i dont like the hv20. jvc gz-hd6 or canon HF100?

[jason7]

some months ago i bought a hv20 after reading many raving reviews about it.
after shooting for a few minutes i coudnt stand the jello effect and returned it. i shoot a lot of action so fast pans are not usable for me with this camera.

i have used high end cameras so if there is some annoyance like this i tend to lose sleep and end up hating the camera and returning it.

i am consireding again buying a small camera but cant really trust those pro reviews.

i have seen the jvc gz-hd6 and the canon hf100. the first one has 3 ccds and shoots the goold old hdv. the second uses the latest avchd which i have never used professionally.

i have read that it is difficult to edit and cpu intensive. i dont know if this applies to a macbook pro 2.5 with 4gb ram.

anyway, what are your thoughts on this 2 cameras? i would consider any camera that gives me at least good picture quality like the dvx100 used to give without worrying about strange jello effects. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0qC0_nIUq9s&feature=related)

thanks in advance.

pd. can someone confirm too if the jello effect was fixed on the hv30?

[Rumpelgeist]

"Jello effect" is caused by rolling shutter of CMOS sensors. The HV has a CMOS sensor, so does the HF.

The HD6 does not shoot HDV simply because it is a tapeless camcorder. But it does shoot MPEG-2 TS, which can be handled by most NLEs that are capable of processing HDV.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MOD_and_TOD_(video_format)

[Shadow_7]

Interesting effect. I was considering the JVC HD-7 myself. But have been leaning towards the HV-30 / HG-20. Same quality (or better) at a much lower price point. I don't plan on any jello effect since I wont be subject to vehicle vibrations. Or at least padded by being handheld, versus hard mounted to the vehicle. But it's nice to know of such things. Since I'll be doing audio things that may subject the camera to similar vibrations, via sound.

[Eugenia Loli-Queru]

Get a CCD camera. However, CCD cameras have much smaller sensors than the HV20/30, and so you will get much less depth of field -- should you ever want it.

[Rumpelgeist]

Panasonic HDC-SD1 has 1/4-inch sensors. The camera can be found on ebay for 400-500, even some NIBs for 600-650. Video is not as detailed as from the HF100, but I like colors and ergonomics more than on the HF100.

http://www.avchduser.com/articles/canon_HF100_vs_panasonic_SD1.jsp

http://www.avchduser.com/articles/HF100-SD1-05-controls.jpg

[jason7]

i have been thinking about the options and i think this is what i need:

-Hdv not avchd. I only hear bad reports about editing avchd
-24p. a must. 30p is not good enough.
-3Ccd not cmos. because i need to do fast pans. cmos has the rolling shutter problem.
-Progressive not interlaced. no need to explain.
-East to capture and edit in final cut. some alternatives to hdv like .tod files seem to need conversion before editing them into final cut.
-Don't care tape hd or flash. as long as it has all this other features.

the gz-hd6 and gz-hd7 seem to have most of these features but the format they use is more time consuming when editing.

any other options?

thanks in advance.

[racer-x]

Next time you mount the camera in your car, make sure to turn Image Stabilizer off. That should help eliminate that strange effect in your clip..............

You might want to try one of the cheap Aiptek cameras. They shoot only Progressive and up to 60 fps @ 1280 x 720. The capture mov/h.264 to a card. I don't use macs, but it might be able to handle it.

[Duke]

i have been thinking about the options and i think this is what i need:

<snip>

the gz-hd6 and gz-hd7 seem to have most of these features but the format they use is more time consuming when editing.

Get a Canon Xh-A1. It's a 3 CCD camera so no 'jello' from a rolling shutter. With the presets it can match the colors of the HV20/30. It's HDV so easy editing and firewire import.

If you take the lens hood off it's a couple inches shorter and only about 10" long compared to the HV20 being 5.5" long.

Also, it's been out awhile so the prices have dropped. I've seen a few used ones on craigslist for ~$2.2k. (Watch for out-of-state scammers though.)

[jason7]

thanks duke but i am in europe and the prices are higher here.

racer-x, i was looking for something more proffesional. those cameras look cheap.

[Ian-T]

Jason...with all due respect..i think ou are being way too choosy. You seem more concerned about how that camera looks than its actual performance. With all of the specifics you want on a camera ...you might have to bit the bullet and get yourself a pro-sumer cam like the A1. You are not going to find everything you want....especially in a consumer cam. Get the JVC cam that you mentioned...it might not have as good a picture as some others....but it has 3CCDs...so you don't have to worry about the jello effect.

By the way...the jello effect can be mastered if you try. All I do is shoot from my vehicle with my HV20 mounted...and I have -0- problems..none.

[jason7]

thanks for the comments.

this is another cam that has the exact same problem as the hv20
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cItYepSTw74&feature=related

can you avoid this on the hv20?

[Duke]

can you avoid this on the hv20?

Sure, don't pan so fast. :hv20-smilie02: Seriously, you can't see anything when you pan that fast anyway.

If you tell me that you are taping motocross racers and they go fast, guess what? A CCD camera will do the same thing when you go up and down for the jumps. There is no perfect camera. You'll need to do more research so you can make informed decisions.

[Rich]

can you avoid this on the hv20?
No. I don't think any camcorder in existence will show decent video when panned that fast.

I believe that the camera in your first sample was not mounted properly. That is just my opinion, but I recall seeing the video.

You might consider getting a CCD camcorder instead....


If you search here on HV20.com for "Rolling Shutter" you get about 179 hits.

The HV20 and the HV30 have shown to have the Rolling Shutter problem just like all camcorders with CMOS sensors (except any which happen to have global shutters, which are rare). So it's nothing new. Being there are probably several thousand HV20 and HV30 users here it is only a problem for some situations.

Here is a good explanation of the problem "SENSOR ARTIFACTS AND CMOS ROLLING SHUTTER by Barry Green"
http://dvxuser.com/jason/CMOS-CCD/



Rich

[dan pak]

Panasonic HDC-SD100. End of story.

[jason7]

the Panasonic HDC-SD100 seems like a good option but is AVCHD. i cant find detailed reviews on editing in this format. they seem to say that it requires a fast machine but no details on how fast. i have a macbook pro 2.5, 4gb ram.

sorry for so many questions. i appreciate your answers.

[Shadow_7]

the Panasonic HDC-SD100 seems like a good option but is AVCHD. i cant find detailed reviews on editing in this format. they seem to say that it requires a fast machine but no details on how fast. i have a macbook pro 2.5, 4gb ram.


AVCHD is CPU needy. And support may not be all that great on older software versions. And it really depends on how you define edit. With lacking computational power, you can always convert the video before editing. I can do that in linux(and likely will do that), so it would be hard to imagine any recent software that couldn't handle it to some degree.

Although AVCHD does seem to require at least one 2.2GHz cpu just for playback(in realtime). And debatable on 2.6GHz quad core or 2.8GHz single core for editing. Which is where you might run into issues with mom/pop types trying to view/edit their AVCHD footage on that computer that they bought back in 1998. Or a brand new walmart special that still doesn't meet the minimum specs.

While computers are not cheap (as in free) these days. You can acquire respectable computing power for under $500 aka less than the purchase price of the camcorder these days. Although maybe not as desirable if you consider that price as part of the purchase price of the camcorder.

[Rumpelgeist]

The SD100 has tiny 1/6-inch CMOS sensors.

[jason7]

i guess that avchd is not for me then.

[fishops]

i have been thinking about the options and i think this is what i need:

-Hdv not avchd. I only hear bad reports about editing avchd
-24p. a must. 30p is not good enough.
-3Ccd not cmos. because i need to do fast pans. cmos has the rolling shutter problem.
-Progressive not interlaced. no need to explain.
-East to capture and edit in final cut. some alternatives to hdv like .tod files seem to need conversion before editing them into final cut.
-Don't care tape hd or flash. as long as it has all this other features.

the gz-hd6 and gz-hd7 seem to have most of these features but the format they use is more time consuming when editing.

any other options?

thanks in advance.

The JVC cameras have none of those features. The MPEG-2 footage that comes off the hard drive is actually more difficult to deal with in a Final Cut workflow than AVCHD, since FCP has no native support for it. I also can't play it back full-frame on my dual 2ghz MBP, though you may have better luck.

Aside from the post headache, they shoot 1080/60i only, and the image quality is middling at best.

if you're looking for a progressive, HD video camera in the same price range as the HV20, you're not going to find it. Believe me, I looked. A used DVX100 might be a good option for you if you're willing to shoot in SD.

The rolling shutter issue is a bit of a pain, but whip pans like that don't look that great at 24fps anyway. I think the lack of manual controls are way more limiting than any problems the CMOS present.

[fishops]

i guess that avchd is not for me then.

Assuming you're using final cut, I wouldn't say that. You may not be able to playback at full frame at full speed, but you have some options available. OfflineRT is one, transcoding to a less intense codec is another, simply not blowing up your viewers to fullscreen is another. Not wonderful solutions, but AVC seems to be the way of the future, so the codecs are certain to get more efficient. (someone please buy me an hmc150)

[jason7]

Yes, I am using final cut. Thanks for the comments on the jvcs. I have used the jvc 251 the prohd one and was looking for something similar but more portable. they kind of heavy. it shoots 720 at 60p which looks amazingly sharp.
is there a more portable camera with at least nice 720p that is not the hvx which i dislike?

i checked the d90, the new canon but they have worse rolling shutter problems than the hv20.

so many cameras...ahhh

[fishops]

Yes, I am using final cut. Thanks for the comments on the jvcs. I have used the jvc 251 the prohd one and was looking for something similar but more portable. they kind of heavy. it shoots 720 at 60p which looks amazingly sharp.
is there a more portable camera with at least nice 720p that is not the hvx which i dislike?

i checked the d90, the new canon but they have worse rolling shutter problems than the hv20.

so many cameras...ahhh

The JVC pro cameras work great, but their consumer department is a whole other ball of worms. I can't imagine there's any crosstalk there, unlike Canon and Sony who seem to have a real connection between consumer and pro.

What don't you like about the HVX?

Honestly I can't quite tell what you're looking for. What's your budget, what are you shooting, and what's your usual delivery format?

[jason7]

i want a camera that doesnt make me hate it after prolonged use. I plan to shot shorts and experiment with the camera. I could use the big pro cameras but they are big and make you slow.

the hv20 seems like a good option except for the rolling shutter problem which i cant stand. if there is an hv20 with ccds i would buy it.

another cam that i like is the ex1 but it is kind of expensive for me.

[awa202]

get a sony HDR-HC7 or HC-9

[Shadow_7]

Even with CCD cams, you'll get smear if there's any light sources in the shot. Like a reflection of the sun off of a mirror. Or the sun in person. Which I why I'm leaning towards a CMOS camera myself. Rolling stutter is an issue. But I intend to be braced on a tripod when I shoot. And not panning fast while fully zoomed.

[dditzler]

If you are using Final Cut Pro just transcode the video to ProRes. That was made for editing HD material and works much better in FCP. Even on my HV-20 I take the HDV to ProRes and work in that. On the PC I would look into ciniform.

Also I've had good luck with mounting a Panasonic Lumix P&S in a car. They shoot video well and have 28mm lens. Plus they are about $250. I am waiting to get my hands on the new LX3 and that shoots 720P with a wide angle lens. They are so small you can put them where you could only mount a lip-stick cam so it gives you some more options.