Can I shoot in 24p to edit without complications?

[JayK]

Hi,

I'm getting Hv20 to shoot only home videos.
Main workflow is iMovie to DVD or occasionally to blu-ray DVD for Ps3 viewing.

I want to shoot in 24p but after reading this forum I have concerns that I will have to do complicated pulldown procedures in order to edit my video further.

My question:
Can I shoot in 24p, capture in iMovie, then do a simple editing without conversions/pulldown to output to DVD ? Or I have to shoot in 60i to avoid complications/conversion?

Thanks.

[desperado]

the 24p is technically 29.97 footage, same as regular video. you only need to pull down if you want to edit true 24p, removing the extra interlaced frames.

you should be fine to import it into iMovie, but it will still need to convert/import the footage to AIC (Apple Intermediary Codec) so you can edit it.

[Ian-T]

If you are mainly going to DVD then you shouldn't have to concern yourself with removing pulldown.

[24Peter]

If you are mainly going to DVD then you shouldn't have to concern yourself with removing pulldown.

So far that's been my experience...

[mybethesdasea]

FCP will pulldown for you automatically if you select the neccessary option. No muss, no fuss.

[yksratnak]

Need help, new to HD editing (premiere pro)
what setting I have to adjust to " export to movie " in HD.
My new project is set HD, capture is ok - HD export to tape
back to camcorder is ok. But when exporting to movie to make a master edit
It converts to 720 - 480. What am I doing wrong? pleas

[SmirkySmirker]

Can someone please shed some light about this problem in words I can understand? IS there a setting on the HV20 that will let you capture and edit no problem? Cause if there is I'd like to know.. I heard 24p was bad and 25p was good?

[Lunchbox]

Need help, new to HD editing (premiere pro)
what setting I have to adjust to " export to movie " in HD.
My new project is set HD, capture is ok - HD export to tape
back to camcorder is ok. But when exporting to movie to make a master edit
It converts to 720 - 480. What am I doing wrong? pleas

In Premiere, if you choose File, Export Movie, that will give you output to AVI files. You will need to choose "File, Export, Adobe Media Encoder" to select MPEG2 output. There are presets for HDV m2t output.

[Lunchbox]

Can someone please shed some light about this problem in words I can understand? IS there a setting on the HV20 that will let you capture and edit no problem? Cause if there is I'd like to know.. I heard 24p was bad and 25p was good?

24p or 25p is not an option for you to select. It depends on the country you located where your camcorder is manufactured. In the US, you can get an HV20 with 60i/24P only.

If you choose to shoot video in 24p, you indeed getting a 30fps videos. You can just edit your video in a 30fps timeline without removing pulldown.

[SmirkySmirker]

I don't understand, are you saying you can edit without doing all that pulldown crap in FCP 5?

[Lunchbox]

I never use FCP. But it's the same for all NLEs. You just treat the 24p footage captured from HV20 as is. It is just a 30fps stream of video. In your NLE, specify your time line as 60i/30fps will do.

You DO NOT have to remove pulldowns from the 24p vidoe.

[vrbhu]

Taky,
I have a question about this.
Does it mean that when I am done with editing the 30 fps project (which was actually a 24P) and I output the project to a DVD, it will play smoothly.
I mean will we see the elegance of 24P preserved without doing any kind of pull down removal at all..

Thanks
Vivek

[Lunchbox]

vrbhu,

Yes, that's the case. You can completely ignore the pulldown process. You still can make a nice progressive video.

You can take a look at this thread. I captured video in 24p mode. Without removing pulldown and edit the video straight in 30fps timeline.

http://www.hv20.com/showthread.php?t=361

[SalaTar]

its realy 29.97PsF preset
the steam is ready to play on a ntsc TV at 24p as is via US camera

[SmirkySmirker]

So what about all the problems people have been having? Why would you want to go through so much trouble to remove pulldown and that stuff? If you can just capture it and edit it no problem then what's the point?

[24Peter]

In my experience, "ghosting" (an artifact of not removing pulldown) is more evident on computer files - e.g., .wmv, .mov - than SD DVD's. So if you are preparing your video for viewing on a computer/on-line, you may want to consider removing pulldown.

[Lunchbox]

So what about all the problems people have been having? Why would you want to go through so much trouble to remove pulldown and that stuff? If you can just capture it and edit it no problem then what's the point?

There're some good benefits of removing pulldown to obtain a real 24fps video, such as, better web streaming quality and ture cinematic film look.

There are also people complaining about Canon not inserting the flag to remove the pulldown frames, claiming that's a disadvantage so to tell people not to buy HV20. It's their thought and you can't do a thing.

[vrbhu]

Now again I am a bit confused. Earlier reading taky's reply I thought that I would not remove pull down but again reading these posts it seems that removal is must.
When you say that you need to remove pull down to get the pure cinematic film look. Does it mean that if I output it to DVD it will not give me a film look if I do not remove pulldown and just output the 60i edited (24P filmed) footage.

Also can I conculde this:
-if ur output is web : MUST do a pull down removal
-if your output is DVD : do not remove any pull down. It will play good.
Also do I need to de interlace the final output in this second case.

Thanks

[Lunchbox]

PULLDOWN REMOVAL IS NOT A MUST.

You don't need to remove them. Just keep them as in the 60i stream. You will get nice web streaming video, HD video, or SD video. It will still have the cinematic film look.

Maybe what you should do is, shoot something in 24p mode, then edit the video in 60i/30fps timeline. Output to web and output to DVD to see it yourself. If everything looks good, why bother removing the pulldown?

Have you checked out the other thread I posted with the link to see a wedding photo shooting video I did.

[Frank]

As far as I can see, there are at least two reasons someone might want to remove pulldown:

1. To create a 24 fps progressive DVD or computer file to play at 24 fps on a progressive monitor or TV set, for the smoothest "film look" (no pulldown juddering).

2. To transfer a 24 fps master to film.

Personally, while neither of these scenarios is in my immediate future, I plan to try pulldown removal for important projects in order to keep my options open.

[vrbhu]

Yeah Taky, I have checked the threads right when you posted it as your reply to my message. they look awesome. your video was really great!

Ok I got you, so I can do whatever I like with the 24P clip (DVD, HD, Web) without removing the pull down. right.

Then as SmirkySmirker asked why do we all bother to do this removal. and as 24Peter replied that because some ghosting is evident in computer files so we should remove this first. So my two cents : for computer/web : do removal,
otherwise don't do it...and thats what Frank stated it above.

thanks for this clarification.

one last question:
is there any difference in the quality between these two work flows?
1. shoot 24P -> edit in 60i -> output to DVD at 30 fps
2. shoot 24P -> remove pulldown -> edit in 24fps timline -> output to DVD at 30 fps

Thanks
Vivek

[Lunchbox]

If you will not remove the pulldown, the ghosting can be found in those pulldown frames no matter it is TV, Web or computer output. It can be only noticeable when you freeze the video frame by frame then you might see them.

From the video link I posted, it's a HV20 video shot in 24p then output to WMV for web/computer. If you can see a lot of ghosting problem, then do the pulldown removal. Otherwise, why bother.

Your second workflow is wrong. If you shoot in 24p, have the pulldown removed, you should edit in a 24p timeline and output to a DVD with 24fps output.

Again, the best way to find out if there're any difference in the two workflow, shoot some video and try it yourself to see if there're noticable difference.

[vrbhu]

Thanks, I appreciate your suggestion.

[bmaltais]

The benefit of doing the pulldown is that you only need to encode 24 frames vs 30. So bits that would have been used for the wasted 6 frames can be better utilized to either fit more content on the DVD or get a better output quality.

You should keep this in mind when making a DVD.

[Lunchbox]

The benefit of doing the pulldown is that you only need to encode 24 grames vs 30. So bits that would have been used for the wasted 30 frames can be better utilized to either fit more content on the DVD or get a better output quality.


I'm a bit skeptical about the claim "fitting more content on the DVD". It's true if you remove pulldown from a mt2, you have less frames yeilding a smaller file size (theoratically).

When encoding to DVD, the NTSC MPEG2 videos need to be encoded up to 9.5mbps. So it doesn't matter you encode 30fps video or 24fps video, the file size is determined by the same data rate (megabits per second). You will have more bandwidth allocated to store data in each frame thus each frame shall looks better (for the fact that the higher the data rate, the better the quality).

But the final file size is still the same.

Consider this simple scenerio, if I encode a MPEG2 video using 8 megabits per second setting. For a 30fps stream (assuming it's just a simple mechanism to distribute data amoung each frame equally), each frame will get 8/30 = 0.27 mpbs bandwidth to store data. The same 24fps using 8mbps will get 8/24=0.33 mbps bandwidth to store each frame.

So, for 24fps, each frame has 0.06mbps more bandwidth to store. So the quality should be better (I doubted it will be noticeble). But the overall file size of the video will be the same no matter it is 24fps or 30fps.

So you can't fit more content to the DVD using 24fps than 30fps.

Anyone want to take me on this? :-)

Taky

[Ian-T]

I you ran a test and did this:

1. Capture an M2T file...without editing it save it as an AVI file with Lagarith Lossless codec.
2. Use the same M2t file...remove pulldown and then save it as an AVI file with Lagarith Lossless codec.

The AVI using the #2 method should be smaller in size becasue of the removed frames. But when you write these files to DVD...using identical bitrates they will be the same size (because they are the same lengths). One might theoretically be a bit better in quality but you will most likely not notice the difference.

So Taky...you are correct (I basically repeated what you said...but tried to be a little simpler).

[Ian-T]

Also, to try and simplify things, the only time one needs to remove pulldown is when displaying their material on a PC or if you are planning on putting your work to film. Other than that, if you are jus making DVDs to view on standard Television sets then you can just leave it alone. You will not see any interlacing artifacts on these televisions.

Edit: But once you hit the pause button ..then...some interlacing might be apparent...unless of course you are using a progressive scan DVD player.

[Lunchbox]

Displaying on PC is fine too. It's a video and is supposed to be view as video stream. If you like to pause video and pick on the flaw on it, that's not other people's problem.

The pulldown isn't a new process invented by Canon for this camera. It has been used for years in television broadcast film to home television. If you have seen a blockbuster movie at your home TV from your TV station, you are already viewing 24p content with pulldown.

[Ian-T]

Displaying on PC is fine too. It's a video and is supposed to be view as video stream. If you like to pause video and pick on the flaw on it, that's not other people's problem.

The pulldown isn't a new process invented by Canon for this camera. It has been used for years in television broadcast film to home television. If you have seen a blockbuster movie at your home TV from your TV station, you are already viewing 24p content with pulldown.There is nothing wrong with displaying it as is on a PC but most people can pick up on the ghosting and interlacing artifacts ...some have issues with it others don't.. But since PC monitors are progressive it is probably best to remove the Pulldown.

Its not about having issues with pausing a DVD. My point is that DVD's have special flags embedded in their MPEG-2 streams which duplicates certain frames (as you have already stated). When playing your DVD on a standard TV you will most likely not see these extra frames because most DVD players today (not all) have progressive scan. About five years ago and beyond this was not the case and your Hollywood DVD's would display some ugly jaggies in it ESPECIALLY noticible when pausing the video. This is why I made the case for TV.

Edit: I want to clarify the "standard" tv as being the more and more common progressive flat screen televisions you can buy at Wal-Mart or anywhere for that matter.

[24Peter]

Anyone want to take me on this? :-)

Taky

Well you're clearly more knowledgable than me on this so let me ask you... Is the issue before you get to your MPEG-2 encode.

A "true" 24p file has 20% less information - 6/30=.2

So if you don't remove pulldown a 5 min DV file 30fps = ~1GB (25mbps (~3.1MBps) X 300 seconds = 930MB)
If you do remove pulldown, that same file is now 780MB b/c you've elminated those 6 redundant frames of information (your video will still look the same and have the same running time.)

Now encode your MPEG file at what ever bit rate you want (9.8mbps is the DVD standard max; I use 8mbps CBR to encode my DVD's; Vegas template is 6mbps avg., 8Mbps max). Are you saying the amount of space taken up on the DVD is dependent on running time (how many seconds of video you) and the size of the original file doesn't matter? In other words, a 5 min video at 8mbps (1MBps) = 300MB no matter what size the original file is? You may be right... Yet you can save hard drive space on your original DV files, no?

EDIT: OK - I see Ian confirms this. Taky - you da' man!

[Lunchbox]

Yay! btw, I think the max DATA rate is 9.6 not 9.8.

After all, removing pulldown for web streaming video will be a good thing to do. You stream the same among of data from the web but less frame, which makes each frame has more bandwidth to store more data enhacing the video quality.

[bmaltais]

I would personally rather encode the native 24p frames to DVD at 8mbps vs 60i frames at 8mbps. The wasted 6 frames (12 interlaced frames) will require bits for encoding. Also note that encoding progressive frames in MPEG2 is much more efficient (better bits/frames allocation because the mpeg2 algorythm can do a better job at estimating motion on full frames) than encoding interlaced content.

At the end I can guarantee that picture quality will be better on 24p material vs 60i version.

When encoding 60i at 8mbps about 1.6 mbps is wasted on the extra 6 frames. Essentially 24p at 6.4mbps is ~= to 60i at 8mbps (if interlacing had no effect).

[SmirkySmirker]

I don't get any of this stuff? Why does it have to be so complicated to get the most of the camera? Could someone write a simple step to step thing on how to do it? I don't understand any of the big words or numbers .. -_-

[Lunchbox]

Well, if you read most of my posts here, I have been telling people IT IS NOT A MUST to remove pulldown. So you can just capture and edit your video just like using any other camera. But if you have no experience on using any video editing program, that's a different story.

[24Peter]

Well, if you read most of my posts here, I have been telling people IT IS NOT A MUST to remove pulldown.

I agree. Would be nice if Canon had included flags to allow automatic pulldown removal so one wouldn't have to think about this. But it's not the end of the world. For most people on most applications, it's not a big deal if you don't remove pulldown on your 24p files.

[bluegrass]

So what about all the problems people have been having? Why would you want to go through so much trouble to remove pulldown and that stuff? If you can just capture it and edit it no problem then what's the point?

I've never shot in 24p but I think all the work people go through to do the pulldown is just for exercise and learning how to use their editors more effectively, also you get to learn how to write scripts & batch files, etc.

Wait till you get to adding your 35mm adaptor and learn how to film by looking at everything upside down. That's another exercise people like to do.

[Lunchbox]

You would think? I'm sure even if Canon has done so, there're still people around complaining. It's just human nature :-)

[Ian-T]

I've never shot in 24p but I think all the work people go through to do the pulldown is just for exercise and learning how to use their editors more effectively, also you get to learn how to write scripts & batch files, etc.

...I agree. Also, to add to what you are saying some people need to convert their M2t files to an intermediate file because their PC's can not handle editing MPEG files. So then if you are not interested in removing pulldown all you have to do is:

1. If your PC can handle editing HDV files then it should be as simple as...Shoot>>>>Capture>>>>Edit>>>Burn to DVD (or save as an internet friendly file).

2. If your PC can not handle editing HDV then it should be Shoot>>>Capture>>>Convert to Intermediate(with HV20Pulldown.exe or any ther method...NLE's like Vegas can do the job also)>>>Edit>>>Burn to DVD (or save as an internet friendly file).

[dmoreno]

I'm a bit skeptical about the claim "fitting more content on the DVD". It's true if you remove pulldown from a mt2, you have less frames yeilding a smaller file size (theoratically).

When encoding to DVD, the NTSC MPEG2 videos need to be encoded up to 9.5mbps. So it doesn't matter you encode 30fps video or 24fps video, the file size is determined by the same data rate (megabits per second). You will have more bandwidth allocated to store data in each frame thus each frame shall looks better (for the fact that the higher the data rate, the better the quality).

But the final file size is still the same.

Consider this simple scenerio, if I encode a MPEG2 video using 8 megabits per second setting. For a 30fps stream (assuming it's just a simple mechanism to distribute data amoung each frame equally), each frame will get 8/30 = 0.27 mpbs bandwidth to store data. The same 24fps using 8mbps will get 8/24=0.33 mbps bandwidth to store each frame.

So, for 24fps, each frame has 0.06mbps more bandwidth to store. So the quality should be better (I doubted it will be noticeble). But the overall file size of the video will be the same no matter it is 24fps or 30fps.

So you can't fit more content to the DVD using 24fps than 30fps.

Anyone want to take me on this? :-)

Taky

You can fit more content on a DVD using lower bitrates (it has no relation with fps or the size of the original file). If you have 24 fps to encode instead of 30fps you can store 20% more content of the same "visual quality". This is because a 30 fps clip encoded at, lets say, 8 mpbs shall look the same as a 24 fps clip encoded at 6.4 fps (80% of 8 mbps).
If you plan to burn a short clip to DVD (less than a hour) it doesn't make much difference because you are probably going to use the highest possible bitrate (9.6 mbps) to get the best possible quality and both 30fps or 24fps clips will look good. But on commercial DVDs the actual encoding bitrates go way lower than 9.6 mbps, I authored a 2 hour concert + bonus features of a rock band to DVD (a commercial DVD that is sold here in Costa Rica) and had to go to 4.5 mbps Variable Bitrate 2 pass encoding to fit that much video on a single DVD. When you are on the "low side" of bitrates having 24 fps footage can really help improve your image quality.

If your video is for webstreaming the same reasoning applies (you can have the same image quality with 20% lower bitrate, hence 20% lower download times) so pulldown removal is a good idea. Also because computers have progressive displays is better to get rid of all interlacing artifacts.

In my everyday use of my HV20 I do the following:

1. family footage and everyday stuff I want to store on DVD to watch on my normal SD TV set, burn copies for family members and than kind of stuff:
set the HV20 to output "locked DV" in 16:9 aspect ratio and capture straight to widescreen 29.97 fps mpeg2 files using Mainconcept Mpeg encoder (setting the bitrate as high as I can depending on the amount of footage I am capturing, usually 6 mbps vbr to burn a couple of hours of footage to a single 4.7GB DVD) and the burn those files to dvd (I can edit them on a widescreen 29.97 timeline in premiere, vegas, or any NLE if I need to, usually I just burn the raw footage to DVD). You can also capture to DV using any NLE software and then convert to mpeg2 latter to burn DVDs, this takes more harddisk space, that's the reason I go straight to mpeg2.

2. footage from work:
I capture to intermediate 24 p Cineform files using Cineform HDV, removing pulldown on capture. I then edit on a 24p timeline. Then output to 24p DVDs and, in case of important material, store 24p HD masters for future use (HD DVDs of Blue Ray discs, whenever they become everyday stuff)

[Lunchbox]

If you are talking about lowering the bitrate to fit more content to a DVD, that is of course true and always hold true.

Commercial/Hollywood DVD are mostly using DVD9 format which is 8.5GB in capacity. That's same as consumer dual layer DVD. Therefore, hollywood movies aren't necessary encoded in lower bitrate.

[dmoreno]

At maximum bitrate only 130 min can be fit into a 9.6 GB DVD. A long movie plus extras will have to go down in bitrate. Usually they try to stay up on the main film and try to go down on the bitrate of the extras. Anyway 6 mbps VBR encoded using 2 pass encoding can look, depending on your footage, almost as good as 9.6 mbps CBR

[bmaltais]

And don't forget one thing... again, fitting 30 frames in the same bit rate you would fit 24 WILL result in loss of quality.

Think of it this way. Let say 30fps is 2 digital pictures and 24fps is 1 digital picture ( for simplification purpose) and let say you have a storage device that can store 4MB of data. Obviously storing 1 picture in 4MB will result in a picture looking much better than storing 2 pictures in the same 4MB.

The same apply to storing video content on DVD.

How much of a visual difference will it make? Maybe not much difference if the source is clean and noise free... maybe a lot if the source if noisy and requires much more bits to render the "noise" properly without resulting in a blurry encoded picture.

[Lunchbox]

It is not entirely true.

Unlike AVI which is a INTRAFRAME compression technicque, MPEG2 uses INTERFRAME+INTERFRAME compression that heavy algorith is used to calculate the difference between few frames before and few frames after the current frame. The more the frames it has, the more the similiarity between frames. Thus, the compression can efficiently reduce the amount of data that is needed to store the redundant part between frames.

[bmaltais]

It is not entirely true.

Unlike AVI which is a INTRAFRAME compression technicque, MPEG2 uses INTERFRAME+INTERFRAME compression that heavy algorith is used to calculate the difference between few frames before and few frames after the current frame. The more the frames it has, the more the similiarity between frames. Thus, the compression can efficiently reduce the amount of data that is needed to store the redundant part between frames.

But if each frames contains significant differences due to noise/motion then you will not gain really good compression. So a noticeable quality difference will result.

[Lunchbox]

If your source video is full of noise, it will never be a good video to begin with. Garbage-in-garbage-out.

If your source video is full of high motion, 24p is already proved to be bad in this nature. People recommend shooting in 60i for sports or high motion content.

After all, it your choice. The whole pulldown removal thing freaks out a lot of people. That's what I want to say, if you are capable of removing pulldown, go for it. If not, you still get nice video without removing pulldown.

[bmaltais]

If your source video is full of noise, it will never be a good video to begin with. Garbage-in-garbage-out.

If your source video is full of high motion, 24p is already proved to be bad in this nature. People recommend shooting in 60i for sports or high motion content.

After all, it your choice. The whole pulldown removal thing freaks out a lot of people. That's what I want to say, if you are capable of removing pulldown, go for it. If not, you still get nice video without removing pulldown.

I concur! :hv20-smilie110:

[Ian-T]

.....and the winner is....CHICKEN BUT!!!:hv20-smilie01:

[drmadison]

It is not entirely true.

Unlike AVI which is a INTRAFRAME compression technicque, MPEG2 uses INTERFRAME+INTERFRAME compression that heavy algorith is used to calculate the difference between few frames before and few frames after the current frame. The more the frames it has, the more the similiarity between frames. Thus, the compression can efficiently reduce the amount of data that is needed to store the redundant part between frames.

Just a note - AVI isn't any compression technique, it's simply a container format. The AVI files can contain any sort of compressed data. AVI in fact simply stands for Audio-Video-Interleave - a method of interleaving 1 frame (or field) worth of audio, between 1 frame (or field) worth of video, for easier syncing on the low-end PCs of the lowly Windows 3.1 days when "Video for windows" (i.e. AVI) was really introduced to the public.

[Lunchbox]

drmadison, thanks for your history lesson. For AVI in my post, I refer them as DV-AVI Type II DirectShow file that the file captured using DV Lock.

Microsoft is trying to drive away AVI with WMV. However, as of today, the AVI container is still widely used. Almost all of the SD DV capture are in DV-AVI Type II format. Cineform's capture also in the form of DVI with it's intermediate codec. DIVX is another one.