How to get 1920 x 1080 video from HV20

[Anwar]

I just got my HV20E and have been reading most of the threads here - lots of good information. But I do have one question.

HDVSplit produces HD video files at 1440 x 1080, same for Vista Home Premium Movie Maker. HV20 native sensor size is 1920 x 1080. How can I create video files at HV20 native CMOS sensor resolution?

Thanks in advance.

[Ian-T]

I just got my HV20E and have been reading most of the threads here - lots of good information. But I do have one question.

HDVSplit produces HD video files at 1440 x 1080, same for Vista Home Premium Movie Maker. HV20 native sensor size is 1920 x 1080. How can I create video files at HV20 native CMOS sensor resolution?

Thanks in advance.Depending on the type of NLE you use you can upconvert the footage to 1920x1080 from the timeline. You might or might not know this but the HDV standard is 1440x1080. If you want to capture your footage at "true" 1920x1080 then it can only be done over HDMI with additonal hardware.

[SenorKaffee]

HDV standard is 1440x1080, and you won´t get more pixels, sorry.

[Anwar]

Thank you both. Does that mean the HDV data saved to the mini DV tape at 25 MB/s has 1440 x 1080 resolution and HV20 HDMI output is upscaled from that?

Now I understand why Sony HDV camcorders use 1440 x 1080 sensor. So the extra pixels in HV20 are wasted...

[stoop]

Of course, with Blackmagic Intensity card ($295) one can capture full 1920HD resolution direct from HV20 via HDMI:

http://blackmagic-design.com/products/intensity/

Software update enables HV20:
http://www.hdforindies.com/2007/06/blackmagic-adds-hv20-25p-1080i-hdv.html

Haven't tried here. Probably will pull trigger on Intensity card in the future.

- Stoop

[kbrafford]

So the extra pixels in HV20 are wasted...

Not at all!!!

Go read up on the difference between "nearest neighbor" and "bicubic" resampling algorithms. You can always do fantastic things with more information, even if you have to get rid of some information.

[kbrafford]

Of course, with Blackmagic Intensity card ($295) one can capture full 1920HD resolution direct from HV20 via HDMI...Haven't tried here. Probably will pull trigger on Intensity card in the future.

How many hard drives do you need to RAID in order to sink that data rate?

[um3k]

How many hard drives do you need to RAID in order to sink that data rate?

A few maybe, but keep in mind that you don't necessarily have to record uncompressed--the real advantage of the uncompressed feed is that you get to choose how it will be compressed. If you are slightly insane (or want to become so), you can opt for uncompressed. However, one could pick a codec to keep the data rate reasonable and still be a great improvement over HDV.

[pascalbrown]

Would you need extra hardware (ie. an HDMI input) to use something like adobe onlocation, or is it possible to use an HDMI to DVI cable and capture direct to disk?

[Erik Bien]

I'm pretty sure that DV/HDV Rack (now "OnLocation" after Adobe bought them) is FireWire only.

[kbrafford]

A few maybe, but keep in mind that you don't necessarily have to record uncompressed--the real advantage of the uncompressed feed is that you get to choose how it will be compressed. If you are slightly insane (or want to become so), you can opt for uncompressed. However, one could pick a codec to keep the data rate reasonable and still be a great improvement over HDV.

I don't mean for storage. I mean who has a disk system that can drink HDMI data and not drop any of it? That has to be at least 177 megabytes per second!

[white_2kgt]

I don't mean for storage. I mean who has a disk system that can drink HDMI data and not drop any of it? That has to be at least 177 megabytes per second!

Nobody said you had to save it un-encoded aka raw. From what I understand you'd capture using HDMI then you get to pick your coded instead of relying solely on HDV encoding. You should be able to get away using 2 drives in RAID0.

[Ian-T]

I don't mean for storage. I mean who has a disk system that can drink HDMI data and not drop any of it? That has to be at least 177 megabytes per second!Yeah, I think the purpose is to catch the video at something other than HDV (not in its RAW state but with any codec of choice) for example: using Cineform's NEO HDV codec to capture "live" footage can from what I understand be just as good as capturing it uncompressed (ok...don't knock me here....this is what I get from reading). So in other words.....it's not necessary at all to capture uncompressed and HDMI at least gives us a choice.

Sorry...basically said the same thing as UM3K.

[bensuse]

Thank you both. Does that mean the HDV data saved to the mini DV tape at 25 MB/s has 1440 x 1080 resolution and HV20 HDMI output is upscaled from that?

Now I understand why Sony HDV camcorders use 1440 x 1080 sensor. So the extra pixels in HV20 are wasted...

A very good original question asked...."Wasted"...I agree Anwar...Perhaps all the LCD, Plasma and Sensor makers need to only make displays/sensors in 1440 res...why 1920 indeed!

[SalaTar]

HDV standard is set in stone at or you dont use the LOGO


(1) Trademarks

HDV and HDV logo are trademarks of Sony Corporation and Victor Company of Japan, Limited (JVC).

(2) License of HDV trademarks

HDV and HDV logo will be licensed only to the tape drive products which can record and play video cassette compliant to the HDV Format (HDV Tapes). The HDV trademarks may not be used on any products without a such tape drive.

(3) Use of HDV trademarks for products which do not have functions to record HDV Tapes.

The HDV trademarks may not be used on products (HDV related products), such as signal converters or video editing software which do not have functions to record HDV Tapes.

[tokyo_ren]

after reading through this post I thought it was worth summing up...

1 - is a 1920 x 1080 sensor wasted?
definately no, and for the following two reasons
i) the down sizing that takes place in camera results in better image quality
someone already mentioned about sampling - basically the image quality has the potential to be ever so slightly better than an image taken from a 1440 x 1080 sensor
ii) you can take the raw output from the 1920 x 1080 sensor at full native resolution and capture it via HDMI

2 - do you need a RAID to capture HDMI?
yes and no.
yes if you intend to capture true uncompressed raw data - but there is no real need for that as there are cards that will capture and, via the host computer, output a compressed file for you onto a standard hard disc at much lower data rates.

3 - HDMI cards and data rates
the Black Magic Intensity (http://www.blackmagic-design.com/products/intensity/) HDMI card will allow you to connect an HDVI savi camera to your PC and capture at 12MB/s (thats 96Mb/s which is the same as DV PRO100 or four parallel standard DV codecs) - its also a hell of a lot more data than you get from the HV20's tape and as was the point of the original post - you get it at 1920 x 1080.

4 - what do you need to be able to do this?
a decent PC (something not to old - dual core should be fine) to be able to compress 12MB/s on the fly - check Black Magic Intensity specs
getting 12MB/s onto disc is no longer a problem with the average SATAII internal hard disc running at about 45MB/s (my own experience) in most new systems.

I'm hoping to get the Intensity Pro card as it also gives you analogue ins and outs.
Not only can you capture analogue SD formats via the Pro card, you should also be able to use the SD outputs to monitor your HD work on the timeline of a compatable app.

In the future I'm sure there will be more portable solutions but at $250~$350 US for an HDMI card, I'm not complaining!

In the meantime....
How long is a piece of HDMI cable? :)

[pascalbrown]

This makes interesting reading for those that are interesting in getting full res. from their hv20. A bit nerdy, but cool;

http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?t=94080

[joe12south]

I think that everyone might also be glossing over the fact that the 1440 pixels are tall "video" pixels, not square "computer" pixels. If you do the math and correct, amazingly enough, it comes to 1920. ;-)

[skerit]

I think that everyone might also be glossing over the fact that the 1440 pixels are tall "video" pixels, not square "computer" pixels. If you do the math and correct, amazingly enough, it comes to 1920. ;-)

But doesn't that mean that regular 1920 HDTV video also has these tal pixels, making it *even* taller?

[SenorKaffee]

1920x1080 resolution has square pixels.

Don´t forget that the only advantage you have when you capture HDMI is that the video is not MPEG2-compressed. As Blackmagic said, you don´t get extra pixels.

[tokyo_ren]

1920x1080 resolution has square pixels.

Don´t forget that the only advantage you have when you capture HDMI is that the video is not MPEG2-compressed. As Blackmagic said, you don´t get extra pixels.

hmm....
what do you mean by 'extra pixels' ?

I'd like to be corrected if I'm wrong...

ii) you can take the raw output from the 1920 x 1080 sensor at full native resolution and capture it via HDMI

thanks

[joe12south]

Don´t forget that the only advantage you have when you capture HDMI is that the video is not MPEG2-compressed. As Blackmagic said, you don´t get extra pixels.
Actually, you get much more color resolution, as well. HDV doesn't only use MPEG compression, it also throws away 3/4 of the color resolution.


you can take the raw output from the 1920 x 1080 sensor at full native resolution and capture it via HDMI
The "native" resolution of the sensor is basically unknown, and because it is a 1-chip solution, the image is reconstructed from many discrete red, green and blue pixels (a bayer filter.) The "native" output from the sensor would be a RAW dump.

[tokyo_ren]

there seems to be a lot of confusion generated by armchair enthusiasts...

isn't it about time for some techinical moderation?
no... I'm not volunteering

[Agent_Link_Dark]

is it posible to capture at 1280x720?

[Leonard Wong]

I don't think you can capture at 720. You basically get what the camera outputs which is 1920x1080 thru the HDMI port or 1440x1080 from footage stored on DV. If you want 720, you'll need to do that in post.

[Agent_Link_Dark]

correct me if im wrong but even if the sensor is at 1920x1080 it is recorded on the tape as 1440x1080 and when it plays back through the HDMI all its doing is stretching it to 1920x1080?

[tokyo_ren]

correct me if im wrong but even if the sensor is at 1920x1080 it is recorded on the tape as 1440x1080 and when it plays back through the HDMI all its doing is stretching it to 1920x1080?

Yes.


its only when you digitally record(capture) directly via the HDMI socket to external storage (live) that you get a full 1920 pixels.

[Vladimir]

Yes.


its only when you digitally record(capture) directly via the HDMI socket to external storage (live) that you get a full 1920 pixels.

Can you please prove any facts (screenshots with IntensityCard and the same from HDV). So we can compare this 2 screenshots and say exactly is it real horisontal resolution grow (via Intensity card) or it just a fake 1440 upscaled to 1920 via HDMI. I believe many people there want to know TRUE about that "1920 via HDMI"

[tokyo_ren]

Can you please prove any facts (screenshots with IntensityCard and the same from HDV). So we can compare this 2 screenshots and say exactly is it real horisontal resolution grow (via Intensity card) or it just a fake 1440 upscaled to 1920 via HDMI. I believe many people there want to know TRUE about that "1920 via HDMI"

No, but HDMI is just a data interface as is USB or Firewire, all be it video data specific and as such doesn't do anything to the signal.
It also has no support for 1440 x 1080 (see HDMI spec 1.1 section 6.3 (pdf pages 80~81 (http://www.hdmi.org/download/HDMI_Specification_1.1.pdf))


The image sensor of the HV20 is native 1920 wide and only gets sqeezed to 1440 at the data compression stage of the camera. It would be extra work to provide a 1440 signal at the HDMI socket (that could not be used anyway).

[Vladimir]

No, but HDMI is just a data interface as is USB or Firewire, all be it video data specific and as such doesn't do anything to the signal.
It also has no support for 1440 x 1080 (see HDMI spec 1.1 section 6.3 (pdf pages 80~81 (http://www.hdmi.org/download/HDMI_Specification_1.1.pdf))


The image sensor of the HV20 is native 1920 wide and only gets sqeezed to 1440 at the data compression stage of the camera. It would be extra work to provide a 1440 signal at the HDMI socket (that could not be used anyway).
I don't say it sends 1440 to HDMI.
I just say that it can downscale 1920 signal from sensor to 1440 (in DigicII dsp), then upscale it to 1920 and send that "faked 1920" to HDMI. We need 2 screenshots to compare here to say exactly what real resolution we have.

There is no official reply from Canon that we can get TRUE 1920 from sensor. But i have read somewhere that DigicII DSP working directly with sensor and has 1440 at it's out, so looks like there is no way to get 1920 signal between this two: sensor and DigicII.

We have made an experiment at home with a tripod: After connecting HV20 to FULLHD TV via HDMI.
We have recorded 10 secs then rewind it back and play via HDMI.
Then we have switched to "camera" mode and see the same scene "directly from sensor". And IMHO! where is no horisontal resolution impression grow after switching from "playback" to "camera mode".

[tokyo_ren]

you're missing the point...

but I see your point :hv20-smilie91:

its time to go outside and experience "the weekend"

[Vladimir]

you're missing the point...

but I see your point :hv20-smilie91:

its time to go outside and experience "the weekend"
Nice weekend:)