[svar]

See also here: http://docs.info.apple.com/article.html?artnum=306389

I was thinking, is this article only needy for the ntsc verson? (that needs pulldown)
For us using PAL, we can still import 25p footage as 1080i50 and set "field dominance" to "none" and that is it?

[Erik Bien]

I was thinking, is this article only needy for the ntsc verson? (that needs pulldown)?

Exactly! :hv20-smilie77:

[svar]

Thanks :)
We PAL users are so lucky sometimes :hv20-smilie79:

[johnnyendeavour]

so what happens if an NTSC guy like me hooks up with two PAL hv20 guys here in Minsk at a big rock concert? and want to put our footage together... in FCP 6 - is this a nightmare to be avoided or what can I do to have the footage work together ? Any advice greatly appreciated!

[mackidbrendan]

so i have some 24p footage i shot on my HV30 the other day and i followed these steps. when i go to look at the new .mov files that JES created they are all 50% of the original size? is that suspose to happen? i thought they would be the same size...

[localstreethero]

Is this really all it takes to remove pull down? I just did some test footage and followed the step by step and didn't run into any troubles. I think the only thing was when i put the clip with the "proj" on the timeline it said i had to change the sequence settings. but looking at the step by step, i think i forgot to change the new sequence. any who, this isn't as bad as I thought it would be nor as bad as other members have complained about. I read someone saying they're not going to use 24p/PF24 until FCP can remove pull down with a click of a button. lazy i guess.

Anyways, I would like to thank the OP for this great and extremely easy steb-by-step. THANK YOU.

[The Crowing]

My problem is i still have to render every clip i drag into the timeline even after following this workflow. What is the deal!!!!

[localstreethero]

when following this guideline, do you have to de-interlaced when you upload to vimeo? or is it already done?

[dearcatastrophe]

I read someone saying they're not going to use 24p/PF24 until FCP can remove pull down with a click of a button. lazy i guess.



fcp can remove pulldown with the click of a button IF the camera sets flags for pulldown removal. canon has been pretty adamant that the consumer line won't include this helpful ability, it's in the pro range. canon, not apple needs to step up to the plate on this one.

but honestly, it is a simple process to remove pulldown.

[iThinkergoiMac]

canon, not apple needs to step up to the plate on this one.

True. But with FCS2, you can essentially do it with one or two clicks.

[localstreethero]

Removing pull down really is only a few clicks. I feel like i'm doing something wrong because its so easy. and I answered my own question about de interlacing by watching the video.

[Hottate]

Did you ever have any problems with jes because i am...it doesnt seem to be finding the cadence on certain clips. Do i need to trim those clips to the pppii at the start? cause i was really excited after i got the 24p with jes but then on certain clips it will just sit and never finish. man i wish it would work every time i dont get it..

I'm getting this cadence error as well. any help? Maybe a footage recapture perhaps?

[iThinkergoiMac]

I'm getting this cadence error as well. any help? Maybe a footage recapture perhaps?

Have you checked the detect cadence breaks option?

[Hottate]

Have you checked the detect cadence breaks option?
that just seems to be detecting them, but not doing anything about it.
should i click, "make reference movies" or "suppress interlaced scene changes"?

[Hottate]

Seems to keep getting hung up on the last frame. I keep hitting "resume" but. to no avail.
Haven't been able to successfully do this to one single clip yet! For a consumer camera, this sure is a pain in the ass.

[iThinkergoiMac]

Seems to keep getting hung up on the last frame. I keep hitting "resume" but. to no avail.
Haven't been able to successfully do this to one single clip yet! For a consumer camera, this sure is a pain in the ass.

Weird, I haven't run into this issue at all. You don't need the reference movie option or the suppress option. Try trashing the JES prefs, running a permissions repair, and even reinstalling JES or updating to the latest version (which requires Leopard, if you don't have it, stick with the 2nd latest version).

[localstreethero]

Just curious, how did you capture your footage from tape to FCP?

[iThinkergoiMac]

Just curious, how did you capture your footage from tape to FCP?

I'm assuming this is a general question. For me, I just use the capture now and let it capture everything, then delete what I don't want. Since FCP makes a new clip for every start/stop this is far more efficient for me than some sort of log and capture or batch capture. It helps that whenever I shoot videos, I shoot with this in mind, so I use the start/stop button a lot.

[yahdood]

Why do you capture in 60i when you're trying to capture 24p footage?

[cgbier]

HV40 can be captured in 24p, the older models have their 24p wrapped into 60i. Therefore, you'll have to capture 60i and do the pulldown thingie in Compressor.

[yahdood]

HV40 can be captured in 24p, the older models have their 24p wrapped into 60i. Therefore, you'll have to capture 60i and do the pulldown thingie in Compressor.

Or if I don't have Compressor, by using JES?

[cgbier]

Use JES, but don't forget that FCP is the only Apple software that can work with 24p without tricks.

[yahdood]

Use JES, but don't forget that FCP is the only Apple software that can work with 24p without tricks.

I have FCP, just not Compressor.

[HueyNRolf]

Compressor comes with FCP, maybe you need to install it from the DVDs.

[iThinkergoiMac]

I believe Compressor installs from the same DVD as FCP, and installs by default unless you actively turned that option off.

[Maxwell]

So I imported some footage in FCP. Its not separating every shot or scene I shot. It imports every thing into one thing.

[cgbier]

Max: Capture settings???

Man, one could think you just joined here yesterday ;)

[Maxwell]

Capture settings: Apple Pro-Res 422.

[Bearerotso]

I recently shot parts of a friend's music video with my canon HV30 in 24p mode and I removed the pull down no problem with compressor...at least I think I did...

I captured the footage from the camera in FCP as HDV 1080i60, then put the clips through compressor useing the following settings:

-Encoder
File Format: Quicktime Movie (.mov)
Audio: Pass-through
Compression Type: HDV 1080p24
Frame-rate (custom): 23.976
Checked "All" under key-frames

-Frame Controls
Deinterlace: Reverse Telecine

-Geometry
Frame Size: 1440X1080 [Custom 16:9]
Pixel Aspect: 0.7500 [HDV 1080i (16:9)]

Basically, I followed the directions on Apple's site, but useing the HDV 1080p24 codec instead of the Prores 422. Is there any reason this wouldn't work? I put the video on Youtube here: YouTube- Flowers in Alcohol - Boog (Canon HV30 24p Test)