So Canon have a few new products since the HV20...

[RobPhoboS]

I've got to send back my HV20 today to either get repaired or swapped for a new item.

Now on the list are:

HV30
HF100
HF11
HF10


Now my main priority is obviously image quality.
I've been soo impressed with the HV20 and especially so when I use my Brevis 35 set up with it !

The 2 things I dont like about the HV20:
Wobbly base connector/thread
Tapes (although great for reliable storage)


So I'm guessing that they are going to outright replace my unit, so I'm left with a bit of a dilemma out of which product to choose.
Do I need to stick with Canon, of course not.

What do I specifically need from my camera ?

Incredible image quality
Threaded lens mount (so I can use the Brevis)
Solid base/thread mount !!!! (ffs why does my one move!)
Microphone Input
Progressive shooting (25p for me)
720p or 1080p (either is ok as I'm not really using 1080 but its nice to have it)
AV input (not 100% needed at all but is handy sometimes)


Annnnd that about does it I believe.
Now I am reading through threads to see what other people think, but I thought I'd post this as my requirements may be a little different.

[EssentialParadox]

Seeing as you put image quality so high I'd stick with the HV20/30. The Canon solid state and HDD cameras have slightly smaller image sensors than the HV20/30, and 20% DOES make a difference! As does low-light pickup.

- In terms of storage formats, HDV is a very mature system. Flash and HDD based storage (although convenient) are still quite in the toddler stage in comparison. It's not just the storage format you're recording onto, but the file format it's stored in. AVCHD is not yet ubiquitous, and if you use your footage within editing software or graphic software you'll need to be aware that it may not always be supported.

- In terms of manual control, the HV20/30 isn't the most amazing piece of kit but is a Godsend when compared to the HF line, which needs a a thumb-joystick to change the focus, aperture, etc.

- In terms of cost, the HV20/30 is also considerably lower in price. Price didn't appear to be much of a concern to you, although you should always think in terms of future upgrading as well. If you consider that 2-3 years from now, all the HF models will be out of date, and that Canon will produce image better image quality, if you don't go for those $1000 models now, you will have that money saved for the 'next big thing'.


I had to make the same choice, and it was these points that got me to stick with the HV30.


//edit: Actually the focus joystick limitation may not be an issue for you if you're using a Brevis adaptor.

[Shadow_7]

Seeing as you put image quality so high I'd stick with the HV20/30. The Canon solid state and HDD cameras have slightly smaller image sensors than the HV20/30, and 20% DOES make a difference! As does low-light pickup.

The HDD based HG10 has the same sensor size as the HV20/30.

I'm looking at an HG20 myself, which does have a 20% smaller sensor (19.xxx%). AVCHD might be a bear, but it does make a difference to have 1920x1080 instead of 1440x1080 stretched. If only for those with long hair and/or wearing plaid. Not to imply better as it's more information to store/process. But I seem to be able to handle AVCHD to a limited extent in linux, and support should get even better with time.

The convenience of plugging an SDHC card into a reader and just copying the file onto your fastest HDD on your fastest CPU'd computer is a no brainer IMO. Plus the convenience of NOT having to swap tapes every hour on the hour in the rain. Although I loose analog input and need to find alternate ways to archive footage, which is more expensive per gigabyte than tape. And it's a smaller sensor which MAY not do as well in low light. Which is only an issue IF you shoot in low light. Although us bipedal cave dwellers do seem to spend most of our time in low light conditions.

[PadawanGeek]

Whats this about a wobble screw? Are you talking about the 1/4 inch screw hole on the bottom of the camera? I don't have any problems with that, you should probably call up Canon.

[szlevi]

The HDD based HG10 has the same sensor size as the HV20/30.

I'm looking at an HG20 myself, which does have a 20% smaller sensor (19.xxx%). AVCHD might be a bear, but it does make a difference to have 1920x1080 instead of 1440x1080 stretched. If only for those with long hair and/or wearing plaid. Not to imply better as it's more information to store/process. But I seem to be able to handle AVCHD to a limited extent in linux, and support should get even better with time.

The convenience of plugging an SDHC card into a reader and just copying the file onto your fastest HDD on your fastest CPU'd computer is a no brainer IMO. Plus the convenience of NOT having to swap tapes every hour on the hour in the rain. Although I loose analog input and need to find alternate ways to archive footage, which is more expensive per gigabyte than tape. And it's a smaller sensor which MAY not do as well in low light. Which is only an issue IF you shoot in low light. Although us bipedal cave dwellers do seem to spend most of our time in low light conditions.

This never ceazes to amaze me, when people quick to praise HDD or SD cams claiming you save time on importing - like it takes sooo long from tape - then they are the first one to dismiss the multiple times longer extra time that AVCHD means either in importing that just-copied-over file or in final rendering time (even if you stick with AVCHD for a BD disc) or in both (depending on your editing suite.)

Let's stop with this nonsense, shall we?
As long as you use AVCHD there's no time savings over HDV/tape-based cams as of today. You save time on getting the footage into the machine but then you will lose multiple times more later down the road. COuple it with its infancy and there's really no reason to pick AVCHD over HDV today if you want quality and flexibility and easy time in editing.
It might change with time but it's not the case, let alone the still-inferior picture quality of AVCHD cams (though in optimal circumstances they come very close) and it's scarce sw support.

When I went for my HV30 back in Spring HDV was superior. Past week I looked around for a new ~$1k cam for someone else and HDV STILL reigns superior. I am sure by January the landscape will change but as of today there's still no better overall choice than the HV30.

[koolpenguin89]

but it does make a difference to have 1920x1080 instead of 1440x1080 stretched.

Does it really? I highly doubt that, if i were to put 2 screenshots up, you would be able to tell what resolution each originally was.

Dylan

[Ian-T]

As long as you use AVCHD there's no time savings over HDV/tape-based cams as of today. You save time on getting the footage into the machine but then you will lose multiple times more later down the road. COuple it with its infancy and there's really no reason to pick AVCHD over HDV today if you want quality and flexibility and easy time in editing.
It might change with time but it's not the case, let alone the still-inferior picture quality of AVCHD cams (though in optimal circumstances they come very close) and it's scarce sw support.

Excellent points. I never really looked at it this way...but you are absolutely right.

[RobPhoboS]

Some great points raised here.

I'm actually working with some M2TS files now, and yes the conversion process is extremely long. However once Premiere Pro CS4 is out, this should resolve some issues dealing with that whole AVCHD annoyance.

The other convenience with a solid state camera is that it won't have some of the tape interruption issues in some of the vehicles I shoot in.

Well I've got possibly a week or two until I have to make a decision.

[Fatlip]

[QUOTE=Shadow_7;138423]The HDD based HG10 has the same sensor size as the HV20/30.

I'm looking at an HG20 myself, which does have a 20% smaller sensor (19.xxx%). AVCHD might be a bear, but it does make a difference to have 1920x1080 instead of 1440x1080 stretched. If only for those with long hair and/or wearing plaid.

A lot of other camcorders shoot 1920x1080 but that does NOT mean the picture will be better.

HV30 is the way to go use the extra cash to buy optics or a good mic.

[d1g1t]

The other convenience with a solid state camera is that it won't have some of the tape interruption issues in some of the vehicles I shoot in.

Tape interruption issues? Can you elaborate on what you are talking about here? Are you shaking the camera so hard that the tape recording is affected and you are getting drop-outs? If so, isn't the rolling shutter (jello/wobble) issue simply horrible at that point anyway?

-- kevin

[RobPhoboS]

HV30 is the way to go use the extra cash to buy optics or a good mic.

Mate, I've got a Brevis 35 + a large selection of lens + DPA microphones...the price wasn't a consideration, nor were 'extras' :hv20-smilie77:




Tape interruption issues? Can you elaborate on what you are talking about here? Are you shaking the camera so hard that the tape recording is affected and you are getting drop-outs? If so, isn't the rolling shutter (jello/wobble) issue simply horrible at that point anyway?

-- kevin

Yes its down to some of the cars I'm in being purely for the race track (ala: Radical SR3/SR8).
Tape can deal with that if it isn't secured to the roll cage, ie: If I'm using a bullet cam that's mounted, and the camera is just strapped down.
But if I'm using the camera directly (which is useful sometimes as its less wires/batteries ect), then it cannot handle such a harsh ride.
But if we are out in Lambo/Carrera GT ect, seems to be ok most of the time.

[Shadow_7]

Does it really? I highly doubt that, if i were to put 2 screenshots up, you would be able to tell what resolution each originally was.

Dylan

Depends on what the picture was of, the lighting, the focus, ..... A picture of a wall, probably not. A picture of an eye chart from a distance, could be the difference between driving with or without your glasses.

As far as processing time. I'm just gonna assume that computing abilities will continue to rise for less cash. As well as software support. Unlike the economy. I'm looking at almost doubling my processing power for < $100 sometime this week. 1.9GHz dual core to 3.1GHz dual core on the desktop, same mobo and other hardware. Just a CPU swap.

As far as extras. I already have audio gear, so not an issue. Sure, I need filters, batteries, hoods, and stuff. But I'd need that with either camera. And for the HV30, I'd also need tapes ($10 per hour, for the good stuff). And a firewire card, cable, and stuff. My current laptop or desktops don't have firewire. So that's extra. Flash media can be rewritten several thousand times. Tapes, only a couple of times before issues start to creep in. Factor in humidity issues with tapes, motor noise, and each has their place. And for me at this time, the HDD based cam is the better fit.

[RobPhoboS]

What cpu upgrades are you doing ?
I forgot that I could do that too, without needing to replace ram/mb/cpu ect
haha, doh

[RobPhoboS]

Well as it turned out my current motherboard couldn't take a faster CPU (Socket 939), I was soo miffed at that, as I could have had twice the power for very cheap.
Well someone has kindly lent me some cash to get another computer, so the whole conversion/editing process should be a LOT faster now.

I also am trialing the demo of 'AspectHD' this seems to be the way forwards full stop. As now I believe I can capture if I still get an HV30, and edit in real time (yey no premiere previews!!!), or if I go down the HF route, it does the conversion nicely too.

Well, will see what happens when I get a report back about my broken HV20.

[Shadow_7]

For me I have an AM2 socket. So AMD Athlon 64 x2 3600 to AMD Athlon 64 x2 6100+.

Swapping motherboards is also an option. Worst case scenario you'll need a universal case $60. And motherboards aren't that much +$100 as long as you don't want the latest and greatest. You might also need a different Power Supply, depending on what you have versus need. Although you might be able to buy a new system these days if you add all that up.

I guess I should praise microsoft more. My mom hated windows Vista so much that she gave me her NEW computer. Which is the one destined for the upgrade. Generally I help people with their new computers and they give me their OLD ones. So I have no shortage of other parts around here.

[RobPhoboS]

Well the time has come to order a new camcorder now (the HV20 was broken beyond repair).

This decision is proving tough actually.
Benefit of using the HV30, I have a few tapes left and a bunch of batteries...but both could be ebay'd.
Obviously if I needed to go back and edit my old tapes, could be an issue but my old uni would let me use their kit still.
Looking at the money the insurance has given me, it's down to either the HF10 or HV30.

(please bare in mind I'm not fully sure on the picture quality difference between both yet)

The benefits of the HF10 for me are:
Solid state (important in the cars I'm in most weeks)
Compact size
Weighs less than the HV30 (HF10-380g HV30-535g)
Still usable with my Brevis
No focus wheel - shock horror! - yup, that pesky roller was bad with my Brevis if I forgot to put tape over it !!!
No wasted time for editing (as mentioned CS4 is out, and I may get a Cineform or Mainconcept product if CS4 is pants)
SD cards, easily available and small.


The benefits of the HV30 for me are:
I know this camera well, and how it performs in certain light, and what its limits are
Analogue input - I use bullet cams a lot, so this is useful - but Im planning on buying a seperate recorder for that now (less cables)
I know I can lock the exposure - can I do that with the HF10? (I need it for the brevis)
Tape is a good storage medium
Focus roller - heh ok ok, I do use it, when Im just shooting with the camera by itself


Erm, thats about it for now.
I'm swaying more towards the HF10, or any other product that is of equal quality (but Canon seem to be doing well).
I need to find some exact comparison shots for the images from both really.

[RobPhoboS]

Oh just to add on.
Have had a look at some HF10 tests on Vimeo... When the camera is still, picture looks very good, when it moves its bloody horrible and blurry (but in a weird way).

[Rumpelgeist]

I know I can lock the exposure - can I do that with the HF10? (I need it for the brevis)
All controls and features are the same except for focus, obviously.

I'm swaying more towards the HF10
Why not the HF100? Dual-flash thing is a gimmick, why paying for it? Just get another card.

As for motion, I did not notice the HF being significantly different from the HV. This was shot with the HF100 in PF30 mode: http://www.vimeo.com/1262610 Is There is some blurring when camera moves, I agree. Is it horrible to you?

[RobPhoboS]

All controls and features are the same except for focus, obviously.

Why not the HF100? Dual-flash thing is a gimmick, why paying for it? Just get another card.

As for motion, I did not notice the HF being significantly different from the HV. This was shot with the HF100 in PF30 mode: http://www.vimeo.com/1262610 Is There is some blurring when camera moves, I agree. Is it horrible to you?

Yep, HF100 or Hf10, not concerned about the internal memory as you said, just have more cards (which I would have a lot of anyway).

As for the footage, cheers for the link :hv20-smilie77:
It seems to have this weird smearing, or something that just feels different.
I can't tell if its because I'm in PAL land (but I'm watching it on my monitor not a TV), it just seems slightly odd.
But I have just watched someone's footage with an HF10 + Brevis35, and it looked stunning but the camera was on a tripod. The things moving around looked good, but it seems to be when the camera is moving around that this effect occurs?

I'll fully admit I'm eager to use SD cards but I don't want to waste around £500 if the camera cannot capture a good enough image without the Brevis.

[Rumpelgeist]

"But I have just watched someone's footage with an HF10 + Brevis35, and it looked stunning but the camera was on a tripod. The things moving around looked good, but it seems to be when the camera is moving around that this effect occurs?"

When the camera is on a tripod, only the moving things has to be re-encoded. when the camera is handheld, the whole frame is constantly changing, and obviously with limited bitrate you can do only so much. In this case 1920x1080 can actually be worse than 1440x1080 as the camera has to encode more blocks within the same bitrate. As it cannot do it properly when a whole frame changes, it just blurs it to avoid macroblocking. I wish it could do 1440x1080 or even 1280x1080 or even 720p at the highest bitrate. Unfortunately, the HF can do either 1440x1080 @ 12Mbps or 1920x1080 @ 17Mbps.

People sneer on AVCHD cams saying they looks worse than HDV cams. Well, this is only because of higher frame size! More stuff to encode. And the designers were stupid enough to not offer an option of choosing a smaller frame size with higher bitrate. It is not a problem of AVCHD per se, it is a problem with implementation. On the other hand, this is a consumer cam, and a normal consumer will never be able to decide what mode to choose, and will bug Canon with questions. I bet Canon is already being bugged enough with frame rates.

The point is, that while HDV may look better than AVCHD when there is motion in the frame, DV looks better than HDV. But HDV is high-def after all, so most people agree to live with its quirks. In case of HDV vs. AVCHD these are both HD formats, and difference in resolution (actual resolution, not frame size) is almost non-existent. In this case people prefer one that looks better overall, and HDV may have an edge here just because of smaller frame size.

EDIT: most consumer HD cams have about 600-650 lw/ph resolution, so 720p frame size would be perfectly fine. But a regular consumer would cringe, what, ONLY 720p? It is not a REAL 1080i/p camcorder? Damn consumers. Damn Canon for choosing 1080i. Damn Sony for pushing 1080i down everyone's throats for at least 10 years already.

[RobPhoboS]

Yeah I agree wholeheartedly too.
In fact I think HD burst open onto the scene WAY too soon, I think it should have been delayed by another 2 years perhaps from now.
It's messed up so many things, from storage space to even issues like this, too much too soon. (Sure its paved a new way for many other things but its VERY frustrating).

The trouble is, I would happily spend much much more on a camera, but only when my companies start earning some real money, so for now I have no choice but to choose one of these little cams.
In fact 720p is the resolution I prefer as most TV sets can view it, but obviously its the 1080p cameras which are pushing the technology forwards now.

[Ian-T]

I can live with 720p. It's just the 1080i (referring to interlaced footage that is) that I find unecessary. As a matter of fact I always understood it as common practice to downrez your 1080p footage to 720p so as to hide any noise or compression artifacts. The footage will look just as sharp but also a bit smoother. I'm glad however as a consumer I can still choose my frame size. Most everything i do ends up as 720p. But the fact that the cam natively catches all of that information at a higher frame size makes it all the better. I look at it the same way as getting the best possible Standard Definition output...which is by shooting 1440x1080 and downrezzing to 720 x 480. Looks so much better than natively shooting in "SD."

[RobPhoboS]

I concur.

Have you played with any of the other cameras Ian?

[Rumpelgeist]

Resizing from 1080p is ok. Resizing from interlaced halves vertical resolution. This sucks. Interlace must die.

[RobPhoboS]

Resizing from 1080p is ok. Resizing from interlaced halves vertical resolution. This sucks. Interlace must die.

Amen !

Now if only everyone use PAL as well :hv20-smilie84:

[RobPhoboS]

Well the cheque has arrived, so I'm on the hunt !

One thing that I'm going to try and do tonight, I'll head over to local stores with an SD card and try out some tests (if they let me).
I hate shopping for new stuff like this :(

[RobPhoboS]

Just looking at this thread:
http://www.avforums.com/forums/camcorders-video-editing/797845-new-canon-hf11-64gb-24-mbps-capturing-4.html

I downloaded his files and the footage looks amazing on my computer, no weird stutter like it has on Vimeo?
Maybe if you have a moment someone could pop up a small MTS file here?

[net]

This never ceazes to amaze me, when people quick to praise HDD or SD cams claiming you save time on importing - like it takes sooo long from tape - then they are the first one to dismiss the multiple times longer extra time that AVCHD means either in importing that just-copied-over file or in final rendering time (even if you stick with AVCHD for a BD disc) or in both (depending on your editing suite.)

Let's stop with this nonsense, shall we?


When I import Canon AVCHD; I connect the camera to the pc, it prompts to save files, I click it and it transfers the data from the cam's drive at the same rate as if I was transferring from a regular external USB pc hard drive; quickly.
They are now .mts files on my pc.
If from the SD card, I just copy the Stream folder onto my PC and rename it. The files are ready to edit in Vegas. I do not notice any extraordinary amount of time in rendering.

and...that's it. :hv20-smilie81:

Have fun with your "tapes". :hv20-smilie79:

[RobPhoboS]

When I import Canon AVCHD; I connect the camera to the pc, it prompts to save files, I click it and it transfers the data from the cam's drive at the same rate as if I was transferring from a regular external USB pc hard drive; quickly.
They are now .mts files on my pc.
If from the SD card, I just copy the Stream folder onto my PC and rename it. The files are ready to edit in Vegas. I do not notice any extraordinary amount of time in rendering.

and...that's it. :hv20-smilie81:

Have fun with your "tapes". :hv20-smilie79:

:hv20-smilie84:

[net]

:hv20-smilie84:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v649/gdogmom/Emoticons/Smiley-nod.gif

[RobPhoboS]

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v649/gdogmom/Emoticons/Smiley-nod.gif

Soz, I clicked the wrong one... I was meant to be laughing *with... not shakey head laugh :hv20-smilie70:

[Ian-T]

I think he's bowinig at you to say...thank you.

[net]

I think he's bowinig at you to say...thank you.

I thought he was like "nuh-uh" :hv20-smilie84:

...and I was like "uh-huh" http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v649/gdogmom/Emoticons/Smiley-nod.gif

[RobPhoboS]

Now Im like... doh :hv20-smilie01:


I'm forgetting looking at Vimeo now as I'm only interested in the original files from the cameras.
From a few that I've seen (mostely HF11), the image looks really good and pretty much on par with the HV20 from a very ROUGH guess.

Would just like to see HV20/30 vs HF100/10 vs HF11 but precise tests including the things that these cameras dont like !
:hv20-smilie01:

------------

Well I've decided I'm going to try and pick up an HF11 tomorrow from a store that allows returns.
I'll give it a whirl at home for 24hours, and if its on par image wise with the HV20 - I'll get it as I NEED to record in race cars.

[net]

Well I've decided I'm going to try and pick up an HF11 tomorrow from a store that allows returns.
I'll give it a whirl at home for 24hours, and if its on par image wise with the HV20 - I'll get it as I NEED to record in race cars.

If you mean mounting the camcorder inside a car; you should probably look into the "rolling shutter" issue first. The HF11 is going to have the rolling shutter problem just like the HV20/HV30.

See:

http://dvxuser.com/jason/CMOS-CCD/

http://www.vimeo.com/2043552

http://www.vimeo.com/videos/search:%22ROLLING%20SHUTTER%22

http://hv20.com/showthread.php?t=9399&highlight=%22rolling+shutter%22

[RobPhoboS]

If you mean mounting the camcorder inside a car; you should probably look into the "rolling shutter" issue first. The HF11 is going to have the rolling shutter problem just like the HV20/HV30.

See:

http://dvxuser.com/jason/CMOS-CCD/

http://www.vimeo.com/2043552

http://www.vimeo.com/videos/search:%22ROLLING%20SHUTTER%22

http://hv20.com/showthread.php?t=9399&highlight=%22rolling+shutter%22


I didn't really get massive problems with rolling shutter (Hv20), but I've got an AMG 63 Black to test it on first. If the quality of the video is on par with the HV20, then I'm happy... if the rolling shutter can't handle it, I'll be crying myself to sleep.
I'm still looking for an HD bullet cam, but they haven't caught up yet.

[RobPhoboS]

Right.
I've got an HF11 arriving on Mon/Tue - which has a 7 day money back option (desperately needed that).
I would have had it on Friday but their shop don't do the 7 day policy, only their website (annoying) so I'll be doing a few tests.
We'll head out in the Carrera GT if its dry some day next week, and I'll do some other tests as well to see how it copes.

Anyone want to see anything specific whilst I have it ?

[hazemabdulrab]

When I import Canon AVCHD; I connect the camera to the pc, it prompts to save files, I click it and it transfers the data from the cam's drive at the same rate as if I was transferring from a regular external USB pc hard drive; quickly.
They are now .mts files on my pc.
If from the SD card, I just copy the Stream folder onto my PC and rename it. The files are ready to edit in Vegas. I do not notice any extraordinary amount of time in rendering.

and...that's it. :hv20-smilie81:

Have fun with your "tapes". :hv20-smilie79:

....i wish we can all move on and stop using tapes...i know people have their reasons for using tapes..i dont know much about this stuff im just sayng that it makes it easier for us......its alot easier on noobs...and u dont have to buy tape and keep replacling them....plus its easy to delete the scenes u dont want in a instant,...which helps to keep things organized....and yes it is easier transfer to computer.....IDK im not a cam genius like u guys.. im just saying its easier on people and the whole point of technology advancing is to make it easy and simple on people...

saves time
saves money
helps to keep things simple and organized


AND ITS TOTALLY COOOOL.....:hv20-smilie09::hv20-smilie09:


DOWN WITH TAPES:hv20-smilie102:

[RobPhoboS]

I'm still waiting for my one to arrive, can't wait :D

[RobPhoboS]

YEY its here :)
Looking good for a test on Sunday: (Carrera GT/Murci/SLR/F40) :D