hf100 60i to 24p conversion?

[hfotis]

Hello all.

I have been doing much research on the HV / HF series of canons.
I tried to answer all my questions without having to resort to ask.
Unfortunately, the deadline has come to make the purchase and I still have questions.

I am looking to buy an HF100 NTSC but I am in a PAL world.
My question is regarding versatility, resolution, and frame rates.

60i / 30p / 24p
which in reality has the highest resolution?

is it possible to shoot 60i and convert to TRUE 24p whislt keeping FULL RESOLUTION?

How versatile is shooting 30p?
possible to convert to 60i or 24p?
without loss in resolution?

Thanks all in advance for any information you may have.

[Lunchbox]

All shooting mode has the same spatial resolution.

Convertion from 60i to 24p you lost temporal resolution while keeping the same spatial resolution. If you want to have 24p, why don't you start shooting at 24p to begin with?

[hfotis]

thanks for the quik reply!

i will be shooting a documentary and may want some footage in a TRUE 24p format and others to look more "video-ish." (60i / 30p)

The thing with this documentary is that I won't have the luxury to decide beforehand.

I would like to decide it in post when I am able to sit down and go through the footage.

Therefore I was wondering has there ever been a successful convertion from 60i to 24p without loss in resolution?
what about a 30p to 24p conversion?

Thanks so much again!

[Lunchbox]

btw, 30p is not video-ish. 30p actually has some what film like look.

It's best to decide your frame rate and shoot mode before you go shooting. It's not wise to do lots of conversion in post. You lost temporal resolution in the conversion. You might also get blury frame or stuttering motion converting 60i/30p to 24p.

What you should do is go shoot something before hand and see if you can get good result in which mode. It's better than planning to do conversion after everything is done.

[hfotis]

Thanks.
I suppose then the answer is it is NOT possible to convert 60i to 24 without loss in resolution.

do 60i and 30p both fall easily in the same timeline?
what exactly is temporal resolution?

I REALLY appreciate the info.

[Lunchbox]

Sorry it was a typo. It is temporal resolution

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Temporal_resolution

It's resolution based on time.

You can put a 30p video on a 60i timeline no problem but not the other way around.

Again, you need to take the mind set off you on fixing/converting things in post. You should plan ahead of what you need and the target delivery method before the actual shooting.

[hfotis]

much obliged for all this.
if you don't mind...

is it possible to convert 60i to 30p or will i run into problems the same?

this all really helps making final decisions on which format to shoot.
thanks!

[Lunchbox]

Yes you can do that but depends on the tool you use. You might end up losing half the vertical resolution.

I would suggest you shoot in 30p as it gives you the semi-film look but no need to deal with 24p stuttering and pulldown removal.

[hfotis]

thank you.

yes. i think i will be shoot 30p.
i mean it is true 30p not like the 24p yes?
thanks so much.

[Babook]

(first post on this forum so "Hi everybody!")


Remember that what NTSC countries call 24p is actually 23.97p and that you'll have to pull up everything by 0.1% to actually get *true* 24fps.


I already own an NTSC HF-100 and I shoot everything at "24p" too and I've started compressing everything in WMV (family videos to send over the internet) and got issues too.
The "24p" is actually 24 frames interlaced in a 60i stream and the only editing software working with my AVCHD files I've found produces crappy videos output right now.
I don't know if I'm supposed to check 24/23.97/29.97/30 fps, "frame based", "upper field first" or "lower field first".
"Upper" and "lower" seems to give worse result so far (ugly interlace artifacts) and frame base gives a blury motion video...


What template do you, HV20 users, use when shooting in 24p?

[Rumpelgeist]

yes. i think i will be shoot 30p.
i mean it is true 30p not like the 24p yes?
Yes, 30p is true 30p unlike 24p, which is not true 30p.

[Lunchbox]

babook,

30fps is a non-drop frame time code. 29.97 is drop-frame time code. They are pratically the same. it's the same for 24fps and 23.976fps. they are the same. You can google "drop frame timecode" in google or Wikipedia to read more what that's the difference.

So you can see them the same thing, drop frame or non-drop frame.

HDV 60i is even field first.

If you shoot in 24p, you are veyr likely to get blury motion. Interface come lines can be removed by deinterlacing the footage in editor or playback program.

[Rumpelgeist]

The "24p" is actually 24 frames interlaced in a 60i stream
Is that so?

and the only editing software working with my AVCHD files I've found produces crappy videos output right now. I don't know if I'm supposed to check 24/23.97/29.97/30 fps, "frame based", "upper field first" or "lower field first". "Upper" and "lower" seems to give worse result so far (ugly interlace artifacts) and frame base gives a blury motion video...
There is a reason, actually a ton of very strong reasons why Sony does not provide 24p mode in its cameras.

Normally, people don't shoot family video in 24p, but as you already did that, you can use "film deinterlace" mode a.k.a. "inverse telecine" in Windows Media Encoder.

See this: http://dvinfo.net/conf/attachment.php?attachmentid=6495&d=1204290245 adjust for yourself. In step 5 you may try "autodetect", sometimes it works, sometimes not.

[Ian-T]

thank you.

yes. i think i will be shoot 30p.
i mean it is true 30p not like the 24p yes?
thanks so much.
24p is "true" 24p...just as 30p is "true 30p.

(sigh....this is one of the reasons why people stated earlier on that they should never have put 24p in a consumer cam....it would have saved a whole lot of confusion).

[Babook]

babook,

30fps is a non-drop frame time code. 29.97 is drop-frame time code. They are pratically the same. it's the same for 24fps and 23.976fps. they are the same. You can google "drop frame timecode" in google or Wikipedia to read more what that's the difference.

So you can see them the same thing, drop frame or non-drop frame.

HDV 60i is even field first.

If you shoot in 24p, you are veyr likely to get blury motion. Interface come lines can be removed by deinterlacing the footage in editor or playback program.



Hu...
I think you get a bit confused too ;)
There is 30fps TC (real 30 fps TC, I think I never ever used that thanks to color TV), 29.97 NDF TC (30 fps with 0.1% pulldown), and 29.97 DF TC (30 fps TC with 0.1% pulldown but way_too_much_complicated_to_be_written_here frames drop here and there (time code frames only, not actual footage frames))
Still, what you call 24p in the States is always 23.97 fps (24 - 0.1%) thanks to your TV color system so if you remain in the consumer domain, doing everything on your home computer, there is no issues using an NTSC camcorder shooting in "pf24" in a pal country (except for some lights producing a "battement" as we have 50Hz power supplies).
But as soon as you need a bigger post production (with audio on a separated recorder then edited and mixed in a real post facility) you'll start having sync issues if your post facility can't work in NTSC.


Believe me, I've been throught that hell for years, working on sync issues between every video format on the planet :hv20-smilie119:

[MikeSmith]

babook,

30fps is a non-drop frame time code. 29.97 is drop-frame time code. They are pratically the same.




FYI from Adobe

NTSC and the drop-frame numbering system
There are three fundamentally important things to remember about NTSC and drop-frame timecode:
• NTSC video always runs at 29.97 frames/second.
• 29.97 video can be notated in either drop-frame or non-drop-frame format.
• Drop-frame timecode only drops numbers that refer to the frames, and not the actual frames.

NTSC video always runs at 29.97 frames/second
Unlike "true 30 fps" video, an hour's worth of NTSC video does not have 108,000 frames in it. It has 99.9% as many
frames, or 107,892 frames, as described earlier. Again, at the rate of 1.8 less per minute, an hour of NTSC video has
108 frames less than an hour of "true 30 fps" video:
108,000 * 99.9% = 107,892 frames in an hour of NTSC video
108,000 - 107,892 = 108 frames difference
If we were to sequentially number each of these frames using the SMPTE Timecode format, the last frame of the
video would be numbered 00:59:26:12:
108 frames = 00:00:03:18 in timecode format
01:00:00:00 - 00:00:03:18 = 00:59:26:12
That is 3 seconds and 18 frames shorter than an hour-long video. Drop-frame timecode is a SMPTE standard that
maintains time accuracy by eliminating the fractional difference between the 29.97 fps frame rate and the 30 fps
numbering.
When you use drop-frame timecode, Premiere 5.x adjusts the frame numbering so that an hour-long
video has its last frame labeled 01:00:00:00.