Depth of Field abilities

[skerit]

I'm currently looking for a somewhat more-professional camcorder, and after reading countless reviews, HV20 really stood out quite well, and then I came onto this forum and read about DOF.

Yes, I don't know much about DOF, I'm just a beginner, after all! (I wanted to study cinematography, or whatever the correct word is in english) but it kinda fell through this year.. Anyway ...)

What are the native DOF capabilities of this camcorder? I see everyone adding these giant lenses to their machines to get some awesome result, but I'm wondering, what do you get without those filters?

Is the entire image *or* sharp *or* blurry?

Because I was reading about the Sony HDR-HC7 and it listed some things about 35mm conversions and all ...
(http://www.camcorderinfo.com/content/Sony-HDR-HC7-Camcorder-Review.htm)

So, does this mean this camcorder doesn't need a filter? (which seems very unlikely to me...)

I'm just asking this because I'm not really well-funded to buy these kind of filters, so I just gotta buy the best camera! :)

[tkmslee]

To be perfectly honest with you, I think you will be happier (especially if your passion is in creative film) if you save money on the camcorder and spend a little to get a 35mm adapter. I bought a GL2, now I know this isn't the highest end camera but it is semi pro, and decided I wanted to go HD. I was reluctant to sell it and buy an HV20, but there was so much good footage from it that I just went for it. Then I made a 35mm adapter for it and the combination of the two are incredible and I am so glad I saved some money.

I'm not sure about the 35mm conversion thing on the link you referenced above, but that camera definitely won't give you depth of field like an adapter...neither will the HV20. Even the guys that use the expensive camcorders for shooting t.v. shows still use 35mm adapters.

We would all love to have the best camera, but if you are after something to get you going and want really great results, you can get the HV20 and a 35mm adapter for around $2000 total (instead of buying a $4000 camcorder and breaking the bank). I have used my HV20 and 35mm adapter for some professional stuff (footage here (http://hv20.info/yopu/hart04.mov)) and I think it makes just as good of footage as some of the semi pro camcorders.

Good luck!

[Frank]

I recently shot a short film at the beach (currently being edited) which had a couple of shots which depended on pull focus to communicate a shift of attention. I got excellent results with the naked camera (no adapter). What I did was set it to aperture priority and used F1.8 (the widest aperture). This gave me the shallowest DOF possible. I was shooting under bright conditions, so I used a 0.6 ND filter to reduce exposure as well as a circ polar. I was in 24fps mode. The automatic shutter speed went to something like 1/200. This is the only drawback to this method; I was mostly shooting at 24fps and 1/48 shutter speed to simulate film motion, but I had to tolerate the higher shutter speed to get the DOF I wanted. However, the shots with pull focus were brief and without much motion, so the fast shutter speed didn't matter.
My one complaint is the tiny focus wheel on the HV20; I had to "roll" the edge of my finger up and down it to get what I wanted.

[skerit]

To be perfectly honest with you, I think you will be happier (especially if your passion is in creative film) if you save money on the camcorder and spend a little to get a 35mm adapter. I bought a GL2, now I know this isn't the highest end camera but it is semi pro, and decided I wanted to go HD. I was reluctant to sell it and buy an HV20, but there was so much good footage from it that I just went for it. Then I made a 35mm adapter for it and the combination of the two are incredible and I am so glad I saved some money.

I'm not sure about the 35mm conversion thing on the link you referenced above, but that camera definitely won't give you depth of field like an adapter...neither will the HV20. Even the guys that use the expensive camcorders for shooting t.v. shows still use 35mm adapters.

We would all love to have the best camera, but if you are after something to get you going and want really great results, you can get the HV20 and a 35mm adapter for around $2000 total (instead of buying a $4000 camcorder and breaking the bank). I have used my HV20 and 35mm adapter for some professional stuff (footage here (http://hv20.info/yopu/hart04.mov)) and I think it makes just as good of footage as some of the semi pro camcorders.

Good luck!

Ah, that's a good point. I was really doubting this, if it was worth it getting a camcorder and an adapter, or just buy one hell of a semi-pro camcorder, but I guess this still wins out, then!

I'm not sure I'll start making my own adapter, though, I'm not particularly crafty, I'd probably just glue my fingers to the camera or something...

In the mean time I can get the HV20 and use some of the settings frank gave me, it's a nice start! :) And I guess I'll look around for some 35mm adapters! :P (Is there a significant price difference between one ready-made and one self-made? A few hundred bucks, probably, but it can't be, like 1/3 of the price...)

Thanks!

[twoneil]

Skerit,

I think that you would find that the HV20 will suit most of your needs. Until you've made some profits from film making, this would be a great start. About the 35mm adapter, there has been lots of updates and information which makes it very easy to make one. The time that I was making one, I had to glue many parts. However, now there is no more gluing and it's basically ready-made.

I sold my semi-pro camera and bought the HV20; the rest of the money I spent on building the adapter. The resulting videos were far superior than the camera I previously own.


Yes, I don't know much about DOF, I'm just a beginner, after all! (I wanted to study cinematography, or whatever the correct word is in english) but it kinda fell through this year.. Anyway ...)

I guess learning through experience would be best, so I think it would be great for you to be familiar with depth-of-field early and learn this technique on how you would apply this in your films.

My recommendation, if you choose to, is to build a static adapter. It would cost you far less than those of professional adapters.
This adapter is not the typical DIY adapter but this adapter can be compared side by side with those costing more than a thousand dollars having little differences.

Let us know what you think, and we ,here at HV20 forum, will gladly help you.

[dewde]

To be perfectly honest with you, I think you will be happier (especially if your passion is in creative film) if you save money on the camcorder and spend a little to get a 35mm adapter. I bought a GL2, now I know this isn't the highest end camera but it is semi pro, and decided I wanted to go HD. I was reluctant to sell it and buy an HV20, but there was so much good footage from it that I just went for it. Then I made a 35mm adapter for it and the combination of the two are incredible and I am so glad I saved some money.

I'm not sure about the 35mm conversion thing on the link you referenced above, but that camera definitely won't give you depth of field like an adapter...neither will the HV20. Even the guys that use the expensive camcorders for shooting t.v. shows still use 35mm adapters.

We would all love to have the best camera, but if you are after something to get you going and want really great results, you can get the HV20 and a 35mm adapter for around $2000 total (instead of buying a $4000 camcorder and breaking the bank). I have used my HV20 and 35mm adapter for some professional stuff (footage here (http://hv20.info/yopu/hart04.mov)) and I think it makes just as good of footage as some of the semi pro camcorders.

Good luck!

Hey man.

So if both the GL2 and an HV20 + 35mm adapter/lens cost $2k... why would the HV20 be preferred? Doesn't the GL2 give you better control (like gain/shutter speed/exposure for example) than the HV20? And wouldn't you get better DOF from a GL2 than the HV20 +35mm adapter?

peace|dewde
http://dewde.com/videos

[twoneil]

Hey man.

So if both the GL2 and an HV20 + 35mm adapter/lens cost $2k... why would the HV20 be preferred? Doesn't the GL2 give you better control (like gain/shutter speed/exposure for example) than the HV20? And wouldn't you get better DOF from a GL2 than the HV20 +35mm adapter?

peace|dewde
http://dewde.com/videos

You get a shallower DOF with the 35mm adapter since you are using an SLR lens. No professional digital camcorder could rival that (except maybe Red One).
And plus HV20 is high definition, GL2 isn't. Besides, you could also control the gain/shutter speed/exposure suggested by a thread in this forum.

[Worley]

I'm not sure I'll start making my own adapter, though, I'm not particularly crafty, I'd probably just glue my fingers to the camera or something...

I've made two adapters now (it's addictive - always an improvement to make here or there). Like you, and I not 'crafty', but you really don't need to be. What you need is plenty of patience*, and ebay account, and resolve. You don't need lots of tools.

*I don't have lots of patience, so I really had a hard time not getting frustrated. But I looked at my sons and watched them trying and trying and trying to learn knew skills, so I just emulated them. You can learn so much from children!

There are severtal threads here to help you build your own adapter, but once you get going you'll start to make your own tweaks and adaptations. It's definitely worth doing. The pleasure and satisfaction you'll get is amazing.

Go for it!

[SenorKaffee]

If you use maximum zoom then you also get a nice shallow DOF without an adapter. But then you need some stabilization system, like a tripod. Shooting from the hand with max zoom could make your audience seasick, OIS or not. ;)

[skerit]

Thanks for the massive replies! :P

Anyway, I think I'm especially afraid to buy all these DIY adapter-components and then screwing them up... Or is this practically impossible? (Unless, like, dropping it or something :))

So, what I've learned so far, semi-professional or not, the best DOF is the one you get from an adapter, and since the most semi-professionals are WAY too expensive, and not even fullHD, chipping in a few hundred bucks isn't such a bad idea.

How are the results with filming in the dark, I read the HV20 isn't bad, but not good at filming in the dark either, and that these adapters take away a bit of the light ...

Hmm, but that last question was probably more suited in a different thread :)

Anyway, thanks for the great reply so far! Wonderful forum, really! :P

[SenorKaffee]

Dark = Get more light or film day for night.
Even in ultra-high budget productions like Transformers you may notice that night scenes look heavily lighted.

[tkmslee]

Yes very true. Pro film makers know you have to light a scene well to get good details...even if it's a night scene. They even knew this in the old b/w films. If you ever watch night scenes from those, you will see major shadows being cast...because they shot in broad daylight and darkened the film later.

If you go for it on the adapter thing, I'm sure anyone here will give you an exact list of things to buy so you won't have to trial and error it. I'm pretty sure you can do a D deal for about $150.

[dewde]

I totally get it now.

I had no idea when I chose this camera what all the buzz was about, but now I do!

It seemed silly that people would buy a consumer camcorder and then build this frankenstein monster out of it basically throwing so much new hardware that they could have just purchased an entry level prosumer camera to begin with.

But what I'm hearing is that a pimped out ~$2k HV20 is actually more powerful in some areas (HDV, DoF) than other cameras in the low $2k price range.


Yes very true. Pro film makers know you have to light a scene well to get good details...even if it's a night scene. They even knew this in the old b/w films. If you ever watch night scenes from those, you will see major shadows being cast...because they shot in broad daylight and darkened the film later.

If you go for it on the adapter thing, I'm sure anyone here will give you an exact list of things to buy so you won't have to trial and error it. I'm pretty sure you can do a D deal for about $150.

You guys are really selling me on this! My wife will curse your names!

Questions:

1. what type of lens should I look for? Tele? Zoom? Macro?

2. isn't this pointless if i dont buy an LCD also? how will i know if i have focus?

chris

[Frank]

2. isn't this pointless if i dont buy an LCD also? how will i know if i have focus?
chris

I'm not sure about focusing with an adapter, but I find the focus assist function works great for me with manual focus. I usually zoom in and allow auto-focus, then lock focus and fine-tune manually. Finally, zoom out to whatever framing I want.
Of couse, I still would like a large hi-res LCD to better see what I'm capturing.

[skerit]

This is kinda becoming an "all in one" kind of thread, sorry about that!! :D

It's just a shame the camera is so much more expensive over here then in America or elsewhere, in Belgium the cheapest one is 1100 euros, in holland I can find one for 900 euros...

I'm looking forward to actually getting all these things for my camera. I always thought those things to hold lights & microphones, I guess they're called an accessory shoe, were on the top of a camera but I can't seem to see it on the pictures... Anyway!

Gonna continue my reading here! :)

Edt: Not that I don't wanna do any dirty work but ... can someone point in the right direction for a good tutorial? The best one I' finding is Daniel's vibrating one, but I guess a static on will do fine, no? When I have all the data I can order everything, including the camera, at once.

[twoneil]

Definitely Daniel's (http://www.jetsetmodels.info/tutorials.htm) adapter. I got my HV20 from Japan (http://cgi.ebay.ca/Canon-HV20-HV-20-iVIS-HDV-Digital-Camcorder-BRAND-NEW_W0QQitemZ220141800014QQihZ012QQcategoryZ20330Q QssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem).
I suggest you go with the cheapest static 35mm adapter posted on this (http://www.hv20.com/showthread.php?t=489&page=13) thread. All of these should cost you no more than $1.2K USD

Good luck

[skerit]

Definitely Daniel's (http://www.jetsetmodels.info/tutorials.htm) adapter. I got my HV20 from Japan (http://cgi.ebay.ca/Canon-HV20-HV-20-iVIS-HDV-Digital-Camcorder-BRAND-NEW_W0QQitemZ220141800014QQihZ012QQcategoryZ20330Q QssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem).
I suggest you go with the cheapest static 35mm adapter posted on this (http://www.hv20.com/showthread.php?t=489&page=13) thread. All of these should cost you no more than $1.2K USD

Good luck

Hold on, what are you saying now? The semi-total cost for building your own adapter is: $77.77, but that's without a lens.

So, you're saying a lens is worth over $ 1.100? I thought I could build my own for about +/- $200? As tkmslee said...

[twoneil]

Hold on, what are you saying now? The semi-total cost for building your own adapter is: $77.77, but that's without a lens.

So, you're saying a lens is worth over $ 1.100? I thought I could build my own for about +/- $200? As tkmslee said...

HV20(japan model) = 890
35mm adapter Adapter = 77.77
50mm f1.8 Lens = around ~50
Shipping/taxes = ~200

Grand total of 1217.77 ....so it's more than 1.2k after all

Well, it's just a template to start with. If the item was sold, just search for the same item.
And remember, that is the minimum. I took off items that I think won't be necessary to achieve a good DOF.

my adapter cost more than that cause I was just beginning and wrecked some materials since I didn't know much.

[skerit]

Ah, lol, sorry a little miss-communication here! :)
I think I'll buy mine in Holland then, it's only 5 euros for shipping, so a total of 904 euros, not too bad after all!

Not too annoy you people with my numerous, insane questions, but why give me Daniel's url as he only has vibrating tutorials?

I saw on the "Free 35mm adapter" thread that your adapter is quite small, and tkmslee's one is quite large.. (Gee, strange conversation this is turning out to be! :D)

God, I hope I don't mess it up when I make it, I can just see giant dust particles on the lens after I made it! :D

[thewinelake]

Pardon my ignorance, but are the HV20's in Holland PAL or NTSC (or something else!)

[skerit]

Holland is Pal, as is Belgium.

But does it matter that much, can't you choose the frame rate to an extent? Anyhow, the resolution's the same! :P

[twoneil]

......Not too annoy you people with my numerous, insane questions, but why give me Daniel's url as he only has vibrating tutorials?......
I saw on the "Free 35mm adapter" thread that your adapter is quite small, and tkmslee's one is quite large.. (Gee, strange conversation this is turning out to be! :D).......
God, I hope I don't mess it up when I make it, I can just see giant dust particles on the lens after I made it! :D
I feel that my post is appropriate on the DOF thread (http://www.hv20.com/showthread.php?p=16184#post16184). It's now been transferred there.