Point and shoot cameras: what is your opinion?

[weasel-d]

I was wondering what some of your opinions are of the video options on "point and shoot" cameras. I know many of you are very tech savvy and I am not so I would like to hear what you think. The reason I ask is because I just got a little Olympus waterproof camera and I have had more fun shooting video with that lately than my HV30. It seems that a lot of these cameras have decent frame rates and resolution. They also come with cool features that cameras priced ten times higher don't have. I was messing with my girlfriends Nikon coolpix and it has a "timelapse" video mode built in where you can choose different intervals and the image quality is actually great. I have also heard that some of them have features with really high frame rates where you can do some good slow motion stuff. Plus these cameras are relatively cheap and you can put them in your pocket. Thanks!

[SenorKaffee]

I always get the feeling that they are not made for video, it's just a nice extra feature. They use weird codecs, the compression is pretty high, the frame rate is too low, exposure and focus are hard to control. Of course it is very possible to shoot a movie with them, especially if you want to put it on YouTube.

The question is, why do you feel the HV is no fun anymore? Tape workflow too complicated?

You are right that timelapses are best done with a photo camera, I'd never use my HV for that unless I had no other choice.

[weasel-d]

The question is, why do you feel the HV is no fun anymore? Tape workflow too complicated?

I never said that. I just said that a little camera that is cheap and that fits in your pocket can be really fun. Obviously the quality does not compare to the HV. I was just commenting that they had some cool features and was looking for some input as to what some of them can do and what people have created with them.

[JCM_GDL]

There are some canon advanced point and shot cameras, but not really portables, but with very nice video capabilities and quality, like the S5, the SX10 and the SX1, the last with full 1920x1080 resolution and 20x of zoom, all of them with operative zoom and a nice manual exposure and focus controls during video shooting.

[Shadow_7]

I like the cheaper HD type camcorders. They're cheap enough that you're not too worried if they get stolen or broken. If a dear friend experiencing tough times absolutely loves it, you can give it to them and turn their world upside down. And run out and get another, or the next best model without giving up 6 months worth of beer.

I'm looking at the Sanyo Xacti WH1 myself. 30x zoom, 3+ hours battery life (stock battery(s)). Only 720p30 and probably too much compression. But best of all, WATERPROOF. So I don't have to worry about ruining it, if I'm out in the woods and don't have a rain cape or ziplock bag. I even get my choice of two colors, and as far as useless features go, that one is pretty cool. Not exactly cheap, but no need to spend $200+ on a rain cape. Or other extras just to have fun with it. And that alone pretty much pays for that camera.

[dpFilms]

My opinion... It depends on what you want to accomplish. I started making videos in September 2008. At that time, I picked up a Canon SS1100IS that has a 640x480 video mode. I shot a bunch of video to, from and during a trip from NY to LA for my nephew's first birthday. Got home and put together a 10 minute film for my family. I was hooked. I went on to make a parody music video with the same sub-$200 camera:

Laundry Day on Vimeo

Since that time, I've purchased an HF100, an audio kit, lights, a chroma-key screen, Cineform software, etc., etc. (I think I might have a problem.)

For the type of work I do--which is primarily humor-based--the camera spec's are secondary to the content (i.e. writing, performance, etc.). That's not to say I don't care about the video quality. If I didn't, I would never have spent the money I did go kick it up a notch. But that decision wasn't a requirement for my purposes.

That's a fairly long-winded way of saying "it depends". It depends on things such as:

- your budget
- the convenience factor
- the type of talent or skill you're trying to showcase (eg. a cinematographer has different goals than an actor has different goals than a comedian)
- the intended audience (eg. you might experience more trouble getting a 640x480 film into a festival but the same video might be viewed 10 million times on YouTube)

I think both types of cameras have their place. I'll likely use both going forward depending on the project and what I want to acheive from it.

[booggerg]

The Panasonic LX3 shoots the best HD video in a P&S camera.. BAR NONE

[Shadow_7]

The Panasonic LX3 shoots the best HD video in a P&S camera.. BAR NONE

Maybe I've been out of the loop too long, but when was 848x480 @ 30fps HD? Factor in $499 MSRP, 2.5x zoom, worse battery life than my Kodak Z1085. Which isn't that great to start with. And it's not that good of a camera. It probably takes some good quality images (every pixel counts) with a large sensor and low megapixel count. But with a new HV30 probably running $450 in a couple of months, when the HV40 hits the market. Is it really that good of a value?

[iThinkergoiMac]

I've got a Canon S2 IS (a bit old, I know) and it does quite respectable video... 640x480p30. Of course, it's encoded into an AVI file and it's definitely not anywhere close to the video quality of my HV20 that I got last week ($430... refurb), but it has a button to record movies whenever you want, so it's handy when I want to shoot a quick movie, but don't have the HV20 with me. And with CHDK to adjust the codec settings on the movie, I should be able to get quite a bit of time out of a 1 GB card.

It got easily overexposed the last time I used it, but I was impressed with the amount of detail it had, and of course, no tape mechanism to pick up in the background.

[Eugenia Loli-Queru]

I have a bunch of Kodak HD cameras. At least 4-5 of them. They are ok, but their color implementation is weird, impossible to color grade correctly. Their worst problem is that they have no exposure control: not only most scenes outdoors are always overexposed, but exposure jumps like a gazelle all the time. If at least they could add some exposure compensation control & locking, then we are looking at them being as great P&S cameras. Despite this though, they are better than the Flip cameras, and much cheaper than the Panasonic ones. As they also couple as pretty good digicams, they are pretty good overall.

[Rumpelgeist]

I always get the feeling that they are not made for video, it's just a nice extra feature. They use weird codecs, the compression is pretty high, the frame rate is too low, exposure and focus are hard to control.
AVCHD Lite


The question is, why do you feel the HV is no fun anymore? Tape workflow too complicated?
He-he.

[Paulo Teixeira]

The LX3 shoots 1280x720p videos just like many other still cameras including Panasonic’s TZ5, FZ28, Sony’s T500, etc. The one to look out for is Panasonic’s newest cameras such as the TZ7 for Europe and the ZS3 for the U.S. The highest video mode is 1280x720 60p at 17MBPS (H.264) in a compact body. Too bad it wont be out until April.

http://www2.panasonic.com/consumer-electronics/shop/Cameras-Camcorders/Digital-Cameras/Lumix-Digital-Cameras/model.DMC-ZS3S_11002_7000000000000005702

[Shadow_7]

The LX3 shoots 1280x720p videos just like many other still cameras including Panasonic’s TZ5, FZ28, Sony’s T500, etc. The one to look out for is Panasonic’s newest cameras such as the TZ7 for Europe and the ZS3 for the U.S. The highest video mode is 1280x720 60p at 17MBPS (H.264) in a compact body. Too bad it wont be out until April.

http://www2.panasonic.com/consumer-electronics/shop/Cameras-Camcorders/Digital-Cameras/Lumix-Digital-Cameras/model.DMC-ZS3S_11002_7000000000000005702

I'm not seeing it in the technical specs. And why would they NOT list it THERE?

-----
Motion Image (4:3 Aspect Ratio)
VGA: 640 x 480 pixels, 30fps (Motion JPEG)
QVGA: 320 x 240 pixels, 30 fps (Motion JPEG)
Motion Image (16:9 Aspect Ratio)
WVGA: 848 x 480 pixels, 30 fps (Motion JPEG)
-----

It would be nice if it did 720p60. Especially since it looks like Samsung messed up the new H10# series. 1/4.5" sensor. The HMX20C was nice, but the glass was too small for it's huge sensor. Maybe I should just find a local rental house. Might be better than waiting for the next gen of deficient camcorders. So far the Sanyo Xacti WH1 appears to be my "best" or "only" option. Not that I hold much hope for it's image quality, but for it's features and price point, a no brainer IMO. x30 zoom, 3+ hour battery, waterproof, 720p, .....

[Eugenia Loli-Queru]

>The highest video mode is 1280x720 60p at 17MBPS

This means that it would have been at around 8 mbps for 30p, which is pretty low, honestly.

Here is my breakdown, in my opinion the best digicam/video combo cams, depending on how much you want to spend:

5. Kodak Zi6 or Flip. I hate these digirecorders. Although the Zi6 can be purchased for $130 now, refurbished. It does h.264 recording at around 8 mbps I think. Pretty saturated image, no controls whatsoever, a bitch to edit on a PC. And of course, these digirecorders don't double as good digicams, so their value is less than a good combo digicam/video device.

4. Kodak V1233, V1253, Z1285, etc: $120 to $150 refurbished
Cheap, but with good-enough quality for their price. No exposure compensation support, so there are exposure jumps constantly, ruining most footage. Also, it tends to over-expose outdoors all the time. Only macro/tele settings regarding focusing. No white balance or anything else. 720/30p in MPEG4-SP 10-12 mbps. It's a bitch to edit this format on PCs without proxy files. Apple's editors are fine, because they re-encode it anyway during import to AIC or ProRES.

3. Now, there are many Panasonic cameras in this place, but, they do 720/30p instead of 24p (I personally would go for 24p), and, they all use a 1/2.33 sensor, which provides less shallow depth of field, and worse low light support than the FX150 or LX3. These other Panasonic cameras usually cost $200 to $450. They have the same controls and characteristics of the cameras below:

2. Panasonic FX150: $300
1/1.72 sensor, 720/24p. Exposure compensation control, macro/tele focusing, white balance support. No other control. 25mbps MJPEG in .mov format: burns storage very fast, but it's fast to edit on either Mac/PC/Linux, and it's good quality.

1. Panasonic LX3: $500
1/1.63 sensor, 720/24p. Exposure compensation control, macro/tele focusing, white balance support. Better low-light performance than the FX150 above. No other control. 25mbps MJPEG in .mov format: burns storage very fast, but it's fast to edit on either Mac/PC/Linux, and it's good quality.

(no competition entry) 0. Canon SX1. Pretty good, but only available in Europe, and with a small sensor. Pretty low bitrate at 17 mbps for full 1080p (compared to the 5D-MII's 38 mbps for the same resolution). Only exposure compensation support, and very little focusing support. Impossible to edit on a PC comfortably without proxy files. Records in 1080/30p, with a MOV h.264 codec.

So, basically, you get what you pay for. I believe that the best deal is the Panasonic FX150 if you consider price vs quality vs control. This is the camera I would go for, if I didn't own 2 HD Kodak toy cameras already (I had more, I gave some away or sold).

[booggerg]

Shadow 7: read up buddy.. read up.. your'e out of the loop.

[Shadow_7]

Shadow 7: read up buddy.. read up.. your'e out of the loop.

Well I can read how everyone who bought a goose at Fedco got one that lays a golden egg. But if I buy a goose and it doesn't lay a golden egg. And it's not listed in the manufacturers specs that it does lay a golden egg, then I can't (in all probability) return it for a complete refund because it doesn't meet manufacturer specs. Granted that I didn't read very hard on that one.

My Kodak Z1085 is okay. $130 new-ish (craigslist). The video is grainy, but not to terribly hard to edit with ffmpeg. But in low light even shady conditions (sun went behind a mountain, but still two hours till sunset) it goes into a constant state of trying to focus. And it seems to use it's zoom to help obtain focus. Or if there's a helicopter and some power lines between it and you, it has trouble figuring out which to focus on. Although if the sun is to your back and your shadow is not in the way, it does really good. With optical image stabilization and optical zoom it blows my cybershot out of the water. And 720p30 is mildly more useful than 480p25 for me. Although 45 minutes per set of batteries kinds of sucks. But then again only 2x AAs. Albeit expensive (relatively) Energizer Ultimate Lithiums(that set off walmarts security device when exiting the store).

As far as the Flip mino HD or Vado HD or Kodak Zi6. It's more of a size to weight thing. I'd like to setup a hat cam type rig for a performers perspective capture. Just a little coat hanger L plus money clip or other mount to rig it to the bill of someones hat. And it's a lot easier to talk people into using it. Than say a Red One ace bandaged to someones skull. And should it get damaged in the process. No big loss.

[fishops]

Well I can read how everyone who bought a goose at Fedco got one that lays a golden egg. But if I buy a goose and it doesn't lay a golden egg. And it's not listed in the manufacturers specs that it does lay a golden egg, then I can't (in all probability) return it for a complete refund because it doesn't meet manufacturer specs. Granted that I didn't read very hard on that one.

Or in your case, you could argue and cry on poultry forums for months on end despite the fact that you're not a farmer, don't own a goose or even a chicken, and would rather argue about feather size and beak formation than sell eggs.

[Eugenia Loli-Queru]

Well said fishops.

> into a constant state of trying to focus.

I never leave autofocus ON with these Kodak cameras. You always focus first manually (if you manage it), and then you press record, and then you cut away the parts that have unwanted movement from the presses.

[User]

Well said fishops.
>.

OMG!
Is this love in the air on HV20.com FFs?

[Shadow_7]

Or in your case, you could argue and cry on poultry forums for months on end despite the fact that you're not a farmer, don't own a goose or even a chicken, and would rather argue about feather size and beak formation than sell eggs.

Well if you live on a planet with a methane atmosphere and are trying to sell your poultry for nitrous + oxygen human consumption, perhaps I should cry fowl. Recalling life in georgia, where the ISD bought a batch of BAD strawberries. And instead of just getting rid of / not using them, they opted instead to immunize the children against the diseases they might get from eating said berries. And served them as is.

[fishops]

oh my god reid welch is back

[Eugenia Loli-Queru]

>Well if you live on a planet with a methane atmosphere and
>are trying to sell your poultry for nitrous + oxygen human consumption

So, Shadow_7, are you claiming that you are living underwater? Because you are going on and on about waterproofing lately.

[booggerg]

shadow: Instead of that freakin' manifesto that you wrote, all you had to do was to do a simple vimeo search http://vimeo.com/videos/search:LX3 or a google search.. http://www.google.com/search?q=LX3+720P+video&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a

[Shadow_7]

>Well if you live on a planet with a methane atmosphere and
>are trying to sell your poultry for nitrous + oxygen human consumption

So, Shadow_7, are you claiming that you are living underwater? Because you are going on and on about waterproofing lately.

If your camcorder ISN'T waterproof, aren't YOU setting YOURSELF up for FAILURE?

[Eugenia Loli-Queru]

No. I don't put my cameras under water or on rain. And I don't eat and drink next to them.

[Shadow_7]

Well what I'm intending to capture is outdoor events. And outdoors (where these cams seem to perform best) the conditions of the shoot are determined by something other than myself. If I can avoid buying a rain cape ($200+) or underwater enclosure, by just buying a camcorder that is relatively immune to those conditions, for cheaper than the competition plus rain cape. Why not? Or I could just continue to watch episodes of surviverman where when he gripes about only 1 of his six camcorders still working because of the weather. Or not being able to shoot anything for two days because of the rain. Why deal with that, IF it can be avoided?

In the meantime the Sanyo Xacti VPC-WH1BL looks promising. Not that I hold much hope for it's image quality. But if it's reasonable, why not? At a minimum, it's projected zoom plus battery life seems to fair well against the competition. At least in terms of what I wont have to buy to use it how I intend to use it.

[fishops]

hey how about this, shadow 7

the next post out of you should be about your wonderful new camera and all the awesome stuff you're shooting with it

nobody wants to read anything else out of you. zip it until you want to play with the rest of us instead of making snyde remarks from the sidelines.

[Shadow_7]

Like my Kodak Z1085-IS that I bought several weeks ago(If not a month or more)? A capable camera for what it does at it's price point, within limits.

The other options not really being available until April. Is the HF S series out yet? Any joe the plumber footage from it to see how it fairs in incapable hands? Is it better than a $200 1080p Aiptek? Of course it is image wise. But how about all of the other options? Battery life, zoom size, storage capacity, continuous session length, does it shut off if the mercury passes 100F, and other concerns that would make it unusable for me.

[Rumpelgeist]

New York 2008 on Vimeo

[Eugenia Loli-Queru]

Many new Canon cameras announced tonight. A bunch of them do HD. However, they all use the same 1/2.3" CCD sensor, and just 8 mbps for the 720/30p h.264 recording (which is difficult to edit on a PC).

I have to say that the Panasonic FX150 probably still remains the best overall.

EDIT: Hmm, DPreview & the press release for the most interesting camera of the bunch claims 30 mins per 4 GBs , while their spec page (http://www.usa.canon.com/consumer/controller?act=ModelInfoAct&fcategoryid=144&modelid=18329#ModelTechSpecsAct) claims pretty much 25 mbps. Dunno what to believe anymore.

[JCM_GDL]

Many new Canon cameras announced tonight. A bunch of them do HD. However, they all use the same 1/2.3" CCD sensor, and just 8 mbps for the 720/30p h.264 recording (which is difficult to edit on a PC).

I have to say that the Panasonic FX150 probably still remains the best overall.

EDIT: Hmm, DPreview & the press release for the most interesting camera of the bunch claims 30 mins per 4 GBs , while their spec page (http://www.usa.canon.com/consumer/controller?act=ModelInfoAct&fcategoryid=144&modelid=18329#ModelTechSpecsAct) claims pretty much 25 mbps. Dunno what to believe anymore.

If the SX200IS is like the SX100IS I have, then the zoom is no operable since shooting movies. The SX10IS and the new in USA SX1IS are capable of smoth zoom during movies

[DougO]

Olympus compact cameras are highly underrated and great value for the money. They have always had really good compacts from way back in the film days of the previous millennium.

They're all pretty cheap now, though. Even though I'm a Nikon DSLR guy, I'd go with a Canon, Sony or Olympus. It's pretty hard to go wrong if you stick with one of those.

[Eugenia Loli-Queru]

>If the SX200IS is like the SX100IS I have, then the zoom is no operable since shooting movies.

That's not a problem at all. Very, very, very few shots of actual artistic or movie pieces use zoom the way consumers do. I only used to zoom in and out of stuff when I first shot videos, as I was thinking it would be nice. It is in fact a very cheesy effect. Almost none of my current stuff have live zooming. So not being able to use the zoom while shooting, is not a big deal at all for me. Having shutter speed, exposure and manual focus control is much more important.

[Dr. Benway]

P&S(ish) http://www.letsgodigital.org/en/20036/canon-powershot-sx1-is/

[Split Field Diopter]

>If the SX200IS is like the SX100IS I have, then the zoom is no operable since shooting movies.

That's not a problem at all. Very, very, very few shots of actual artistic or movie pieces use zoom the way consumers do. I only used to zoom in and out of stuff when I first shot videos, as I was thinking it would be nice. It is in fact a very cheesy effect. Almost none of my current stuff have live zooming. So not being able to use the zoom while shooting, is not a big deal at all for me. Having shutter speed, exposure and manual focus control is much more important.

Yeah. Kubrick. Depalma. Bava. These guys have no artistic intergrity.

I hate when people say zooming isn't good to do. When used properly, like in BARRY LYNDON, it has a wonderfully beautiful effect.

[Eugenia Loli-Queru]

I didn't say that zooming is never used. But it doesn't constitute more than 1% of the overall shots on a movie project. It is used on nature documentaries and what not, but not that much on Hollywood movies. Personally, I don't use it at all anymore. And those who do, for a $300 camera, which is so thin in video features, I would much prefer shutter speed, exposure compensation and focus control than zooming ability. In fact, for me, the zooming-while-recording feature is even lower than zebra support.

[Rich]

I was wondering what some of your opinions are of the video options on "point and shoot" cameras. I have caught some interesting family moments with digital cameras which also produce video.

I can remember when the 'experts' said zoom lens were no good and internal exposure meters would not allow proper exposure. Oops, is my age showing?

Got caught with my pants down one day, ran into a neat parade and all I had was my Canon Powershot SX10. Shame on me for not always carrying 40+ years of photo gear everywhere I go. 'Fifth Annual Christmas de Caballos - Toys For Tots Parade' (Perhaps a shamless plug for the USMC): Corrales Parade 3Mbps.wmv on Vimeo



Rich

[dWyZaK]

Laundry Day on Vimeo (http://www.vimeo.com/2392004)

.

OMG WIN LOL :hv20-smilie79::hv20-smilie77:

[Eugenia Loli-Queru]

Bad news about the Panasonic cameras. I just received the FX150, and while it has exposure compensation, it doesn't have exposure locking, so it keeps jumping around, trashing the footage.

If this new SX200 IS Canon digicam has exposure compensation/locking, I guess it makes it a better purchase. They shoot at 26 mbps btw.

[bjolly]

Why would they put in exposure compensation without the ability to lock? Seems pointless to me...

[jordanService]

regardless of the exposure lock a 14 mega pixel camera with all of those bells and whistles starts to look really really good at 200 bucks. Any other updates, because I am looking for a camera for my sisters, she wants a still camera that can do 720p footage and that is editable. From this point of view, the fx150 looks good, just (if narrative) control the lighting.

Any thoughts or other recommendations?

BTW eugenia, are those kodaks good, what model number are they?

on another note I am looking for sub 200$

[Eugenia Loli-Queru]

Jordan, here's my review of the FX150:
http://www.osnews.com/story/21317/Taking_the_Panasonic_DMC-FX150_for_a_Spin

The Kodaks have absolutely no exposure control (compensation or locking). The FX150 has compensation, but not locking (but it records in an easier to edit format for PC editors -- Macs will do fine with both). Geeks.com sells refurbished Kodaks with 720p video support from $120 upwards. The FX150 is at $220 or so.

[jordanService]

Any one camera that stands out from the rest?

I have been looking up and down and the canons seem nice. However, they really confuse the crap out of me with how many cameras they release! Most of the new digital elphs seem to offer 720p shooting. Any word on if they are pc editing friendly?

[Eugenia Loli-Queru]

Just get the Panasonic FX150 if you want friendly PC editing. Alternatively, get the Panasonic Lumix DMC-ZS3 if you prefer 30 fps recording instead of the FX150's 24 fps. Don't look elsewhere.

[Maxwell]

Yeah point and shoot cameras. I'm gonna be blunt: I think there stupid. I call them Fun Time cameras. Its like the camera the girl has who is taking pictures of everybody at party or when your out. They have that blinding flash (which makes you think your in heaven if you keep your eyes open). I dont want any of that Fun Time Camera BS. I want superb a superb camera that produces superb images. And from what I have seen these little toys (yeah I called it a toy) produce not so great images. LOL, "Hey dad wheres the Nikon?" No funtime here!

[Eugenia Loli-Queru]

Ladies and gentlemen, this Sunday lunch (in 1 hour from now my time), I will be evangelizing to my husband the idea that I need a gift today: the Canon SX200 IS. I just confirmed on the DPReview forums that its video mode has exposure compensation, exposure locking, and focus locking (among other things, like manual white balance, and manually setting contrast/saturation/colors to give it a more pleasant film-like look that it's color grading-friendly). Some shutter speed support would have been nice (http://eugenia.gnomefiles.org/2009/05/23/what-i-look-for-in-a-camera/) too, but hey.

The only downside of the video mode on the new Canon cameras is that it's really slow to edit on Vegas (720/30p at 24 mbps, Level 4.1, h.264 in the MOV container). Thankfully, I have Cineform around to transcode the files in an easy to edit format without quality loss.

Will let you know what he says. ;-)

UPDATE: He said yes! We are going to Costco later today to get one (if they carry the model).

UPDATE 2: Got it! Review within the hour!

[Eugenia Loli-Queru]

Review is up, comparing the HV20, Panasonic FX150, Kodak v1253, and my new Canon SX200 IS: http://is.gd/122wI
Don't miss this test! :)

[tvnewsbadge]

I was wondering what some of your opinions are of the video options on "point and shoot" cameras. !

A dedicated camera is best, but that said, I always carry a canon G9 on my hip 24/7 and have used the video function in my job in broadcast news in occasional emergency situations where a real camera was not available.

These little units are nothing to sneeze at, that's for sure.

[zephyrnoid]

I spent 3 weeks with my family in Yurp recently. biting my lip I soldiered over there with only a Flip Video Mino HD. Is that a point and shoot? So I shot every day, every event, every where, all available light inside and out and I even held perfectly still for 2 second clips to anticipate 'still' grabs for some shots. I got home and discovered I had shot 145 clips and barely made a dent in the capacity. I just finished the editing and burning to DVD. The quality is fabulous for what it is, MP4 compressed HD. I never used my tripod once . Zooming is psuedo- just me moving closer very slowly. Pans are pans and whip pans too. I hope extolling of the virtues of this point and shoot vid cam isn't in the wrong thread. I just want to say that leaving my Coolpix 5000 at home was smart. I haven't had so much fun in years.

[tvnewsbadge]

I hate when people say zooming isn't good to do. When used properly, like in BARRY LYNDON, it has a wonderfully beautiful effect.

Never saw BL, but in most quality films, they use "tracking" shots where they physically move the camera, not "zooms" which look cheap.
That said, however, the "zoom" was used to great effect in films like the "Graduate", use of which really defines the era.

It should be noted that the orginial purpose of the "zoom' was to give multiple focal lengths in one lens, but that was soon corrupted by some cameramen working on "B" grade movies and skin flicks who moonlighted as trombone players at night and let their avocation carry over into their day jobs while under the influence of foreign substances.

That's why you often hear excessive zooming refered to as "sliphorning" or "sackbutting" among Hollywood insiders and members of the NPPA.

[Chicken Warrior]

Never saw BL, but in most quality films, they use "tracking" shots where they physically move the camera, not "zooms" which look cheap.
That said, however, the "zoom" was used to great effect in films like the "Graduate", use of which really defines the era.

BL was in fact zooming (some tracking, but also some zooming). I think that zooming, like wide DOF (another rare feature common in Kubrick's BL), are given an awfully short shrift in terms of artistic potential. These and other qualities are considered 'cheap' because they're associated with cheap TV soaps and sitcoms, not because they don't carry their own emotional punch under the right circumstances. Think how wide DOF was considered not just artistic, but downright revolutionary when it was used in Citizen Kane. Today, setting the aperture to its widest possible setting and taping over the zoom stick is second nature to many DPs. It's sad.

On another note, watch Psycho and take note of how many shots take advantage of zoom and physical movement simultaneously.

Don't bash the zoom!

[Maxwell]

Okay guys I feel like a total idiot but just forget what I said that the "little digital cameras" suck. I was wondering If I should get one of those or a Mini SD Card for my HV30? Does the HV30 take good pictures?

[Eugenia Loli-Queru]

Yes, it does: http://eugenia.gnomefiles.org/2009/04/05/still-pictures-with-the-hv2030/

[Maxwell]

WOW. Those were so nice pictures. I am defiantly going to buy a Mini SD Card!

[booggerg]

Yes, it does: http://eugenia.gnomefiles.org/2009/04/05/still-pictures-with-the-hv2030/

errr... the HV20/30/40 can produce good shots for web display, but only at reduced sizes. View it at 100% and the details suck. They also suck for printing.

Most digicams will be much much better than these camcorders when it comes to stills.

[Maxwell]

Oh great now I have to do more research. On which camera to buy and blah blah blah.

[Chicken Warrior]

True, the pictures aren't up to the standards of modern still digicams, but you're not going to get a better combination of still/video quality IMHO. Good luck in your search!

[Maxwell]

Maybe I should make this a thread but whatever. I have been debating whether or not I should buy a Mini SD Card for my HV30 or buy the Nikon D40? I don't want to get side tracked with taking still pictures and not filming my projects with my HV30. However I do want nice quality pictures taken with a DSLR camera. It seems like the D40 would be perfect for me but I am still not sure if I should buy that or not. Because from the reviews I heard its a good beginner camera. Do you guys think you could help me out?

[Janke]

By all means, buy a 2 GB SD card! The ones I use (Transcend or Kingston) are micro-SD, but come with an adapter for mini-SD, which is what the HD cameras use.

These cards cost less than $ 10, so it's nice to have one in the camera, all the time. Besides, you can capture still frames from your tapes onto the card by simply pressing the photo button!

NOTE: There's no idea in buying expensive, fast SDHC cards for the HV cameras - they may not even work...

[Maxwell]

Okay thanks Janke! I guess I will be making a trip to Sammy's today. But how do the pictures come out? While using the card?

[Janke]

But how do the pictures come out? While using the card?

Set the highest quality and size (2048 by 1536 pixels) and you'll get 3 megapixel stills. They are pretty good, actually, compared with most point&shoots, but you will of course get slightly better quality with a DSLR - but that will cost a bundle more than a 2 GB card! (Which, by the way, will hold well over 1000 stills...)

Here's an example full-size shot with my HV30:
http://www.saunalahti.fi/animato/temp/IMG_6509.JPG

[Maxwell]

Okay Janke I bought my 4GB MicroSDHC Card its a SanDisk. And the adapter for it. So everything should work right? Damn, I can take up to 13,600 images haha. Thats like a life time of images.

[Janke]

- so you bought a ** 4GB SDHC ** card?

As I said above, buy a 2 GB card, and not a SDHC one - as stated in the Canon HV manual, cards over 2 GB may not work in the camera...

Please let us know if yours does.

BTW, the manual also says never to put more than 1,800 pictures on a card...

Have you read your manual at all?

[Maxwell]

OMG. Yeah I bought the 4GB SDHC. I have read some parts of the manual but nothing on the Mini SD cards.

[Janke]

If the US ane European manuals are alike, it's in there somewhere.
Check the still photo section.

[Maxwell]

YEAH, I got screwed it doesnt work!!! Sorry it took me a while to reply, ive been in Tahoe and still am.

[Dr. Benway]

Hi everybody, how are tricks? A friend of mine wants recommendations on this thing; P&S with video. Yes there many but do you know of any with very good sound, or even better, a mic jack? Thanks a lot.