HV20 DV and HDV Comparison

[Doctor F.]

As this is my first High Definition camcorder I was eager to see for myself just what the difference is between HDV and DV, as recorded by the HV20. The following video clip shows footage of recorded (standard) DV (Wide), DV converted down from HDV (using the HV20 “DV Locked” option) and HDV captured into Sony Vegas as HDV.

http://hv20.info/yopu/JRF_HV20_DV_HDV_comparison.wmv (http://hv20.info/yopu/JRF_HV20_DV_HDV_comparison.wmv)
I used FireFTP addon to Mozilla Firefox, took a while (about 45 min) but worked okay.

The clip was rendered in Sony Vegas Movie Studio Platinum 8.0, with the following settings,
Audio: 192 Kbps, 48,000 Hz, 16 Bit, Stereo, WMA9.
Video: 25.00 fps, 1440x1080, PAR=1.3333

Some observations:-
- Recorded DV and down converted DV from HDV (using “DV Locked”) seem pretty much the same. The two recordings (DV and HDV) were recorded one after the other, so lighting conditions (natural light via the window) hadn’t changed.
- Zoomed in (at x10 max), detail in DV is pretty good but HDV shows distinct improved clarity.
- At wide-angle (no zoom), the HDV quality and detail is far superior to DV, which is what I was expecting (hoping ?) to see, but this comparison really brought it home to me. Compare the clip at about time 1:30 with that at time 2:13, for example, the word “VBA 400” on the bass head amplifier stands out clearly on HDV as does the material with the pink motif (to the right of the bass guitar’s neck).
Playing the tape back via the HV20’s HDMI output, onto a 42” (1080i) plasma TV, is even more impressive.
- These shots were all taken hand held, so the HV20’s OIS is doing a good job (comparable with
the Panasonic GS400, my previous, but now broken, camcorder).
- A good demonstration of Instant AF operating, in the pan left from guitar to amplifier.

A very simple test, within a few hours of receiving the HV20, but it has convinced me (as most people on this forum have been saying), that HDV is the way to go. I think from now on I shall record everything in HDV or HDV(PF25) and down convert to DV as required.
I have also made some comparison shots outside in the garden, in bright sunshine, flowers, bees, etc, even more impressed.

Recording a band tonight, in pretty poor light conditions, can’t wait to see how that comes out (will make for a good comparison with the Panasonic GS400). HDV ? Of course !

[Lane_Fielder]

I am about to pick up an HV20 so I was glad to see these shots. Thanks :hv20-smilie03:

[Doctor F.]

I am about to pick up an HV20 so I was glad to see these shots. Thanks :hv20-smilie03:

Glad this was of interest, I am sure you won't be dissapointed and don't forget to upload some of your shots when you are up-and-running.

I recorded about 2 hours of video last night (of a local band) in HDV and since I need to produce a standard PAL DVD for the band, I transferred the video to the computer in standard definition DV, using "DV Locked". Worked a treat, no problems and I intend to use the tapes (cheap, standard Sony Premium tapes) as data storage for the HDV, for future use.
What really impressed me was how easy it was to manually adjust the audio recording level and the exposure while I was filming, using the joystick.

[ixlor8]

What is the HV20 “DV Locked” option?

I am having a problem with Adobe Premiere Pro CS3 seeing my HV20.

Recap: Shoot video in the 1080I mode and down convert this video to SD format with the “DV Locked” option for DVD authoring. Right?

Thanks

[Matthew MD]

whats "DV lock", can I do I do it on vegas 7? And how?

[Doctor F.]

whats "DV lock", can I do I do it on vegas 7? And how?
Hi,
the DV Locked option is on the HV20, it enables the video recorded in HDV to be converted to DV (standard definition video). Its under PLAY/OUT SETUP 2 - DV OUTPUT, in the HV20's PLAY Menu.

The good thing is that it converts to DV (SD) in real time as you download to the computer, saving time in having to first download HDV (HD) and then convert in the PC. Of course, if you want both HD files (.m2t) and SD files (.avi) on your computer from the HV20, then you would need to download with DV Locked set and without (HDV/DV).

Sony Vegas enables you to convert to the video type/standard you require at the rendering stage (Render As …). But, if you only require to output SD (say, to produce a standard DVD), then it will be faster to work with SD files in Sony Vegas.


What is the HV20 “DV Locked” option?

I am having a problem with Adobe Premiere Pro CS3 seeing my HV20.
Recap: Shoot video in the 1080I mode and down convert this video to SD format with the “DV Locked” option for DVD authoring. Right?
Thanks

That’s right ixlor8, that’s what I did. With DV Locked, the computer (and video processing software) will see the HV20 as a Camcorder. Otherwise (HDV/DV) it is seen as an AV/C Tape Device.

I am not familiar with Premier Pro CS3, but with Sony Vegas, before capturing you have to select the video type DV or HDV. If you select HDV, with DV Locked, then Sony Vegas doesn’t recognise the HV20 either.

[ixlor8]

I have found the setting for the DV Locked setting with your help.

The quality of using the DV Lock and inputing into Newtek SpeedEdit was fantastic. The camera conversion was much better than placing the m2t HDV file into SpeedEdit and down coverting to a SD file.

SpeedEdit made the converted file soft and mushy.

Again, thanks for helping me solve my problem. :hv20-smilie70:

ixlor8

[heavymeita]

Whats the difference between dv and HDV?.I have just bought a HV20.

[Frank]

Whats the difference between dv and HDV?.I have just bought a HV20.

HDV has 4.5 times as many pixels as standard definition DV so it has much greater resolution.
You will see more detail and get better color reproduction with HDV.

[tkmslee]

Throw in good lighting and you've got yourself superior images to the XL1.

[Rich]

Doctor F.

Thanks for the demo video. It's one of those issues that you have to see to be convinced. I'm still shooting DV and have too many friends and family who can only handle standard definition at this moment.



Rich

[Doctor F.]

Whats the difference between dv and HDV?.I have just bought a HV20.
As Franks says, with HDV you have around 4 times as many pixels (exact number depends on whether you consider PAL or NTSC), hence much more detail. Standard PAL has 720x576, NTSC 720x480, HDV 1440x1080 (par 1.333), pixels. The problem that will arise (unless you have the capability of producing and playiing HD DVDs) is how you play back HDV on a TV (in general, a PC monitor, should produce good HDV playback quality). I have a HD TV, so I am able to use the HV20’s HDMI connection, but for circulating DVDs, to use in DVD players, I have to use SD. However, you can get about 20 minutes of HD video on a standard (4.7 GB) DVD disc and this is ideal for playing back on a PC.

I have now had the chance to collect and compare more footage.
This video clip compares HDV against DV (using DV Locked), under different lighting conditions.
I am particularly impressed by the reflection in the carriage window, on the tunnel exit (time about 01:06)

http://hv20.info/yopu/JRF_HV20_A4_HDV_DV_compare_02.wmv (http://hv20.info/yopu/JRF_HV20_A4_HDV_DV_compare_02.wmv)

[Diggadonkey]

Thanks for showing this comparison. If this is the result of using DV lock on the camera, then I'll probably never use it. I'll downconvert the HDV footage to DV after editing. The DV locked footage looks so blurry. SD cameras would produce much higher quality pics than that.

[Ian-T]

Yeah you are right. The best results for DV sized footage was always to capture in HDV, edit and then downsize after editing. The footage comes out a lot more crisp than even a top end SD camera. For some reason the HV20's footage comes out soft when capturing DV first (still not a bad picture however...but just a bit too soft for my eyes).

I think maybe HDV has spoiled me. I mean the picture from these HDV cams look even sharper than a $5,000-$6,000 HVX200 prosumer cam.

Edit: In reference to downsizing HDV I think a good example to see that is at Canon's site with the HV10 clips they have there. One is in 1080p while the other is in 480p.

[Doctor F.]

Thanks for showing this comparison. If this is the result of using DV lock on the camera, then I'll probably never use it. I'll downconvert the HDV footage to DV after editing. The DV locked footage looks so blurry. SD cameras would produce much higher quality pics than that.
I have re-checked the original avi files (produced using DV Locked) and the blurring is not as bad as in the comparison footage. I am pretty sure the conversion to wmv format (using Sony Vegas) has introduced additional blur.

Since I am interested in producing a SD DVD, a better approach would be to compare coding to mpeg format (in my case, for DVD PAL). This I have done in this footage, converting straight to mpeg from the .m2t file and the (DV Locked) .avi file.

http://hv20.info/yopu/JRF_HV20_SD_from_m2t_avi_compare_02.mpg

Things now don't look too bad but as many of you on this forum have pointed out, converting from HD to SD using PC software (in my case to mpeg 2, using EditStudio 5) produces better results. I have played this footage through my DVD player onto a 42" Plasma TV and the results match those seen on the PC.

I shall have to try and produce some separate files to show the quality at the varies stages, it has amazed me just how much HD detail is lost going from the .m2t file to .wmv file, never mind to mpeg - a good reason to write .m2t files back to tape and use the HDMI on the Canon to connect to the TV.

I have just finished downloading 4 tapes using DV Locked, time to clear some space I think, and re-download HDV, what a ...............!!??

[ixlor8]

To get the best video image quality is to take video in HDV and import it into your editing program. Have the software editing program do the conversion from HDV to DV.

This is better than the HV20 conversion of the "DV Lock"?

By the way, thanks for all the effort.

Rick

[Baldrix9872]

Ok, I not new to filmmaking, but I'm definately just starting to work in HD.
I was wondering, how exactly do you record and download video to PC. The programs I use now (Magix Movie Edit Pro 12, Adobe AE 6.5 Pro) can import video, as standard .avi files, but how does the software know what type of file it is (HDV or DV) if it comes from the same tape? Do I have to use seperate tapes for HDV and DV or does the camera automatically tell the program that the footage is indeed not NTSC 720X480 but 1080i?

Any help would be appreciated, thanks.

[Doctor F.]

Hi Baldrix,
you can mix DV and HDV on the same tape, I did this when I first started using my HV20. However, I would advise against this as to download to the PC I found I had to switch between HDV and DV (under PLAY/OUT SETUP 1 - PLAYBACK STD). The AUTO option worked fine when playing back through the TV, but for some reason not when connected to the PC.

The computer/software automatically detects whether a DV (Camcorder) or HDV (AV/C Tape Device) device is connected but I don't know if Magix Movie Edit Pro 12 or Adobe AE 6.5 Pro are HDV compatible.

[Baldrix9872]

Ok, thanks Doctor F.
Yes, I know as of yesterday that Magix Movie Edit Pro is HDV compatible. Thanks for the whole play out setup thing, It would have taken me about a week before I noticed it. XD.

Ok, so, I now know not to mix DV and HDV on a single tape, but obviously does that mean that I can record HDV on to a miniDV tape? And if so, is the recording time shortened to make up for the higher quality?

Thanks

[Doctor F.]

Ok, thanks Doctor F
Ok, so, I now know not to mix DV and HDV on a single tape, but obviously does that mean that I can record HDV on to a miniDV tape? And if so, is the recording time shortened to make up for the higher quality?

Thanks
HDV recording time is the same as standard play DV (about 1 hr 2 min). It achieves this because the HDV is using a compressed format on to the tape (mpeg2). With DV, the avi file has limited (if any ?) compression. I find it amazing that HDV quality, for the same storage size, is so much better. The Engineers who define and write the compression algorithms for HDV need some praise. in my view.

When you download the HDV to the PC you may well find that it requires less storage than DV (not sure whether this will always be the case).
For example, for one of my downloaded videos, of duration 25m 50s, file sizes were:-
5,778,385 KB (.avi SD file – using DVD Locked)
5,109,326 KB (.m2t HD file)

I use Sony DV Premium miniDV tapes (ie. just standard tapes, not high definition types) and have had no problems (used about 9 tapes so far, including over-recording a couple of times). Not even one dropped frame, when downloading to the PC.

[Baldrix9872]

Thanks, that great.
I'm switching out my current DV camera for this HV20, so the fact that I can take all the spare DV tapes I have (which I think are the sony DV Premium actually) and use them for HDV.

Again, thanks!

[jmalmsten]

Downloading the vid's right now... and I've been thinking about this for some time now. About the HDV>SP = better than DVSP from start. And the only reason I can think of is this:

While none of them records a full 4:4:4 image, but if I remember correctly, as the compression is subsampled at 4:2:0, the resolution of the HDV's two color channels (speaking in YCBr here;)) would be at least as high as the luminance of DV wich has somewhat the same subsampling... Wich means... if I record something in HDV and then downconvert it to SP I should be able to get a full 4:4:4 image as the compression (if the method is allowed) should allow it to only downconvert the luminance channel and keep the crominance shannels full spectrum to some degree.

Now I know this is just theoretical and to many complete greek-sounding in nature. Also I admit that I'm only a layman and my own knowings in the field are extremely limited. But I think that it may play in in some part of the question of why HDV>SP is better than DVSP...

Oh, and also, Hi! Lurking for a few weeks and have had the cam (hv20) about the same amount of time, and all I can say is... Oversampling works!;)

[GA_Filmer]

If your going to use the DV Lock method of downconverting HD footage the would you use an SD preset? For example in using CS3, if you were to mix HD and SD footage. Would you select an SD preset set the camera to DV lock and capture all your HD and SD footage that way?

[scottmcleod]

Is this do-able in Final Cut Pro? I don't always end up wanting to have to edit (and store) in HDV, but the extra definition is nice...

[John Painter]

I've just gotten an HV30 and shot some footage, I'm curious how to get the most stable shots so I've got a tripod with fluid head, and built a basic steaycam device but I'm not certain the HV30 is better than JVC GZHD7 when mounted, so I'm looking for suggestions on settings for various environments people are using.

Attached is a clip I did of my son in HDV cinemode.

http://www.vimeo.com/1012313

[jerryk]

Thank you very much for this. Here is the point I am unclear on. If I want to follow the path of shooting in hdv and then down converting...I set the camera to DV Lock. In addition, I also set the camera to hdv. Therefore, my NLE software (fcp in this case) recognizes the tape as standard dv and I can go ahead and edit. Then I can turn off DV Lock...set up a new project...re-encode and go back and edit in HDV mode...is this correct?

[Shrigg]

Well, as mentioned earlier you will not get the best quality using DV lock. For best quality shoot in HDV, capture in HDV and then downconvert to SD with your computer. There will be some rendering time but the quality improvement is well worth it.

[litleboy]

For best quality shoot in HDV, capture in HDV and then downconvert to SD with your computer.

What is the best file format and setting to downconvert on SVME plat 9?.

I have been doing a lot of tests. Uncompressed avis are bigger than HDV and MPG2 are no too bad, but I think they will be re-compressed once I render the final video.