Canon XH A1

[spudgun]

Ok. So I'm a long term user of the HV30, which I love, but I am now looking to upgrade. Firstly, I want something to use in my job, (journalist), and am used to using the Sony Z1, shooting in DVCAM. Although it isn't specifically designed as an ENG camera, it produces a FAR superior image, in my estimation, than the Sony. (Then again, the HV30 produces a better image than this 'pro' sony cam, but there you go)

Secondly, I also want a camera to enhance what filmaking capabilities I posess. I' pretty certain that I'm going to purchase the Canon XH A1, but I'm willing to be talked out of it if someone knows a better machine.

Best wishes folks.
Spud

[dWyZaK]

I want one of those babies too, I think it's the right choice in that price band.

[Luxaltor]

I'd wait until Canon does their product updates in... April I think? (Or June, can someone clarify?) I would hate to buy an XH A1 now just to have something better come out a few months down the line. As far as the camera, it really is a beauty to work with. A friend has one and it is truly top notch. If you are still skeptical, go to CamcorderInfo and look at their extremely in-depth XH A1 review.

[Erik Bien]

I'd wait until Canon does their product updates in... April I think? (Or June, can someone clarify?)

Most video camera manufacturers introduce their new professional and pro-sumer models at the National Association of Broadcasters (http://www.nabshow.com/) show held in Las Vegas in mid-April (NAB '09 is April 20th-23rd).

[Duke]

NAB is in April, but they are model introductions that aren't always immediately available. Lots of new cameras are introduced at the $3,500 to $4,500 price range and drop down 6 months to a year later. You can go to the exhibits in Las Vegas for free if you want to. (As opposed to the classes.)

On the other hand a used XH-A1 can be had for $2,000-$2,300 if you look around. Suprisingly most A1s have very low hours. (But there's no meter.) In my opinion the S variant doesn't add useful features for most people. The A variant and up are all good.

[DaFireMedic]

Secondly, I also want a camera to enhance what filmaking capabilities I posess. I' pretty certain that I'm going to purchase the Canon XH A1, but I'm willing to be talked out of it if someone knows a better machine.
Spud

I'd never try to talk you out of the XH-A1, its a great camera. But I will tell you that after much research, last month I chose the HMC150 due to the tapeless workflow and very good low light sensitivity. Both have been well above my expectations since buying it and I absolutely love the camera. But if you can get an XH-A1 for $1000 (used) less than an HMC, that might just be the clincher (It also doesn't hurt that I am a Canon fan).

[fishops]

If the HMC150 had been available when I bought my XH A1, that is what I would have gone with. The manual lens, lcd functions and SD card workflow are a big upgrade from the A1.

It's not enough of an upgrade for me to trade though, I love my A1, and the ability to cook up unique color response presets is something that sets it apart in its class.

[Rumpelgeist]

The A1 is tape-based and its focus assist is not as good compared to Pana, JVC and Sony cameras. Resolution? The A1 uses hi-res sensors, but they are interlaced. The HMC150 uses low-res pixel-shifting sensors but AFAIK they are progressive. The net result is comparable. I would prefer the HMC150.

I am not in a rush, I am just an amateur with lust for gear, I will wait for NAB hoping that Canon will marry HFS100 or HV40 internals with GL-2 like body and with tapeless media.

[Duke]

The A1 is tape-based and its focus assist is not as good compared to Pana, JVC and Sony cameras. Resolution? The A1 uses hi-res sensors, but they are interlaced. The HMC150 uses low-res pixel-shifting sensors but AFAIK they are progressive. The net result is comparable. I would prefer the HMC150.

There is no doubt the HMC150 is a good camera. It depends on what you are most interested in.

The A1, being tape based, requires you to play the tape into the computer. The HV20-40 handle A1 tapes just fine. The HMC150 requires transcoding the file so there is no real time advantage as the HM100u has with it's MOV files.

The A1 has presets, and there are libraries of presets around, that can give it a very film like look.

The A1 sensor is higher definition, but it is interlaced. The A1 does a slight offset of the green channel to increase resolution and is a 3 CCD system that records as 24f. There is approx. 10% decrease in resolution (others have said) in 24f.

The HMC150 records 24p, but as mentioned, it has a low resolution (half a megapixel) sensor that is up rez'd twice. Barry Green, the big panny guru, has called it really a great 720p camera. At that rez it looks great.

The A1 resolution looks best at 60i, no wonder since that's what the sensors are. At that setting it's sharper than the HMC150. (Look at the clips on DVXuser.) At 24f it's still very, very good.

I think my most valid comment is that the A1 takes a big sensor reading and compresses it into a small data stream, and the HMC150 takes a small sensor reading and fills up a large data stream. The net results is very comparable.

That lead me to look at price and the fact that the A1 plays nicely with the HV20, plus the presets allow them to look the same, and that cemented my decision.

[DaFireMedic]

The HMC150 requires transcoding the file so there is no real time advantage as the HM100u has with it's MOV files.



HMC footage does not need to be transcoded, unless you are using an older computer (or a Mac, for the moment) or your software does not support AVCHD. My Quad Core edits it in real time with no discernable lag in Vegas. It is faster than capturing real time. My 3 year old dual core laptop will edit it, but it lags. For that, I transcode with Cineform Neo Scene. Time wise, its closer to capturing real time, but you can set it and come back when its done. I can't say enough about tapeless workflow, and its only getting better.



Barry Green, the big panny guru, has called it really a great 720p camera. At that rez it looks great.


This is correct. 720p is its "sweet spot". It looks very good at 1080 as well, but theres not any significant addition of detail. In ideal light, the A1 exceeds the HMC in sharpness.




The A1 has presets, and there are libraries of presets around, that can give it a very film like look.


There are also many scene modes (presets) on the HMC, and you can make your own (or download from others) and load them from your SDHC card. You can also use scene modes from the HVX/HPX series.

In the end, you are correct Duke. It really matters what you are using the camera for. The A1 has that beautiful HV30-like sharpness combined with all the manual controls. The HMC has the best low light sensitivity of the 1/3" sensor cameras and maintains detail to a remarkably low lux. There are a few wedding type guys mixing footage from the A1 and the HMC and say that they mix together nicely. Ive only done a little mixing of footage from the HMC and the HV30, but so far so good.

Spud, I think you'll be happy with either camera. But again, if the price is significantly lower and you don't need the low light sensitivity as much, I'd go with the A1.

[Duke]

I did forget to mention that the HMC150 is know for it's good low light images. Plus the AVCHD handling will only get better with time. Oh, and the A1 has 20x optical zoom while the HMC150 is 13x. You can cheat DOF smaller with the A1 zoom, but the HMC150 goes wider.

[spudgun]

The A1 is tape-based and its focus assist is not as good compared to Pana, JVC and Sony cameras. Resolution? The A1 uses hi-res sensors, but they are interlaced. The HMC150 uses low-res pixel-shifting sensors but AFAIK they are progressive. The net result is comparable. I would prefer the HMC150.

I am not in a rush, I am just an amateur with lust for gear, I will wait for NAB hoping that Canon will marry HFS100 or HV40 internals with GL-2 like body and with tapeless media.


Thank you, Aramis.
I shoot the HV30 in HDV25 moode as it produces a wonderfull look, much better, I feel, than normal 50 interlaced, (here in PAL land). I am hoping that the Canon's 25F mode is comparable to the HV30's. (Obviously, for Broadcast work I am happy with interlaced).
Best wishes,
Spud

[spudgun]

I'd never try to talk you out of the XH-A1, its a great camera. But I will tell you that after much research, last month I chose the HMC150 due to the tapeless workflow and very good low light sensitivity. Both have been well above my expectations since buying it and I absolutely love the camera. But if you can get an XH-A1 for $1000 (used) less than an HMC, that might just be the clincher (It also doesn't hurt that I am a Canon fan).

Thank you DaFireMedic, for that.
I'm sure the HMC150 is a great camera. I'm a bit 'old school', and to be honest, I've never seen any tapeless image that is comparable to tape quality. I know that these new tapeless cameras are getting better all the time but I can't see them matching the quality of tape.
Best wishes,
Spud

[spudgun]

There is no doubt the HMC150 is a good camera. It depends on what you are most interested in.

The A1, being tape based, requires you to play the tape into the computer. The HV20-40 handle A1 tapes just fine. The HMC150 requires transcoding the file so there is no real time advantage as the HM100u has with it's MOV files.

The A1 has presets, and there are libraries of presets around, that can give it a very film like look.

The A1 sensor is higher definition, but it is interlaced. The A1 does a slight offset of the green channel to increase resolution and is a 3 CCD system that records as 24f. There is approx. 10% decrease in resolution (others have said) in 24f.

The HMC150 records 24p, but as mentioned, it has a low resolution (half a megapixel) sensor that is up rez'd twice. Barry Green, the big panny guru, has called it really a great 720p camera. At that rez it looks great.

The A1 resolution looks best at 60i, no wonder since that's what the sensors are. At that setting it's sharper than the HMC150. (Look at the clips on DVXuser.) At 24f it's still very, very good.

I think my most valid comment is that the A1 takes a big sensor reading and compresses it into a small data stream, and the HMC150 takes a small sensor reading and fills up a large data stream. The net results is very comparable.

That lead me to look at price and the fact that the A1 plays nicely with the HV20, plus the presets allow them to look the same, and that cemented my decision.

Thank you, Duke.
I wanted to know how its 24f, (or 25f here in PAL land) compared to the HV30. I shoot the HV30 on HDV25 mode, (but not with the Cinemode), and love the look. Like I say, I am used to using a Sony Z1, (which is an industry standard camera in TV, here in the UK,), and I know for a fact that the HV30 produces a far superior image.
Best wishes,
Spud

[Duke]

With the A1 turn the auto gain AGC off immediately. Other than that, it can be preset to look very similar to the HV20. In full auto mode the A1 looks similar to Cinemode (flatter and less saturated), but that is for color grading.

Most people can't tell the difference between 24f on the A1 and 24PF on the HV20, but no pull down removal is needed as most NLE's recognise the A1 data stream and automatically treat it as 24p. I've never used 25f though.

The A1 image is far superior to the Z1, FX1, FX7 series of cameras. Plus being 3 CCD it's not prone to the CMOS artifacts the HV20 has with fast motion.

[DaFireMedic]

Thank you DaFireMedic, for that.
I'm sure the HMC150 is a great camera. I'm a bit 'old school', and to be honest, I've never seen any tapeless image that is comparable to tape quality. I know that these new tapeless cameras are getting better all the time but I can't see them matching the quality of tape.
Best wishes,
Spud

Sounds like you are making the right decision, and you will be happy with the camera.

But just to clarify for others that both tape and solid state are merely recording mediums, they do not have anything to do with the video quality. Prior to cameras like the HMC and the Sony EX-1, almost all solid state cameras used low bitrates to squeeze as much video onto a media card as possible. With the prosumer implementations of solid state media, that has changed. The solid state EX-1 will produce better video quality than either the HMC or the XH-A1. But it had better, it costs twice as much.


Spud: Now you just have to get a housing for it.........

[Rumpelgeist]

Thank you DaFireMedic, for that.
I'm sure the HMC150 is a great camera. I'm a bit 'old school', and to be honest, I've never seen any tapeless image that is comparable to tape quality. I know that these new tapeless cameras are getting better all the time but I can't see them matching the quality of tape.
DVCPRO HD (P2 cards) since 2004. XDCAM HD (blue-laser optical disk, MPEG-2 @ 35 Mbit/s) since 2003. XDCAM EX (SxS cards, MPEG-2 @ 35 Mbit/s)? XDCAM HD422 (MPEG-2 @ up to 50 Mbit/s)? HDV with its 25 Mbit/s CBR pales in comparison to the above formats.

[booggerg]

Thank you DaFireMedic, for that.
I'm sure the HMC150 is a great camera. I'm a bit 'old school', and to be honest, I've never seen any tapeless image that is comparable to tape quality. I know that these new tapeless cameras are getting better all the time but I can't see them matching the quality of tape.
Best wishes,
Spud

Sorry Spud.. misguided decision. What did you base your decision on? Did you research enough on the HMC's AVCHD codec to arrive at your conclusion?

[orchidsofwrath]

Sorry Spud.. misguided decision. What did you base your decision on? Did you research enough on the HMC's AVCHD codec to arrive at your conclusion?

yeah really. misguided and misinformed. Tapeless media was born better than tapes. Even the early forms of tapeless media beat the crap out of HDV. Spud you aughta check out any of these new cams that "will never quite match tape".

I should probably also mention that most people agree the hmc150 is superior to the a1 in every way. Mostly because of AVCHD and its avc mpeg4 compression being way less lossy than hdv's mpeg2. imo the fact that the hmc150 is a better cam isn't even debatable. The only acception I can think of is if somebody has a tape fettish. :)

[Duke]

Spud, don't confuse low bit rate uses of the AVCHD codec in consumer cams (8-13 Mbps) with the best bit rate of the HMC150 at 21-24 Mbps. HDV is 25 Mbps, but compresses information less efficiently into the data stream.

The HMC150 is a really good camera and the low rez sensor is offset by the fact that the low rez with bigger receptors gives it better low light sensitivity. It's simply a matter of choices.

AVCHD should not be your determining factor. There are other real factors like how wide and how much tele (28-368mm vs 32.5-650 mm), HDMI out/or not, the A1 has a higher resolution EVF, the 150 a little better focus assist, etc.

Both are fine cameras.

[nukem285]

I'm looking at a used A1 for $2000 that's local, it also comes with a case and extra battery. Should I purchase this or wait for this upgrade that's coming in a couple months. It would definitely be more expensive than this used one so I'm stuck in the middle.

Is it worth it to wait and pay more or should I settle?

[-Rogue5-]

I'd wait... I mean, new cameras are on their way and when they're released it should lower the price of the A1 even further. That said, it's a pretty decent price as is; you can't really lose unless the next entry-level prosumer camera that Canon releases has a 2/3" sensor or something ridiculously good like that, and I don't think they will.

-Rogue5-

[DaFireMedic]

I'd wait... I mean, new cameras are on their way and when they're released it should lower the price of the A1 even further. That said, it's a pretty decent price as is; you can't really lose unless the next entry-level prosumer camera that Canon releases has a 2/3" sensor or something ridiculously good like that, and I don't think they will.

-Rogue5-

Too late, he already bought it.

Enjoy the camera Spudgun, its a nice one.....

[Duke]

I'm looking at a used A1 for $2000 that's local, it also comes with a case and extra battery. Should I purchase this or wait for this upgrade that's coming in a couple months. It would definitely be more expensive than this used one so I'm stuck in the middle.

Is it worth it to wait and pay more or should I settle?

If you're choosing between the A1 and A1s, look at the 'improvements' on the A1s. For me none of the changes affected me so the choice was clear, a used A1 was lots more bang for the buck. I'll shoot with that for a couple years and think about something else when the next generation comes along. (Scarlet? 5DMk2 at 24fps, etc)

[DaFireMedic]

I'm looking at a used A1 for $2000 that's local, it also comes with a case and extra battery. Should I purchase this or wait for this upgrade that's coming in a couple months. It would definitely be more expensive than this used one so I'm stuck in the middle.

Is it worth it to wait and pay more or should I settle?


Lol...I missed your post when I was responding to -Rogue 5-, I thought he was addressing the O.P.

I agree with Duke, for at least $1000 more you will not be getting significantly more camera from what I've read on the A1s. Are you in a position financially to spend the extra money? For that much you could get a nice tripod, a shotgun mic, etc.

Just don't look look at the A1 as "settling". You may not enjoy the camera as much if you always have the feeling that you "settled" for it. Make sure you are getting the one that you want.

[-Rogue5-]

It's insane how good the entire XL/XH line is, my only reservation is that HDSLRs are incoming... alas, I doubt they'll actually be usable in the capacity we'd like until 2010. Even then, because of their form-factor, they'll never have the useability of a prosumer camera (of which, I personally think the XH-A1 is the best, especially when you consider the price.)

I guess my question was, whether or not you can wait a year.

That said, a used XH-A1 + proDOFadapter for ~$3000 would be mighty hard to pass up.

-Rogue5-