Canon 5DMII SLR Camera with movie mode 30P & 1080P!!!

[citidon]

Announcement will be next week but all sources are saying this monster will have 1080P video, full frame 35mm sensor, and 24P.

If it can shoot in 60i or 30p, i'm gonna have to unload my hv30 and letus DOF adapter. :hv20-smilie79:

[Dr. Benway]

I have a 5D with a 24-70mm f2.8 and considered waiting for the MKII; in the end the 5D as it is is more than capable and any shortcoming is with the photographer and their imagination. I hang out at flickr some and people there have even posited that what if the 5D is a freak and the 5D MKII is actually a let down. Time will tell.

However, I am very interested in the spec. and price of the MKII.

If it does have video I imagine it'll be plenty as this is the list price of 5D as of now:

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/397314-REG/Canon_0296B002_EOS_5D_Digital_Camera.html

[1]

Link please?


That cam has been rumoured since March 2008 with all kinds of different specs.


Would be cool though.

[Dr. Benway]

Mal, if you are referring to a replacement to the 5D simply as a stills cam. the rumour mill has been turning since late 2006, and particularly April 2007 as the replacement cycle of Canon is considered consistent and many expected an update then. Fools.

The 5D upgrade has defied that logic though, hence the apprehension and high expectations.

The 5D sensor is a stunner, pulling 12 meg RAW files off it at 25fps, as I think some people expect(?), would be quite a feat; as in ridiculous. It's true video capabilities may leave some people wanting.

[1]

Oh, okay, my info is a bit old (or too new?) then!

Thanks for the clarification, Dr.

I am eagerly awaiting something from Canon that beats or equals the D90 (as I have mostly Canon glass, and my trusty 300D is getting rather old and beat-up....)

[Ian-T]

Where did they say this? I've been locked at this (http://www.canon.com/moon/en/index.html) site for the last several hours.

[1]

What the...

Is something gonna happen there, Ian-T?

You scumbag, now I'll be watching it too.....just because I'm curious to see what happens....

AHHHHHHHHHH.....the suspense.............

[dan pak]

Where did they say this? I've been locked at this (http://www.canon.com/moon/en/index.html) site for the last several hours.

OMG, what a tease!!!

[Dr. Benway]

The 5D with a 24-70mm f2.8 is a slayer. It will do me for a very long time and if it went missing I would buy another in an instant. I say this in all sincerity as a professional photographer and one who has used, but not owned, almost every camera known. I was a hardcore butch Nikon documentary photographer and find the 5D to be the best. more compact than the MKII and III's, and the Nikon D3, and far more capable. Ken agrees:

http://kenrockwell.com/tech/1ds-mk-iii-5d-d3.htm


http://www.kenrockwell.com/tech/20x30.htm

And he is a Nikon fanatic.

5D vs 5D MKII: In terms of pure photo quality I bet the ACTUAL differences will be non-existent, they'll be the domain of number spec. obsessive moley photo nerds; simply not worth the extra cash or cachet.

[Ian-T]

What the...

Is something gonna happen there, Ian-T?

You scumbag, now I'll be watching it too.....just because I'm curious to see what happens....

AHHHHHHHHHH.....the suspense.................my job is done....:hv20-smilie68:

[Ian-T]

Seriously....I have no idea when they will make this announcement...but i fugure it would be at that site.

[Dr. Benway]

When it arrives pay close attention to the video spec.

I am sceptical.

[1]

Yeah, but who says it even DOES video?

[Ian-T]

I dunno man....with a theme like "Destined Evolution"....I think this might be something big....DSLR evolving into video....maybe..

I optimistic.....but not necessarily about the price.

[1]

....my job is done....


Why, you son of a...

:hv20-smilie79:

[Ian-T]

Why, you son of a...

:hv20-smilie79:

I figured since CW is currently MIA...I'd take his place for a bit....:hv20-smilie77:

[1]

Haha, well in that case let me tell you what I fine job you are doing!
:)

[Dr. Benway]

True Mal, if it doesn't do video and is stills only then I dunno. They be wanting to refresh their sales and satisfy the techno lust of 5D adherents with money to burn.

Critically I can't see that the image quality will be that much better. Incremental, but not quantum.

It'll take a while for the true photogs to work it out, not the (sponsored) review sites which you can't really trust.

Interesting.

[thequads]

If it does do video I'm guessing it will have very limited features. There's no way Canon will allow a dslr to undermine their whole camcorder division.

[Duke]

The specs I saw said HDMI out, so it probably does some sort of video. But the early talk was 3-6 fps, not 1080/24p. But firm specs aren't released yet.

With 1080/24p, an interchangable lens, a 35mm sensor and 12-16 megapixels reduced to 1080, it could be superior to Scarlet. Although it's all vapor-ware still.

I noticed canon hadn't released a lot on their new lines. I think one draw back to Red's long marketing hype is it gives the big camera companies a long time to gear up to offset Red's touted advances. That competition could be an advantage to all of us.

[1]

Well, there's a LOT of rumours on the MkII I see, but many still think it won't have video.

Re: RED: I doubt RED has any impact on what the big cam makers do or don't do. They will be mostly influenced by direct competition; RED hardly puts a dent in their turnover. Some active message boards will hardly change the course of R&D and Marketing departments of these huge corporations. CANON alone shipped 100 million compact digital cams, and something like 12 million dSLRs!

Like Canon is saying: Destined Evolution....we're just seeing stuff that was bound to happen, sooner or later. RED brought it a bit sooner in a very awkward package. The big companies are now catching up with their own, very solid equipment. But they would of anyway. Nothing has changed.

EDIT: oh wait, I see you're basically saying the same thing, Duke, I somehow misread first.

[Ian-T]

I think one draw back to Red's long marketing hype is it gives the big camera companies a long time to gear up to offset Red's touted advances. That competition could be an advantage to all of us.Exactly... A drawback for Red maybe...but I think it's a plus for consumers. For a lot of folks that are waiting on Scarlet (if this cam has video)...they will second guess themselves...I mean...there will only be a few advantages in buying a Scarlet at this point (variable frame rates and RAW like capture...and some others)...but as you suggested...these "well-in-advance' notices that Red puts out about their future products gives the competition (who has been doing this much much longer) more time to come up with a good product to match their specs....and steal away their thunder.

[Lucasberg]

I hope it has a 1080 30p or at least 720 30P funtion, I have a bunch of canon glass. Bringing 2 cams everywhere blows. With a DSLR that does video , you will all ready have the right lens set with you for the outing.

[spideralex90]

my biggest question is still for citidon, which is where did he get his info, and why hasn't he posted again?

[David]

I've read similar conjecture, but it's all rumors at this point.

I'm not holding my breath on this until it's confirmed or generally believed to be true by all the DSLR nuts that follow this stuff and right now it's neither.

[Dr. Benway]

I hope it has a 1080 30p or at least 720 30P funtion, I have a bunch of canon glass. Bringing 2 cams everywhere blows. With a DSLR that does video , you will all ready have the right lens set with you for the outing.

That's right. Although I love to travel light, in having an HV20 and a 5D the fact that they are separate, and reliable, forces me to use each for it's intended purpose.

[Duke]

my biggest question is still for citidon, which is where did he get his info, and why hasn't he posted again?

Yes, but with him we'll know if it's true or not in a week or two, not six months from now.

[spideralex90]

Yes, but with him we'll know if it's true or not in a week or two, not six months from now.

i'm confused.

[Ian-T]

The official Canon announcement will be next week.....that is what I believe he means....

[Duke]

The official Canon announcement will be next week.....

Yes, that's what I mean.

[spideralex90]

oh okay. i can be a little slow sometimes.

[Kyleman]

It looks like Canon shows a little more now, you see the "Canon" logo and part of a lens. It's still not much, damn them. :hv20-smilie87:



-Kyle

[1]

It looks like Canon shows a little more now, you see the "Canon" logo and part of a lens

Darn! At the rate they're revealing that cam on that site it will be available in 2011! :)

[1]

I boosted the thing a bit, it gives some indication of what it is (no pop-up) but it's a really pathetic attempt to get to any answers:

2599

[citidon]

Compare the moon teaser from Monday to today, you can see that the moon is more bright and more of the camera shows in the reflection.

if you track the moon calendar, its a full moon on 9/15 next monday!!! :hv20-smilie70:

[Ian-T]

I boosted the thing a bit, it gives some indication of what it is (no pop-up) but it's a really pathetic attempt to get to any answers:

2599
LOL.......your desperate aren't you??:hv20-smilie79:

[1]

Darn right i am! :)

[Kyleman]

Darn right i am! :)

Haha! I thought to do the same thing! :hv20-smilie79:



-Kyle

[Dr. Benway]

http://gizmodo.com/5043240/unconfirmed-more-canon-eos-5d-mark-ii-specs-leak-lookin-good


Full weather-sealing would be nice, but stepping it up to 21.1mp to compete with the Mark II and III? Mmm, I dunno about that, time will tell.

I have a current 5D and can say that it is great. It is a camera that is currently used for award winning imagery; an improvement will be mere details and an attempt to refresh sales.

Weather-sealing yes, anything else... I'll wait and see.

[jabloomf1230]

It looks like Canon shows a little more now, you see the "Canon" logo and part of a lens. It's still not much, damn them. :hv20-smilie87:
-Kyle

September 17, 8am.

[Kyleman]

September 17, 8am.


Sweet.



-Kyle

[Dr. Benway]

Okay, with so many people now sharing and publishing their photos online what critical difference will the MKII make? If we look at the many stunning photographs posted here at flickr:

http://www.flickr.com/groups/canon5d/pool/

Will incremental improvements in the spec. result in noticeably better photographs?

Or will it simply be a case of making the 5D more of a joy to use?

Mmm... I wonder?

[booggerg]

Okay, with so many people now sharing and publishing their photos online what critical difference will the MKII make? If we look at the many stunning photographs posted here at flickr:

http://www.flickr.com/groups/canon5d/pool/

Will incremental improvements in the spec. result in noticeably better photographs?

Or will it simply be a case of making the 5D more of a joy to use?

Mmm... I wonder?

5D has a very weak AF so they can definitely improve this with the MK2.

5D is also lacking weather seal.

5D's high ISO performance lags that of the Nikon D3 and the new Canon 50D.. MK2 should match of better these cameras.

[Dr. Benway]

Hi, yes I agree, but point-for-point image quality in most mediums, be it Internet or a high-quality print, most punters will never know the difference.

This is an exercise is refreshing the market and repositioning the 5D within that market. Weather-sealing and a self-cleaning sensor will be the high points.

It'll be interesting to see what Canon charges for the privilege. Buyers may want to consider saving their pennies for the glut of 5D's that will hit the market in successive years. Pro documentary photogs are using the 5D now and have been for years, how good do you need?

If anyone is considering purchasing one of these 'MKII's' they may want to wait until some good photographers have put it through its paces rather than trust sponsored review sites; although in saying that how tragic could it be? The 5D is stellar.

[booggerg]

It'll be interesting to see what Canon charges for the privilege. Buyers may want to consider saving their pennies for the glut of 5D's that will hit the market in successive years. Pro documentary photogs are using the 5D now and have been for years, how good do you need?

I also shoot with a 1DMK2 so I know how much improvement the 5D could receive. Nikon D700 also has a superior AF than the 5D... I need the AF on the 5D MK2 to be at least close to that of 1D or D700/D3, but I doubt it will be.

[benkrebs]

Okay, with so many people now sharing and publishing their photos online what critical difference will the MKII make? If we look at the many stunning photographs posted here at flickr:



speaking as a photographer, and a serious one, not one who totes $2000 glass around for looks and flickr status...

we make very good use of every one of those megapixels when it comes to prints, ad work, etc...

its not cheap to work with phase one or sinar backs, which previously were the only thing to offer resolution necessary for professional portrait and fashion work, so making larger sensors available for lower end dlsrs just adds to convenience

apples and oranges comparing something like that to a dslr, but some jobs fall in the middle ground, so its nice to be able to use a canon over a hassy..

sure the internet has changed the way photography functions in the day to day photographers, but for those who make use of their gear, a site like flickr has no bearing on whether or not theyre getting the cover shot for Elle..


sorry if this offends long time flickr subscribers, but half the real professional photography that goes down, by contract cant even be posted on those sites.


*just a note*

[booggerg]

http://www.robgalbraith.com/bins/content_page.asp?cid=7-9316-9603

Sounds very good!

Sample movies

http://web.canon.jp/imaging/eosd/eos5dm2/02.html#01

[1]

Can't see the video, but if the specs are accurate:

YES! YES! YES!

12 minutes max recording (approx.), mov extentioned MPEG4, and a STEREO external mic input!!!

YUMMY!

[booggerg]

Can't see the video, but if the specs are accurate:

YES! YES! YES!

12 minutes max recording (approx.), mov extentioned MPEG4, and a STEREO external mic input!!!

YUMMY!

No it's 30 minutes recording time... or 4GB limitation per clip..

[Lucasberg]

• Available optionally during Live view mode
• 1920 x 1080 (16:9) up to 12 mins (Quicktime 1080p H.264; 38.6 Mbits/sec)
• 640 x 480 (4:3) up to 24 mins (Quicktime 480p H.264; 17.3 Mbits/sec)
• Max file size 4 GB
• Quicktime MOV format (H.264 video, PCM sound)
• 30 fps

1080p H.264; 38.6 Mbits/sec) what is that date rate? Is it good?

[Dr. Benway]

Sounds fine, I better buy shares in a CF card manufacturer.

[1]

No it's 30 minutes recording time... or 4GB limitation per clip..


technically 29:59 mins, but they say Canon gets about 12 mins on the best setting, depending on subject matter. variable bit-rate?

[1]

Is anyone able to check the sample movies??????

[Dr. Benway]

sorry if this offends long time flickr subscribers, but half the real professional photography that goes down, by contract cant even be posted on those sites.

Hi Ben, I understand that, as I do pro photo. I am no flickr subscriber my point is that how good does it need to be? Most people who trawl the 'net looking for the next best thing and post images will pay through the nose for the cachet of the MKII will no improvement in their ability to make lasting images.

Re; video spec: 12 mins will be more than enough for most, but for some exceptional sequences that's just too short.

Sure, having EF glass will make it pretty, you'll also chew through CF cards.

[1]

PDF file:
http://cweb.canon.jp/pdf-catalog/eosd/pdf/eos5dmk2.pdf

(in Japanese)

[1]

Okay, its own site with movie samples:
http://cweb.canon.jp/camera/5dmark2/index.html

[David]

This... is... HOT!

And it has HDMI output. AND audio input, for those who are looking for such a thing.

The videos look good to me, but they're so tiny it's tough to really tell.

[Lucasberg]

I was able to see 2 of them and they looked good.

[Kyleman]

Awesome! Now, I want to see a price and some more videos. :) So far it sounds good.



-Kyle

[Lucasberg]

I think it said $2,699 list price so it should be a little cheaper.

[David]

I think it said $2,699 list price so it should be a little cheaper.

That's body-only. The one with the lens has an MSRP of $3,500

[Lucasberg]

Well since I have a grip load of EF glass I'm a happy camper and would only need the body. This looks pretty good.

[David]

Well since I have a grip load of EF glass I'm a happy camper and would only need the body. This looks pretty good.

:hv20-smilie77:

[Kyleman]

Yeah pretty pricey. However, the specs weigh it out some.



-Kyle

[Lucasberg]

David are you a DSLR guy too?

[1]

It's already obvious, after only a few minutes, that THIS is the cam what we all wanted the 90D to be.

I was a little concerned that the Canon wouldn't even match the Nikon, especially as some "insider" rumors kept telling us this.

It appears that Canon didn't hold back though, which is GREAT.
Sure there can be room for improvement, but THIS IS FRIGGIN' AWESOME!!!

PS: expect some half-naked chick, or some weird speculative announcement, over at the RED forums, or some other candy. it sure took a hit out of Scarlet-mania if you ask me. Not that Scarlet isn't a better Video cam: it is. But it appears they certainly aren't the only game in town. Oh, wait, they haven't even released the thing yet, and this Canon is available in 6 weeks!

[1]

$3500 for a kit isn't half-bad. Not for what this cam "appears to be" capable of.

Also, after some months that should come down too....it's MSRP after all.....although something tells me this one will hold its MSRP for some time.....just like the HV20 did when it came out.

[David]

David are you a DSLR guy too?

I'm about to be :)

I'm an old-sk00l 35mm still photo guy turned motion picture guy turned HDV guy. I've thought about getting a real DSLR instead of my little pocket digital camera, but adding more gear into my life is not something I've wanted to do. This new movement of DSLRs that shoot HD is going to change things up in my life, I think.

I'm not sure if I'll buy the 5DMkII, but I might. Tech moves so quickly, I'd like to see what comes out in the next 6-months or so before jumping into anything.

BTW, I just checked out your profile and went to your Vimeo page. That Desert Bugs (http://vimeo.com/1694619) video you shot is amazing. Really nice stuff. What did you shoot that with?

[1]

BTW, it's 30p only, no 24p?

If so, I should change the thread title.

[David]

BTW, it's 30p only, no 24p?

That does appear to be the case.

When does this hit the streets? Anybody know?

[Kyleman]

BTW, it's 30p only, no 24p?

If so, I should change the thread title.

I noticed this, too.



-Kyle

[Lucasberg]

Thanks man
I shot that half with the HV20 and Half with my Sony HC3.

This will change my life as well having both in one will be the best thing ever. I think I will be selling stuff until I can afford it.

Bringing both photo and video blows. Bring ing one cam for video and photo and a couple lens to cover everything will be awesome.

[1]

When does this hit the streets?

End of November 2008 (in the USA).

[1]

Bring ing one cam for video and photo and a couple lens to cover everything will be awesome.

I agree! This is sweet.

[saintlobak]

Damn, having a bunch of Nikkor lenses and a DOF adapter lying around, this really hurts!

[David]

I guess the next questions will be how bad the rolling shutter is and whether or not Canon limited the manual controls the way Nikon did with the D90.

[Lucasberg]

I really want to see some handheld shots and find out about what exactly you have control over. On the Rob Galbraith: http://www.robgalbraith.com/bins/con...id=7-9316-9603 site it says you dont have control over shutter speed and it will range from 1/30th to 1/125th , I hope we have control of ISO.

[1]

I guarantee it won't be all what we want. No doubt.
Let's just hope we can get enough workaround; oh yeah, the rolling shutter.

All the samples are all shot frighteningly stable!!! Hmmm....

[Eugenia Loli-Queru]

I saw the Canon announcements tonight, and I would have liked the G10 model if it had 1080p, good mic, with selectable 24p/30p (at the right NTSC/IVTC frame rates instead of 30.00) and exposure and focus bracketing.

Instead, they added the 1080p feature and good stereo mics, and focus/exposure bracketing on their SX1 20x zoom camera, which unfortunately it's huge and has only a 2.5" LCD instead of 3.0".

The 5D MII is a nice device, but of course too expensive for most of us. If we are going to pay $2700 to get this camera for video usage, we better go buy an XH-A1 which is geared towards video the proper way. This is why is more important for the cheaper cameras to do good video rather than the expensive DSLRs.

[1]

This is why is more important for the cheaper cameras to do good video rather than the expensive DSLRs.

More important to whom?

I'm at the stage where I prefer the better stills with "okay" video, as opposed to "okay" still with good video.

Horses for courses. :hv20-smilie77:

[Eugenia Loli-Queru]

If you are primarily a photographer, sure. But if you are primarily a videographer, then no. The video that comes out of these digicams have problems, from exposure jumps to focusing. But they are "ok" as an average point and shoot device. Given that you wouldn't care about that video too much -- exactly because it can't compete with a proper camcorder's controls and functionality -- then it's a good deal to be jammed with an "okay" digicam, like the G10. You pay $500, and you get something that you can use in your vacations without a problem.

However, if you are serious in either photography or videography, then you better carry two devices: a good DSLR, and a good camcorder. I just don't see the point of an expensive DSLR to be able to deliver "mediocre" 1080p video, or an expensive camcorder to deliver mediocre pictures. Unless you are a reporter in sport events that there might be a case where you REALLY need to get some video to sell to your TV channel, something that the other reporters with real camcorders missed, then there's no point.

Update: Let me explain: you are outside Britney's house. You are going to have a leak on the back side -- all the rest of the paparazzi are on the front. Britney comes out from the back, and you are the only one there to get some exclusive footage. You get some pictures, but then Britney starts shouting like crazy. Then, you REALLY need to get some actual video.

For these photographers, that need to get some quick video because the situation warrants it, it makes sense to get some video on their DSLR so they can sell it. But for all other uses, it's not. No normal person would get a DSLR because it does 1080p video, and no serious videographer would get a DSLR when a real camcorder works better without the exposure/focusing problems and the extra niceties.

So unless you are a reporter/paparazzi, I just don't see the point of it. I see more value in video in cheaper cameras, where people really want an all-in-one mediocre camera for cheap, rather than specialized expensive hardware like the DSLRs are.

[1]

No worries, and point taken.

I just disagree, that's all. Probably mainly because I am looking at it from a totally different perspective.

Oh, and the video that [I am hoping] this 5D MkII is capable of is just fine and dandy for me.....heck it's a lot better than SD from the looks of it (and I was shooting that only a few months ago).
But final proof is in the pudding, as they say...

[nobbystylus]

But surely for control of depth of field and low light performance this thing is going to be better than any camcorder out there? Especially with real lenses and full 1080p. Plus HDMI output.

[1]

G10

Oh, the "G" series?
I must admit, those don't do it for me...AT ALL! In fact, IIRC it was one of the only things I ever returned in my life, when I bought a G5 (or was it G4) way back when. It's a form factor that doesn't suit me. I don't like it.

I have a Canon SD1000 which is great to take anywhere, and it takes decent stills (for me). And a DSLR, albeit an old 300D.
The combo of those two suits me perfectly; and I am in the market for an upgrade to the 300D. The 5D MKII looks like it might be the one.

Attached a pic from the SD1000 (@$220 back in 07), shot out of a moving car a few months ago:

[dcloud]

Update: Let me explain: you are outside Britney's house. You are going to have a leak on the back side -- all the rest of the paparazzi are on the front. Britney comes out from the back, and you are the only one there to get some exclusive footage. You get some pictures, but then Britney starts shouting like crazy. Then, you REALLY need to get some actual video.

For these photographers, that need to get some quick video because the situation warrants it, it makes sense to get some video on their DSLR so they can sell it. But for all other uses, it's not. No normal person would get a DSLR because it does 1080p video, and no serious videographer would get a DSLR when a real camcorder works better without the exposure/focusing problems and the extra niceties.

So unless you are a reporter/paparazzi, I just don't see the point of it. I see more value in video in cheaper cameras, where people really want an all-in-one mediocre camera for cheap, rather than specialized expensive hardware like the DSLRs are.
good example. heh!!

[Ian-T]

30p....that sucks. sigh....

[Ian-T]

I have a strong feeling that Canon skipped out of this feature on purpose... It's got a prosumer camcorder market to protect. I guess this news is good for Canon lens owners...but...it's not all that big to me. What would have been a so called "evolution" wou9ld have been if they offered 24p (IMO). I think Nikon got them in this area.. The Canon pictures look better than Nikons though...so far.... But with all the carefully shot videos we have seen so far..I'm wondering also about the rolling shutter. Hmmm....my mind is already on a 24p hack... I seen some exposre jumps in at least one of those videos....i don't know what that means...but i hope it is controllable.

Canon....almost...did it. The guys at Red can now breath easy.

[scotthampton]

Hmmm...yes.

This camera looks sweet. I'm in the market for a new DSLR, too. Gotta think this one over...

Can't see the movies (too many folk probably loading them). Wonder how the footage compares to the HV20. Can you mix and match and see a difference in quality, or can they work together? I'd love to use the 5D's footage to supplement the HV20's.

[sedate]

videos http://cweb.canon.jp/camera/5dmark2/index.html

[booggerg]

Hmmm...yes.

This camera looks sweet. I'm in the market for a new DSLR, too. Gotta think this one over...

Can't see the movies (too many folk probably loading them). Wonder how the footage compares to the HV20. Can you mix and match and see a difference in quality, or can they work together? I'd love to use the 5D's footage to supplement the HV20's.

I'm sure the footage will kill the HV20 in lowlight and I'm sure it'll be better all around. It sure beats HV20+a crappy DOF adapter.

[Lucasberg]

This doesn't sound good --- At 1920 x 1080 the bitrate is 38.6 Mbits/sec (about 4.8 MBytes/sec)

[Ian-T]

I'm sure the footage will kill the HV20 in lowlight and I'm sure it'll be better all around. It sure beats HV20+a crappy DOF adapter.I'm sure you are right. I mean....as a DSLR I would expect it to be better in low light footage. The footage I've seen so far is nice. Shutter control and 30p seems to be the issue for me so far......and .....the price......wow...that sucker is expensive.

[scotthampton]

I'm sure you are right. I mean....as a DSLR I would expect it to be better in low light footage. The footage I've seen so far is nice. Shutter control and 30p seems to be the issue for me so far......and .....the price......wow...that sucker is expensive.

Personally, I would pay that for the DSLR alone, as I do photography and I need the camera. As a DSLR, that baby is awesome. My current camera still amazes me, but I've outgrown it and need a pro level camera. If I were to pick it up I'd end up getting an HD cam for free. In that case, I would come out ahead of the pack, dollar-for-dollar.

I'd still need my HV20, though, as I have the sessions videoed while I photograph...

[scotthampton]

This doesn't sound good --- At 1920 x 1080 the bitrate is 38.6 Mbits/sec (about 4.8 MBytes/sec)

For the uninitiated/newbie/less informed, what's that mean?

[scotthampton]

I'm sure the footage will kill the HV20 in lowlight and I'm sure it'll be better all around. It sure beats HV20+a crappy DOF adapter.

So it'll at least be suitable to do A roll and B roll. Good...

[Lucasberg]

4.8 MBytes/sec is a very low bit rate for 1080P. Higher bit rate to start off with usually means better quality especially for moving subjects.

[Jwymon]

4.8 MBytes/sec is a very low bit rate for 1080P. Higher bit rate to start off with usually means better quality especially for moving subjects.

"HDV 1080i uses a recording data rate of 25 Mbit/s (3.125 MB/s)" according to Wikipedia. I'm not saying that I know all of these facts to be true, but it would certainly appear that 4.8MB/sec would be a higher bitrate than the HV20 is pushing out. Something around 17GB/hr instead of 13GB/hr with the HV20.

[Ian-T]

I think you are correct Jwymon.

Edit: Matter of fact....if it's using the H.264 codec then...that is a much more efficient codec than HDV AND at a higher dats rate. The quality should be superb.

[Lucasberg]

You are right , I was reading about it and they were saying that a good HD AVC cam has 12-17mb a sec and the 5D II only does 4.8 . I didn't check my source or my math and I was dissapointed for a sec, now I'm re-happy again.


Sorry for the wrong info.


Are there any downloadable videos from it yet? Will .mov file be Vegas friendly? My Aiptek Action HD .mov file have to be converted.

[Eugenia Loli-Queru]

DPReview has some info about the format it shoots: h.264 at 38mbps, full 1080/30p, PCM uncompressed audio, in MOV container. Unfortunately, that 30p is 30.00 fps instead of 29.97. This means that an editor like Vegas will resample by default, and this creates extreme ghosting. Canon should have done the right thing: selectable frame rate at 29.97, 25.00, 24.00 and 23.976.

[Ian-T]

Hmm....never thought about that. I assume it might work if you were to frameserve your edited footage to an external application like VirtualDub and set the framerate there. It's an extra step I know...but could possibly help.

[Dr. Benway]

http://www.photographybay.com/2008/09/17/canon-5d-mark-ii-announced/

I'd pick-off a used 5D for straight photography and await improvement in AVCHD and flashdrive camcorders.

[Eugenia Loli-Queru]

Ian-T, no, it's the same thing. Vegas or any other editor would frameserve the resampled version of the footage -- with the ghosting in it. And when VirtualDub receives that footage, it can't clean it up anymore.

You can only "disable resample" manually on all clips in the timeline, if you are using Vegas, or stay out of luck with most of the other editors (only AE has an equivalent option I think).

[sedate]

spec and prices http://www.dpreview.com/news/0809/08091705canon_5dmarkII.asp

[1]

That dpreview site now has two 200mb+ MOV files unprocessed (directly out of cam).

My internet connection where I am right now prohibits me to download, so I'd be curious what you guys and gals think.

http://www.dpreview.com/news/0809/08091705canon_5dmarkII.asp#samples

[mbwkrause]

http://www.robgalbraith.com/bins/multi_page.asp?cid=7-9316-9607

There is no way to override the auto audio function and it will have only a rudimentary AF for video. While that´s still better than the Nikon, it might very well be the dealbreaker for me. There is no way to record professional audio without being able to control it manually and I don´t have time for this double system stuff. The chip they put into this camera better be a killer. Otherwise it would be too bad, I was hoping to use it as a back-up for my A1.

[canuck88]

For me, I'm over the moon.

For those saying this won't be adequate, I don't believe you need an awesome camera/video camera to create stunning imagery. As a pro photographer I can take better photos with a disposable than most amateurs can with a 1DsIII. In capable and creative hands, I guarantee this new 5D will be able to produce video on par with $3k video cameras.

It's all about the operator and squeezing the potential out.

[mbwkrause]

I´m also very curious to see how people shoot with it from different angles outside in bright sun light since you can´t tilt the LCD screen. And you don´t have OIS to help you keep the camera steady.

[Eugenia Loli-Queru]

>That dpreview site now has two 200mb+ MOV files unprocessed (directly out of cam).

Mmm... not exactly. They have removed the audio, so this means that they re-processed the container (unless the camera doesn't record audio without an external mic).

Additionally, I was very unhappy to see that they didn't use any zoom and pan on their videos, so it's impossible to see any lens/focusing/exposure problems (like we can see in the Nikon samples).

Very clever of Canon to give us worthless samples.

[-Rogue5-]

Being that it's a DSLR, couldn't a firmware upgrade introduce 24p? My guess is that, because it's a still camera, it needs whole frames per second (30, not 29.97) due to the fact that it uses single DSLR images put into a .mov/h.264 wrapper... If that's the case, couldn't they just "shoot" 24 pictures a second and then have the user combine them in an NLE? For some reason I thought that's how these DSLRs were recording video...

In other words, why does it require video codec wrapping at all? Why can't they just have the camera's sensor/shutter take 24/30 .raw photos a second and then let the user sort it out (make it into video, etc.). That's how RED does it (albeit with their proprietary .r3d format).

I'd be willing to get an independent sound solution, for 1080p video shot with a Super35mm sensor on a camera that has interchangable lenses over a 3k camera with only a 2/3" sensor and attached lens (Scarlet)... I mean, both would be about $3000, but the 1080p images would/could be made much more film-like.

I'm frustrated because these are compromises we shouldn't have to make given the equivalent quality alternative technology out there... It's like all of these companies have come together (RED, Nikon, Canon) and plotted out a way to have a bunch of different products that butt-up to one another, but don't overlap in the important areas... BS.

-Rogue5-

[Braceface]

I totally agree. Its irking me too. When they tighten this up and give me a 35mm camcorder with interchangable lenses, and a super sensor, I'll sell my HV20 ÅND Letus.
I'm not liking the idea of using a DSLR for video, with the rolling shutter issues and the lack of manual controls that FEEL like a camcorder.
It would SEEM that it's all right around the corner. Then I'll say F*&ck the 35mm adaptors AND HV20s. It's getting close to what I've been looking for, which is the feel of 35mm film, good in low light, HD, and inherently shallow, yet controlable DOF with none of the GG issues and vignetting stuff. BUT will it need to vibrate? Hmm..

[Ian-T]

A firmware upgrade would certainly be possible. But I'm not sure if they will go for it... it seems more or less...we would probably need a firmware...HACK. That should be doable.

[1]

Very clever of Canon to give us worthless samples.

Worthless you say? Okay. I was hoping for a better description since I can't see them myself.
I'll take your "worthless" comment with a grain of salt for now.
:hv20-smilie77:
----------

The thing is, if I were the one in charge of what to put in the cam and what to leave out, such as different fame rates, and better Af, and more manual control; I might of done exactly the same as canon did. It would of been more foolish to come out with a cam with all the bells and whistles at its first implementation.
It would of been even more likely to have been crucified for not doing this right, or that right etc.
Oh, and this IS Canon, not Casio!

From all I can see (I can't see the big MOV files), they did a fantastic job, and anyone not satisfied with what the cam can't or can do: I'm sure the MkIII will have more options, and better control.

I'm just pleased that we're moving in the right direction!
:hv20-smilie03:

[Ian-T]

Mal...the samples actually look way better than any of the Nikon samples. I think Eugenia meant worthless in regards to the tripod shots...none were moving. It is kind of deceiving because I cloaks whatever problems the can might have. At least the Nkon samples when they first came out had a bunch of handheld shots which gave us a better idea of the rolling shutter effect. But....in a ll honesty...the vids (IMO) look great.

[1]

Okay cool, I see.
Thanks for the info. Yes, I'm pretty sure actually that the rolling shutter is going to be sucky. In that case like Eugenia mentioned: anything they leave out and don't show in their samples, is done deliberately, and probably because it ain't that good. I'd agree with that.

More options though (Nikon, Canon, Sony?..Red...); it's a good thing, and like I said; we're moving in the right direction (for me at least).

<cough> framegrab? <cough> :)

[-Rogue5-]

From all I can see (I can't see the big MOV files), they did a fantastic job, and anyone not satisfied with what the cam can't or can do: I'm sure the MkIII will have more options, and better control.

I'm just pleased that we're moving in the right direction!
:hv20-smilie03:

I mean I know the 5DmkIII or whatever will be bigger/better, but the point I was making is that the technology is available AND affordable NOW, but they're still trying to bleed us. Even worse, from a technological stand point the 5DmkII (as is) can probably do 24fps/1080p video with manual everything, but Canon isn't moving forward with that simply because they can charge more this way.

It wouldn't surprise me if the week after Scarlet is released Canon launch the 5DmkII rev.b, with 24p .raw format based video... All the 5DmkII owners don't care enough about the feature to drop another $3000 (they're photography first), but the rest of us (the people that want DOF video) have to wait for no real reason.

Anyone know how long the 5DmkII can sustain the 3.9pics/second? I know it says "continous", but I hope it doesn't mean continuous for 12mins. What I'm getting at is, 3.9fps * 21mp is far more processor intensive than 24p * 1080p (<2k?)... I drool at the thought of Super35mm shot 1080p raw footage (meaning it would be completely customizable in post just like .raw photos) and that's what we should be getting with the 5DmkII. It'd blow scarlet out of the water (despite being less than the 3k res), and broach into the F23/F900 area... complete with interchangable lenses.

Again, from a tech perspective, the only problems would should be dealing with here are figuring out what the best external audio set up is (as I wouldn't want the camera to handle that) and how to best deal with the rolling shutter (which is work-aroundable).

-Rogue5-

p.s. As for a hack, I just can't see many hackers affording a $3000 still DSLR with the intention of unlocking it... That is to say, I think it's too niche a product to actually get hacked.

[jabloomf1230]

Ian-T, no, it's the same thing. Vegas or any other editor would frameserve the resampled version of the footage -- with the ghosting in it. And when VirtualDub receives that footage, it can't clean it up anymore.

You can only "disable resample" manually on all clips in the timeline, if you are using Vegas, or stay out of luck with most of the other editors (only AE has an equivalent option I think).

There's an easy way around this according to Cineform. Just convert the 30 fps MOV file to a 29.97 fps Cineform AVI by changing the frame rate from 24 fps to 23.97 fps in HDLink. That gives you the same percentage slowdown (-0.1%). Then you just edit the file in Vegas as a 29.97 fps file.

[1]

....the week after Scarlet is released Canon launch the 5DmkII rev.b, with 24p .raw format based video...

Here we go again! Jim J as the defender of all that is good in the universe!
How -oh how- did we cope before his arrival on this earth?

Where's the shaking-head smiley...well, I guess this one will have to do: :hv20-smilie79:

I'm getting very hoha of this same issue, over and over again.

Canon sells millions upon millions of cams, and is the world leader as far as volume is concerned. It's not that unusual, if you think about it, to have a somewhat conservative approach in a new product. It needs to work well, and not be plagued with BETA problems, and workflow issues.

[Eugenia Loli-Queru]

>There's an easy way around this according to Cineform.

That is, if you have the $500 NeoHD utility that's required to do the job. That's an added cost to the product.

[1]

There's an easy way around this according to Cineform. Just convert the 30 fps MOV file to a 29.97 fps Cineform AVI by changing the frame rate from 24 fps to 23.97 fps in HDLink. That gives you the same percentage slowdown (-0.1%). Then you just edit the file in Vegas as a 29.97 fps file.


Interesting, although the numbers are a bit wrong. I think the "want" is to go from 30p to 23.97 fps. That would require some other processing, or it's more than 0.1% speed change!

Anyway, 30p is fine by me.

[jabloomf1230]

Interesting, although the numbers are a bit wrong. I think the "want" is to go from 30p to 23.97 fps. That would require some other processing, or it's more than 0.1% speed change!

Anyway, 30p is fine by me.

That is another possible "want", but the problem with Vegas is trying to edit "true" 30 fps. Vegas will edit 29.97 fps, but unless I'm missing something here, it won't edit 30 fps, without muddling up the final product. That was Eugenia's original point (I think).

[jabloomf1230]

>There's an easy way around this according to Cineform.

That is, if you have the $500 NeoHD utility that's required to do the job. That's an added cost to the product.

Oh pshaw. If someone is plush enough to want to get video out of a $3500 US DSLR, they can probably afford another $500. That isn't even the cost of a good Canon DSLR lens.:hv20-smilie84:

[-Rogue5-]

Here we go again! Jim J as the defender of all that is good in the universe!
How -oh how- did we cope before his arrival on this earth?

Where's the shaking-head smiley...well, I guess this one will have to do: :hv20-smilie79:

I'm getting very hoha of this same issue, over and over again.

Canon sells millions upon millions of cams, and is the world leader as far as volume is concerned. It's not that unusual, if you think about it, to have a somewhat conservative approach in a new product. It needs to work well, and not be plagued with BETA problems, and workflow issues.

How is capturing at 24 frames harder or more complex or less likely to work, than capturing at 30 frames? Similarly, how is running the camera with manual controls harder (for the camera to process the info) than fully auto?

It's common sense; if it can capture at 30fps at 1080p, than it can also capture at the slower (and easier on the cmos/camera/processing) to capture at 24fps and if it can capture while running completely auto there is nothing stopping it from being able to capture completely manually (except Canon). It has absolutely nothing to do with being conservative -- if anything the easier processing requirements of a slower framerate and not having to make the camera do all the focus/shutter/etc. would be less prone to bugs than making the camera do it on the fly, automatically. In other words, why would they choose 30p/1080p? That's not suitable for anything (broadcast OR filmmaking) so why include it at all in a prosumer DSLR if they're so conservative?

As for saying "a week after Scarlet"... you're completely missing my point; it could be scarlet or the D100 or even Canon's next camera that does 1080p/24fps/raw/manual control; the point is that technically the 5DmkII could do it too, right now, and it's not "stability" or "beta problems" that is preventing it from doing so; it's Canon not wanting to release it when they can bleed consumers with endless unnecessary product revisions/renditions.

I know you'd like to brush off my criticisms of the 5DmkII as a "oh, here's just another RED fanboy", but the truth is the 5DmkII has massive shortcomings with the only likely reason being that Canon hopes to sell more intermediate (and unncessary) products in the meantime. That isn't to say the 5DmkII isn't a great DSLR, just that it could do everything we'd want it to do, but Canon has choose not to. It's definitely not because it can't be done technologically and affordably, like you're implying, so what else could it be?

-Rogue5-

p.s. if someone can point to a whitepaper or give a logical/real reason WHY the 5DmkII (and it's sensor) can't capture at 24fps/1080p/RAW with manual settings than I'd recant my entire stance on the subject. But from what I understand, it can and should be able to do just that... even if it requires a bit of a work around (e.g. 24, ~2mp pictures a second that than need to be assembled via an NLE to give it motion).

[Lucasberg]

I just downloaded the 2 videos from DPreview but I had to convert them in Yamb to MP4 to get them into vegas 7 and tried the PS3 but it was a no go. Then I converted them to 1920x1072 (the closest to 1080P Vegas 7 will allow) and put them on my PS3. Even going from 220 & 270mb files to 57mb files they look really good to me.

I don't know if I'm allowed to but I'm uploading them to Vimeo for a bit if anyone wants to download a PS3 friendly version.

If anything this will be an awesome locked off tripod cam which would still be very useful I think.

[Sherb]

I downloaded the 230MB video of the bird on the branch. What a waste of bandwidth - the video does little to show off the camera's abilities and even less for its shortcomings. Anyway, the video looks great except for one really weird thing. At approx 21 sec, something "flies" across the screen in 3 frames. It goes from left to right under the branch. It forms a very blurred line about as thick as one of the twigs. If it is at the same depth as the branch, I figure it's speed at about 30mph based on the size of the bird. What is that!?! A bug? A thrown rock? Any guesses? Just curious.

[Braceface]

I downloaded the 230MB video of the bird on the branch. What a waste of bandwidth - the video does little to show off the camera's abilities and even less for its shortcomings. Anyway, the video looks great except for one really weird thing. At approx 21 sec, something "flies" across the screen in 3 frames. It goes from left to right under the branch. It forms a very blurred line about as thick as one of the twigs. If it is at the same depth as the branch, I figure it's speed at about 30mph based on the size of the bird. What is that!?! A bug? A thrown rock? Any guesses? Just curious.



Oh. That was my penis. Sorry.





..

[1]

How is capturing at 24 frames harder or more complex or less likely to work, than capturing at 30 frames?

And who says that 24P is more desirable than 30P?
It is to us, but are we the majority?
And who is 'us'?

These are all important questions. :hv20-smilie03:

[Ian-T]

Here (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O8ILR7uf4GM)is a YouTube footage of typical hand held shots.. Not much if any skew at all. This same type of shot with the D90 would have rolling shutter skew all over the place. Hmmmm....

You can kind of see skew when panning...but...for a a hand held footage it's ok so far.....I'll try and find more...

[mattias]

maybe it's just me but that clip looks like a textbook example of rolling shutter wobble. not as bad as some d90 samples i've seen, but worse than some too. it's probably the same story. it's hard to read a cmos that large that fast.

/matt

[1]

Here (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O8ILR7uf4GM)is a YouTube footage...

Wow, cool. Nice find, Ian-T!

I've added the 'quality-hack' to the URL to get a bit better quality:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O8ILR7uf4GM&fmt=18

[1]

..textbook example of rolling shutter wobble...

Then again, it's a bit too much shaking to tell, i.e. the cam operator either has an unsteady hand, or the cam is that hard to hold (for shooting video).

[Sherb]

Oh. That was my penis. Sorry.





..

Wow - I'm sorry, too. She pulled a Bobbit on you, huh? Don't worry, maybe the little guy is in heaven now.:hv20-smilie31::hv20-smilie32:

[um3k]

Oh. That was my penis. Sorry.


Glenn? Glenn Quagmire? Is that you?

[Braceface]

Then again, it's a bit too much shaking to tell, i.e. the cam operator either has an unsteady hand, or the cam is that hard to hold (for shooting video).


Oh, sorry, are we still talking about my penis?

[citidon]

my biggest question is still for citidon, which is where did he get his info, and why hasn't he posted again?

Hi,

Sorry folks. I've been on the dpreview forums lately. Man, its a war in those forums after all the speculations with the 5DMII.

I personally already pre-ordered on Amazon the day it came out. I can finally replace my 20D. But from all the specs, I think I'll hold on to my HV30 with Letus mini until we see some real video user feedback on the video quality.

From the looks of it, the night videos are AWESOME!!! Worse come to worse, I'll keep my HV30 for faster frame rate 60i (slow motion affects) and regular filming if this camera has the same horizontal wobble issue like the D90.

But I'm definitely stoked and can't wait till Nov. Looks like its going to be an early Christmas. :hv20-smilie84:

[Ian-T]

But I'm definitely stoked and can't wait till Nov. Looks like its going to be an early Christmas. :hv20-smilie84:When you get it...don't forget to post some video for us to look at. Personally...I like what I have seen so far (in terms of video quality)..but the jury is still out.

By the way...can you link us to the night footage you are talking about?

[citidon]

By the way...can you link us to the night footage you are talking about?

Samples 1, 4 and 5

http://web.canon.jp/imaging/eosd/eos5dm2/02.html#01

[Eugenia Loli-Queru]

After seeing the new sample footage, I blogged about it here:
http://eugenia.gnomefiles.org/2008/09/19/the-canon-5d-mark-ii/
I then called Canon (for USA call 1-800-828-4040, use the 3rd option) to complain about the frame rates, as this is the only thing that's keeping me from buying one. I wouldn't normally buy one, but my hubby is a prosumer photographer and he already has a 5D. He wants a new one, but I won't let him buy it if I can't use it too [with the right frame rates].

The guy on the phone at Canon was very receptive and he submitted my complain to the company's intranet feedback center. I suggest everyone do the same. It's a free call and very easy to get to the right person.

[Ian-T]

I think you are right. If we shout loud enough to get their attention we could get what we want. This cam would steal the thunder from all others out there... If they think they had a good run with the HV20...then that would pale in comparison.

That night footage looked great. Like you...the only reason why I will not break my bank account is that 30.00 frames per second. That was a terrible idea.

[kmlo1984]

Hi there
I think being in 30P is just a matter of harder to edit with most software. but indeed, many application might able to convert frame rate nicely. either steal frames out or merge frames.
or simply edit as 30P in offline ( virtualdub can say what FPS u want)

vegas has auto sampling fps too,Premiere and FCP i m not sure.

My concern is more on MPEG4, what i pay is 2x as nikon and if the both cameras quality sucks, why bother to buy now. wait and see.

anyone has done HDMI out capture in uncompress or Mjpeg just like HV20/30?
of course with the display turn off.

thanks
KM LO

[Dr. Benway]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ns1TYN4mPF0&feature=related

[kmlo1984]

here is the demo on After effect on 30FPS to 24P

http://www.videocopilot.net/tutorial/frame_rate_converter/

[booggerg]

http://blog.vincentlaforet.com/2008/09/20/something-very-interesting-is-comingboth-to-this-blog-and-to-our-industry/

For anyone not shooting long takes, why would anyone NOT get something like this?

[Duke]

For anyone not shooting long takes, why would anyone NOT get something like this?

Thanks, nice article. Great images. LOOK AT THAT DOF EFFECT!

The lack of other frame rates is my biggest concern. Blended frame to create different frame rates always seems to introduce motion artifacts whenever I've tried it.

I'm with Eugenia, let's call Canon for a firmware change. It can't hurt.

[Ian-T]

Personally...this can put a big dent in the Scarlet thing-a-ma-jig. IMO it has way more +'s than Scarlet...especially if the final video is as good as I believe it to be.

- Low Light Footage
- Dynamic Range
- Whatever Friggin Canon Lens you would like to use...means no more lens adapters
- Video already smokes the D90
- HDMI (the jury is still out on this one)

Even if RED comes out with their DSLR killer...you know...in your heart of hearts...that it's probably 2 years out...AT LEAST. In the mean time..from all of the samples I've seen so far...you can make some really beautiful pictures with this new..."Monster." I wish I could afford one..but hey. Canon should stop making their camcorders the way they are making them....and start incorporating their DSLR chips in to them from now on... They have been kicking some serious..A$$ lately....no need to stop now. I'm sorry....but Red had a chance of doing this first... Scarlet is no longer at the forefront of my mind. I really hope they change the specs on the Scarlet....but...I'm afraid that's a fat chance.

Man....the images on this cam are beautiful. Maybe one could buy a Scarlet and this together...Scarlet for the slow motion...and this for everything else.....Now ya'll wpuld have to excuse....I gotta go play LOTTO.

[booggerg]

leaked video.. looks great.. http://es.youtube.com/watch?v=XggG7iFfoCk&eurl=http://gizmodo.com/5052767/a-taste-of-the-canon-5d-mark-iis-mindblowing-full-hd-video

[Ian-T]

....how...the heck did they stabilize some of those shots...?? I hate YouTube...

[Duke]

- HDMI (the jury is still out on this one)


On the Nikon the HDMI signal was bastardized to 720p, but I haven't heard anything negative about the Canon HDMI, have you? Since they already have a pure True HD signal I would think it would just output untouched through a v1.3 HDMI transmitter. And v1.3 handles a higher bit rate!

[Ian-T]

Since they already have a pure True HD signal I would think it would just output untouched through a v1.3 HDMI transmitter. And v1.3 handles a higher bit rate!
I have not heard anything as yet...but my thinking is along the same a yours in this regard. It's a DSLR...you would think (though Nikon went another route). But since Canon has been in the Video cam game for AEONS...and they did what they did with the HV20 (untouched over HDMI).....I don't see why not. Man...i just hope so....

Maybe Cineform could come up with a way to convert the Canon's 30.00 fps to 23.98.....hmmm

[Ian-T]

I'd also expect Canon to be releasing some new super sharp lenses that could take better advantage of this new 21 Mega Pixels. That's some crazy resolution.

[Duke]

I have not heard anything as yet...but my thinking is along the same a yours in this regard. It's a DSLR...you would think (though Nikon went another route). But since Canon has been in the Video cam game for AEONS...and they did what they did with the HV20 (untouched over HDMI).....I don't see why not. Man...i just hope so....

Maybe Cineform could come up with a way to convert the Canon's 30.00 fps to 23.98.....hmmm

Reds only output 720 over the HDMI, which I always thought was strange. Their high output is hard to focus anyway, why not give yourself a fast way to double check like 1920 output at least.

[dcloud]

if they did do the 24p update, would it hurt their line ups of HDVs? (xlh1a, xha1) they really have nothing better to offer on the HD prosumer right now.

I would want to see an update but it seems unlikely

[DrDave]

This cam looks like a big step up in technology--maybe we have to wait for a firmware update, but out of the box it looks like the low low light champion. I'm curious what the cineform conversion would look like, if someone could post a sample that would be appreciated.

[booggerg]

DPReview has some info about the format it shoots: h.264 at 38mbps, full 1080/30p, PCM uncompressed audio, in MOV container. Unfortunately, that 30p is 30.00 fps instead of 29.97. This means that an editor like Vegas will resample by default, and this creates extreme ghosting. Canon should have done the right thing: selectable frame rate at 29.97, 25.00, 24.00 and 23.976.

I don't follow. Why would Vegas re sample a 30.00fps clip?

[um3k]

Because video is supposed to be 29.97fps.

[booggerg]

Because video is supposed to be 29.97fps.

60i is 29.97fps.. 30P is 30fps by definition.. (frames per second)

[Duke]

I'd also expect Canon to be releasing some new super sharp lenses that could take better advantage of this new 21 Mega Pixels. That's some crazy resolution.

It's kind of funny. Over at Scarletuser they are sort of going crazy. They can't really compare the 5D MII to the Scarlet so they're resorting to comparing it to the Red One. That's a $34,000 camera and lens to a $3,500 camera and lens!

The sad thing for them is the Canon has better light senstivity, cheaper CF cards, and great DOF control. At the same time it has interchangable lenses the Scarlet doesn't have.

Now, the Red products have variable frame rates and higher resolution videos and other nice features, but I think the real religiously fanatic Scarlet supporters are scared because the Scarlet won't be the be all and end all they've been touting. Worse yet the cameras haven't even been released yet that will be competing with the Scarlet when it's actually released.

(Not that the Scarlet won't be a good camera, but it's certainly not going to win every category of features.)

[Duke]

60i is 29.97fps.. 30P is 30fps by definition.. (frames per second)

I think he means NTSC is 29.97 fps, which will cause just enough time difference to potentially be a problem. I don't have an HV30, hasn't anyone else tried to render it to 29.97 before?

[Goose]

It's kind of funny. Over at Scarletuser they are sort of going crazy. They can't really compare the 5D MII to the Scarlet so they're resorting to comparing it to the Red One. That's a $34,000 camera and lens to a $3,500 camera and lens!

The sad thing for them is the Canon has better light senstivity, cheaper CF cards, and great DOF control. At the same time it has interchangable lenses the Scarlet doesn't have.

Now, the Red products have variable frame rates and higher resolution videos and other nice features, but I think the real religiously fanatic Scarlet supporters are scared because the Scarlet won't be the be all and end all they've been touting. Worse yet the cameras haven't even been released yet that will be competing with the Scarlet when it's actually released.

(Not that the Scarlet won't be a good camera, but it's certainly not going to win every category of features.)

I think the key things (all significant) with RED Scarlet over the 5d are:

frame rate - up to 180fps
Skew/rolling shutter - fast read reset sensor 9yet to be seen on 5d)
RAW - the flexability and quality of redcode versus 8bit H.264

[booggerg]

I think the key things (all significant) with RED Scarlet over the 5d are:

frame rate - up to 180fps
Skew/rolling shutter - fast read reset sensor 9yet to be seen on 5d)
RAW - the flexability and quality of redcode versus 8bit H.264

Gotta give those red fanbois credit.. all that dedication on an imaginary camera.

Just look at all the scarlet discussions there!

[Duke]

I think the key things (all significant) with RED Scarlet over the 5d are:

frame rate - up to 180fps

Does it go full resolution at the higher frame rates? I don't think we know yet, but it may be.


Skew/rolling shutter - fast read reset sensor yet to be seen on 5d

The clips I saw on the 5D seemed better than on the Nikon, but Scarlet has a CMOS chip too. We don't know if it will have any rolling shutter artifacts or not. No one has said it has a global shutter, so it could even be worse or it could be better. I'd sure like to see clips. I don't think you can cite as an advantage something you're not sure about. My guess is that it will have to be planned around just as with any CMOS camera, but we're both speculating.


RAW - the flexability and quality of redcode versus 8bit H.264

It should be an advantage, but it forces you to use expensive high speed CF cards rather than cheaper type 1, or 2 cards. Also, the 5D has HDMI out. We should be able to capture totally uncompressed in HDMI. H.264 compression takes a little horse power to edit easily, but so does Red RAW. On the other hand HDMI capture doesn't take a fast CPU at all, only a fast array of drives.

[Eugenia Loli-Queru]

There's an easy way around this according to Cineform. Just convert the 30 fps MOV file to a 29.97 fps Cineform AVI by changing the frame rate from 24 fps to 23.97 fps in HDLink. That gives you the same percentage slowdown (-0.1%). Then you just edit the file in Vegas as a 29.97 fps file.

Are you sure that this won't end up being 24p instead of 30p? In any way, Cineform doesn't support the MOV files that Canon 5D-MII spits out. I just tried it with the latest version of NeoHD.

[mattias]

60i is 29.97fps.. 30P is 30fps by definition.. (frames per second)
no it's not. it can be both, most often the former. two of the most commonly used hd formats, hdv and hdcam, both lack 1080p at 30 fps but use 29.97 and yes, it's still called 30p just as 23.976p is called 24p. where did you find your definition? it's not even true mathematically since 30 only has one value digit and with that tolerance 30=29.97.

/matt

[booggerg]

no it's not. it can be both, most often the former. two of the most commonly used hd formats, hdv and hdcam, both lack 1080p at 30 fps but use 29.97 and yes, it's still called 30p just as 23.976p is called 24p. where did you find your definition? it's not even true mathematically since 30 only has one value digit and with that tolerance 30=29.97.

/matt

No only when 30p is written to tape using NTSC format is it then converted to 29.97fps

[jabloomf1230]

Are you sure that this won't end up being 24p instead of 30p? In any way, Cineform doesn't support the MOV files that Canon 5D-MII spits out. I just tried it with the latest version of NeoHD.

No, it's a "trick". Cineform presently has no 30 fps to 29.97 fps conversion option, so the only way of getting a 0.1% slowdown is to select 24 fps to 23.967 fps.

You should post the MOV file issue on the Cineform message board. Since MOV is just the container, the problem is likely with the h.264 codec and the high bit rate. Will any media player play the file properly? I assume that QT plays it okay.

[Eugenia Loli-Queru]

No, it's a "trick". Cineform presently has no 30 fps to 29.97 fps conversion option, so the only way of getting a 0.1% slowdown is to select 24 fps to 23.967 fps.

This trick doesn't work. I tried it with another 30.00 fps file, and it creates 30.00 files too, as the original file was. The option was selected in the prefs. But it didn't re-time.


You should post the MOV file issue on the Cineform message board. Since MOV is just the container, the problem is likely with the h.264 codec and the high bit rate. Will any media player play the file properly? I assume that QT plays it okay.

Yes, Quicktime plays it. Cineform says that it doesn't support the format, and when I changed the MOV to MP4 (I re-wrapped it, so CoreAVC can read it instead of Quicktime and feed it to Cineform), Cineform crashed.

In all honesty, Cineform's tools are not ready for the 5D files.

On a similar topic, I blog posted about how one would go about editing these files with Vegas, as they are extremely slow: http://eugenia.gnomefiles.org/2008/09/21/vegas-workflow-with-the-5d-markii/

[drouthou]

I snagged the first Canon demo video off of dpreview, converted it from MOV to AVI uncompressed, used the video motion interpolater MotionPerfect (http://www.goodervideo.com/products/MP.html) from Gooder Video (http://www.goodervideo.com) to convert from 30p to 24p in highest quality mode (the demo only allows 15 seconds and inserts a watermark), then compressed both down to smaller file sizes. The results look pretty good on the 24p video, even when viewing frame by frame -- no ghosting, smearing, or juddering:

30p to 24p motion interpolation (http://www.mediafire.com/?sharekey=b8cdf47f1e774db0d2db6fb9a8902bda)

Of course this isn't a worst case test, but for the simple conversion I did, it's pretty impressive.

[Duke]

Of course this isn't a worst case test, but for the simple conversion I did, it's pretty impressive.

I had a look at both and must admit that both clips look great. Considering the cars in motion as well as plant life moving, I didn't notice any judder or smear. The video looked impressive. Too bad it's an extra program and two steps, but at least we know it works. I wonder how Avisynth, etc does at this. Has anyone tried it?

[mattias]

No only when 30p is written to tape using NTSC format is it then converted to 29.97fps
why do you make these things up? are you trolling for a fight or do you get off on misleading people? if you know what you're talking about please share, if you don't just shut the fcuk up, ok?

/matt

[Goose]

Does it go full resolution at the higher frame rates? I don't think we know yet, but it may be.


The clips I saw on the 5D seemed better than on the Nikon, but Scarlet has a CMOS chip too. We don't know if it will have any rolling shutter artifacts or not. No one has said it has a global shutter, so it could even be worse or it could be better. I'd sure like to see clips. I don't think you can cite as an advantage something you're not sure about. My guess is that it will have to be planned around just as with any CMOS camera, but we're both speculating.

It should be an advantage, but it forces you to use expensive high speed CF cards rather than cheaper type 1, or 2 cards. Also, the 5D has HDMI out. We should be able to capture totally uncompressed in HDMI. H.264 compression takes a little horse power to edit easily, but so does Red RAW. On the other hand HDMI capture doesn't take a fast CPU at all, only a fast array of drives.

Yes it has been conformed 3K at 120fps and 3K (unlimited) at 180fps for a 5 sec burst

Red have developed a sensor with the fastes read/reset times so although there is minimal skew on the red one it is much better than say the hv20. The scarlet will have a new sensor with even faster read/reset values. The Nikon camos in the D90 is great for stills but shocking for video.

There is nothing to suggest that we will be able to take an uncompressed output from the 5d - would be great though. Good point about the CF cards but I guess you can't have your cake an eat it. One other thing though - there is a possibility that scarlett may have an SSD drive option...

[Duke]

Red have developed a sensor with the fastes read/reset times so although there is minimal skew on the red one it is much better than say the hv20. The scarlet will have a new sensor with even faster read/reset values. The Nikon camos in the D90 is great for stills but shocking for video.

We're not comparing it to the D90 or a $600 HV20 though. The general concencous is no one would use the D90 for serious video work. Yes, the Red One does show some skew, and yes you are comparing the $34,000 camera to the $3,500 camera again.

The 5D appears to show less skew than the D90. If Red increases the sensor size on the Scarlet for low light (they said they are changing everything) the speed of the mysterium will be slower than now just as a function of size.


There is nothing to suggest that we will be able to take an uncompressed output from the 5d - would be great though.

Canon did it on the HV20, HV30 and others. It's actually easier for them to do that than compress it, since they merely need to tap the signal rather than add circuits, so there is no reason why not.

The next year will be interesting.

[mattias]

The general concencous is no one would use the D90 for serious video work
i think you're mistaken. i for one do not agree and i know many others who don't either. if we don't see dozens of d90 rock videos on mtv and myspace in a few months for example i'll eat my sweaty yankees cap. i'll be responsible for a couple of them myself and i also have other "serious" projects in the works. of course i'm not a videomaker but a filmmaker, so i'm used to working with a tiny feature set, manual control, post quirks, and 5 minutes is *more* than a roll of 4-perf 35mm, while i can totally see that a wedding or events videographer would never use it for their "serious" work.

/matt

[Ian-T]

mattias...you must own a lot of Nikon glass.

Hopefully Nikon will come up with some sort of firmware update to increase the quality of the video. For taking stills that cam is excellent…but IMO the video quality (at least from what I have seen so far) does not compare to what we’ve been seeing from the Canon. But never mind…it is still good video…especially if you tame the rolling shutter issues. I’d be a little hesitant to use this for professional shoots…but I’m no pro…and it does not mean it can’t be done. For short flicks however…I’d go to town with it.

I like both cameras…especially the outlook of the industry as a whole…I mean…this is the start of something new…and it will only get better.

Red who….???

[mattias]

i'm not saying the nikon is better than the canon. i do own a lot of nikon glass but what i'm saying above holds for both cameras. the nikon has 24p and cost one third as much though, if i want the best quality and want to pay for it i rent a red one or buy a few rolls of 5201.

the panasonic lumix g looks great. if the video quality is at least as good as their pocket cameras but with "almost" 35mm dof and interchangeable lenses it's a winner. will probably be the cheapest of the three too.

http://www.letsgodigital.org/en/20106/panasonic-lumix-g/

/matt

[Ian-T]

Whoa!!! This is getting crazy...in a good way...

[jabloomf1230]

[quote=Eugenia Loli-Queru;134975
In all honesty, Cineform's tools are not ready for the 5D files.
[/quote]

You are probably right, although they claim it works. I was only pointing out a way to handle the 30 fps issue. See what happens with the MOV file from here (http://88.191.20.67/video/akiba/5D-MarkII-sample-pix-video.zip).

Are you using the video right out of the 5D or from an online download of a MOV file?

[Eugenia Loli-Queru]

I am using the MOV file from DPReview. When I use the mov file with HDLink as "administrator" on my Vista64 PC, HDLink crashes. When I use it as "eugenia", it says "format not supported" (all cineform components are registered btw and CoreAVC/Haali/Quicktime are installed).

When I re-wrap the MOV to MP4 (no re-encoding, I do that in order to force CoreAVC to feed Cineform the video instead of Quicktime), "eugenia" crashes the same way as "admin's" MOV effort crashes. It only works when I rename the .mp4 to .mp4x (it seems that Cineform has an MP4 container bug). Unfortunately, CoreAVC has a bug too, and it decodes the 5D MP4 files with a BLACK LINE under the video!

So in my opinion, there's nothing to be done right now to get this working properly but to do the conversion via Vegas instead (from MOV to AVI), without any rate conversion.

[booggerg]

5D2 review from working professionals

http://vimeo.com/1790529?pg=embed&sec=1790529&hd=1

[jabloomf1230]

@Eugenia,

Take a look here (http://www.dvinfo.net//conf/showthread.php?p=940992#post940992).

Apparently, some people have got it to work (and with the frame rate change), but David Newman from Cineform has confirmed that the 5D MOV --> CFHD AVI conversion doesn't work properly.

J

[jabloomf1230]

Here's another interesting tidbit. If you use NEO HDV with the the frame rate change from 24 fps to 23.967, resize to 1440 X 1080 and output to MOV, it works perfectly. Vegas recognizes the original file as 30 fps and the converted Cineform MOV file as 29.97 fps.

[Ian-T]

Ha ha ha....I just caught this from here (http://zacuto.zenfolio.com/p408746338/h2b63f750#h222aa462). Zacuto is already planning for the D90 and Canon 5D Mll. This is actually a D90 sitting on top....

http://hv20.info/yopu/D90 ON ROIDS.bmp

[Lucasberg]

That video from vincentlaforet.com is up here http://www.usa.canon.com/dlc/controller?act=GetArticleAct&articleID=2086

The chopper shot is sweet. It looks really good but its kind of hard to tell full quality because it's only 1/4 1080P.

The ISO noise looks spectacular, by that I mean not there.

[David]

Wow! That stuff looks great. Some of those images are really beautiful. Canon definitely trumps the Nikon on this one.

[Eugenia Loli-Queru]

>Apparently, some people have got it to work (and with the frame rate change), but David Newman from Cineform has confirmed that the 5D MOV --> CFHD AVI conversion doesn't work properly.

I am already emailing with David since yesterday. As I said, CoreAVC and Cineform have bugs. Some people have made it work with ffdshow, but ffdshow's codecs are not as precise as CoreAVC's or Quicktime's when it comes to AVC.

>If you use NEO HDV resize to 1440 X 1080 and output to MOV,

That's a crime. :-)
Not only because 1440 is not the full res (I got NeoHD btw), but because anything in the MOV container doesn't run as fast on Vegas as AVI does.

>Wow! That stuff looks great.

I downloaded 340 MBs of stuff earlier, as linked from this thread, and the video I saw in there was terrible. The kind of resizing going on from the 6k sensor image to 2k, was real bad. There were color sparkles everywhere and the exposure/contrast was going haywire. If the 5D ships with that kind of problem, it's only usable under very controllable situations.

[booggerg]

[I]
>Wow! That stuff looks great.

I downloaded 340 MBs of stuff earlier, as linked from this thread, and the video I saw in there was terrible. The kind of resizing going on from the 6k sensor image to 2k, was real bad. There were color sparkles everywhere and the exposure/contrast was going haywire. If the 5D ships with that kind of problem, it's only usable under very controllable situations.

Exposure going haywire? where? I didn't see any.. Laforet shot everything in AUTO. He said he couldn't figure out how to manually lock it down.. I say, for AUTO, the exposure result is VERY good.

[booggerg]

The making of is online now.

http://blog.vincentlaforet.com/

[jarabmx]

http://www.usa.canon.com/dlc/controller?act=GetArticleAct&articleID=2086


Your thoughts?

I think it lacks 24p a lot. Lovely image quality but served at bad framerate. Shame.

Eugenia, what about using that "professional music videos" procedure you used few times. Would it help?

[kmlo1984]

hi i think technically its just challenging , but not much to worry about
if u have a good story and great viusal and sound.

i can 99% sure that no audiences can find out that u change from 30p to 24p. if u have digital format aceept this fps that i think may not even need to covert to 24P.

KM LO

[Ian-T]

I thought it looked good. However...like Stu M. mentioned, there were moments that really screamed video. I can’t believe how ‘clean’ it looks…no noise etc. While watching I couldn’t help but be reminded of some of the more “famous” HV20 videos…you remember….the helicopter wobble…and notorious wobbly car footage from just about everywhere… So I was really impressed to see the helicopter and car mounted shots in this current video. Even when the guy jammed on his brakes….the picture didn’t turn ugly. So it seems the usual issues of rolling shutter are not as bad in this cam.

[Duke]

" Originally Posted by Eugenia Loli-Queru View Post
[i]
>Wow! That stuff looks great.

I downloaded 340 MBs of stuff earlier, as linked from this thread, and the video I saw in there was terrible. The kind of resizing going on from the 6k sensor image to 2k, was real bad. There were color sparkles everywhere and the exposure/contrast was going haywire. If the 5D ships with that kind of problem, it's only usable under very controllable situations."


Exposure going haywire? where? I didn't see any.. Laforet shot everything in AUTO. He said he couldn't figure out how to manually lock it down.. I say, for AUTO, the exposure result is VERY good.

I think Eugenia was refering to the Nikon D90 footage, which was sometimes bad and a different sized sensor. The early D90 footage had bad exposure issues.

[booggerg]

If you watch the making of video, Vincent used a Kenyon Gyro for all the hand held shots...

[Braceface]

If I want this new Canon, I'll be able to get it. My wife has a 5D with some VERY expensive lenses, so it wont take much to get her to go joint on it. It'll be " ours " haha.

[jabloomf1230]

>If you use NEO HDV resize to 1440 X 1080 and output to MOV,

That's a crime. :-)
Not only because 1440 is not the full res (I got NeoHD btw), but because anything in the MOV container doesn't run as fast on Vegas as AVI does.



I understood from your posts that you have NEO HD, which of course is the only way to get 1920 X 1080. I was just pointing out that it can be made to work with NEO HDV, which of course makes no sense to me. Keep in mind here, I only got involved with this thread to point out the 30 fps --> 29.97 fps "trick" and not to explain how Cineform software works or doesn't work. I'm only a Cineform customer, just like you are.

After fiddling with GraphEdit, I beleive that Nero and not QT is demuxing and decoding the MOV files for HDLink on my computer ( I don't have ffdshow installed) . BTW, I originally only tested the MOV output option, but NEO HDV will also produce AVI files with the proper slowdown. Unfortunately, the video is upside down, backwards and there is no audio. How about that!

I'd say that either Cineform or Canon have their work cut out for themselves. I hope you didn't buy that D5 MKII just yet.:hv20-smilie02:

[Shadow_7]

I rather like what I see.

http://downloads.canon.com/CDLC/Reverie_Final_Cut2_midres.m4v

Except for the price tag. Does it suffer from the same 5 minute limit as other DSLR type cams? It seems very RED-ish without the costs, or resolution. But nice on that clip. Although fairly obvious that additional lighting was used in addition to special lenses.

[Ian-T]

I believe it has a 12 minute filming capability.

[kosulin]

The 5D Mark II is really a hot topic. Just look what Vinc Laforet managed to do with it:
http://www.usa.canon.com/dlc/controller?act=GetArticleAct&articleID=2086
This is behind the scenes movie:
http://vincentlaforet.smugmug.com/gallery/6021407_xEg87/1/#378608891_Jd2CT-A-LB
He had it for weekend, and spent a total budget of $5000 (2 grands for a helicopter ride alone).
Here is his blog with details:
http://blog.vincentlaforet.com/
This is what a Pulitzer honoree photographer can make with his first movie ever.

[Duke]

I rather like what I see.

http://downloads.canon.com/CDLC/Reverie_Final_Cut2_midres.m4v

Except for the price tag. Does it suffer from the same 5 minute limit as other DSLR type cams? It seems very RED-ish without the costs, or resolution. But nice on that clip. Although fairly obvious that additional lighting was used in addition to special lenses.

I couldn't connect to that link, but if it's the ones from Vincent L., he said he used one rim light to bring out the hair. That's sort of the point. The Red is 300-500 iso. The 5D is 25600 iso! With the size of that sensor and a 21 megapixel sensor reduced to 1920 resolution, it has way better low light capabilities than the Red.

But then you're back to comparing the $34,000 Red + Lens, etc. to the $3,500 D5 plus lens (as offered by B&H (http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/583987-REG/Canon_2764B004_EOS_5D_Mark_II.html)). You guys need to quit doing that. If the Red One can't beat this camera the Red company is in real trouble.

Now comparing it to the Scarlet, which is in the 5D's price range, the Scarlet has a 3k image, but only about a 2.2k resolution (check on scarlet user) which most people will use at 2k. 1920 and 2k are only 80 pixels different, 40 on a side. You 'd never notice so you can't really argue resolution compared to the Scarlet. Plus it whomps the Scarlet up and down on stills.

Since some people have asked it's 12 minutes at at time, but you can keep hitting the record button. Type 1 and 2 CF cards are cheap. Other than events, do you ever need even a 12 minute clip?

Does the Scarlet record 12 minutes, less at higher frame rates? For some reason 5 minutes or less comes to mind. Someone should check.

If you have Canon EF glass the body is only $2,600, less than Scarlet or an Xh-A1. Even the package with the 24-105 zoom is only $3,500 so I don't know what you're complaining about the price. The Scarlet may end up being more than that. We don't know yet.

Really the complaints for the 5D are:
No other frame rates, only 30 fps.
No XLR mic inputs, but it does have stereo 1/8" mic input.

[kosulin]

I believe it has a 12 minute filming capability.

12 min per continuous HD clip is limitation imposed by FAT32 (maximum file size of 4GB).

[dcloud]

if you checked the BTS, theres a scene where the guy is just lit by a single computer monitor. astounding light sensitivity.

and since it captures (5,616 x 3,744 pixels) then down rez to 1080, anything grainy (6400iso) on the (5,616 x 3,744 pixels) level would be averaged when it gets down rez to 1080 which equals to greater light sensitivity.

edit:
browsing around different forums is really drying my brain. a lot of negativity and condascending a-holes.

[Hans Dick]

Take a look at this video

Canon Digital Learning Center - Sample Video: EOS 5D Mark II

[Hans Dick]

This may take you the video

http://www.usa.canon.com/dlc/controller?act=GetArticleAct&articleID=2086

[1]

1920 and 2k are only 80 pixels different...

I agree totally, Duke. I'm looking at getting the 5D MKII I think.
On a technicality; the 2k spec calls for 2048 pixels wide, so a tiny little more than you mention above.

[1]

http://downloads.canon.com/CDLC/Reverie_Final_Cut2_midres.m4v

Except for the price tag....


That looks SH!THOT for a $2600 cam!!!

[twoneil]

I'm scrapping my adapter business. Where can I get this camera NOW? Gimme! Gimme!!
1920x1080 is good enough for me.

[dcloud]

id buy it when 24p is implemented through update or something :)

[Shadow_7]

That looks SH!THOT for a $2600 cam!!!

I wouldn't pay that price for it. And most online sources I saw were only $1,999-ish. I need to shoot 15-20 minute clips at a time, for basically 3 hour continuous events. But it does seem to overcome a few issues relative to low light. No smear, and fairly noiseless. Granted that most of that is the extras used and the skill of the user. And maybe even some manipulation in post.

It's not perfect, i.e. the yellow daisies seem to smear into a single yellow mass. And if it were truly a camcorder, and not a 12MP camera. I'd expect more. Although some camcorders in the $4K+ range seem to fall short of this thing. Not that I have any experience with any of them.

[Ian-T]

All of a sudden....my HV20 videos are startingh to look like standard definition....especially compared to that video.

[saintlobak]

All of a sudden....my HV20 videos are startingh to look like standard definition....especially compared to that video.

And that really hurts :(

[1]

And most online sources I saw were only $1,999-ish.

Oh yeah? Like where, for instance?

[Duke]

I agree totally, Duke. I'm looking at getting the 5D MKII I think.
On a technicality; the 2k spec calls for 2048 pixels wide, so a tiny little more than you mention above.

Even at that it's 3% difference on each side, 6% overall.

[Duke]

It's not perfect

Nothing in life is perfect.

And if it were truly a camcorder, and not a 12MP camera. I'd expect more.

Since it's pretty much the best on the market at this point in time, what more would you expect. Maybe longer recording time? The Scarlet has the same issue, and it's specialized CF cards cost MUCH more.

I wouldn't pay that price for it.

I don't think you're really in the market for a video camera. This is in the low price range for a prosumer video camera. The XH-G1 is twice as much, as is the PMW-EX1, and the 5D beats their pictures.

If you're seeing it for $1,999 ish it's at the bait and switch places, probably in Brooklyn, NY.

If you need the longer clips it may not be the camera for you. However, you can always his the record button later. The limitation is not the the CF size, merely the file size. Stick a 32 gig CF card and you have room for ~2 hours at high quality. They now make 100 gig CF cards.

Granted that most of that is the extras used and the skill of the user.

Operator skill is important with any camera. If you can't compose an image the camera doesn't help.

Although some camcorders in the $4K+ range seem to fall short of this thing. Not that I have any experience with any of them.

At this point in time all the $4k range cameras fall short of this. Scarlet may do better next year. Canon's newest video offering may do better, but as of right now this is superior technology.

And maybe even some manipulation in post.

If you're talking about Vincent Laforte's pictures, he said he did no post manipulation, and that those aren't even the photo images, merely frame grabs from the video.

{You're comments sound a bit like the sour grapes from the fan boys at scarletuser, but maybe not if you have no experience with prosumer cameras as you say.}

[kosulin]

Folks, 5D Mark II does not have sophisticated controls for video capture. I don't think it even has zebra. And while 24p could be done with firmware upgrade, I doubt Canon will do this. And by the way, it does not shoot NTSC 30p (29.97) footage. It delivers 30.00fps. Do not expect PAL 25p, also. But the low light quality is awesome, and it looks like the rolling shutter issue is under control. There is a hope, by the way, that instead of writing to CF it can transfer uncompressed footage through HDMI. This would be a killer feature, IMHO.

[mattias]

if you know what you're doing that's pretty much what you'll get with the hv as well, excet for the dof. the keywords are lighting and framing. raise your hand those of you who think comparing quality by looking at footage from a pulitzer price photographer with a pro crew from one camera and your own pulling focus between flowers in your garden from the other is a good idea!?! some shots show considerable noise and some suffer from the typical video look.

(it does look fantastic but not necessarily better than high end hdv cameras for example)

/matt

[Shadow_7]

You're comments sound a bit like the sour grapes from the fan boys at scarletuser, but maybe not if you have no experience with prosumer cameras as you say.

Pretty much everything I say sounds like sour grapes. It's my persona of sorts. A side effect of my environment for all intents and purposes. I said I like it. That's about as unsour as I get.

How am I not to sound skeptical. It says "Full HD Video capture at 1920 x 1080 resolution for up to 4GB per clip" but it list no specs other than that like, the frames per second, or how much time == 4GB, raw or codec based? And it's ambiguous as to whether it can only do video by capturing from the HDMI out. Or if it's a function of the camera itself. Sure, it might be the best out. But I can't tell if it shoots 3.9fps video or 30fps video, and other functions by looking at the specs and features.

I like the clip, but it's fairly obvious that it's not using just a stock camera. So I still have no idea what the camera can and cannot do. But it does seem to have a lot of potential.

[1]

...it's fairly obvious that it's not using just a stock camera.

For sure there was also a good eye, some awesome lenses, good lighting, a good crew, and some other nifty gadgets involved. You're right about that.

[dcloud]

ever shot on a dslr before? then imagine that + video.

theres a metering function on a dslr.
theres also a histogram in viewing photos
(plus you can go old school with a light meter!)

you may need a zebra but I'd take all of its current features (plus 24p) without the zebra.

EDIT:
based on the bts and the video im seeing, they used very little light.

[kosulin]

Pretty much everything I say sounds like sour grapes. It's my persona of sorts. A side effect of my environment for all intents and purposes. I said I like it. That's about as unsour as I get.

How am I not to sound skeptical. It says "Full HD Video capture at 1920 x 1080 resolution for up to 4GB per clip" but it list no specs other than that like, the frames per second, or how much time == 4GB, raw or codec based? And it's ambiguous as to whether it can only do video by capturing from the HDMI out. Or if it's a function of the camera itself. Sure, it might be the best out. But I can't tell if it shoots 3.9fps video or 30fps video, and other functions by looking at the specs and features.

I like the clip, but it's fairly obvious that it's not using just a stock camera. So I still have no idea what the camera can and cannot do. But it does seem to have a lot of potential.

You could find answers to most of your questions easily:
H.264 in QuckTime .mov wrapper.
30.00fps progressive.
1920x1080 (38.6 Mb/sec) up to 12 min per clip.
640 x 480 (17.3 Mb/sec) up to 24 min per clip.
Audio: PCM, 44.1kHz, 192 kb/sec.

To find out what was in use for the clip, you can go and read the blog. Alll details are there. Light, gyro stabilizers, etc. You will be surprised.

[kosulin]

ever shot on a dslr before? then imagine that + video.

theres a metering function on a dslr.
theres also a histogram in viewing photos
(plus you can go old school with a light meter!)

you may need a zebra but I'd take all of its current features (plus 24p) without the zebra.

I do not think a histogram is available in video mode. Mirror is up, and no access to exposure sensor. I do some kind of documentaries in harsh lightning conditions, and zebra would be a great addition for me. I do not need 24p and already pre-ordered the camera. Fortunately, I have a bunch of L glass (except 16-35).

[Duke]

And it's ambiguous as to whether it can only do video by capturing from the HDMI out.

It records video separately to CF cards. It also has HDMI out. At this point we don't know if the HMDI out is full HD and the color encoding.


But I can't tell if it shoots 3.9fps video or 30fps video, and other functions by looking at the specs and features.

The 3.9fps is full rez photography (i.e. series of stills). The video is full HD 30p.

[Duke]

if you know what you're doing that's pretty much what you'll get with the hv as well, except for the dof.

Matt,

Generally many of us are happy with the images we get with our HV20's (especially from HDMI direct capture) except the DOF and low light capabilities, and that's just what this gives us.

The 30p frame rate is always going to make motion seem like video though.

Duke

[Braceface]

Is this camera out yet?

[twoneil]

OMG, I just pre-ordered mine.

I don't understand one thing....is there a difference between 29.97 & 30fps?
and why would we prefer 29.97 over the 30fps?

[mattias]

they used very little light.
the amount of lighting isn't the point, it's the quality and control of it. the video is extremely lit in my opinion. this is not what you get just pressing rec no matter what camera, including 35mm film.

/matt

[kosulin]

OMG, I just pre-ordered mine.

I don't understand one thing....is there a difference between 29.97 & 30fps?
and why would we prefer 29.97 over the 30fps?

As I know, 29.97 is part of NTSC standard and matters only for SDTV and standard DVD creation. 30.00 is part of HDTV. The issue might be in re-encoding from 30.00 to 29.97 to burn a standard DVD. The same with PAL 23.98.
This might help:
http://www.paradiso-design.net/videostandards_en.html

[kosulin]

the amount of lighting isn't the point, it's the quality and control of it. the video is extremely lit in my opinion. this is not what you get just pressing rec no matter what camera, including 35mm film.

/matt

Vincent is a Pro in street shooting. He got Pulitzer for 9/11 coverage. He knows how to get the most from available light. This is what differentiates him from me not to mention other differences.:hv20-smilie64:

[mattias]

Generally many of us are happy with the images we get with our HV20's (especially from HDMI direct capture) except the DOF and low light capabilities, and that's just what this gives us
for sure, i'm one of you. just stating the obvious i guess.

/matt

[Ian-T]

well...someone should ask the photographer about the lights he used...scene by scene...because according to his blog....he had one small light(forgot the type he mentioned). i agree with you mattais....it all lookeed well lit as if he had a huge setup.

[mattias]

no, it's not the hugeness either. it's as much about controlling existing light, filling or augmenting as necessary, framing to catch that backlight or reflection, balancing or unbalancing the color temperature, and so on. i often work with very few lights myself, even when the budget allows for more, since i'm also a still photographer since before i starting making movies and we're used to it. if you just aim your camera towards any low light scene this is not the results you get.

/matt

[Ian-T]

I understand.

I've never shot still before but coming from a "light hungry" HV20 it's hard to imagine not blasting each of those scenes with as much light as as possible to at least try and come close to what we see on that video.... there would either be a heck of a lot of noise...or a picture that is just too dark (light trick)...

[David]

I mentioned before that I think Vincent's video looks good, but it's not because of his lighting, it's because of the camera, the locations, most of the shot selections and things like that.

In fact, I think some of the shots in that thing are lit horribly. The guy in the car is terribly overlit and the medium close up of the woman with the red light on her face makes me cringe every time I see it. It's not surprising to me that the video is the result of a single fixture at all. A lot of it LOOKS like all he had was one relatively uncontrolled light source, with the exception of the initial shots of the woman on the street which REALLY looks like there is more than one light being used. Her backlight is significant and coming from street level, raking across the frame, but she also has a hard key light.

[Ian-T]

To break it down even further...the sequence of events in this whole video were off....as if it was just thrown together. It tells me things didn't necessarily go as planned.....and a whole lot of bad footage was probably thrown out. So I agree. I got that impression after watching the first few times. But I think what we did get to see was impressive enough.

[Shadow_7]

To find out what was in use for the clip, you can go and read the blog. Alll details are there. Light, gyro stabilizers, etc. You will be surprised.

I was referencing the Canon Specification / Feature page to the actual camera. It's not quite that clear there. Although I didn't download the pdf for the manual of the device.

http://www.usa.canon.com/consumer/controller?act=ModelInfoAct&fcategoryid=215&modelid=17662

Something to drool over for sure. But still a tad pricey. I think I'll finish paying off my car first.

[David]

as if it was just thrown together. It tells me things didn't necessarily go as planned.....

Or that he's simply a still photos guy and doesn't have our moving image chops :)

[mattias]

most of the shot selections and things like that
if you select shots based on natural lighting that is a form of lighting as far as my argument goes, see what i'm saying?


In fact, I think some of the shots in that thing are lit horribly
i tend to agree but as far as technical quality goes it's near perfect. as much contrast as possible without getting blowouts, plenty of backlight, and different color temperatures, is exactly how to create that slick look. it's the same in still photography, amateurs largely use the same sensors or film stocks in the same cameras and similar lenses as the pros, yet they never achieve the glossy ad look.

/matt

[jabloomf1230]

The Red is 300-500 iso. The 5D is 25600 iso! With the size of that sensor and a 21 megapixel sensor reduced to 1920 resolution, it has way better low light capabilities than the Red.

Sure, the 5D MKII has a 25600 ISO setting, but the picture quality doesn't appear to be that good with that much electronic gain. I think that saying that "the D5 has a 25600 ISO setting" is equivalent to saying "the HV30 can take a video in low light, with the gain maxed out". Sure, you have a video, but what about the quality? Don't get me wrong, the "helicopter" demo video that intersperses A1 and D5 footage, really showcases the D5 in low light. If I were the Red guys, I'd be scared right about now. Not about the D5 MKII so much, but rather what either the D5 MKIII might look like or what the next gen Canon camcorders might be able to do.

After the initial public response to the Nikon D90, the Canon 5D MKII and a few other hybrid DSLRs that will shoot HD video, we have now entered phase 2. In this phase, ordinary folks will get their hands on the new cameras and we will get a much better idea of their true capabilities. I'm not about to run out and buy a D5 MKII, even though I have Canon DSLR lenses in my bag. I'm still waiting to see what it can really do and what is just hype.

[Duke]

Sure, the 5D MKII has a 25600 ISO setting, but the picture quality doesn't appear to be that good with that much electronic gain. I think that saying that "the D5 has a 25600 ISO setting" is equivalent to saying "the HV30 can take a video in low light, with the gain maxed out".



Is it taking the image and down rez'ing the image so artifacts get averaged out? Or maybe the large surface allows more receptors to be activated? I don't know, but someone said that electronic amplification isn't necessary for the most part in this camera due to the huge sensor size.

Most cameras can handle a little gain and still look good. I suspect a combination of factors, a little gain, a bigger sensor, a little averaging. I wouldn't recommend maximizing gain on any camera.

All I said is it operates better in low light than the Red.

I saw next to zero grainy gain in those clips (other than the A1 clips).

[Duke]

I'm not a DSLR person. I'm trying to decipher the nomenclature on the B&H website for the lens offered. (Separately it costs about $1,100, but they are bundling it for $900.)

EF 24-105mm f/4L IS USM

EF = electronic focus? Or just a mount style?

24-105mm = got that, range of the zoom lens.

f/4L = What is the "L"? And is this a f1.4 writen in a different style?

IS = Image Stabilization?

USM = ??
----
EDIT: Sorry. My bad, here are most of my answers:

"EF — This refers to Canon's electronic lens mount, used in all Canon camera since 1987. The previous mechanical lens mount carried the letters FD.

28 - 70mm — this is the range of focal lengths covered by the lens, 28mm at the wide end and 70mm at the long end (for example).

f/3.5-5.6 — this is the range of the maximum aperture of the lens, in this example f/3.5 at the lens' wide angle setting, changing to f/5.6 at its longest focal length. A prime or zoom lens with a fixed maximum aperture will have just a single F stop shown in the name.

L — Canon's designation for their top-of-the-line lenses is the letter L. These lenses are the best that the company knows how to make at any given focal length and aperture, and of course for a given price (which in the case of L series lenses is usually high).

IS — indicates that the lens utilizes Image Stabilization, which reduces vibration as much as 3 stops, allowing hand holding of long lenses at much lower shutter speeds than would otherwise be possible.

USM — stands for Ultrasonic Motor, a technology that uses sound waves to position the lens elements when focusing. This reduces size, weight and power consumption of the autofocus mechanism as well as increasing speed and allowing for manual override."

From: http://www.luminous-landscape.com

[dcloud]

almost replied with the answers.. so you guys never tried slr before?:hv20-smilie01:

well im gonna say this once again, based on the video ive seen, he used very little light.
by little, i mean 1 - 2 800 watt lights.
No lights used on the cars scenes,
1 pc monitor on the room.

some scenes look overlit, some scenes dont look that great.. obviously it was shot 72 hrs. He probably didnt have too much retakes and spent most of the day doing logistics. it IS just thrown together. I dont see whats the negativity...if this was shot on a well planned production it will look great.

also, it is very light sensitive.. that explains why it still looks great despite the very dark streets. He explained a lot on his blog.. its pretty easy to distinguish if a scene was lit well and if they used a lot of light..

things it lacks though is a cine like gamma correction to stop blow outs like those seen on the video.

full frame PLUS fast lenses PLUS 6500 (or higher if you love noise) iso with noise then downsized to be averaged to 1080p PLUS a couple of lights = LOW LIGHT SENSITIVE

6500 ISO is already high and a bit noisy

[Lucasberg]

I downloaded the file from the link earlier in the thread and slapped on my PS3 and watched it. After watching it multiple times on the computer and now on my ps3 on a 1080p screen, I must say on the PS3 I did notice more grain than before but still it is amazing quality.

The main scene with the grain is where it is above the guy and swirls into his eye downword.


I almost hate this this came out. I want it since I have some Canon L's and I would love for the most part not to have to bring 2 cams to places, Macro video I could get, lowlight capability.

Then I can't really afford it right now, it doesn't have at least a 60P mode and it doesn't have a high shutter speed for slowmo( 2 features I wanted in my next video cam) and I still don't know what the reality of using it like a real video camera will be.

I do know if it was 24P only instead of 30P I would not even think of getting one.

[jason7]

does anyone know if this camera suffers from jellovision too?
the d90 does.

thanks.

ps. jellovision means the rolling shutter problem

[dcloud]

does anyone know if this camera suffers from jellovision too?
the d90 does.

thanks.

ps. jellovision means the rolling shutter problem

yes. but not as bad as d90. the footage would have to be unsuable for it to appear.

thank you for explaining what jellovision is :hv20-smilie87:

[kosulin]

This is fun: Lucasberg needs 60p and high shutter speed, but if it had 24p, he'd buy it immediately:hv20-smilie81:

Sorry Lucasberg, my fault:hv20-smilie70:

[Lucasberg]

Re-read my comment. I'm not a 24P video fan. I wouldn't be thinking of getting one if it was 24P only.

[threadhanger]

Looks like a nice camera but I'd wait on Canon's next crop of prosumer camcorders if I had $3000 to $5000 available. Surely to God this is just a tease as to how good they are going to be. The 30p is a clue. They are not wanting this to compete with what's coming out.

[Ian-T]

I dont see whats the negativity...if this was shot on a well planned production it will look great.

No negativity in my statement...at all. Just calling it as I see it. Think about this...folks everywhere judge 48 hour shorts ....all the time. If this guy had 70+ hours...and...he's a professional....then there's nothing wrong with a little constructive criticism....you think? I didn't even criticize his work......just made an observation.

Edit: Honestly...I could see where he was originally headed with this piece...but from the looks of it...he ran out of decent footage and probably pieced together what he had. It still looks good.....like....a sort of commercial.

[twoneil]

The 30p is fine. But if they produce cameras that can capture 120fps, then I will switch right away.
.....but we will probably have to wait for that after 2 years or so.

[1]

There's another thing that one has to remember when viewing 'Reverie':
the total cost of lenses that were used is something like $30000 USD (when new),
with some pretty fast ones amongst them:

EF Lenses used in the making of REVERIE:
FD 7.5mm f/5.6 (converted to EF mount): ~expensive when new 1979 (90000 Yen)
EF 16-35mm f/2.8L II USM: $1400
EF 24-70mm f/2.8L USM: $1200
EF 50mm f/1.2L USM: $1500
EF 85mm f/1.2L II USM: $1900
EF 135mm f/2L USM: $900
EF 200mm f/1.8L USM: $4600
EF 400mm f/2.8L IS USM: $7000
EF 500mm f/4L IS USM: $5800
TS-E 24mm f/3.5L: $1200
TS-E 45mm f/2.8: $1200

Luckily for me, I have some decent glass already, even if some is FD mount.

[jabloomf1230]

All I said is it operates better in low light than the Red.

I saw next to zero grainy gain in those clips (other than the A1 clips).

I was agreeing with you. But, I have read that the 25600 ISO setting is a gimmick, akin to digital zoom. I doubt that that A1/D5 demo clip was shot at 25600.

Like I said. I'm going to wait. I'm sure some of you more adventurous souls will have a D5 MKII fairly soon and we can all get a legitimate, unbiased review. Well, as unbiased as someone who just shelled out ~3K US can be.;)

[kosulin]

Yes, the lens list is expressive (I would estimate it around $15-20K). But the reason they've used so many lenses is very simple: they were not doing some production clip, they were exploring what can the body deliver. And this is why they used all fast lenses they had. Not because they needed them, but because they wanted to see what can be done with these lenses and this body in low light.

[kosulin]

The 30p is fine. But if they produce cameras that can capture 120fps, then I will switch right away.
.....but we will probably have to wait for that after 2 years or so.
2 years? You will need a terabyte SSD (or some new technology instead) to store the footage. And where are you going to show it? Even if a new TV standard was approved today, it would take at least 7-8 years to make it mainstream. Remember when 1080p was approved? 2002. And it is still in it's infancy. Let's be realists: 60p 1080 is the maximum we can expect for next 5 years. 10 years from now this can be replaced with 4K.