Reasons not to buy HV20

[max99]

OMG, is this another post by some indecisive filmmaker wannabe who will use the camera primarily for home video and hobby crap, and who needs us to tell him how to spend his money?! Yes. Yes it is.

I want to upgrade from my 3-chip Sony.

Here is why I haven't pulled the trigger on the leading contenders:

1. HV20 - If I go through the pain of working with HDV (FCE on a G4 1.67 Mac), learning shots, learning how to light and bettering my craft overall, why not invest in a camera that will let me become the best videographer/filmmaker that I can be? I won't buy another camera for years and years. This is it. No focus ring, so-so zoom button, manual limitations, an overall consumer-feeling camera. Just go for HDV gold and get the Canon XH-A1. Anything you do on this camera will simply be better on the A1, which has the heft to make your shots look like film instead of video. In the end, you can afford the upgrade IF you really are committed to making it worthwhile.


2. Canon XH-A1 - You won't be taking this monster on half the trips you take the HV20. For the $2k extra, are you really going to use all the manual stuff? You'll need a much bigger tripod, too. And what about a new monitor for color correcting? Why not get an HV20 and spend your savings on lighting, and maybe a 35mm adapter. Guys who are real filmmakers are using the HV20 as both primary and secondary cameras, and cranking out good stuff. Just use the tripod a lot. On the other hand, if you are so interested in making "films", just dump the sub-standard HDV format altogether and buy an HVX200. P2 cards will only become cheaper, solid state P2 format editing is easier on the MAC, and you will REALLY have the gold standard of entry-pro cameras. The extra $2k will make a dramatic difference.

3. Panasonic HVX200 - Who are you kidding, kid? This camera is way out of your league. And if you thought the size and extra cost of the A1 was tough, wait to you lug around this guy to the local park on a Sunday afternoon. You'll have to upgrade to FCP just to handle the footage. Talk about using a sledgehammer on a nail. Make one decent film before you spend your money.

4. No rush. Wait until HDV or the cameras figure themselves out. That 3-chip Sony will last you another year. SD is easy to work with and has a better picture than the other Jones' on the block. If you really want to upgrade, get a DVX and learn the trade. You can edit easily and you'll be ready for the HVX when the time is right.

5. DVX100b - OMG, why buy SD these days, with HD around the corner? You don't have clients for whom you need to produce product this instant! Shoot in HD, future-proof your life, and burn when Blu-ray is affordable. This is a step backwards.


So, can anyone help me pull the trigger on something? Thanks.

[Erik Bien]

Hi Max,

It sounds like you've already done your homework and you chose this site to ask your question, so you probably have a pretty good idea of what answer the folks here are likely to have!

But in case you missed it, the pros and cons of many of your choices were recently discussed at REDuser.net (http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=3050). The whole thread's worth a read, but here's one relevant highlight:

"Most prosumer cameras suck too. Fly-by-wire focus, etc. Most of the DPs I work with come from a film background and hate them!

I'd argue that a HV20 with 35mm adapter has better manual focus controls than any camera for the buck ($2000) - that is, its focus control is the nice focus ring on your 35mm lens ;) Add a follow focus and you have fantastic focus control for less than a "pro" HD camera.

Regarding shutter speed, it's not hard at all to lock it at 1/48. Regarding exposure and white balance, those aren't hard to lock either. You can lock audio levels too. Buy yourself a compact external mixer with real knobs and again, you beat the "pro" HD cameras in the manual control department for less money.

Yes, I wish you could control f-stop / gain independently. But the camera is smart. Throw enough light at it to get the gain down, lock your exposure and go."

... oh and by the way: the guy posting that also mentions in the same thread that he used his HV20 to shoot some VFX plates for the title sequence of a series that debuts this month on TLC ...

[Dodgy Nick]

OMG, is this another post by some indecisive filmmaker wannabe who will use the camera primarily for home video and hobby crap, and who needs us to tell him how to spend his money?! Yes. Yes it is.

I want to upgrade from my 3-chip Sony.

Here is why I haven't pulled the trigger on the leading contenders:

1. HV20 - If I go through the pain of working with HDV (FCE on a G4 1.67 Mac), learning shots, learning how to light and bettering my craft overall, why not invest in a camera that will let me become the best videographer/filmmaker that I can be? I won't buy another camera for years and years. This is it. No focus ring, so-so zoom button, manual limitations, an overall consumer-feeling camera. Just go for HDV gold and get the Canon XH-A1. Anything you do on this camera will simply be better on the A1, which has the heft to make your shots look like film instead of video. In the end, you can afford the upgrade IF you really are committed to making it worthwhile.


2. Canon XH-A1 - You won't be taking this monster on half the trips you take the HV20. For the $2k extra, are you really going to use all the manual stuff? You'll need a much bigger tripod, too. And what about a new monitor for color correcting? Why not get an HV20 and spend your savings on lighting, and maybe a 35mm adapter. Guys who are real filmmakers are using the HV20 as both primary and secondary cameras, and cranking out good stuff. Just use the tripod a lot. On the other hand, if you are so interested in making "films", just dump the sub-standard HDV format altogether and buy an HVX200. P2 cards will only become cheaper, solid state P2 format editing is easier on the MAC, and you will REALLY have the gold standard of entry-pro cameras. The extra $2k will make a dramatic difference.

3. Panasonic HVX200 - Who are you kidding, kid? This camera is way out of your league. And if you thought the size and extra cost of the A1 was tough, wait to you lug around this guy to the local park on a Sunday afternoon. You'll have to upgrade to FCP just to handle the footage. Talk about using a sledgehammer on a nail. Make one decent film before you spend your money.

4. No rush. Wait until HDV or the cameras figure themselves out. That 3-chip Sony will last you another year. SD is easy to work with and has a better picture than the other Jones' on the block. If you really want to upgrade, get a DVX and learn the trade. You can edit easily and you'll be ready for the HVX when the time is right.

5. DVX100b - OMG, why buy SD these days, with HD around the corner? You don't have clients for whom you need to produce product this instant! Shoot in HD, future-proof your life, and burn when Blu-ray is affordable. This is a step backwards.


So, can anyone help me pull the trigger on something? Thanks.

Max, welcome to the forums my man. :hv20-smilie77:
I was in the exact same boat as you a couple of months ago. I wanted to make a few independent films and after a lot of research I wittled down my three choices to the HV20, XHA1 and the HVX200. There was no way I was getting a SD only cam in this day and age. In the end, I was so excited by the features and size of the HV20, that I decided to get it and use the money I saved on mics, stands, backgrounds, lights, bags, filters, lenses, cables, tripods, headphones, editing software, film plugins, royalty free music, etc. It's important to keep in mind that the camera is only one tiny component (albeit an important one) of the film making process.

Other nice things are that you can use it for holidays or use it in tiny spaces. It won't attract too much attention in public, and if you want to increase your production value, you can buy another one and have a 2 cam setup on the cheap, something you can't easily do with more expensive cameras. If you make it bigtime one day, you can upgrade your camera to a more expensive prosumer one and sell the HV20 or keep it as a backup cam for behind the scenes type footage or b-cam. I don't think amateur film makers can go wrong getting this camera. With a little know-how and a few extra bits and bobs, you can get just about any shot you aim for with this baby.

[sp8ce07]

OMG, is this another post by some indecisive filmmaker wannabe who will use the camera primarily for home video and hobby crap, and who needs us to tell him how to spend his money?! Yes. Yes it is.

that was at the top

[User]

Just joined this forum and been really interested in the HV-20. Is this a serious forum or just a fun place for clowns?

[Erik Bien]

User:

The answer to your question is ... Yes.

(This has been another episode of simple answers to simple questions.)

[Ian-T]

Just joined this forum and been really interested in the HV-20. Is this a serious forum or just a fun place for clowns?
What do you think?

[zephyrnoid]

I liker this thread. Sounds a lot like my train of thought 7 year ago when I bought the Canon XL1 (after the first bug fix). To be honest, I never got my money out of it, even at the discounted price of $3,500 smackers that I paid. The problem? I got too busy with other much higher paying work to find time to pick it up. Total raw footage shot- 20, 60 minute Tapes. No award winning stuff there. So I felt lucky to find a buyer to give me 1/3 of what I paid for a basically "like New" Camera. My oath after that?
I swore never ever to buy another video camera that exceeded what I was sure to earn from it in at least the first year.
Hence my decision to spring for the HV20.
Once I've outgrown it, I'll be properly positioned for the next best thing in HD. As always, YMMV

[DLK]

Great thread! Echoes thoughts of mine (though I didn't have any prosumer choices). I am going through the same thing now deciding on a new computer. :hv20-smilie102: Arghhh! At least others feel the same and the members are amazing.:hv20-smilie09:

Thanks to all!
Dave

[max99]

Thanks for the replies so far. Friendly and helpful forum.

Erik: Thanks for that reduser post. Good stuff there. And seeing the footage that some of these folks come up with; that's what keeps me interested in the HV20. (Holding it at Circuit City is what turned me off, frankly. But I guess I can get over the initial cheap feel).

SW: Sounds like you made the right decision, and that gives me confidence to follow with HV20. What usually gives me pause is thinking about how great that A1 would feel in my hands, and how fun it would be to spend my time learning on that manual beast. I can MAKE myself afford it, I figure. But family functions and outings would be a little tougher. And it would be nice to build my kit with the savings.

Zeph: Good thoughts, and I mostly agree. My only difference is that I have no income stream from this device, so I am purely buying on my own selfish and grandiose needs.

Anyway, I may drop by CC again tomorrow to pick it up, and maybe even though down the cash.

[Rikki]

Wow that dude on the Red forum really needs a good slap!

Bet he drives a Porsche and has never had it out of 4th gear!

/rant

[Erik Bien]

Rikki,

Consider that a substantial number of people who post at that "other" site have reserved cameras which, on average, will cost about $30K without such niceties as zoom controls, focus controls, or even a lens!

I think it's safe to say the RED customer base is a lot more like the people who rent from Panavision than the people shopping Best Buy and Circuit City for a camcorder. The bit that amazes me is that any of those guys have even one kind word for "the little camera that could" ...

[Rikki]

Very true Erik, though its something I see in my hobby all the time (performance cars). The mocking/snubbing of the less expensive even when sometimes they can produce the goods just as good if not better than the more costly varients.

Just a pet hate of mine.

[Erik Bien]

Very true Erik, though its something I see in my hobby all the time (performance cars). The mocking/snubbing of the less expensive even when sometimes they can produce the goods just as good if not better than the more costly varients.

Just a pet hate of mine.

:hv20-smilie77: About to set off for din-dins in the much-hated-on-but-still-awesome SN-95 Mustang Cobra ... :hv20-smilie81:

[Rikki]

Pah and all I've got is a mildly tuned rev3, 170mph MR2 GTS :D

[DangerZone]

For your decision on a camera, everything depends on what you are shooting. Are you a beginner, but want footage that looks like professional quality? Are you using this for your own film business? Enough money to buy an expensive camera? Do you have a computer fast enough to handle HD material? What is the main selling feature in the camera that you're looking to buy?

I've seen so many people whine and cry about some of the features that the HV20 doesn't have, but I've had it for over a month and I love it! I've shot stock footage in Alaska with it, filmed my cousin's wedding, took it on scouting shoots for my company's film shoot, and taken lots of miscellaneous video with it. Sure, it needs the flags added to the 24P footage, but that's the only thing I can think of that it needs.

Now, the HVX200 is an amazing camera and definitely my choice, but the workflow is expensive! The P2 card costs will kill you. I'd get it if I were rich or had my own business. I wouldn't recommend using the HV20 as your company's flagship camera. It's just not professional enough and professional looking. It kicks some serious ass, but clients would be weary to see you're using a camera that they use at home.

[max99]

Are you a beginner, but want footage that looks like professional quality? Are you using this for your own film business? Enough money to buy an expensive camera? Do you have a computer fast enough to handle HD material? What is the main selling feature in the camera that you're looking to buy?

Beginner? Not really. More like intermediate. But I want to make quality product.

Not for business, purely hobby.

Enough money? Sure. Like all things financial, it is a choice. Will the extra $2k (or whatever) hurt? Yeah, it will. This is my hobby. It's money that I earned and that I won't be able spend on other stuff. But if I decide that it is something that I'll use and that it is appropriate for me, I've got the cash.

Computer fast enough? Just barely. Apple G4 1.67, 1gb ram (but I'll upgrade to 2gb).

Main selling feature? That's a tough one to summarize. For home movies (most of what I'll be doing), the HV20 seems perfect: small, great picture, etc. If that is all I was doing, I probably wouldn't even be considering another option. But I like the idea that I can upgrade to a camera that would allow me to explore my hobby a little further, and I have been patiently and quiety drooling at the prospect of having a semi-pro camera to spend my time on, learning, exploring, shooting higher quality footage (as compared to what I would shoot with an SD or 1-chip HD). Will I spend the time and money it takes to make it all worthwhile? Or will this be a regretful decision in hindsight, another expensive, underused gadget? That is my decision, and I'm not quite done contemplating. But everyone's advice has been welcome so far.

[DaveReporter]

I faced the same dilemma several months ago until I spoke with a colleague who works for Sky News. He uses a small camera for broadcast news because he can work quickly without a big crew, he is less obvious so he gets into less trouble and he can carry the camera around with him in his backpack so it is ready at all times.

Big camera = big problems.

I was testing an FX1 in the street near my office and someone became abusive thinking I was from a current affairs program. Not a pleasant situation. Another colleague was shooting vox pops and someone took a dislike to him and his big camera and so decided to punch his lights out. They are heavy, need a bigger (read more expensive) tripod and when it comes down to it, as long as the STORY (yep STORY), sound and picture (in that order) are good who cares what you shoot on.

Let's be honest - after more than 5 - 10 seconds of baby's first steps you are putting people to sleep anyway. Spend your money on a good mic (sound is paramount), a tripod, some lights and learning how to shoot a good story.

Unless you really need full manual controls or you need to impress someone for business or other reasons then go the HV20. You can always upgrade to a larger camera if you need one.

Dave

[Erik Bien]

Amen, Dave!

I might add, there's no dishonor in renting gear when the situation calls for it. After you've mastered arm-twisting the HV20 into "nearly full manual" mode you might be able to do better with a more "operator friendly" camera (btw, wonder why no one in this thread has mentioned the JVC HD200/250?), so rent one for a day or three when there are clients to impress.

[FreddieZ]

Max, I respect your honesty about your wannabenaity!

I agree that the HV20 makes a poor first impression, all shackled & tied-down with security wire in Circuit City's carnivale of consumer crap. But for the price in July2007 dollars, I think it's a steal. It's very small and fits in a tiny camera bag and the fact that you can take superb stills while shooting HD video or grab stills from HD video makes it an all purpose digital gizmo. I don't know if your other camera choices can do that.

Reasons not to buy:
1) Sony shoots better in low light situations; 2) Canon AH has a bigger & better lens 3) Panasonic in HD is solidstate and forces you to deal with archiving right away.

If don't you already own a nice new 16x9 family hour screen, get one asap as your first HV20 accessory and you'll love it even more and see its potential as a filmmaking camera. Good luck.

[max99]

Thanks for the additional posts. I have pulled the trigger on the HV20, and I am currently awaiting a VideoMic and tripod kit delivery. Thanks again for all your feedback, and keep on eye out for a barrage of follow-up use and editing questions from yours truly. And, in fact, if you want to see my very first footage, here's the download (http://hosted.filefront.com/max999/), which I posted it in the Footage section.