2:35 Aspect Ratio: Black Boxes versus Correct Resolution

[erikbaldwinson]

Why do some people choose to crop the picture just before exporting versus actually making a project with the correct resolution of ex. 1920 x 800 and exporting at that resolution?

And 2.35, 2.39, 2.40. Are any of those correct or should I be choosing one in particular..

[Erik Bien]

And 2.35, 2.39, 2.40. Are any of those correct or should I be choosing one in particular..

In the US, current movie aspect ratios (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aspect_ratio_(image)#Cinema_terminology) are 1.85:1 and 2.39:1 (anamorphic widescreen). Prior to 1970, anamorphic widescreen was 2.35:1, so some people still use that, or "round up" to 2.40:1, but what they really mean is 2.39:1. For comparison, 3:4 SD video is 1.33:1 and 16:9 HDV is 1.78:1.

[erikbaldwinson]

Thanks Erik, I really appreciate the feedback. Any chance you can shed some light on my first question?

[SenorKaffee]

Why do some people choose to crop the picture just before exporting versus actually making a project with the correct resolution of ex. 1920 x 800 and exporting at that resolution?

And 2.35, 2.39, 2.40. Are any of those correct or should I be choosing one in particular..

I always make a project without black bars, but I can think of a few reasons.

1) My application only works with fixed resolutions, there is a 1080p setting and that's it.
2) I want to see how the whole screen will look like to the user. In a scaled down preview window it's sometimes hard to imagine the black bars.
3) My output medium has a fixed resolution of 1920x1080 and I have to add black bars anyway. Internet services usually don't mind, but BluRay for instance is limited to a set of standardized resolutions.

[Ian-T]

Why do some people choose to crop the picture just before exporting versus actually making a project with the correct resolution of ex. 1920 x 800 and exporting at that resolution?

Because the result would be a squeezed image making everyone look fat (lol).

[sdeming]

Also, the black bars (if done properly) aren't just 'thrown in' at the end. They give the editior some vertical scan abilities with each shot. So, for every clip you edit, you can move the image up or down if needed to find the perfect vertical framing. Artistically it gives the editor and cinematographer some wiggle room.

Now if only we could do the same thing for the horizontal. Can I get an Amen?

[erikbaldwinson]

Because the result would be a squeezed image making everyone look fat (lol).

No. If you throw 1920 x 1080 footage into a 1920 x 800 project the playback monitor cuts your footage accordingly and doesn't "squeeze it"(mine doesn't anyway). What I don't understand is some people end up still exporting with black bars. Why do this versus just exporting at the proper resolution of 1920 x 800.

If you add black bars to a 16:9 frame and watch the video on a screen that isn't 16:9 you get two sets of black bars.


I use CS3.. maybe this can't be achieved with vegas and black bars are a must?

[erikbaldwinson]

Also, the black bars (if done properly) aren't just 'thrown in' at the end. They give the editior some vertical scan abilities with each shot. So, for every clip you edit, you can move the image up or down if needed to find the perfect vertical framing. Artistically it gives the editor and cinematographer some wiggle room.

Now if only we could do the same thing for the horizontal. Can I get an Amen?

One would think you taped off your LCD properly but I hear you. I still don't understand why someone wouldn't end up exporting 2.4 after anyway?

[Ian-T]

Like SDeming is saying the advantage you have by cropping before hand in Vegas is to set up all of your shots perfectly. Doing it in the end is not a good idea at all (IMO). If you are going to crop a picture it will affect every new scene. That's why in Vegas you can setup a scene just the way you like it "before" you render. In other words...tilt it to wherever you like. I often do this whee there is a lot of up and down movement in the scene.

[Ian-T]

If you add black bars to a 16:9 frame and watch the video on a screen that isn't 16:9 you get two sets of black bars.
So what's the issue? Let's use your scenario for a moment: Even if you Export your video to 1920X800 where there is no black bars (like how I do sometimes in Quicktime files)....on a screen that is not 16:9 (like the two I'm currently using) it will just ADD those missing black bars back when I watch it on full screen anyways.

[erikbaldwinson]

So what's the issue? Let's use your scenario for a moment: Even if you Export your video to 1920X800 where there is no black bars (like how I do sometimes in Quicktime files)....on a screen that is not 16:9 (like the two I'm currently using) it will just ADD those missing black bars back when I watch it on full screen anyways.

It doesn't matter what screen you export it on...?
Yes it will just add the black bars if you don't add them yourself but it will add them properly. If you add black bars to your 16:9 video and play that back on you're computer not full screen you still have black bars... why would you want that? And if you playback on a TV that's 4:3 you'll end up getting two sets of black bars... the ones you added to your 16:9 video and the ones the TV will make.

[erikbaldwinson]

Like SDeming is saying the advantage you have by cropping before hand in Vegas is to set up all of your shots perfectly. Doing it in the end is not a good idea at all (IMO). If you are going to crop a picture it will affect every new scene. That's why in Vegas you can setup a scene just the way you like it "before" you render. In other words...tilt it to wherever you like. I often do this whee there is a lot of up and down movement in the scene.

Yeah I agree with him, that makes sense, what doesn't make sense is exporting with those black bars.

[Ian-T]

From re-reading your posts I don't think you quite understand. No one is adding any new set of black bars...the video in the end will always be 16:9. ALl we are doing is cropping the image.... The purpose is to get that 2:35 aspect ratio. In other words the whole image will be a little thinner than regular 1920x1080. That's the same aspect ratio we see in the movie theaters. When you watch some trailers...let's say Apple Trailers....they are extra wide like that. The quicktime codec is the only codec I know that can completely cut off those black bars to so you can view it in their player....but even still....once you hit the option to view it on Full screen (on a monitor that is not 16:9...then the computer will add those black bars back no matter what you do.

When you mention that the computer will add the black bars properly....yes I agree. But that would not be the same aspect ratio we are looking for.

[Ian-T]

Check out this image from Wikipedia:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/c/c7/Aspect_ratio.PNG/300px-Aspect_ratio.PNG

The Red area represents my computer screen which is 4:3
The Blue area (3rd line down) is the 16:9 image we will get from our cameras (no matter what).

The problem is 16:9 is bigger than 4:3 so in order to fit that 16:9 image into our computer screen the image is shrunk down...which then the NLE creates black bars above and below. It's within that 16:9 image our 1920x1080 or 1440x1080 image sits comfortably

So...within the same 4:3 computer monitor we want to create an aspect ratio that matches what we actually see in the movie theater...which is the 2:39:1 image in this illustration. 2:39:1 is wider and narrower than all those aspect ratios. To get there we crop even further to 1920x800 (or even 1440x800). You might thik we are adding even more black bars...but really we are just cropping to match that type ot ratio. It's actually the same 16:9 image... Nothing was increased....it was just cropped. When we watch it back the image is still 16:9 but we can't see the upper and lower black bars (duh) So it gives you the illusion that this was filmed on a wider (anamorphic) lens.

Movies crop thier image all the time and have been doing it for years so that the image could fit our television screen properly. Next time you see a movie on TV...and if you have the DVD to that movie....if you were able to check them side by side you will realize that the TV version is actually cuttin off quite a bit of the picture.

[jakjak9210]

Artistically it gives the editor and cinematographer some wiggle room.

Now if only we could do the same thing for the horizontal. Can I get an Amen?

Shoot in 2k!
:D
i wish

[erikbaldwinson]

So...within the same 4:3 computer monitor we want to create an aspect ratio that matches what we actually see in the movie theater...which is the 2:39:1 image in this illustration. 2:39:1 is wider and narrower than all those aspect ratios. To get there we crop even further to 1920x800 (or even 1440x800). You might thik we are adding even more black bars...but really we are just cropping to match that type ot ratio. It's actually the same 16:9 image... Nothing was increased....it was just cropped. When we watch it back the image is still 16:9 but we can't see the upper and lower black bars (duh) So it gives you the illusion that this was filmed on a wider (anamorphic) lens.

Movies crop thier image all the time and have been doing it for years so that the image could fit our television screen properly. Next time you see a movie on TV...and if you have the DVD to that movie....if you were able to check them side by side you will realize that the TV version is actually cuttin off quite a bit of the picture.


There seems to be some sort of confusion. I understand aspect ratios. It's funny because you're completely missing what I'm saying. SOME PEOPLE ADD BLACK BARS TO THEIR VIDEO.. and I mean they literally ADD BLACK BARS. NO they do not crop, I mean they actually add the black bars to their 16x9 video. YES to give the illusion it is 2.4.1 but why not actually export to the PROPER RESOLUTION. Check out this short.

example 1
White Red Panic (HD) on Vimeo

example 2
Film Look Test w/HV30 & Jag35 on Vimeo

I want to know WHY he added black bars and didn't export at the proper resolution he wanted it to be viewed at instead.

ps: sorry there must be a miss-communication I don't mean to come off rude.


Movies crop thier image all the time and have been doing it for years so that the image could fit our television screen properly. Next time you see a movie on TV...and if you have the DVD to that movie....if you were able to check them side by side you will realize that the TV version is actually cuttin off quite a bit of the picture.

Yes sometimes movies release a "fullscreen" version. Or when they're on TV they are played back fullscreen. Sometimes they are cropped to 16:9 as well. Both these lose compromise part of what was originally meant to be seen in the frame. This is true!

[Ian-T]

I know you are not trying to be rude so no worries there.

But if you look at the codec used in both your samples they are using Quicktime. Remember I said above that Quicktime is the only CODEC (that I know of) that is able to completely crop of the top and bottom of your video. That's why when you watch Quicktime files in Web browsers most of the time you see nothing but video.....no black bars. Vegas does not do that.....even when you encode your video to Quicktime through Vegas. You either need a Mac or the Quicktime Pro player to do that...(TMPEng(sp)) does it also when encodng to Quicktime.

So... my best guess is that they actually cut off the black bars in post and uploaded those clips to Vimeo. Vimeo tries to properly show it as is.

Edit: I don't know of any way to do that in Vegas. You would have to export your file to a intermediate and take that file into Quicktime Pro to actually crop off the black bars. Maybe Premier does it internally...or even After Effects....but I know of no way from within Vegas. And personally I don't think it's necessary because depending on what type of monitor you have it will just add the black bars back anyways.

[Ian-T]

I'm sure they also edited their footage 1st within their NLE cropped. And then chopped off the black bars at the end.

[SenorKaffee]

YouTube is a good example - making it enable the HD option needs you to stick to some standards. I uploaded a 1280*540 project there (about 2.37:1), but HD wasn't enabled. Then I added black bars to get to the standard 1280*720 and guess what, HD was enabled. Vimeo is not so picky, from my experience it takes everything which is 1280*something and enables HD.

It's the same with BluRay - 1920*800 is no valid resolution, you authoring program will not accept it and if you get it to accept it your player will not play it because it is not in the standard. So you need to get to a valid resolution like 1920*1080 by... adding black bars (or go anamorphic).

Sometimes people are also just too lazy to encode optimized versions for several services. So if they need black bars for Service A (YouTube, BD) they use the same source for Service B although it would work at the proper resolution.

[Lucasberg]

What about this one at 2.35:1-ish done in Vegas?
Desert trip on Vimeo
I cropped it and exported it.

Edit, I thought you said it couldn't be done. Yes on my PS3 it adds black bars .

[erikbaldwinson]

What about this one at 2.35:1-ish done in Vegas?
Desert trip on Vimeo (http://www.vimeo.com/2255520)
I cropped it and exported it.

Edit, I thought you said it couldn't be done. Yes on my PS3 it adds black bars .

what codec did you use to export it?

[erikbaldwinson]

I know you are not trying to be rude so no worries there.

But if you look at the codec used in both your samples they are using Quicktime. Remember I said above that Quicktime is the only CODEC (that I know of) that is able to completely crop of the top and bottom of your video. That's why when you watch Quicktime files in Web browsers most of the time you see nothing but video.....no black bars. Vegas does not do that.....even when you encode your video to Quicktime through Vegas. You either need a Mac or the Quicktime Pro player to do that...(TMPEng(sp)) does it also when encodng to Quicktime.

So... my best guess is that they actually cut off the black bars in post and uploaded those clips to Vimeo. Vimeo tries to properly show it as is.

Edit: I don't know of any way to do that in Vegas. You would have to export your file to a intermediate and take that file into Quicktime Pro to actually crop off the black bars. Maybe Premier does it internally...or even After Effects....but I know of no way from within Vegas. And personally I don't think it's necessary because depending on what type of monitor you have it will just add the black bars back anyways.

hmm well I'm able to select a resolution of 1920 x 800 with other codecs they just aren't playing back properly. I'll do some research and get back to you.

[vnguyen972]

It's possible to encoded it and cropped it in Vegas using h264 codec as well as in Adobe Media Encoder... to have it at 2.39:1 ratio (1280x544)... but what I'm still struggling to get that encoded to put on a DVD or Bluray to play it as is... I tried it but the end result is a squished pictures with 4x3 with letterbox... I still couldn't figure it out yet...

[Lou van Wijhe]

What about this (http://www.homecinemachoice.com/blogs/team_HCC/Philips+Cinema+ultra+widescreen+LCD+TV)? Interesting for classic movie fans I think, but on the other hand, it's quite an investment for an outgoing format.

Lou

[Frank]

It's possible to encoded it and cropped it in Vegas using h264 codec as well as in Adobe Media Encoder... to have it at 2.39:1 ratio (1280x544)... but what I'm still struggling to get that encoded to put on a DVD or Bluray to play it as is... I tried it but the end result is a squished pictures with 4x3 with letterbox... I still couldn't figure it out yet...

I'm pretty sure you can't do it on DVD; you will need 16:9 with black bars even on an anamorphic DVD.
Blu-ray I don't know about, but I suspect it's the same.

[Ian-T]

@Lou....NICE!!!