Canon HF S10- AVCHD, CS3? Workflow?

[telacc]

Hello!

This is my 3rd forum where I am asking this questions and since there was poor response on previous 2 (only 1 nice girl replied) and because there is Canon camera involved I am posting this here also.

I just read brand new Canon HF S100 review on camcorderinfo.com. In few months I am planing to purchase Canon camcorder. I wanted to buy HV 30 model, but since the "cassette technology and standard " is becoming obsolete (and after reading a lot of written material on the Internet) I decided to purchase HF S10 PAL model, which records in AVCHD format- codec which is primary made for recording, not for editing. Since I do not have quite up do date performance computer and own only CS3 I need to know what is the best work flow using SW and HW resources I own?

I already read forums with this topics and this is the solution I found:
1. recording

2. converting .mts files to appropriate format. On this forum I found this SW http://www.avchdmtsconverter.com/. Is there any quality loss when the file is converted? Are there any better converting alternatives? Adobe recommends http://www.blackmagic-design.com/products/intensity/ ?! Is it possible to convert to image sequences?

3. 3d tracking with Syntheyes, compositing & editing in AE CS3,
4. rendering and exporting

Is this the right way? What is the best practice? I am especially interested in procedures in 2nd step above.

Thank you for your answers and take care!

RE
Matt

PS. Since I am worried that people do not respond due to my poor English I am asking someone to reply if my topic and questions are clear and the main idea is understandable.

__________________
PPS. I am sorry for the grammar mistakes in the text. English is not my primary spoken language (it is my 3rd one:). RE Matt a.k.a. telacc

[designbydave]

Hey Matt

I hassled with AVCHD editing in CS3 for 8 months or so. I tried so many different combinations of solutions its crazy, can't even think of them all. Your best bet today would be to just bite the bullet and upgrade to CS4. It handles AVCHD naively.

Oh and I just noticed you said you don't have a very fast computer. Might be a reason to stay away from AVCHD. It is a very compressed and processor intensive codec and you need all the horsepower you can get, not just editing but playback as well. I recommend a Core2Duo minimum, preferred a Core2Quad.

[Squidley]

Not sure if you've already found a solution to your problem, but right now I'm forced to use a JVC HD7 to record services at my church and the files it produce are not supported by Primere CS4.

I use a software called MPEG Streamclip to covert my TOD files to DV. I really don't know if there is a big drop in quality because the quality of the recordings I'm getting is not great to begin with. Premiere likes DV.
My computer is not that fast. I have a core 2 Duo running at 2.1Ghz with 3G RAM.

If you've not already bought software, you could give MPEG Streamclip a go. Its free.

[Barnaby]

Would cineform work for AVCHD conversion?

[Sagefox]

Well this happens to be the best forum you could have come to about this.

The answer for AVC is TMPGENC Xpress 4. Get a recent version and don't look back.

It makes workflow a dream.

Forget about native AVCHD editing, thats a pipe dream. Avc was never meant for that, just display. Convert to 24p mpeg2 proxies with tmpgenc, and then replace with HD 24 conversions.

[easysqueeze]

One Good option will always be to use Cineform. PropectHD from Cineform can convert most source video formats into Cineform AVI or MOV files which is visually identical in quality to the original video source. Cineform has presets for editing in Premier or even now in Final Cut, which makes editing HD a breeze compared to working with the Native format e.g AVCHD. I edit in Premier CS3 and i had 4-5 layers of 1920 x 1080 clips on the time line and Cineform would play back with color correction and transitions smoothly in realtime without rendering... after editing you can export to whatever format you want. I usually will export AVI Uncompressed for Ultimate quality and then Usse TMPGEnc to compress using stuff like H.264 for online or to devices like Ipod Etc... This, I think is probably your better options IMHO.

Safari

[Thronsen]

As long as we are talking about the output from the HFS-10....

Does anyone know what exactly the .cpi file does that comes with the .mts file when you import via the included Pixela software? Is it something that is important to keep track of (and to copy over at all when you use a card reader).

BTW, should there be any difference between copying the file off a card reader, and importing it from the camera using the USB? My USB connection is unreliable.

Also would something like CoreAVC improve the performance of the Pixela software for playback? Or Media Player Classic (when I ask MPC to play the MTS files, it gets halfway through and the picture freezes). Im not looking to edit anything, just want an easy way to view and organize the files and delete the ones I dont need.

Thanks for any help.

[Jack Frost]

If you use Premiere exclusively, check out the CS4 4.1 update which addresses AVCHD problems with slow editing, this has been fixed, the new release was just put out 3 days ago.

I see you are on CS3, so it may be good to upgrade to CS4.

P.S. - you should subscribe to the Adobe forums for CS4 products, there are many there that use AVCHD and are showing very good results with the new 4.1 update released this week,
saying all problems have disappeared. Some saying editing is 10x easier, and video is easy to edit.

Adobe forums for this are very good, if you use Adobe products.




3. 3d tracking with Syntheyes, compositing & editing in AE CS3,
4. rendering and exporting

Is this the right way? What is the best practice? I am especially interested in procedures in 2nd step above.

[machoman]

One Good option will always be to use Cineform. PropectHD from Cineform can convert most source video formats into Cineform AVI or MOV files which is visually identical in quality to the original video source. Cineform has presets for editing in Premier or even now in Final Cut, which makes editing HD a breeze compared to working with the Native format e.g AVCHD. I edit in Premier CS3 and i had 4-5 layers of 1920 x 1080 clips on the time line and Cineform would play back with color correction and transitions smoothly in realtime without rendering... after editing you can export to whatever format you want. I usually will export AVI Uncompressed for Ultimate quality and then Usse TMPGEnc to compress using stuff like H.264 for online or to devices like Ipod Etc... This, I think is probably your better options IMHO.

Safari

i've been trying to learn as much as i can about AVCHD through forums. With Cineform - don't you transcode ie. change it to another format - intermediate codec - and i've read that AVCHD will lose quality like a generation loss on intermediate transcoding. Can someone confirm that?Does that also means that other formats like HVD or even standard definition mpeg will not lose quality with intermediate codec - or maybe they don't need intermediate codec?

[Jack Frost]

U may want to check out this forum:
http://www.hdmom.com/forum/avchd-format-discussion/



i've been trying to learn as much as i can about AVCHD through forums. With Cineform - don't you transcode ie. change it to another format - intermediate codec - and i've read that AVCHD will lose quality like a generation loss on intermediate transcoding. Can someone confirm that?Does that also means that other formats like HVD or even standard definition mpeg will not lose quality with intermediate codec - or maybe they don't need intermediate codec?

[FuGZ]

Hey guys,

I've used the Canon HV20 for almost a year now, and now have my Panny HMC150. Cameras may be unrelated, but i work with AVCHD now. I'm on CS4, and PP is just fine editing AVCHD natively. Usually with HDV, i'd use proxy files to edit with which i planned with the AVCHD.

Almost doomed i was, AE CS4 doesn't render AVCHD pretty well. Tends to skip frames here and there, very frequently. I couldn't accept this, as most of my treated videos (AE timelines) are brought into PP, which brings the "spoiled" clips.

There's always DVCPRO HD, but i was torn between using that or a MPEG-2 format which resembles the HDV format due to resolution and compression rate. I couldn't afford 100mbps of DVCPRO HD. Cineform, not likely my choice, and Tmpgenc fails on Windows 7 64bit, i just don't want to go back to an older version.

But i've found a solution, probably a temproary one till i find a better one, or when Adobe fixes the AE AVCHD issue. I batch convert (using the media encoder) my footage to 25-35mbps VBR MPEG-2 files and only noticed a little, tiny bit softness which i don't think anyone would notice when watched on an LCD TV, which i find very acceptable. MPEG-2 isn't really an ideal intermediary codec but the workflow is so far so good.

Lucky the Adobe Media Encoder CS4 enables batch conversion with editable presets, so far i'm saved. So those on CS3 not using windows 7 may just use tmpgenc since adobe media encoder is only available for CS4.

[designbydave]

Hey FuGZ, did you install the latest update for CS4? They addressed many of the AVCHD issues and performance is much improved.

[machoman]

Hi FuGz,
I've also noticed some loss of quality with the AVCHD files going through VEgas 9, TMPGENC and most other software. The reason is i believe its converting it to another format which introduces generation loss.

I"m currently only needing to play back through the WDTV media player and have tried using Elecard HD editor to trim/cut my clips and couldn't detect any loss of quality. If i neesd to produce a dvd or blue ray out of the files then i think i'll suffer quite a bit of loss of quality - its a pity though as the raw AVCHD files are quite incredible.

[FuGZ]

Hey FuGZ, did you install the latest update for CS4? They addressed many of the AVCHD issues and performance is much improved.
yes i did, dave. all up to date. only After Effects has a problem with AVCHD, although updated. AE is very very important in my workflow, can't do without it. And apparrently, i'm not the only one. But it seems to be fine on Premiere Pro though. After numerous searches, it seems the updates fixed PP, but not AE.

machoman,
yeah, the AVCHD thing is pretty much a show stopper. Live with it professionally (maybe not for all), end up converting it to something else before the real work happens in the editing room..

[designbydave]

yes i did, dave. all up to date. only After Effects has a problem with AVCHD, although updated. AE is very very important in my workflow, can't do without it. And apparrently, i'm not the only one. But it seems to be fine on Premiere Pro though. After numerous searches, it seems the updates fixed PP, but not AE.

Darn. Yeah I updated, but only played with Premiere, haven't had a chance to try After Effects yet.

[FuGZ]

designbydave,
just thought you might wanna know, i convert all my AVCHD files to Canopus HQ. I'll update you guys with my workflow once i get this current job done. All i can say for now is, it's wonderful.

[Magoostus]

DO NOT, I REPEAT DO NOT USE AFTEREFFECT OR PREMIERE TO DECODE AVCHD FOOTAGE. adobe always decodes avchd and converts to RGB using rec601 even though it says its using rec709, ITS NOT, COLORS GET RUINED.

[lionant]

When you output to DVD to play only in a DVD player, what format do you use. I used to output 720X480 29.97 fps uncompressed avi in Premiere, then used TMPG to convert over to Mpeg2, and then used Ulead DVD program to make my DVD title.
I used Premiere 4 the other day and output my mts file as a DVD mpeg2, and also mpeg2 and kept original setting, not 720X480 29.97. I am geting jerky video that does not match the sound. I forgot the exact settings, but of course the fram size is bigger and i think the fps is smaller. What do I need to set my settings for export as in the adobe media encder to get workable files to either export to TMPG or direct to Ulead for burning. Do I need to resize down to 720X480 and 29.97 fps?
I want to use Adobe Prem for editing, but what else do you recommend to go with it,,,Cineform, Canopus HQ, or something else?
When I look at videos on Vimeo, I wonder what file format the output in also.
But my main concern is what settings should i choose to export my mts file to make a mpeg or something else that can be imported to make a DVD.
Is there other processes you are doing to make DVD's from mts files?
Any other programs you recommend and what are the settings you use.
Thank you very much on any help on this.

[hvkoji]

I am on a Win7 64bit with a quadcore, 4gb RAM and all files are stored on an extern Raid0 with very fast WD Caviar harddiscs - still AVCHD (Canon S100) gives me the creeps.

I tried several methods:
Cineform (didn't work)
Tmpeg (not on Win7)
Adobe Media Encoder to P2 DVCPRO HD 100
native AVC editing
and:
Mainconcept HD 4

so far my 1080 24p files work the best if transfered to DVCPRO. The eidting unter Mainconcept is OK but simply doesn't work when it comes to 1080. Even though you have presets for all kind of resolution (no 60p!), everything is damn slow and this gives me a real hard time.

So far the CS4.1 is OK but it doesn't solve the AVCHD issue at all. We are all stuck. There is the hardware but what is missing is a propper software solution. This sucks.

If anybody found a good way to edit AVCHD on CS4 - let me know!

[lionant]

I tried a few different ways of exporting AVCHD to 720X480 avi/mpeg for DVD use, but a huge drop in quality. i am using Premiere CS4.
Do I need to de-interlace, or use 2 or 3 different programs to get good quality for export.
It would be great for people to share the exact setting, export options, and software for exporting to regular DVD, Youtube, Vimeo, or Divx.
Maybe I will be forced to get a Blueray player, and just burn my mts files to disk, or some other external device. But I want to share my films with others that can only videw through a regular DVD player.
The mts files look and play great on my computer, but suare are crappy when converted toward DVD.
Is anyone else pulling at there hair to find a good way of exporting the mts file?

[FuGZ]

I still don't have the time to update but, here's abit of my workflow. Eats up HDD space tho.

1. If any trimming is needed, Elecard's AVCHD editor trims without transcoding involved (smart render).
2. AVCHD files which are ready to edit, are converted to Canopus HQ (sometimes Standard setting, sometimes Fine) using a free software; AVCHD2HQ (Color space conversion RGB to IRE, eliminates grey shade over footage in PP & AE).
3. If i need to edit files on the go with my lappie, i make drafts with AE, as *.avi (Microsoft Video 1 format) and proxy edit in PP CS4.
4. Color correction lies in AE timelines, on the Canopus HQ files, but effects are left OFF during PP editing (or ON if proxy editing is involved).
5. One editing is done in PP, effects are then switched on in the AE timelines. If proxy editing is involved, just switch to the AE timelines.
6. Render to 720p/1080p/1080i.
7. Render file produced in No.6 in DVD format if required with Procoder.

Fantastic results.

[alexpj19]

hi everyone, im new to this forum, but reading it helped me alot figuring out my hf s10 workflow that i can deadl with, so check out my youtube test footage:
YouTube - CS3 Edit MPEG2 HDTV 720P 29 97

and if you like it here is my workflow:
all was shot at 24 fps and 30 fps using Cine mode and vivid color modes. mts files were converted in to Mpeg2 with "Elecard Converter" than edited in "Premiere CS3" at 1080i_29.97, rendered out as "MPEG2_HDTV 720P_29.97" with out any color or gamma correction. enjoy

[hvkoji]

folks,

This whole editing thing still gives me the creeps. I am working for TV and at our channel we have all the time the same, nearly perfect workflow, so I am a little but spoiled by that but when it comes to editing my HV100 footage (24p) this is it where it hurts.

I still haven't found a good way of editing the stuff. Converting to P2 is possible but also this is working too good and needs a lot of time.
All in all CS4 is nothing but a BIG pain. I'll now try Sony Vegas - which I hate - but maybe it will work better.

If anybody has a good solution - hit me a line!

[LarBrd33]

Is there a consensus on what the best workflow for HFS10 avchd files is?

I have CS4, but editing the native files are very slow and choppy. What program is the best to use to convert these files before importing them? What settings do you use within that program? Are any of these options free? Thanks.

[maayanfi]

What I do is convert the files using a nice batch. Yes, I believe it does reduce quality, but I don't think it's dramatic.

download ffmpeg through here:
http://www.videohelp.com/download/ffmpeg-0.5.7z

I created a batch called MTS2AVI.bat on my desktop which does the following:
ffmpeg.exe -i %1 -vcodec libx264 -sameq -b 20000k -acodec copy -rc_eq 'blurCplx^(1-qComp)' -threads 0 -copyts %1.avi
pause

You simply drag a file on the batch and it does the work.
the parameters are h264 codec using maximum of 20kbits/second, copies the audio, not sure about the rc_eq, i copied it.
copyts is copy timestamps.

Is there any way to improve this ?

[Joker B]

It's a tragedy that either:
"ffmpeg" can't also rotate 180 degrees while transcoding (which would be great for flipped 35mm adapters like the cinemek or the jag)
(or) I just don't know how to use ffmpeg


As for your .BAT file, I have a one-stop-fits-most python script that I use to manage still, video, and audio tracks. A plus for me is that it runs under Mac, Windows, or linux. I just put the card into the reader and run the script, it recognizes the contents of the card and archives it all appropriately. I'd love to have it do transcoding too!

[davidkenneth]

what program would be best and easiest to do editing?

i want to make a movie in 24p and i have a pc.

i know nothing.

:hv20-smilie45:

[ejolson]

It's a tragedy that either:
"ffmpeg" can't also rotate 180 degrees while transcoding (which would be great for flipped 35mm adapters like the cinemek or the jag)
(or) I just don't know how to use ffmpeg


I have a small yuv4mpeg filter that can rotate and flip. Pipe the output of ffmpeg to this filter and immediately pipe it back into another copy of ffmpeg for encoding.

[tramoliter]

I wanna thank everbody here in this thread for all the advice on workflow. I just got my S11 yesterday and with your help I now have an effective workflow to get great quality out of my Camera. Im using TMPGEnc Xpress v4 7 4 299 to convert the files and the load them into Priemier CS3. I export them out of PP and then if I need a smaller file, back into TMPGEnc Xpress it goes. The smaller video is excellent quality and Im hard pressed to see any noticible difference between the two except the big one opens full screen in media player and the smaller one does not open so large. I had so much trouble getting pro results outta my HV20. The S11 is just puttin smiles on my face with the quality it produces.