Call On All Hv20 Owners - To Test For Dropouts

[Patrick Jennings]

CALL ON ALL HV20 OWNERS - TO TEST FOR DROPOUTS

there have been quite a few reports that the HV20 randomly drops out every now and then.

I myself have replaced my HV20 twice because of this issue. i tested with several different tape brands in both HD and standard versions... i used head cleaners and one HV20 actually started chewing tapes after 4 hours of use and two head cleanings....

what is a drop out?

it's when the video cuts out for a second or two.
usually this is because the heads on the camera need cleaning and a simple head cleaning tape will fix it.... but this seems to be an issue with the HV20 it's self.


i think this issue mightn't have been noticed on a large scale for a couple of reasons... the dropouts are so sporadic that people who use the camera only a little bit might never come across it... some people mightn't be aware what dropouts are or that it's a problem with the camera... people using the camera for short takes ( 2 min, 3 min, 30 sec) might have just been lucky and not come across it yet.


how do i test?

the easiest way i've found is - put your camera in front of your TV and record a full hour of tape - the constant movement and sound of television make a dropout easy to detect.

then import your footage onto your computer - make sure you've got 'create new clip on start/stop' selected - after you've imported your footage, if there is more that one file, then you've had a dropout.

you can got to the same time in the time code on your tape to check it really was a drop out and not something else...

report back with what brand tape you were using and how many drop outs, if any, occurred in an hour.


i've found -

JVC PRO HD - 7 or more an hour
SONY HD - at least 1 an hour
SONY Exc - at least 1 an hour

[BarnOwl]

Wouldn't it also be noticed in your editor? I imagine if you see a scene cut off where there shouldn't be, you had a drop out.
I have not had one single dropout as long as I use it (Or I am not aware of it, but in that case it is such a minor issue it doesn't bother me)
Using JVC DVM 63 ProHD tapes.

[Rikki]

I got my first 2 drop outs this weekend

[Ian-T]

I've witnessed no dropouts so far. Had my cam since April and have been using the TDK brand of tapes (cheap).

[bluegrass]

I am consistantly filming 45 to 60 minutes non stop. I thought it was just my brand of tape and wasn't sure whether I wanted to live with it or not. I like to sit and watch my videos on my 32" Hi Def as I'm capturing the tape to my RLE. I typically have been seeing one or two almost every tape. What I see, & I assume it's what you refer to as drop outs, is the picture freezes for a second or two and than picks up again. I'm pretty sure as it stopped and started, I missed a couple seconds of video. Since I heard so many glowing reports about using a Panasonic brand, I was considering the switch but I hate to go through the hassle because I've read from other posts, that I should have it professionally cleaned before I switch. Oh, by the way, I have been using Sony Premium exclusively. One good reason for that, is the brand is available at Walmart. I've been out on a shooting gig where I took 30 tapes and ran low and was able to run to Walmart to pick more up. If I switch to a brand that I can't pick up at a store like Walmart, I would need to make sure I kept a buffer of 20 or 30 extra tapes all the time. Shooting music as I do, the skip is going to be noticeable unless I do a fade out and fade in at the point of the skip, so it is a little irritating.

The bottom line from what you are saying is probably it's not worth me going through the hassle of switching brands and that I should just plan on living with the skip somewhere on just about every tape. I immagine the reason we haven't had this brought up is because 99 percent of the people here shooting or not shooting 40 to 60 minute non stop like I am. Plus the fact that I thought it was just my brand of tape that was causing this problem. I'd love to know if you find a brand that seems to very rarely have a skip in a long shoot. I'd love to see a report on someone who did several tests on the now famous for no flaws - Panasonic brand tapes. Believe me if it was reported that after 3 or 4 1 hour tests as you suggest, the findings showed no dropouts with the Panasonic, someone please give me a URL where to buy these puppies at a decent price and I'll order my first 100 of them. You sure don't find them at Walmart, SAMS, Walgreens, Target, etc. By the way, the best price I saw on tapes was at SAMS but I wasn't about to switch after all the posts about not switching tape brands. I believe SAMS had Maxell priced at about 8 for $24.

Hey, I just had a brainstorm. If the HV20 is prone to doing this because of the long non stop taping, I could find a convenient place to stop and start the tape about every 10 minutes or so. It might be the camera is just having problems with long non stops. Another thought I had, I will propose is that could taking a photo while your taping cause this problem. I found out that I could press the photo button while I taped and get some still shots. It seems when I did this, the still weren't of the quality that they would be if I stopped taping and switched to the photo mode but I had sometimes been pushing the photo button as I taped. Anybody?

[Ian-T]

....could taking a photo while your taping cause this problem. I found out that I could press the photo button while I taped and get some still shots. It seems when I did this, the still weren't of the quality that they would be if I stopped taping and switched to the photo mode but I had sometimes been pushing the photo button as I taped. Anybody?One would think that this is could contribute to the problem but I am constantly pressing the photo button while trying to get my exposure reading (I have a lot of unwanted photos stored) and I currently have not had any dropouts. Then again I have been using the same tapes over and over again (recording over the previous footage).

[24Peter]

I probably average 1 dropout per tape. Headcleaning helped reduce that from 3-4. I am reusing old tapes right now since most of the stuff I'm shooting is for fun/tests/family stuff (as opposed to short films or weddings). Panasonic MQ tapes. I could probably run the headcleaner again and have no dropouts. I don't consider this a defect of the camera; rather a by-product of HDV recording.

[John Watson]

I've got through 8 one hour tapes and, although most of my takes are only 1-2 minutes long, I've not noticed any dropouts yet. I'll pay more attention from now on but if I understand correctly how they would appear (one scene basically broken into 2 parts in the NLE) then I'm fairly convinced I've not had any.

Used JVC DV60 and maxell 60 DV tapes so far.

[LuckyLindy]

What I see, & I assume it's what you refer to as drop outs, is the picture freezes for a second or two and than picks up again. I'm pretty sure as it stopped and started, I missed a couple seconds of video.


I had the same "picture freeze"--the video would stop and freeze in place for up to a half second or so, then immediately leap ahead with no intervening blackout (or "blueout")--so I am not sure if this is a "dropout" or "leap ahead!" This happened on three brands of tape--Sony Hi Def and TDK and Panasonic normal mini tapes. I exchanged it within the 14-day period at Best Buy--have taped an hour on the new one with no repeat occurance--so perhaps it is the camera.

[xcgeek]

I use Panasonic DVC regular tapes (non HD) and haven't ever noticed a drop-out. I shoot mainly short clips, but have done one hour long sequence and didn't notice anything. Will have to pay closer attention maybe.

[24Peter]

I had the same "picture freeze"--the video would stop and freeze in place for up to a half second or so, then immediately leap ahead with no intervening blackout (or "blueout")--so I am not sure if this is a "dropout" or "leap ahead!" This happened on three brands of tape--Sony Hi Def and TDK and Panasonic normal mini tapes. I exchanged it within the 14-day period at Best Buy--have taped an hour on the new one with no repeat occurance--so perhaps it is the camera.

"Picture freeze" = HDV dropout (no black or blue screen). Canon ships (some of) their cameras with dirty heads. (They also sell DSLR's with dirt on the sensor.) Running a couple of tapes through the camera usually cleans the heads. For more stubborn gunk, you need to run a cleaning tape (for 10 seconds!). Not a defect of the camera. But poor quality control IMO.

[AV8R]

Hi everyone.

Has anyone else experienced this, I bought my camera new 6 weeks ago, have recorded maybe 30 mins of footage and last night when I went to record....nothing just blue screen. So i tried to playback and all I got was pixels and huge lines across the screen!!!!!....So i tried to record again and this time it said "dirty heads use cleaning cassette".......after 30 min of recording!!!!!!!.....WOW!!!!....I think its time to look at other Camcorder models!!....I thought Canon was better than that!!!!

thanks for any response on this.

Jay

[24Peter]

Read the other posts on this topic Jay. Your heads probably arrived dirty. Run a couple of tapes through. If you still get drop outs, run a cleaning tape. In the meantime write Canon with your displeasure at them selling cameras with dirty heads.

[sp8ce07]

Make sure you are not switching DV brands left and right - and you keep your camera stored in an environment free of dust, etc. Also - when you are done recording, take the DV tape out, and store it.

[angelo913]

I'm using Panasonic MiniDV Advanced Master AY-DVM63AMQ for HDV/DV without any dropouts.

...Angelo

[Murrelet]

I'm using Sony DVC Premium 60's (DVM60PRL) and get drop out maybe once, twice a tape. I haven't cleaned the heads yet or run the more expensive DVM63HD's (I will when I get better, expensive tapes these). For me there are no blackouts, just a short bit missing, all very smooth. And yes, I remove the tapes. Like bluegrass says, I use Sony Premium's as they are everywhere at a reasonable cost.

[dasbin]

I've been experiencing the same with with regular Fuji DVC tapes, except most of the dropouts appear to be happening upon playback rather than recording. In other words, if you re-capture the section of footage where the dropout occured, you might just find it working fine the second time round.
No idea why this is. Ran cleaning tapes several times and the HV20 basically just makes a funny noise for 2 seconds then tells me to eject the tape. No improvements.

[mrob7]

I had the same "picture freeze"--the video would stop and freeze in place for up to a half second or so, then immediately leap ahead with no intervening blackout (or "blueout")--so I am not sure if this is a "dropout" or "leap ahead!" This happened on three brands of tape--Sony Hi Def and TDK and Panasonic normal mini tapes. I exchanged it within the 14-day period at Best Buy--have taped an hour on the new one with no repeat occurance--so perhaps it is the camera.like this?
http://hv20.info/yopu/Dropout.wmv

[Numbox]

I've had my HV20 for about 3-4 months, shot about 5 tapes all together, some were used full in one shot, but most not. Had none dropped frames whatsoever until now. The thing is, Vegas reports 0 dropped frames but still splits the file in 10 scenes. HDV Split reports dropped frames but splits the file in 3 scenes. What's up with that?

Also, is there any other way to clean the cam besides cleaning tape? It's currently unavailable to me and i need to fix this asap. :hv20-smilie119:

[roadsideron]

I bought my HV20 last month and drove to Chicago from San Diego and back while shooting footage in southern Utah. I attached the camcorder to a tripod and strapped it to the passenger seat. I shot four tapes and I noticed that when viewing on my HD TV using the component connection that every 5 or ten minutes I would get a second or two of freeze. I also videotaped my granddaughter in Chicago for about 10 minutes and captured that to hard drive. When I went to edit it it had a section of a second or two of freeze. I thought that might be due to dropped frames, but now I know it happened during capture. I emailed Canon about this today and I wonder how they will respond to this. I create educational videos and this random freezing is unacceptable to me. It was a close call between the Sony HD and the Canon. I hope I'm not going to be sorry for buying the Canon instead of the Sony.

[Erik Bien]

Hi ron,

The HDV compression used by the HV20 (and every other HDV camera) relies on so-called "long-GOP" compression, compressing a "long group of pictures" at the same time, rather than frame-by-frame as previous formats such as DV have done.

This means a single tape dropout will honk up as many as 15 frames, which results in a half-second of footage gone, where the same dropout in DV would be no more than a "glitch" in a single frame.

As this thread (and others) have suggested, a cleaning tape is probably a shrewd investment, and new owners would be well advised to run a "practice" tape or three through the camera before shooting anything critical (I seem to recall most tapes have a leader intended to act as a gentle head cleaner).

Beyond that, you're looking at professional cleaning and the last time I called the local Canon rep they told me that would require shipping the camera to the factory service center.

[roadsideron]

Hi, Erik.

The tapes in question were the 5th and 6th tapes I recorded on the way back home from Chicago. The one with my granddaughter in it was the fourth tape I recorded with this camera. I just got a reply from Canon and they told me to reseat the battery and the backup battery and see if that helps. I doubt it. I will get a head cleaning tape and try that. I don't have a screw driver small enough to fit the head of the Phillips screw where I think the backup battery is located, in the bottom of the camera. This is not good. I've owned several Sony camcorders and I have a GS400 Panasonic 3 CCD camcorder. I only got the Canon because I wanted to move up to HD. I'm not looking forward to shipping my camcorder to Canon for any extended length of time. That sort of thing is not supposed to happen when you purchase a brand new item.

[bluegrass]

Like Eric pointed out. HDV is a whole new ballgame. Hits on on frame will show up a lot more than on DV. I am hearing the same problems of dropouts with other HV cameras too. From the amount of dropouts you were seeing while watching the tapes play from the camera, I think you have rather bad case of a dirty head that will be taken care of by a head cleaning tape. I have also heard that sometimes the cameras wind up getting shipped new with a dirty head occasionally. Try cleaning the head, doing some testing and let us know how it went.

[guy bagnall]

I have been shooting my first tape with an HV20 and getting the 'freezing' really badly. I find it totally unacceptable that Canon ship a new camera with dirty heads as people are suggesting - completely ridiculous and they should be absolutely ashamed of themselves, what on earth are they thinking of? A disgrace. They don't even include a head-cleaning tape in the box which my cheap old Panasonic did. I would be happy to join in a letter to Canon from those of us affected , they deserve very bad press for such treatment of customers.

[VideJo]

Provided it is true, what some people say, that Canon occasionally ships cams with dirty heads.

[guy bagnall]

Having checked the tape the freeze was not on the first 15 minutes of footage, shot over three days, but on yesterday's footage it is on almost every shot, getting worse as the day wore on, with chunks of the action missing. That is possibly more worrying. If it eliminates dirty heads from the start of recording, at least in this case, on the other hand it may not be solved by using a head-cleaning tape.

And I have heard that repeated use wears the heads, does anyone know anything about that?

I am using panasonic pro dvm 63PQ tape, which I have found very reliable for modest dv on a panasonic camera. Has anyone had problems with these tapes on the hv20?

I am only shooting test shots to get used to the camera at the moment but I would hate to shoot for real and have this freezing ruin footage shot in earnest. I did forget the end search and recorded over some stuff but that shouldn't be a cause, should it?

[24Peter]

Like Eric pointed out. HDV is a whole new ballgame. Hits on on frame will show up a lot more than on DV. I am hearing the same problems of dropouts with other HV cameras too. From the amount of dropouts you were seeing while watching the tapes play from the camera, I think you have rather bad case of a dirty head that will be taken care of by a head cleaning tape. I have also heard that sometimes the cameras wind up getting shipped new with a dirty head occasionally. Try cleaning the head, doing some testing and let us know how it went.

I concur here. Sony (and all other) HDV camera's are also suseptible to 1/2 second or more drop outs. Get a cleaning tape. Run it for 10 seconds (don't rewind it!). Shoot some more tape. If there's still a problem, running the cleaning tape again for 10 seconds (don't rewind it!). If you're still having problems, try one more cleaning - or just send it in for service.

My camera was pretty bad droput-wise when it was new. But after two or three 10 second cleanings and a few tapes it was (and is) fine. If you're unhappy about getting a new camera with dirty heads, let Canon know!

[VideJo]

I have been thinking over this issue. Now as the footage is capured in mpeg, the format is in GOP's. Now I was wondering: if you press the red button within a GOP, what will the cam do? It can not finish the complete group of pictures. Will it then freeze?

[24Peter]

I think Canon anticipated that. I suspect it doesn't stop recording the moment you hit the red button - it will probably finish the long GOP recording. On the other hand, I do notice a picture freeze at the end of many of my recordings, though it is longer than the 1/2 sec freeze seen with a dropout and usually at the location of the last recording on a tape, so assume it's something else that causes that. (My DV camera - which doesn't use long GOP encoding - also froze at the end of a tape.)

If you're really concerned, just wait a second or two until after the action you want to record is complete before hitting the red button.

[Erik Bien]

LOL

I bet that's the single most common first-time director mistake; they see the first good take and excitedly holler "Cut!"

(Then someone explains that next time they should count slowly in their head to three or four to avoid the scowls from the crew!)

[guy bagnall]

I did forget the end search and recorded over some stuff but that shouldn't be a cause, should it?

I am beginning to wonder if recording over the last shot is causing the freeze, at least on my camera? I have done it a couple of times (my own fault, forgetting end search doesn't work when the tape has been taken out) and it does seem to trigger the dreaded freeze and not be there otherwise.

I always understood 'drop-out' to be a glitch on a single frame, which is bearable, but to lose half a second or more of action is insane, surely this can't be a permissible fault with HDV?

I don't mind trying the head-cleaning tape but I can't see the logic of why that should cure it - especially as my first recordings didn't suffer so it can't have simply been dirty heads from the start.

I would be grateful for a logical explanation.

[bluegrass]

[QUOTE=guy bagnall;18211]I am beginning to wonder if recording over the last shot is causing the freeze, at least on my camera? I have done it a couple of times (my own fault, forgetting end search doesn't work when the tape has been taken out) and it does seem to trigger the dreaded freeze and not be there otherwise.

surely this can't be a permissible fault with HDV?QUOTE]

of course it's an undesired thing to see in your videos but it does occur occasionally, unless you are very lucky. the half second loss is definitely the result of a defective frame and the HDV format. you just never noticed it in the DV format since you could hardly notice one dropped frame versus a bunch when it occurs with an HDV tape.

[blondandfun]

i bought a package of 6 JVC regular miniDV tapes for only like $30 bucks and I am getting 1-2 droputs per minute. With Panasonic HD miniDV tapes I got about 2 dropouts total per tape. I WILL NOT BUY JVC EVER AGAIN!!!!

[w.pasman]

I'm using Panasonic standard DV tapes: DMV60.
I had a few dropouts. Yesterday I had two on a half-an hour video consisting of many short shots. One disappeared when I retried to capture the fragment. The other one still had the dropout in the retry.

I also used Fuji DMV60 tapes. Seems they have less problems.

[w.pasman]

i bought a package of 6 JVC regular miniDV tapes for only like $30 bucks

What, "only"?? I paid $12.99 for a 5-pack Panasonics.

[Redsandro]

I recorded probably a number of hours altogether on my HV20, with shots ranging from 5 seconds to 20 minutes.

I noticed 3 dropouts where I didn't want them, where I miss about 2 seconds of data. But maybe it's the capture, because when a GOP goes wrong, in theory I should miss 12 frames at the most.

[2Bdecided]

What I don't understand is why we lose the entire GOP, video and audio. On digital broadcasts, errors cause visible picture defects and pops in the sound, but the data has to be lost more or less completely for the picture to freeze or disappear, ditto the sound.

I can't believe every error on an HDV tape causes complete loss of data, so it seems that the camera is sensing an error, and freezing the picture and muting the sound to prevent us seeing the actual error.

However, I don't know about you, but I could deal with a click or pop in the sound a lot more easily than 1/2 second of silence!

Similarly, I bet I could often deal with a picture glitch more easily than a 1/2 second picture freeze.

Cheers,
David.

[Redsandro]

So true! Haven't thought of that. Indeed.. why do we miss those parts totally, instead of just a glitch?

Is HV20 capable of doing firmware upgrades? If anything, it will be soothing to know that there's a possibility that there might be a fix someday.

[w.pasman]

I vaguely remember that, depending on which format you shoot, frames are coded BIdirectionally, using both earlier and later frames as references. So if you loose one frame, both frames before and after that point loose reference info.
If I remember right, 720p mode uses only earlier frames and 1080 modes use both directions.
If you loose a key frame, you thus may loose TWO times 15(?) or 30 frames, which is about a second.

[DoctaD]

My son has been having a similar problem with his HV20. Using Panasonic DV/M60 tapes. Initial tape was great, but now it is dropping for moments to seconds. VERY FRUSTRATING!! The heads appear clean. Haven't run a cleaning tape through it yet.

[icarusi]

What I don't understand is why we lose the entire GOP, video and audio. On digital broadcasts, errors cause visible picture defects and pops in the sound, but the data has to be lost more or less completely for the picture to freeze or disappear, ditto the sound.

I can't believe every error on an HDV tape causes complete loss of data, so it seems that the camera is sensing an error, and freezing the picture and muting the sound to prevent us seeing the actual error.

However, I don't know about you, but I could deal with a click or pop in the sound a lot more easily than 1/2 second of silence!

Similarly, I bet I could often deal with a picture glitch more easily than a 1/2 second picture freeze.

Cheers,
David.

If a keyframe is dropped it's a full GOP dropout. If a intermediate frame is dropped there's more for the codec to work a correction. I suspect the audio isn't directly effected but to preserve sync it's muted and unmuted after resyncing with the video. It may be worth a try unmuxing video and audio if the sound is more useful than the video.

[Kostushock]

Tried Sony DVM-63HD: usually about 2 dropouts per 1 hour tape.
Tried Panasonic AY-DVM63PQ: the same result.
Tried Sony Premium (usial DV): much more dropouts.

[Mrpc9886]

My first paid shoot was last month and because of my paranoia over just such an event as dropouts (it was a dance class performance of 2 45 minute sessions) I shot it on tape while capturing to my laptop via firewire.

I think I will continue to do so wherever possible. Perhaps a Firestore purchase is in order with the tape(s) to be regarded as 'live' backup.

[24Peter]

I am also consistently getting 2-4 dropouts per 1 hr tape after 1) several months of use and 2) four 10 sec head cleanings. I have used only Panasonic MQ (now AMQ) tapes from the start. This is the only thing I don't like about my HV20. Can't wait for a tapeless version of the camera! :hv20-smilie36:

[Frank]

I feel really fortunate; I have yet to experience a single dropout (Great- now I just cursed myself).

[HalD]

As long as there have been miniDV camcorders there have been drop-out problems. Reference this John Beal archived web site thread on the subject circa 2000. It may be old, but there is a lot of good info there on the whys and wherefores of tape useage.
Two things that will help prevent drop-outs;
1. Don't switch brands of tape - stick with one brand, for the life of the camera.
2. NEVER re-use tapes. @ $2.50 they are cheaper than a tape deck cleaning.
If you don't agree - YMMV

[VideJo]

Drop-outs is one thing and frame-freeze is the effect of this discussion, if I am not wrong.
Because I have never changed tape-type or -brand during my DV years, I have hardly seen any drop-outs. Maybe a couple of digitising-blocks, but that is all.
During the last three weeks I have been shooting 5 tapes in IndoChina and I did review them on the end of every day. In several case I have encountered a frame-freeze, but I am curious, whether these freezes will still be present on the pc after capturing. Will see. But anyway, I have made the shots longer in order to cut of the freeze and not end up with shots that are too short.

[Krane]

I've was taught that drop out was a product of the tapes quality, not the camera? In any event, I'm convinced a quality tape is is the way to go, because it less likely to degrade over time. Therefore, I've alway purchased the highest quality tapes I can find. I use Canon's own premium HDV brand tapes and have not yet experienced any drop outs.

[w.pasman]

I cleaned the head for a few seconds and even my cheapest panasonic DV tapes are performing without problems now.

[alwyn]

Just had my first one (well, the first one that I have spotted...). It was with a brand new JVC tape (apart from being "striped").

It was a shot of a ballet concert segment, and I can't edit out the dropout - a real nuisance, as it's blemished the video.

Not knowing anything about cleaning tapes (I put 200 tapes, most re-used, thru my Sony Digital 8 over 8 years with no dropouts and no cleaning tapes), what are the recommendations for brands?

[rally]

First 40mins of record and playback no issues. Went out another day and it dropped out through the whole day. Several 2-4 min clips and a few longer shots. most short clips had 1-4 freezes (both video and audio). Used only Sony HD tapes. Once I got back home, did 3x10 Sec head cleans (1st clean did not fix the issue) and using another new Sony HD tape, seems to have gone away now. Fingers crossed. I get to use Sony HDV's for my work and have never had these issues before.

I'm thinking it could be heat related? It was a warm day / outside when I had the issues. Also a resonable amount of wind around the camera - posible tape movement as the tape bay is not sealed. (note, be very careful of dust with this unit).

[M43]

how to know if you have a drop out

[w.pasman]

I put 200 tapes, most re-used, thru my Sony Digital 8 over 8 years with no dropouts and no cleaning tapes

I have seen warnings against reusing tapes. But if you put through 200 tapes it may well be worth to try a cleaning tape. Remember that you need to run the cleaning tape only a few seconds. Maybe you can borrow one, they are pretty expensive and I dont think anyone will ever use an entire cleaning tape

[Frank_S]

Got my new HV20 2 days ago. I'm using the cheap costo TDK DVC ($2.5 each) tape. I did a test of a continuous shot for an hour. The footage was captured using Adobe Premier CS3. The following are what I found.

1. The tape is rated as 60 minutes instead of 63 minutes. I actually shot the footage for 1 hour 1 minute and 4 seconds. The first 60 minutes were perfect - no dropout at all. However, I do noticed 2 drop out after 1 hour (1:00:17 and 1:00:56). Inspection of the captured footage (in PC)comfirmed the 2 dropout.

2. I rewinded the tape again to replay the last minute. However, the second time playback did not show any drop out at all.

3. It seems that the tape is unreliable only when the recording time exceed the rated spec of the tape. It's OK to me. However I only test one tape. Need to shot more to confirm this.

4. Although I did found 2 dropout but the Adobe Premier cannot find our any drop frame. It's clear that the "drop frame" defined by Premier is limited to the condition that the stream video was sent to firewire/PC but it was missed due to the slow PC performance. If all the frame captured by 1394 were stored in PC it will be recoginized as "0 drop frame" even though some of the captured frame are corrupted.

Therefore, I had to watch the footage (in PC) by myself carefully for an hour to confirm where is the dropout.

Hope this helps.

Frank_S

[Alliedsign]

I placed an order for the HD20 from B&H last night, after doing what I thought was a decent amount of due dilligence, only to stumble over this thread this morning. This seems like a big issue to me, and I'll bet B&H will let me cancel since it hasn't shipped yet.

But before I cancel...has anyone actually tried recording not in HDV, but in regular DV mode, and if so is this drop-out/freezing phenomenon unique to HDV?

I've read around the net that the HD20 produces great PQ in standard dv mode. Last spring I upgaded my home theater to a PS3 Blueray hooked to a Pioneer 5070 which upscalers beautifully, and I occasionally rent standard (non-Blueray) DVD's that look to me as good as Blueray. So if I can avoid dropouts by avoiding HDV (for awhile until firmware or editing software hopefully solves this) then I might have a more enjoyable video experience overall by avoiding HDV.

If no one has looked into this, could someone with a HV20 experiment to see if there are dropouts in std def?

[2Bdecided]

On all tape-based camcorders, you will sometimes get drop-outs.

With DV, pictures are stored as individual frames, so a single drop out effects some parts of one frame.

With HDV, pictures are stored as MPEG-2 streams, the smallest independent part being a GOP (Group of Pictures) which lasts 12-15 frames. Therefore a single drop out can affect 12-15 frames.


Most DV systems try to hide the error by duplicating the bad part from the previous frame. This is sometimes invisible, and sometimes causes visible blockiness in single frames.

Most HDV systems try to hide the error by freeze-framing the last good frame. This causes a picture freeze for 12-15 frames.


This is all independent of the camcorder, and has nothing to do with the HV20. Buy a Sony FX1 and you will experience exactly the same issues.

Some people get good results with expensive HD tapes. Some people get good results with standard DV tapes.

Few people get good results if they keep changing the brand of tape they use!


FWIW there are DV decoders which will flag the damaged parts of a DV frame/stream (Cedocida will do it). You might be surprised that even "perfect" DV footage can contain this damage, but it is invisible because nothing changed between frames.

It would be nice if there was a way of getting the "damaged" HDV stream out of the camera so that the damage could be patched intelligently, rather than having the damage replaced with a freeze frame of the last good frame in-camera. Maybe there is something about the HDV format that makes this impossible.


Finally, I don't think you'll be happy with SD when you've seen HD, unless you don't have your HDTV connected properly! The SD from the HV20 is nice, but looks soft compared with HD.

Cheers,
David.

[Numbox]

Just use the cleaning tape before you transfer the material from tape to pc. Works for me :hv20-smilie71:

[NJer]

Just use the cleaning tape before you transfer the material from tape to pc. Works for me :hv20-smilie71:

Same here. Shot 5 min out of the box, found one drop out. Then I clean the head for 10 sec with cleaning tape, no drop out for the next 30+ mins. The tape was TDK MiniDV.

[goldenmultimedia]

Hi all,
Here are my unfortunate dropout findings...

I have a new Canon HV20 that I use with both Premiere Pro CS3 and the latest Final Cut Pro (studio) 2. I have used exclusively one kind of tape - the Sony Premium DVM60PR3 miniDV tapes (in the orange wrapper). My computer is new, has 4GB of RAM and dual quad-core processors.

At first I used Final Cut Pro to edit a wedding (in 24p mode) and had audio drift issues. The begining was fine, but later on the audio was not synced properly and I had to manually align it a few times. I thought at the time that it was due to the reverse telecine pulldown process to get true 24p (I use Apple's process using compressor).

However, now I am working on another project using the default 30i with Premiere Pro CS3 and found that during playback on the camera, there are a few spots where the video appears to freeze for a second, then continues playing normally after that. The problem (as many others have noted) is that Premiere Pro does not handle this well, and the audio and video get out of sync. Manually re-aligning them does help, but that lost second of video is gone for good. Premiere reports 0 dropped frames.

So the issue at hand is a hardware problem with the camera or tapes. However, I have been using these tapes for years with a Sony HDV camcorder (HDR-HC3) and have never experienced this problem. This is NOT "normal" HDV behavior (in my opinion), and I doubt it is the tapes.

In my latest CS3 project, there were two dropouts or freezes on the tape (the dropout locations are visible on the camera's viewfinder and do not change). One was right at the begining, and the other about 30 minutes in. The camera was on a tripod and not touched at the time of the problems (I don't use the still camera feature at all).

Premiere Pro CS3 handled the audio problem so badly that it kep repeating the audio from the begining of the tape multiple times later on. So basically the audio from the begining of the tape plays three times total... once at the begining (out of sync), once in the middle, and once again at the end (obviously very out of sync).

I will be filming again today and will try the cleaning tape first. Since it seems to be happening a few times per tape, I am hoping this test will let me know if I need to return this camera or just clean it very frequently. The problem is that I can't afford for this problem to happen in the middle of a take. You don't know it has happened until after you have left the studio and the talent has gone home.

As I mentioned before, this HV20 is new, and I have only recorded about 7 tapes - hardly the amount of use that you would think would require cleaning. I love the 24p and video quality of the Canon, but I have to consider going back to Sony.

Has anyone returned their camera and gotten better results with the new one?

- Kent

[Rentakill]

Im using the Sony HD 63 min MiniDV - DVM63HD tapes, Ive had my cam for over 2 months with no dropouts or freeze ups as yet (touch wood). Ive shot over 5 tapes so far........:hv20-smilie09:

[goldenmultimedia]

Hi again,
Here's an update...

I ran a Sony cleaning tape through (recorded for 10-12 seconds) and shot about 40 minutes of tape.

I am happy to report that there were no dropouts/freezes!

Of course 40 minutes is a little too short to be definitive, but I am hopeful. In past tapes, I was getting at least 2 per tape.

My next filming is in a few weeks, and I'll be sure to post the results.

- Kent

[Jazz]

Greetings:

So has this dropped frames problem been resolved on the latest batch of HV20?

I bought my HV20 from B&H back in December and although I've only recorded one full tape, I didn't get any dropped frames when I transferred it to my laptop. My Laptop is nothing fancy (WinXP) and the transferring when directly to an external USB drive.

Hoping this is not a problem anymore,
James

[nolonemo]

I've read around the net that the HD20 produces great PQ in standard dv mode.

I would not get an HV20 to shoot SD. Take a look at the Panasonic GS500

Pros of GS500
Better SD PQ than HV20
MUCH less motor noise than HV20
Superior manual audio gain control
Better handling (IMO)

Cons of GS500
Much worse low light performance than HV20
Can't shoot HDV if you change your mind. :hv20-smilie84:

[NJer]

Greetings:

So has this dropped frames problem been resolved on the latest batch of HV20?

I bought my HV20 from B&H back in December and although I've only recorded one full tape, I didn't get any dropped frames when I transferred it to my laptop. My Laptop is nothing fancy (WinXP) and the transferring when directly to an external USB drive.

Hoping this is not a problem anymore,
James

I bought HV20 from amazon.com right before last Christmas, I saw drop out in my last tape.

[goldenmultimedia]

Hi again,
Update #2:

After originally getting 2-4 dropouts every tape, I used a Sony cleaning tape before each shoot (recorded 10 seconds) and have not had a dropout since (keeping fingers crossed).

I am still surprised that it needs cleaning at all so soon in its lifespan (it's only been used a few times), but if that's what fixes the issue I'm fine with it.

Hope this info is useful to others!

- Kent

[icarusi]

I've been experiencing the same with with regular Fuji DVC tapes, except most of the dropouts appear to be happening upon playback rather than recording. In other words, if you re-capture the section of footage where the dropout occured, you might just find it working fine the second time round.

I'll give that a try. The footage I recorded immediately prior to a complete no-go played back ok after a headclean.

I noticed an adjacent couple of 'black' frames in some recent footage. Usually I've had freeze-frames, which are less visually disruptive, so don't know what these frames are. I'll also check what the HV20 LCD screen shows when I capture that part.

[jjfoto]

I am using Adobe CS 3, I read many posts saying that Adobe captures without any errors or dropped frames, but the audio is not in sync when I tried to edit in CS 3. When I view the captured MPEG in VLC it shows up well, but there are some glitches/drop outs or whatever is the best way to call it.

When recapturing I noticed that my HV20 causes to freeze for a second and then plays on... but it looks like it's not at the same spot. It was around 7 minutes the first time. CS cannot read beyond this and will go out of sync. I don't know what is the exact problem... cause to me it can be anything. CS doesn't do a good job, but is not totally to blame, because the HV20 freezes for a second, couple of times....
but is it the HV20 or is it the tape itself. Is it a combination of a slow computer with the cam, the tape and the software.... I really dont know.

To me it looks like it's in the playback of the HV20, but I have to test it again.

Right now the capture of this 45 minute mini-DV is not going well while using CS 3 and it looks I'm not the only one having this prob. I taped about ten tapes, everytime a new one and same brand.

My main problem (right now) is getting the audio in sync in Adobe, anyone got a idea?

the video concerned (http://vimeo.com/639982) now is exported from Adobe, then converted in Media Encoder and then uploaded to vimeo. But the video is definitely not ok while viewed and edited in Adobe CS 3

Update: I tried capture with HDVSplit and then import the m2t file into Adobe Premiere CS 3, but it still won't sync the audio after the dropout. This is actually quite frustrating, cause maybe sometimes you can accept the dropout, but I sure cannot accept that I can not get it in sync with Adobe. When viewing the file in VLC of course, it continues perfect after the dropout error.
I will now try and convert the m2t file to an avi file and see if that will fix the sync-problem in Adobe. But if that's the case, it will take everytime an extra conversion of probably some hours. Not having fun now :-(

[goldenmultimedia]

Hi jjfoto,
If you read my first post in this thread (#59 called "My Dropout Details"), you will see that I have the exact same problem.

Here is the solution: Even though your camera may be new - The HV20 recording head needs to be cleaned with a regular miniDV cleaning tape (I used a Sony). Put the tape in, put the HV20 in record mode, then record for about 10 seconds. Tapes that have already been recorded will still have the glitch, but new tapes should now be fine.

If you are getting "dropouts" at different spots every time (while playing a tape), it is your playhead that is dirty, and you should also put your camera into "Play" mode and run the cleaning tape for 10 seconds.

What makes the problem worse (as you have noticed) is that Adobe Premiere Pro CS3 handles those little pauses terribly. The sound gets way out of sync. The problem is not your computer or the tapes.

To fix the video that you have the glitches with - you can either "unlink" the audio and video bars in PP CS3, razor blade the bars right at the glitch and then drag the audio bar around to sync things back up.

You can also re-capture to avoid the problem: Let's say you have a glitch in the middle of the tape... capture the first half as one clip, then fast forward past the glitch and encode the second half as a second clip. This will avoid the sync issues.

Hope this helps. Good luck!

- Kent

[w.pasman]

Just use the cleaning tape before you transfer the material from tape to pc.

Before every transfer? That will give you excessive wear on the heads!

[Jazz]

Before every transfer? That will give you excessive wear on the heads!
That's what I thought. The head cleaning tapes are abrasive.

[tvshopper]

If I am using the camera for nothing more than shooting family video and showing the tapes directly on my TV will I be experiencing these dropouts? Or, is it strictly an importing issue? (I am assuming this is a stupid question so bear with me. Thanks.)

[jjfoto]

Hi Goldenmultimedia,

Thanx for answering my questions. The dropouts are on the same spot, so it's in the recording/on the tape itself.

I will try to get it in sync with the use of the razorblade in CS 3.

How do I know where those dropouts are, cause otherwise I have to view my videos everytime before exporting, that again takes up more time than should be necessary?

Using a cleaning tape seems kinda weird since it's a new camera. But if that will do the trick, I'm fine with that. But my concern with that is the same as the replies after your posting (excessive wear on the heads, cleaning tapes are abrasive) about how good is this for the cams heads???

Update: I just bought a sony cleaning tape today (feb 1st), but it says on the packing only to use it with play, not that you can use it to record for 10 seconds???


to tvshopper: if you have dropouts like I have, than it's being recorded and it will show on your tv. When I play my camera it will freeze a frame and than jumps forward and continues as normal. Importing these dropouts can be difficult when using CS 3 for example, cause your audio goes out of sync right after the dropout. This problem is not on your TV, there the audio will continue to be just fine, in sync with the video.

[goldenmultimedia]

Hi jjfoto,
There are 2 ways you can find out where the drouputs are:
1. watch the tape as it is being encoded (tedious!)
2. After encoding, play a bit of the clip at the end and see if the audio is out of sync. If it is, go to the half way mark, then the quarter mark. Keep going back towards the begining until the audio is normal. Eventually you will locate it.

As for the abrasion from the cleaning tape - I am hoping this is not something that has to be done often. Maybe every 5 tapes or so? But I'm just guessing. The directions do say not to clean the heads more than 4 times *in a row*, so I would think that occasional use would be ok.

Yes - you are right, the Sony DVM-12CLD tape does say "Do not use this cassette for recording". So I guess just try playing it. Although I can report that running it through on record didn't seem to hurt the camera.

Good luck - let us know if the cleaning tape does the trick for you.

- Kent

[goldenmultimedia]

Hi again,
Bad update: Well, the cleaning tape seemed to help at first, but over the weekend I shot a wedding and just saw at least 2 dropouts on the second tape (I ran the cleaning tape right before the wedding). Once was during the cutting of the cake, and another during the father-daughter dance. How terrible.

I must say this is very disappointing, especially since many times I am only using one camera (there are no second takes in a wedding) and I can no longer count on this camera.

How very sad for a camera that is otherwise excellent.

While looking for the warranty card I found a blue and white slip of paper in about 10 languages titled "About Dirty Video Heads and HDV Standard Recordings", which basically describes the dropouts we are having. It says to clean the heads with a cleaning tape (obviously I've tried that) and to use the Canon HDVM-E63PR tapes. It then says that "If the problem persists even after taking these steps, the cause may be a malfunction. Consult a Canon Service Center".

So it sounds like they are aware of the problem. Has anyone had a better experience after sending their camera in for repair or replacement?

I don't mind giving the tapes a shot, but has anyone actually used these tapes and eliminated the dropouts? Sony advertises that their HD tapes deliver 50% less droputs. Anyone tried them? They are about half the price of the Canon tapes (but still pricey at $8.50 a piece). Here's a link:

http://www.amazon.com/Sony-DVM36HD-MiniDV-Minute-Definition/dp/B0006IWQ4E/ref=pd_bbs_1?ie=UTF8&s=electronics&qid=1201927580&sr=8-1

- Kent

[Bob Sanders]

I have seen warnings against reusing tapes.

People seem to think that there is something wildly different in the way a cam corder tape functions as opposed to a normal VHS system or Dvhs system. This is not the case at all! Although the information that gets placed on the tape is slightly different from a normal VHS system, that's about the only difference. Technically speaking, they function in pretty much the same manor, and people re-use vhs tapes again and again.

As long as the tape is in good condition, it can be re-used as many times as the tapes stays in good condition. I have had tape-based camcorders for years and reused tapes up to 8 or 10 times with no issues what so ever.

In fact, if I have trouble with tapes, it's most often the NEW tapes that are the hell raisers. I will get the odd drop out and It seems that I need a head cleaning more often than not with a new tape. After it has been used once, I no further problems. I would suspect that the first use of a tape does a good job at "breaking it in", or something to that nature.

I am convinced that the people that start these silly rumors are the tape manufacturers themselves because it's better for business.

[Jazz]

I thought that it's best not to reuse tapes, at least for important stuff, because when you're not recording, the tape head is spinning in one spot which will cause a wear spot.

Also, does anyone "retention" their tapes? This would require fast forwarding to the end and then rewinding. You would do this with a new tape before first recording.

[Bob Sanders]

I thought that it's best not to reuse tapes, at least for important stuff, because when you're not recording, the tape head is spinning in one spot which will cause a wear spot.



This also happens on a plain ordinary vcr any time you hit the pause button while playing or recording. I can't for the life of me ever remember causing a "wear spot" in a vcr tape.

Of course if you re-use a tape enough times, just as with anything else it quite naturally WILL wear out,. But as I've stated before, I've used tape based cams for years and re-use tape all the time up to 10 times before I retire them.... never had a single problem yet. I even find the tapes MORE dependable after the first use.

[tvshopper]

This dropout issue is steering me away from the HV20 to the Sony HC7. I do not want to drop $625 on something that drops seconds of video.

[jjfoto]

I got the video in sync by doing it manually unlinking and using the razorblade. But the dropouts itself are bad... I talked to other people and they say a camera should not have this, maybe if the camera is old. But mine is brand new. I will try the cleaning tape, but as you mentioned later on, it didn''t work for you. So I really guess it's the camera and believe other people when they say to bring it back! This can be a problem, 'cause they probably gonna sent it back to Canon for repair and I don't wanna miss this cam. 'Cause for the rest it really is a beautifull camera!

When you find a solution I'd love to hear it of course! :-)

[Erik Bien]

Hi tvshopper, welcome to the forum!

Dropouts are a potentially serious issue with any HDV camcorder due to the long-GOP compression scheme of the format. The HC-7 will not be immune to cheap tapes or dirty recording heads.

[tvshopper]

Erik,

Thank you for the greeting. I am truly interested in the HV20 but the dropout issue scares me. How much of a consideration is it? I will only be using the camera for shooting family stuff. I have not read reports of the Sony having this problem but you say it will as well? I did read somewhere that HD tapes are not as prone to the issue. Fact or fiction?

[goldenmultimedia]

Hi jjfoto,
The cleaning tape helped, but I'm definitely still experiencomg problems.

I think the only two options left are to try the expensive HDV tapes (from Canon or Sony), or send it out to be repaired.

To be honest, I don't know if either of these will work - which is why I'd love to hear from someone who has experienced the dropouts and then resolved the problem with one of these avenues.

Anyone??

To Erik - I haven't used the Sony HDR-HC7, but I did use the previous model (the Sony HDR-HC3) for a few years (with the same Sony Premium tapes I am using now) and never had any dropouts.

It's reasonable to assume it can happen to any HDV camcorder, but I never saw it on the Sony.

To Tvshopper - if you are just shooting family stuff and playing it back on a TV - I wouldn't worry too much about the dropouts. But if you are editing your video (especially with Adobe Premiere CS3), the dropouts can be a real pain because they cause auio sync problems. Of course I'm hoping to eventually find out if my camera just needs a repair or the expensive tapes. I hear that other people never experience a problem. Guess I'm just lucky.

- Kent

[Fidel]

Since 2002 I am using TDK MiniDV 60 tapes in 3 different Canon camcorders with no problems at all.
I started using a Canon HV-20, for 8 different recording sesions ( 8 tapes of 1full hour recording not pause) and two tapes have audio dropout only Ivideo is OK), half and hour in one tape and in the second tape three different section of 3, 5 and 10 seconds.

[musicjunky]

I just started noticing dropouts on my last two tapes, I've had the camera since October, and have probably used about 15 tapes..

I have sticking with Panny's but sometimes switch between the PQ's and the EJ's(for personal and test stuff)

Even though both tapes are Panasonic, could my problem be from switching between the different qualities?

[jjfoto]

Found on Wikipedia:
"Interframe compression also means that a recording dropout in HDV can affect several frames of video rather than just one, since the compression introduces dependency between frames. Hence it is best to use high-quality tapes for HDV recording such as "master quality" Mini-DV or specially formulated HDV tapes, and limit the re-use of tapes. Some users have gotten good results with HDV using generic Mini-DV tapes, but this is not generally recommended."

So special tapes is still worth a try...

Also on the forum:
http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?t=50892&page=6

Conclusion:
Choose one brand of tape -- ideally the brand which matches your camcorder -- and stick with it

see post of Alister Chapman:
FACT: Tape heads wear to slightly different shapes depending on the tension, abrasion, lubrication and width of the tape passing over them, this is called profiling. Tape to head contact is not optimum until profiling has occurred.

FACT: Once the head has worn to the profile that a particular type of tape creates it will stay that approximate shape.

FACT: Changing the tape formulation/tension will cause the head to wear to a new profile.

FACT: Repeatedly changing tape formulations/tension will lead to increased head wear due to repeated head re-profiling.

FACT: Head to tape contact will not be optimum until profiling is completed each time.

FACT: During the profiling process more oxide is stripped from the tape and tiny amounts of head material are worn from the heads.

This is a well documented phenomenon, research by the IEEE, Sony, Maxel and I am sure others, so you choose, stick with one type of tape or chop and change.

And the post of Graig Yanagi:

Here's what perspective I can provide, having worked and involved with both hardware and media for two companies:

- There are manufacturers that produce both their respective media and hardware. With regards to HDV and DV, Sony and JVC design and build both. I have been informed Panasonic does, too.

- Specifications on tape formulation and tape path tension vary. Sony specifications call for a tape path that is more rigid/tense than JVC, and is considered unique to their equipment. JVC tape path tension is considered more mainstream in comparison.

- Tape formulation is designed to provide the best performance for the equipment they are specified to work with. A large number of physical characteristics are in play, from the amount and strength (physical and electronic) of magnetic particles/evaporated ingots being used, the resulting level of friction resulting from the coating process, to the rigidity of the resulting formulation. Back and top coating technology also play a vital role in the performance of the media. All of the formulations are quite involved and incur many years of R&D and fiscal investment. Imagine the amount of study that goes into just determining the best method of combating friction between the spinning recording drum head surface versus the magnetic tape layer.

- Optimization occurs when a single media formulation is used over time. This would explain how a camcorder/VTR that uses a single brand has little or no issues in operation. This would also be an explaination why a camcorder/VTR that constantly has multiple types of media being used doesn't fully become "engrained" and may not have any issues.

The negative results from using an alternate media brand after the camcorder/VTR has been optimized with a single brand can also be explained by this. I've experienced the latter many times over investigating defective media from broadcast customers when Betacam tapes were being returned for edge damage because the photog had to use a different brand on a shoot. The edge damage occured because the tape path width on the drumhead was optomized for Brand A, and Brand B's media was wider, causing the edge damage to occur. And, yes, even media slitting technology and specifications differ from manufacturer to manufacturer.

So, is there merit to the comment of using a single brand for the best results? I found this to be true. Is there such thing as an ideal match between media and hardware? That's what the manufaturers struggle to provide especially at the professional level because that's what shows the product, hardware and media, in the best light (i.e. to specifications).

Each person has their own reason and choice on what media to use. Hopefully the information above helps clarify some thoughts. One thing to remember, though, is that the content you shoot ultimately ends up on the media.

[tvshopper]

Well, I finally did it...I pulled the trigger and ordered an HV-20. I have decided that for the money and features, the risk of dropouts (especially given my use (family stuff only)) was worth taking. I will spend the extra bucks to use only Canon HD DV tapes and will clean the heads from time to time as preventitive medicine. I thank all that responded to my queries.

[Redsandro]

How come I get email about new posts that do not show up here?
Like Adriano about blaming the tape rewinder, which is quite interesting.

The last post I see is of february 5th, while the latest mail about this thread is 12th.

[jjfoto]

could u post that message from Adriano, Redsandro? I did not receive mail on this thread. thanx

[Redsandro]

Hi,

It was this (http://www.hv20.com/showthread.php?t=6759#post54191) post. I understand now that the post is gone by the hands of a moderator.

Adriano Apefos, you post this same message to 8 other threads.

[bonzo363]

Hello all, I just purchased my Canon HV20 about two weeks ago and I thought I'd post my findings here. The night after I opened it up initially, I set it up on a tripod in my room to take some test footage. I stuck a Panasonic AY-DVM63HD2 tape inside the camera and started to record about a minute of footage. I then played it back on my television and it came out great. I then took the tape out then placed it back into the camera the next night and took about 5 minutes of footage. I played it back on television and saw one dropout. Then, about 4 days later I put a new tape in the camera to film a movie with some friends.

We filmed footage using the AC wall adaptor, the camera's supplied battery, AND a third party Energizer battery. We filmed on the whole tape, all 63 minutes, and paused and recorded often. Our clips averaged about 2-10 minutes long. We also filmed in all conditions: inside a house, outside in a driveway on a tripod, a very cold night hand held indoors and outdoors. All of our footage was then played back from the beginning of the tape on the camera and transferred to our computer via firewire.. The result? Not one single dropout.

That same night, after that tape was full, we used another tape. We filmed from the beginning of that tape and took about 35 minutes of footage. 22-25 minutes of that was one single scene, no pausing or stopping. It was also filmed using the third party battery. Some other indoor footage, about 10 minutes long was put on there. We rewinded the tape, and put it on the computer. Again, not one single dropout.

So whether we filmed using an AC adaptor, the supplied battery, or a third party battery and in hot, cold, or windy conditions, we got no dropouts on over 98 minutes of film over multiple tapes. We did get that one dropout on the 1st of the 3 tapes but why that occured is beyond me. We also never used cleaning tapes or anything like that. We just used the camera straight out of the box. I do to this day keep it in both of the bags it came packaged in though.

I hope this information helps someone out just like this forum has helped me. I would recommend this camera or any alike it and the Panasonic tapes I use as I have been very pleased so far with everything. *Knocks on wood*

[Lars Nelson]

Just to add to the knowledgd base. I have shot 24 tapes to date.
All were Sony Premium (which means the cheapest).
I have experienced 4 dropouts. Two of these were in critical material, but I was able to edit around them.
I suppose the simplest way to test is to shoot one hour of tape without a cut and transfer it to FCP and see if there is more than one take in the browser shot list when finished.

[alexville]

We need someone to test out every tape: Panny, Sony, JVC, etc. And report the dropout rates. My camera is in the mail and I dont know what tapes to use!

[somekevinguy]

I used one basic Maxell tape so far. Like $2.50 each in a 10 pack from Sams. I bought them like 6 months ago so I can't remember for sure. I have recorded on the whole tape, in multiple sessions, let it sit in the camera since I got it until about two days ago which was about a week, recorded over a few sections a few times, rewound it like 3 times captured the entire tape twice to my computer with two different programs, watched various parts of it from the camera on the TV and no dropouts so far.

[alexville]

I used one basic Maxell tape so far. Like $2.50 each in a 10 pack from Sams. I bought them like 6 months ago so I can't remember for sure. I have recorded on the whole tape, in multiple sessions, let it sit in the camera since I got it until about two days ago which was about a week, recorded over a few sections a few times, rewound it like 3 times captured the entire tape twice to my computer with two different programs, watched various parts of it from the camera on the TV and no dropouts so far.

I'm guessing your shooting in SD not HD because Maxell tapes are on of the cheapest out there and I used them in my old Sony high8.

[somekevinguy]

You are guessing wrong. Is there anybody that actually goes out and buys an HD camera and shoots in SD? I used a bunch of different brands in my Sony digital8 though.

[alexville]

You are guessing wrong. Is there anybody that actually goes out and buys an HD camera and shoots in SD? I used a bunch of different brands in my Sony digital8 though.

Well good thing I said "Im Guessing", not "I'm certain". lol
:hv20-smilie77:

[Dannysuru]

jvc tapes? Do they sux or not.

Ive shot hours on the Jvc Pro HD GY100 camera with (SD) jvc tapes with not one dropout,that camera rocks!

I just put a new jvc tape (indentical to what i use in the GY) in my NEW hv30 *(Japanese model) and got a dropout in the first 5 or 10 mins! DISAPPOINTING DISCOVERY !

I guess i will be switching to Panasonic tapes too!
or im considering the canon HD tapes but dont want to buy them and find out they drop out too!

I will be ringing Canon japan (speak JP/ live in JP )tomorrow to find out what they suggest from the horses mouth.
I let u guys know if they have any decent inside info .

I KNOW EVERYONE HAS ALREADY SAID IT BUT.....
A HEAD CLEANING TAPE IN A BRAND NEW VIDEO CAMERA JUST SEEMS LIKE ......WHAT??
IF SOMEONE SAID THAT TO ME FIRST THOUGHT IS THEY MUST BE AN IDIOT OR ITS A REALLY REALLY REALLY BAD JOKE!!!!!

[Clayton]

In cases where specific tape cannot be isolated, or dirty heads or whatever, has anyone had successful resolution via Canon Service yet?

[Documentarycorner.com]

I never had any dropouts at all so i tought it was a NTCS thing (i use PAL). but yesterday i was shoting a interview i notist dropouts in the middle and it really sucks.. couse i cant make the interview again.. any one know if this is price related (if i need a more expensive camcorder to feel save) or is it just hdv in general?

[finemom]

Having read the post about not switching tapes confuses me. I would like to start using the Canon tapes instead of the Sony premiums. Will this hurt the camera if I make this switch when it's already "broken in" with Sony's? I haven't used my camera all that much (maybe 10 hours of taping) and it's so much better than my Canon from 5 years ago that I haven't looked for dropouts, yet from reading the descriptions I must have had it since I feel like I know what you're talking about.

[Sam7]

i had a problem of the occasional drop out when i first got my hv20 with both the panasonic and jvc tapes...i was beginning to reconsider my purchase, so i returned it for a new one and ever since...no more drop outs.

i originally bought a 2-pack of jvc HD tapes and now i only use panasonic 60 minute tapes.

[goldenmultimedia]

Hello,
I posted my findings a while back and wanted to give an update...

Basically I was using Sony Premium tapes and was getting a bunch of dropouts (even though I've been using those tapes for years in Sony HDV cameras with no problem). Major audio sync problems ensued in Premiere and Final Cut Pro.

Then I used a cleaning tape and it seemed to help at first, but still getting some dropouts occasionally. Then I saw the blue notice that came with the camera that advised to use a cleaning tape and use special HDV tapes (Canon HDVM-E63PR) at $20 each. Costly, but I figured if it works it would be worth it.

So I bought 5 of those (yes, that's $100 for 5 tapes) and did some filming. For 3 of those tapes I had no dropouts. On the 4th I did have a dropout that occured at the very begining of the tape.

So I called the Canon service number and got a repair form to send it back (fortunately its under warranty). I'm sending it out today, and will post back when it's done. Hopefully this will resolve the issue.

- Kent

[triumphnutter]

I am interested to see what happens in your case. I have a brand new HV20 and it does the same thing on the first tape I tried.

One thing I noticed about the playback freeze: When analyzing the timecode on the freezepoints (which are repeatable), the timecode jumps about a second and half. I can see this when I pause the tape during playback at the frozen frame and then use the frame advance key on the remote control to see what happens. There is definitely timecode missing where there should be uninterupted recording. I'm not sure what this tells me. Either a bad spot on the tape, or recording error? I am anxious to see what happens when I transfer it to the computer. I can't imagine it comes out clean, but we will see. Any ideas?

[/QUOTE]
So I called the Canon service number and got a repair form to send it back (fortunately its under warranty). I'm sending it out today, and will post back when it's done. Hopefully this will resolve the issue.

- Kent[/QUOTE]

[Eclipse]

If dropouts are encountered during playback, make sure to playback the tape over the same spot and to check out if the dropout persist there permanently.
In my case, I had only one permanent dropout on one cheap tape (out of 9 tapes I've been using). The other dropouts were just "playback dropouts" that didn't occur when I played back the tape a second time over the same spot. I assume some kind of micro dirt particles or whatever may have gone through the video head...
So, check if the dropouts are permanent or just random.

[triumphnutter]

I didn't check all of the spots on my only tape so far, but the ones I did check are repeatable, and they have missing/nonsequential time code where there was contiunous recording.

I will first use a dry head cleaner, then change to different tape. I was using a budget JVC tape. It seems there is not one cure all solution to this the more I read...

[goldenmultimedia]

Hi again,
I did receive the camera back, with a message that the tape mechanism was realigned. In order to see if it worked though I'll need to record a few tapes worth of material.

I'll report back with details.

- Kent

[bhbest]

In reference to a post I saw a while ago about HV20's being shipped with dirty heads. I had been getting at least 5-6 dropouts per hour of footage using Sony EXL tapes. After shooting 40 plus hours of footage I used a Sony head cleaner to see if this would eliminate this before sending the cam to Canon. It's been 20 hours of footage and counting now and I am happy to report not a single dropout. Problem solved.

[triumphnutter]

Amazingly, all the frozen frames and skipped timecode disappear while capturing to the computer. Apparently, my problem is not related to the firewire output. No dropped frames while capturing. Weird. Also tried a Panasonic MQ tape and had no playback issues at all on the TV. Wish I knew what all this meant.

[tomsepe]

I just bought a Canon HV30 and went to India for three weeks to shoot a documentary. Lots of interviews where we've got one longshot using the whole tape.

I've had nothing but problems importing my video. Major stutters and playback dropouts.

First I thought it was my system... so I installed a new hard drive - new system software and new Final Cut Pro.. so all my hardware and software are current (I'm on a 2.5GHZ G5 with 6GB ram so it should handle the data stream)

After all that I noticed that the stuttering was happening when the camera wasn't connected to anything else. Cleaning the heads with the little brush tape didn't do anything. So I sent it on warranty repairt back to Canon. They (of course) could not repeat the problem and have cleaned it and sent it back, after sitting on it for two weeks.

When I got it back, I was able to input ONE interview with only a couple drops - so I was able to reacapture those moments. But the next tape I put in I was getting drops every 30 seconds to a minute. Same with the next tape. I've got over 40 tapes to digitize and I've already been held up a month on this no-budget project!

I think this camera is a piece of Junk. I was really excited about it and really liked filming with it and the features. But what's the point of shooting digital video if you can't successfully capture the data to your computer!??!?! What am I supposed to do now? Rent an HDV deck? Is that even possible/compatible with the canon?

I just want to throw this thing against a wall and let my "accidental damage" waiver kick in on my insurance policy. It'll cost me the deductible but it will really make me feel better. What a piece of Junk - I mean even if I manage to get canon to send me a new one, how long tll this problem shows up again?

This morning I put in a tape and tried quicktime capture - and it didn't stutter. Maybe its dropping frames but at least I'm getting one file and the camera seems to be playing back ok. But no time code of course. I'm so perplexed. Is there a glitch with the communication between Final Cut Pro and the HV30? I suppose its possible that it is my Firewire cable... or perhaps there is some other issue?

I'm using the "HDV - 1080i60" sequence preset
"HDV" Capture Preset
"HDV Firewire Basic" Device Control Preset

I've tried capturing to the computer's system disk (a seagate barracuda 500GB 7200 RPM eSATA drive)

And I've tried capturing to an external eSATA striped RAID (two seagate barracuda drives in an enclosure from OWC)


I've been using the Panasonic DVm63 tapes. But I also shot on maxell DVm60SE and some Sony DVM60 tapes.


I"M AT MY WIT'S END! Something is is going to give - me or this frackin' camera!

ANY HELP APRECIATED!!

[FleetStreetFilms]

I own two HV20s and use regular Sony miniDV tapes. I've experienced the dropout on both cameras, looks like it's a wide problem.

[goldenmultimedia]

Hello again,
Update - I have shot a few tapes (regular Sony MiniDV) since I sent my camera back to Canon and they "realigned the tape mechanism".

No dropouts yet that I've noticed. Keeping my fingers crossed.

- Kent

[goldenmultimedia]

Well, I was hopeful that the "realignment" would fix the problem, but I do still get the occasional dropout. It doesn't seem to be as often though.

Does anyone know if the HV30 (or other newer models) have the same problem?

- Kent

[Krane]

Hi everyone.

Has anyone else experienced this, I bought my camera new 6 weeks ago, have recorded maybe 30 mins of footage and last night when I went to record....nothing just blue screen. So i tried to playback and all I got was pixels and huge lines across the screen!!!!!....So i tried to record again and this time it said "dirty heads use cleaning cassette".......after 30 min of recording!!!!!!!.....WOW!!!!....I think its time to look at other Camcorder models!!....I thought Canon was better than that!!!!

thanks for any response on this.

JayNo disrespect Jay, but you like so many others here are too quick to blame Canon for anything that goes wrong. A dirty head could just as well be blamed on poor tape quality--which seem more likely since most of you buy the cheapest tapes you can find.

I'm not implying Canon's blameless, (you could well be right) but lets try and keep our conclusions as scientific as possible, and avoid needless conjecture and speculation.

BTW, what brand/grade tapes did you use; and were they new or used? Also keep in mind how well you take care of your camera an the environment you change your tapes in can also effect it's performance. People tend to forget these things.