Canon HV20 USB port; HDV editing

[rwforsyth]

Hi,

I am in the process of deciding which HD camcorder to buy and am on the brink of purchasing a Canon HV20.

I want the camcorder to make films with. With the recent death of Ingmar Bergman (I.B.) I think there's probably a gap in the market for deeply depressing films, preferrably in black and white, and I hope they don't need to be in Swedish.

I do a lot of Am.Dram., and have been a fairly serious amateur photographer, have little experience of video camera work, but have done a fair bit of simple video editing. I know quite a lot about PCs.

I've tried to find answers to the following questions by browsing the Net, but have failed. I hope they're not too silly for words:

1. Can I use the USB port to connect my video editing software (Ulead VideoStudio 11 plus) to the Canon HV20, both to download HD film to the editing software, and to upload completed edited films, or do I have to use the FireWire port for either / both of these processes.

2. Some of the stuff I've found on the web suggests that one converts the HDV raw footage to an Intermediate Codec for editing purposes (e.g http://www.vasst.com/hdv/hdv-FAQ.htm). Is this necessary with Ulead VideoStudio 11 plus (which seems to be doing something a bit similar anyway).

3. I guess the 3rd question is whether the Canon HV20 is the right sort of camera for a budding I. B. who wants to focus on the story, rather than the video technology, but still wants high quality output to show on his HD TV, and eventually to the rest of the world.

4. There is a fourth question. Does the 24p mode of the HV20 offer practical advantages for I.B. or is it primarily a techy nice-to-have, or something that doesn't quite work the way one wants to?


Any help or thoughts would be much appreciated.

Richard Forsyth

[white_2kgt]

1) NO, the USB port is for download pictures, you use the Firewre port for download video, just like any other video camera.

[rwforsyth]

1) NO, the USB port is for download pictures, you use the Firewre port for download video, just like any other video camera.

Thanks very much - 1 down, 3 to go.

Richard F.

[SenorKaffee]

2) Ulead says it works with HDV, so you need no intermediate codec. There are also free tools to capture HDV and convert it to an intermediate codec.

3) Depends on what you want to spend. In this price segment there are only few cameras that can compete with the HV20.

4) Since I have a PAL (25P) model, I can´t tell you much about 24P. Have a look at the 24P workflow subforum.

[rwforsyth]

2) Ulead says it works with HDV, so you need no intermediate codec. There are also free tools to capture HDV and convert it to an intermediate codec.

3) Depends on what you want to spend. In this price segment there are only few cameras that can compete with the HV20.

4) Since I have a PAL (25P) model, I can´t tell you much about 24P. Have a look at the 24P workflow subforum.


Wow!!! This forum is amazing - responses to all 4 questions within 1/2 a day. Thanks for the help. I think the support from this community is the clinching factor in persuading me to go with the Canon HV20

Thanks again

Richard Forsyth

[white_2kgt]

Wow!!! This forum is amazing - responses to all 4 questions within 1/2 a day. Thanks for the help. I think the support from this community is the clinching factor in persuading me to go with the Canon HV20

Thanks again

Richard Forsyth

Agreed! There might be a better camera out there for the price (if there is, let me know :)), but if you can't figure out how to use it, whats the point :hv20-smilie77:

[Terfyn]

If you are in Scotland, will you not be using the PAL system? If so, your cine mode is 25p and is easier to handle in the editing stage.
The HV20 will be more than adequate for your needs. Am Dram often gives lighting problems. The HV 20 is good at low light.
More important is the sound. It is universally agreed that the HV20 mics are c**p. You will need a good mic or mic system to feed the sound into the mic socket on the camera. (At least it has a mic socket!) There are a number of threads on sound here to look at.
And a rain hood for the Scottish weather!
Cheers from Cymru

[rwforsyth]

If you are in Scotland, will you not be using the PAL system? If so, your cine mode is 25p and is easier to handle in the editing stage.
The HV20 will be more than adequate for your needs. Am Dram often gives lighting problems. The HV 20 is good at low light.
More important is the sound. It is universally agreed that the HV20 mics are c**p. You will need a good mic or mic system to feed the sound into the mic socket on the camera. (At least it has a mic socket!) There are a number of threads on sound here to look at.
And a rain hood for the Scottish weather!
Cheers from Cymru

Yes, we're PAL here in Scotland, and it's good news that everything is easier for 24P / 25P. Is there a noticeable visual difference between 24/5p and 1060i created on HV20???

I hope not to film Am Dram productions, but use Am Dram actors to make films. I'm thinking of buying a couple of lights (not on-camera) to light the set. Is that common practice - gives one more control, I hope.

Good to find out mic is not quite up to scratch and that you can solve it with external mics.

I know it's wet up here, but actually you seem to be having things worse down your way - and England this year at any rate.

Thanks for the help.

Richard F

[rwforsyth]

Agreed! There might be a better camera out there for the price (if there is, let me know :)), but if you can't figure out how to use it, whats the point :hv20-smilie77:

Quite - and there's nothing like the community of users to tell you how to use it. I wonder when Canon will start paying community members for the customer service they offer their customers.:hv20-smilie31:

[Terfyn]

When I was involved in making a film of the local Am Dram production (on a Sony v800 Hi-8) we mixed the sound and fed it into the camera through an attenuator. Now the HV20 has both an attenuator and a Mic level control so (now I'm guessing - I havn't tried it) probably the camera will take a line in from a mic. mixer. I kept my condenser mics from those days and they work a treat on the HV20.
One of the advantages of the HV20 is the choice of white balance levels so you will be able to tune easily into the colour temperature of your lights. In a way, the more lights the easier to light the set, but reflectors are very useful and cheap to make.
In my view, a tripod is a must as will be extra batteries for location shots.
I have never used the 25p cine setting, other threads discuss this at length!! Only way is to try it and see which you prefer. The NLE should cope with both frame speeds.

[rwforsyth]

When I was involved in making a film of the local Am Dram production (on a Sony v800 Hi-8) we mixed the sound and fed it into the camera through an attenuator. Now the HV20 has both an attenuator and a Mic level control so (now I'm guessing - I havn't tried it) probably the camera will take a line in from a mic. mixer. I kept my condenser mics from those days and they work a treat on the HV20.
One of the advantages of the HV20 is the choice of white balance levels so you will be able to tune easily into the colour temperature of your lights. In a way, the more lights the easier to light the set, but reflectors are very useful and cheap to make.
In my view, a tripod is a must as will be extra batteries for location shots.
I have never used the 25p cine setting, other threads discuss this at length!! Only way is to try it and see which you prefer. The NLE should cope with both frame speeds.


Your mic experience sounds interesting. I don't have anything so sophisticated, but I've got a self-powered Sony stereo mike which is quite good quality which I'm hoping to be able to use, and maybe get others. Is there any way to get 5.1 in, or does the HV20 only support stereo in Dolby format.

Yes, the white balance adjustments will be handy.

I also agree on reflectors - with a couple of lights and reflectors one should be able to get almost any lighting effect one wants, and of course a tripod is essential.

Great to know there's other lovies in the forum, if that phrase isn't offensive. Maybe there's enough of us to have our own discussion area for theatre / film type thingies.

Thanks again for the feedback. I'm so encouraged, I may have to go out and buy 2 HV20s - or maybe not - 1 would be pretty damn good to have.

Cheers,

Richard F.

[zephyrnoid]

"I've got a self-powered Sony stereo mike which is quite good quality"
Which one?
I use this one and so far like it for general ambience- too much rear pick up, but hey, it was free.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v226/zephyrnoid/HV20.jpg

[Terfyn]

In the sense that 5.1 assumes five speakers, thus five channels of sound - NO. The HV20 can only record two channels of sound i.e. L & R stereo. It can, however, in 12 bit sound, Playback four channels, mixed as STEREO1 and STEREO 2, the second two channels being dubbed on by an outside source. (This reflects a recording standard of PCM sound in DV mode, not a special feature of the HV20)
Some editing software, for example Pinnacle Studio 11 (which I use), will create and record to DVD a 5.1 soundtrack. It relies on the fact that I can locate a sound source at any point in a room just by moving a point in a listening field shown as an area between five speakers. So, for example, I can force the sound of a car to follow the car on the screen or even away from the screen into the room.

[rwforsyth]

"I've got a self-powered Sony stereo mike which is quite good quality"
Which one?


It's a Sony ECM-MS907 - I've used it for recording outdoor Shakespeare productions and it's been pretty successful. Actually, it looks very like yours - but mine wasn't free it cost £100+ / ~$200 US. Also, I don't have the bit at the end which attaches to the Canon. Did you get that with the mic or did you buy it, and what is it?

I also use an Edirol R-09 (Roland) MP3/WAV recorder, which I'm pretty pleased with. When we start on a new production, we record a readthrough and distribute to cast on CD, and I use it for that - speeds up production when quality is not super-critical.

Actually, I wonder if I ran a cable from the headphones output of the Edirol to the mic. in of the HV20, if I could use its mics for recording as I film??? Hmmm - probably better to stick with the Sony.

[rwforsyth]

In the sense that 5.1 assumes five speakers, thus five channels of sound - NO. The HV20 can only record two channels of sound i.e. L & R stereo. It can, however, in 12 bit sound, Playback four channels, mixed as STEREO1 and STEREO 2, the second two channels being dubbed on by an outside source. (This reflects a recording standard of PCM sound in DV mode, not a special feature of the HV20)
Some editing software, for example Pinnacle Studio 11 (which I use), will create and record to DVD a 5.1 soundtrack. It relies on the fact that I can locate a sound source at any point in a room just by moving a point in a listening field shown as an area between five speakers. So, for example, I can force the sound of a car to follow the car on the screen or even away from the screen into the room.

?? How about using Stereo 1 and 2 to record voice for lip-sync, and dub sound effects later in NLE? That's what I was assuming as a production process.

Your being able to move sound around the 5.1 soundspace in Pinnacle Studio 11 sounds pretty smart. No such facilities that I'm aware of in Ulead Videostudio 11+ that I've been using. Oh God!!! I don't want to change NLE, but I'm beginning to wonder..... the Sony Vegas stuff sounds good.... Is there a recognised leader of the pack in NLEs???

cheers,

Richard F.

[Terfyn]

You can download a free version of Sony Vegas (30 day trial) I am with Studio 11 because my first Canon camera had a free disk of Studio 10.5 SE and I stayed with it.
Vegas is the most popular, certainly in the Colonies!, but when I tried it I could not work it out!!!(being thick does not help) so I stuck with Pinnacle Studio.
Incidentally you can't access Stereo 2 on record, I asked Canon. Just treat the mic. socket as a Stereo input, I don't see why you cant use a connection from the headphone out to the HV20 Mic. socket but I do suggest you switch on the attenuator and lower the mic level at first to test it.
On Studio 11+ you have a video track with live sound, an overlay track with live sound, a music track and a voice over/ sound effect track, all of which are flexible for other uses. I like it but then I was bought up on it for digital editing, it has good control over the sound and with Studio 11+ Ultimate you get Bias Soundsoap which is an intelligent noise filter. If you want greater detail please contact me through the Private Message system and we can set up an e-mail contact which will be more flexible for transferring data etc.

[rwforsyth]

If you want greater detail please contact me through the Private Message system and we can set up an e-mail contact which will be more flexible for transferring data etc.

Terfyn, thanks very much for this. I think there's enough detail for now - as I haven't got the camera yet, and that's probably a couple of weeks away. Once the camera arrives, if I need more, I'll get in contact then.

Thanks a million for all the help up till now.

Richard F.

[Terfyn]

You're welcome. Dont forget to include an extra battery and a charger. Recharging on the camera is a pain as the batteries can take up to an hour to charge! There is plenty of choice on the web, my charger is mains and 12 volt for car use.
Good luck with your new camera.

[Numbox]

3. I guess the 3rd question is whether the Canon HV20 is the right sort of camera for a budding I. B. who wants to focus on the story, rather than the video technology,


Me thinks me won't like your films. If you feel that Bergman was only focused on the story and not on the visual aspect of his movies than you're sadly mistaken. Right now i feel like you're one of those "i'm a starving artist and nobody understands and appreciates my art" kind of people. You need to change your attitude and fast, cause movies have to be equally good visually, audibly and story wise. That's why we have movies besides theater shows. Anyways, i hope you'll prove me wrong.

Btw, have u seen his Vargtimmen? Tha is one of the most beautifully shot movies ever.

[DaveReporter]

I am a journalist in real life and have reviewed several NLEs.

1) The NLE that I use is Vegas 7.0e. No ifs, no buts. It has taken time to learn it (I started with Vegas video back in 2000) but it does everything that I would want. If you are a Mac person then most of my colleagues use Final Cut Pro.
2) My colleagues that work in the television industry seem to like Avid - I have not reviewed it so I can't comment but it is fairly popular albeit expensive.
3) Ulead - their customer service needs some serious improvement and to my impression their professional editing package is quirky and has an unusual workflow. Add to the fact that from time to time I would lose lip-sync and found it difficult to carry out what I consider simple tasks (such as adjusting the aspect ratio from 16:9 to 4:3) and Ulead lost me. Rumour has it that they have stopped development of their professional editor at version 8 and will now concentrate on consumer editing packages.
4) I am waiting to see Adobe's CS3 offering - it could be good.
5) I have used NewTek's SpeedEdit. It offers a unique storyboard approach to editing which would make it great in a newsroom or for quick edits. It is comprehensive and extremely powerful with some really neat features. Of course one would need to spend time learning it as the documentation is poor and many features are buried behind menus. No on-screen help either is a big minus.

That's my opinion - feel free to PM if you want specifics as I have access to most of the NLEs on various test machines around here.

Dave

[rwforsyth]

If you feel that Bergman was only focused on the story and not on the visual aspect of his movies than you're sadly mistaken.

You're absolutely right - my fault - loose use of English. Visuals and sounds and story very important. What I was trying to suggest was that I wanted to focus on the film rather than the camera. I know photographers who will take better photos with a box brownie than I will ever with the most technically sophisticated kit. That's what I aspire to do.

[rwforsyth]

Btw, have u seen his Vargtimmen? Tha is one of the most beautifully shot movies ever.

Nope, I haven't got to that yet. At the moment I'm working through the 50s stuff and got a long way still to go. I've never really watched Bergman until about 2 weeks ago when there was a BBC4 festival for his 89th birthday with a couple of his films and a couple of documentaries about him.

I was bowled over, and we have Swedish friends who have a lot of his films which they've lent me, and I've been reading his autobiography. I've been through about 12 of the films so far with The Seventh Seal, Wild Strawberries and Summer Interlude standing out as highlights so far.

If felt really weird when he died about a fortnight after I was into this process - as if I'd been participating in his wake before he'd died.

Cheers

Richard F.

[rwforsyth]

I am a journalist in real life and have reviewed several NLEs.

1) The NLE that I use is Vegas 7.0e. No ifs, no buts. It has taken time to learn it (I started with Vegas video back in 2000) but it does everything that I would want. If you are a Mac person then most of my colleagues use Final Cut Pro.
2) My colleagues that work in the television industry seem to like Avid - I have not reviewed it so I can't comment but it is fairly popular albeit expensive.
3) Ulead - their customer service needs some serious improvement and to my impression their professional editing package is quirky and has an unusual workflow. Add to the fact that from time to time I would lose lip-sync and found it difficult to carry out what I consider simple tasks (such as adjusting the aspect ratio from 16:9 to 4:3) and Ulead lost me. Rumour has it that they have stopped development of their professional editor at version 8 and will now concentrate on consumer editing packages.
4) I am waiting to see Adobe's CS3 offering - it could be good.
5) I have used NewTek's SpeedEdit. It offers a unique storyboard approach to editing which would make it great in a newsroom or for quick edits. It is comprehensive and extremely powerful with some really neat features. Of course one would need to spend time learning it as the documentation is poor and many features are buried behind menus. No on-screen help either is a big minus.

That's my opinion - feel free to PM if you want specifics as I have access to most of the NLEs on various test machines around here.

Dave


Dave - thanks for all this - it's really helpful. Sounds like Vegas is the way to go. Once I've got the camera I think I'll try out Ulead's VideoStudio 11+ which I've already got and so no investment, with a fallback to Sony Vegas if it doesn't work out.

Once I get to that stage, I may take up your offer to PM you if I run into trouble.

Thanks again.

Richard F.