Microphone advice requested

[Jongleur]

Note: Some of this post is identical to the tripod advice thread I started here. I just want to make sure people have all the context they need.

Before I start, let me say that I have read the following threads:

http://www.hv20.com/showthread.php?t=88&highlight=stereo&page=4 (http://www.hv20.com/showthread.php?t=88)
http://www.hv20.com/showthread.php?t=1349
http://www.hv20.com/showthread.php?t=1344

I just bought a HV20 and the Rode Videomic as a package deal. I'm going to use the camera to film spoken word performances. These will take place in a bar. I am a technically-inclined person, and I want to learn, but I am completely inexperienced at recording high-quality footage and sound in this setting. I am not a sound engineer by any stretch, but I am willing to put in (a reasonable amount of) time and money to get there.

I want to record for dual purposes. Some footage will eventually make its way to DVDs, but much more commonly it will be downsampled and go into a YouTube-type workflow. We will also be making "live" CDs.

Good quality sound is my highest concern. This is spoken word, and I'd like to get every nuance of the poet's voice, from a desperate whisper all the way up to the most impassioned screaming.

Ok, so that's over the top. Sorry, but poetry is my Thing. :hv20-smilie09:

Now, I have seen Mal and some others discussing $500 setups, and I can't afford that, not now at any rate. I am also going to acquire a PA system over time, which will be similarly tailored for spoken word. Right now all I have is a Shure B58a (http://www.shure.com/ProAudio/Products/WiredMicrophones/us_pro_Beta58A_content) which I'll plug into the bar's sound setup. Eventually I'll get my own amp/mixing board etc.

So if my goal is a warm and full sound that captures the nuance of spoken word, I have some questions:

1. Should I go with an external mic attached to the camera, or try to run sound in off of the PA system? Does the distance between the PA setup and the camera (i.e., how long the cable(s) is) affect which choice is better?

2. What's the advantage of stereo mics over mono mics in this setting? I guess most of the time I would prefer to pick up some ambient noise for that live feel, but never to the extent that we lose aspects of the performer.

Apart from those two main questions, I just want your opinions/advice. Recall that I am getting a mono shotgun mic (the Rode Videomic) already. I am hopeful that I'll find a solution for now that's $300 or less. In a year, if we are really successful and want to expand what we do, maybe a $500 or more solution will be viable, but not now. And of course if I can get 90% of what I want for cheaper, I'd love to know about it.

Thanks for helping a noob become slightly less noobish,
Chris

[IRBSurfer]

I got a Rode Videomic in the mail yesterday, and today I tested it. After I drug it out on the stage (Sony Vegas) I was SHOCKED! to find out that I had two channels of sound and not one. So I tested an external hand held mic to see if it also records with two channels but it doesn't. So at this point Im not sure that the Videomic is mono, from what I can see its STEREO! And the quality of the Videomic is AWESOME! I used it with the DeadCat and even at full wide you cant see hairs, so Im really, really happy with the Rode Videomic.

If you can plug in to the PA with 1/8", do that. (IMHO)

Stero vs Mono. Stereo is good for live performances of music and perhaps your situation. Mono is pretty standard for interviews though. But keep in mind that the Videomic doesn't appear to be mono from my testing.

[white_2kgt]

Just b/c you have 2 channels of audio doesn't mean it's stereo. It just means the same audio is recorded on 2 channels. Take a look at the wave form, they are identical.

This is a stereo waveform,
http://www.2kgt.com/gallery/d/14379-1/vegas-waveform-stereo.jpg
Notice how the top channel the amplitudes are not as great. Now compare that to what you are seeing in your editor, I bet the waveforms are exactly the same. The Videomic is just sending the same signal to both the left and right channels. I have the Stereo Version of the VideoMic, it's much larger than the mono version, so it can detect 2 separate sounds.

[IRBSurfer]

That is precisely what I am seeing, I will take a SS here as I try to figure it out. No BS!

[IRBSurfer]

That is precisely what I am seeing
http://a515.ac-images.myspacecdn.com/images01/117/l_f686d0485e1400797be24de1e23e8c0a.jpg

http://a291.ac-images.myspacecdn.com/images01/113/l_aac8f378a08ed8c14cdf0410046da02a.jpg

[IRBSurfer]

Where is this being done anyways? It must be happening in the Rode Videomic itself. Im super impressed with the quality it produces, and the way it spreads the sound over two channels by actually adjusting the amplitudes and all. Is that what is really going on here, if it is, im impressed either way. I had no idea that it could do that, and with such success. I expected one channel and got two, and it really does sound like it was shot in stereo even if its just onboard software or something doing it.

[24Peter]

Where is this being done anyways? It must be happening in the Rode Videomic itself. Im super impressed with the quality it produces, and the way it spreads the sound over two channels by actually adjusting the amplitudes and all. Is that what is really going on here, if it is, im impressed either way. I had no idea that it could do that, and with such success. I expected one channel and got two, and it really does sound like it was shot in stereo even if its just onboard software or something doing it.

Do you realize you need to plug the mic into the camera to get sound? That waveform you posted looks like what you'd get from the built-in mic...

[IRBSurfer]

Of course, I had it plugged in and turned on. I did not use the high pass filter. This is not the onboard mic. I am as shocked as everyone else. Im still scratching my head trying to figure out what is going on here.

[IRBSurfer]

Further testing reveals that it copies the audio to both channels.

I tested by speaking on the left side then the right side into the mic. Captured and dropped on timeline in Vegas. Both wave forms look exactly alike.

http://a693.ac-images.myspacecdn.com/images01/87/l_b7fedf4766501fc24ae8bb3604d1552c.jpg

Overall, im still very happy with the performance and the surprise added bonus of audio on both channels. The Rode Videomic also clears the Cinetactics Mattebox unlike the DM-50 and Senn mikes. I would recommend the Rode Videomic.

[Jongleur]

The discussion above has been enlightening; I am learning a lot.

So to recap:
- After some discussion, we have confirmed that the Rode VideoMic is indeed a mono mic.
- Some people are pretty happy with the Rode VideoMic.

This helps, but I'm not quite where I want to be. To go back to my original questions:



So if my goal is a warm and full sound that captures the nuance of spoken word, I have some questions:

1. Should I go with an external mic attached to the camera, or try to run sound in off of the PA system? Does the distance between the PA setup and the camera (i.e., how long the cable(s) is) affect which choice is better?

2. What's the advantage of stereo mics over mono mics in this setting? I guess most of the time I would prefer to pick up some ambient noise for that live feel, but never to the extent that we lose aspects of the performer.

If I am really focused on the nuance of spoken word, with a little bit of ambient crowd noise, which of the following should I go for, if my budget is <= $300?

1. A mono mic, perhaps even the Rode VideoMic that's on its way to me right now. We'll call this option "free" since I already purchased it.
2. A stereo external mic
3. Running sound into the audio input straight from the PA. And how does cable length/quality fit in here?

I'd like to know your opinions, specific equipment suggestions, and any reasoning you can share behind your choices. I'd especially like to hear from people who have worked in a similar environment.

Thanks again. You guys are awesome. :hv20-smilie83:

- Chris

[IRBSurfer]

95% of my job (now) is filming spoken word. In the past I have plugged into the PA (sometimes using the headphone plug on the mixing board) as my preferable source of sound with a 25' 1/4" adapter Male/Male cable w/1/8" converter (for the cam). I rarely use more than 10' of it. It only comes through in stereo and it does not pick up any room ambience (after editing).

I also keep a Shure C606 microphone with a 15' 1/8" cable for those times when I dont have a mixing board to plug into. I also have a table stand and a floor stand for the mic. It only comes through in mono and it also picks up very, very little room ambience.

I just upgraded (finally) to a shotgun mic (Rode Videomic) primarily for testing purposes and for on-the-run shots. It performs so well that I am probably going to use the shotgun mic as my preferred method of capturing audio for all situations from now on. It only comes through as a mixed up mono to stereo signal (a copied pair of mono channels) but has excellent room ambience and it sounds pretty stereo (but kinda flat).

I am itching to try to record live music with the shotgun mic to see how well it sounds becuase I would rather not purchase a separate stereo mic (if I cant plug into the mixing board). I have plans on testing this at the Mourningstar show in Ocala, FL tomorrow night. So I will let you know how it goes.

[Erik Bien]

There's a rule of thumb that sound effects and Foley recordists sometimes use that says, "if it's larger than your head, record in stereo, otherwise record in mono."

Since most people only talk out of a single, fairly small hole in their head, spoken word and dialog is generally recorded mono.

Taking a feed from the sound board is a great way to capture the performance without room and audience ambience, as previously stated. The trouble starts when their feed doesn't want to play nice with your camera: if you're going to be shooting in a lot of different venues, a BeachTek or other XLR adapter with gain knobs and some XLR gender-changers may save your bacon.

[pda4de]

Hello,

I have a question about the on-camera use of the Rode VideoMic.

Will the Rode VideoMic eliminate the internal mechanism noise produced by the HV20? I have read other posts about adjusting the camera to lower the noise. What is possible?

I plan to buy the camera and mic very soon.

Thanks, Paul

[IRBSurfer]

I tested the Rode VideoMic from my home studio by turning off the AC, turning off the ceiling fan, TV, and computers so that I had a perfectly quiet room. I then mounted the HV20 on my tripod with the VideoMic, slipped on the headphones, cranked up the volume, hit record and strained to hear what I could (which was nothing but an airy sound). I then captured the clip, replugged and slipped on the headphones, cranked up the volume and found that I could clearly hear my UPS (I have a powerful Uninterruptable Power Supply that humms) over any sounds that I could hear from the camera recording, but I could hear the camera recording (but faintly, and only at insane volume levels).

Im quite impressed with the results becuase the HV20 is really quite loud! Although Im not all that surprised because the Rode VideoMic is mounted at a pretty good distance from the camera itself, AND its mounted via rubber shocks (whatever)!

The only slight drawback of the Rode VideoMic is that the mounts leave the Mic a little flimsy mounted on the HV20, ie, it wobbles slightly side-to-side by about a quarter inch. But the trade-off (shock mount for wobble) is more than worth it in my opinion.

As far as adjusting it, I also forgot to mention that I did my test with the Dead Kitten ON the VideoMic. My tests (this and other tests) proved to me that the dead kitten does not over muffle the sound, but instead adds another layer of "wind noise" and "ambient noise" reduction only without adversely affecting the audio recording of the subject.

[IRBSurfer]

I have confirmed from my own tests that the Rode VideoMic records audio in "mono" but copies the sound to both channels. You must use your NLE to remove one of the channels if you are looking to completely restrict the audio to one channel so that you may dub something else onto the other channel or whatever. Exactly which channel this is (left or right) is a little uncertain to me at this time, perhaps after some further testing I will post which channel is the "original" and which is the "copy".

SOmeone with a Rode VideoMic should confirm my results (as this is not written in stone yet). Im only 98% sure.

[pda4de]

Thanks IRBSurfer for the info! Paul

[tokyo_ren]

I have confirmed from my own tests that the Rode VideoMic records audio in "mono" but copies the sound to both channels.

Thank goodness for that :eek:

its a mono mic...
this is thier stereo one
http://www.rodemic.com/?pagename=Products&product=Stereo_VideoMic

A typical mono mic will split the audio into Left and Right channels, with no voodoo at all, so that you get audio at dead center and audible in both ears when it goes to tape.


You must use your NLE to remove one of the channels if you are looking to completely restrict the audio to one channel so that you may dub something else onto the other channel or whatever.

don't do that, please don't... :hv20-smilie58:

In post/NLE, whatever you want to call it, its typical to leave the mono signal as it is (i.e. balanced across Left & Right channels) and then "pan" it to the position you want the audio to be at (typically music - not video voice!).
We're not talking orchestra or drums and cymbals here, we're talking what the camera saw/heard dead center - so in most cases for video you would leave it panned dead center...

Of course you can layer mono(real mono and/or LRmono) and stereo tracks in most NLE applications and mix down to a final 2 channel LR stereo track.
Of course that final mix down can also be a dual mono LR track (no stereo image - but you get equal sound in both ears).


Exactly which channel this is (left or right) is a little uncertain to me at this time, perhaps after some further testing I will post which channel is the "original" and which is the "copy".


trust me, the Left and Right channels are identical :hv20-smilie31:

Summing up, there is no need to restrict the mic's signal to just the Left or Right channels at any stage in the NLE workflow.
Feel free to try it if you want to cause yourself problems.

cheers,

Ren