Three options for those on budget

[directore]

It's the middle of the summer, very unlikely normal retail will see any significant price drops or deals any time soon. Canon seems to have regained the upper hand in controlling prices tightly.

Four options for people on tight budgets:

a) Ebay has so-so deals ($720-$800) occasionally on mildly used cameras,

b) wait for better deals in the fall,

c) buy a cheap, second-hand HDR-HC3, similar camera quality-wise, 24p missing but a lot of people will not miss it much. There is a 2nd-hand outfit (http://search.stores.ebay.com/2ndTurn-electronics_sony-camcorder-hc3_W0QQfcdZ2QQfciZ13QQfclZ4QQfromZR10QQfsnZ2ndTur nQ20electronicsQQfsooZ1QQfsopZ1QQsaselZ70260871QQs ofpZ0) on the eBay ("2ndTurn electronics") that sells them in the $200-300 range which is not a bad deal altogether for a decent, late model 1080i HD camera (some accessories usually missing though),

c) if no rush wait a few months for HV20 to start showing up on that site above (http://search.stores.ebay.com/2ndTurn-electronics_canon-camcorder_W0QQfcdZ2QQfciZ13QQfclZ4QQfromZR10QQfsnZ 2ndTurnQ20electronicsQQfsooZ1QQfsopZ1QQsaselZ70260 871QQsofpZ0). They will likely sell for much less that $400.

Happy shopping.

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It is unbelievable and inexcusable that Canon still hasn't released a pull-down removal utility for Mac/PC for this camera, not to mention firmware upgrade to correct for that idiocy of theirs writing 24p in 60i on this model. But that's what you get when decisions are made by marketing morons not technically competent people.

[directore]

Re that "utility" postscript comment above see my clarification here (http://www.camcorderinfo.com/bbs/showpost.php?p=219572&postcount=209).

[Erik Bien]

... or does anyone else think this sounds like a disgruntled Sony executive?

(between the HV20 raping the low-end and the RED One about to pillage the high-end, those Sony Broadcast Division guys must be browning their drawers bigtime, n'est ce pas?

[directore]

Trust me it's you, also you are grossly overestimating them, Sony executives, disgruntled or not, unlikely have a faintest idea what this issue is all about, besides Sony can easily produce something better than the HV20 and on a short notice to boot which was the underlying sentiment in that post of mine.

[Ten Ounce]

eh? :hv20-smilie43:

[Ian-T]

c) if no rush wait a few months for HV20 to start showing up on that site above (http://search.stores.ebay.com/2ndTurn-electronics_canon-camcorder_W0QQfcdZ2QQfciZ13QQfclZ4QQfromZR10QQfsnZ 2ndTurnQ20electronicsQQfsooZ1QQfsopZ1QQsaselZ70260 871QQsofpZ0). They will likely sell for much less that $400.

I seriously doubt this. The HV20, pulldown issue or not, is a hot seller and I believe most people that I've seen are happy with it. I think back to Panasonic's GS400 and how it made this same type of buzz (probably not as much) and when word came out about the upcoming GS500 (a more watered down version of the same...but a nice cam nonetheless) the price of the GS400 skyrocketed in some cases more than the original retail price. This all depends I guess with what Canon does with the HV20's successer. but I think under $400 in a few months is kind of a stretch (even on that site).

[Cardboardboxman]

went to 4 best buys and and 5 cirucuit city's and not one had a HV20 in stock. They had lots of sony's. So no matter what , in the end the people will speak. I just bought mine through Circuit City online with the AAA coupon off of their ever changing sale prices and ended up at at 855.00--915.00 0r something with tax. I purchased the Lowepro 160 bag and am liking it so far. I have yet to do any filming yet. I will let you know my first impressions.

[directore]

I seriously doubt this. T.... but I think under $400 in a few months is kind of a stretch (even on that site).

Read me again, I said < $400 on that 2nd-hand eBay shop where they offload old beaten-up, accessories-missing camcorders that start collecting in various warehouses after several months. Check for example what HDR-HC3s go for these days on that site (link provided in my original post). $400 for an old beaten up, accessories missing HV20 it will be IMO.

[Erik Bien]

This is cute, looks like Canon hired some goons to discover who I am, so here is my message: Dear Canon, it that's you save yourself some money and trouble, post your e-mail, phone#, etc where you want me to contact you, I'll be happy to answer any questions you may have. Honest!

What was that? Would you mind taking a step towards the flower pot and saying that again?

(Remember, just because you're paranoid doesn't mean they aren't out to get you.) :hv20-smilie161:

[Jake Ironshirt]

Maybe I've had too many hot days on the Rez who knows...but I'm trying to follow this as best I can directore...are you saying the HV20 is going away? And the Sony company is behind it or what..sorta like their is more to this than meets the eye...goons? What goons...where are they? And who is behind it...name them.
Jake

[directore]

where did I say I think HV20 is going away?

Briefly, I hope Canon will release new firmware for the HV20 to address the flag problem or better yet to allow direct storage and output of 24p*. And a new camcorder later to address other problems (ergonomics, construction quality, aesthetics mostly). As far as Sony and others, I hope they will jump on consumer progressive bandwagon soon if only to create incentive for Canon to improve on HV20. Little competition usually helps in these matters.

re other matters, they were the result of misunderstanding, I deleted the relevant posts. My apologies.

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* I just received my HV20. Two quickie reactions, the thing as expected is a shapeless and rather ugly looking piece of cheapo plastic (WalMar "electronics clearance bin" level really), so nobody will confuse me for a pro when I'm shooting with it. Can live with it but as a long time Apple consumer I'm offended.

They made it as cheaply as humanly possible, wrist wrap is the best example, they probably saved a penny or two by making it 3 times flimsier than on my old Canon Elura 85. BTW that $200 Elura 85 had a solid feel of a top level iPod compared to this piece of lousy plastic.

But it takes good to excellent footage and the overall operations are nice and logical. The only functional gripe I have is with 24p workflow, stinks to high heaven. iMovie corrupts 24p footage to the point that I cannot remove that Canon pulldown crap.

FCP is a little too much for grabbing so I use AVCVideoCap (Apple developer util) to grab raw .m2t footage, then MPEG Streamclip to convert to AIC and .mov, then JES Deinterlacer to remove the pulldown.

Three different apps (and no way to automate them) to get a relatively clean 24p footage that I can import into FCP or FCE (no iMovie as iMovie handles only 25p natively). I said relatively clean, because for some reason some interlacing artifacts are still visible in the final footage as noted by other posters here.

Did you hear it Canon, 3 different apps to remove that 60i crap of yours!

---

BTW 24p works great as long as you understand its limitation, no hand held footage, nice tripod or steady-cam work only as they do when they shoot real movies.

[John Watson]

I'm lucky that I'm using the PAL version and so escape the 24p headache, but I do understand people's frustration with the pulldown. My knowledge of video editing is shaky at best and I've been mostly lost trying to follow what needs to be done to get the pulldown removed. I'm really glad I don't need to worry about it.

The arguments about the flimsy construction and cheap lightweight feel of the HV20 reminds me very much of when I bought a Canon 300D SLR. The camera was getting great reviews for image quality for the price when released (1st digital SLR to sell under £1000) but people were saying it was too light, too plastic, too small, too cheaply constructed compared to other, more expensive SLRs.

I didn't really have an opinion at the time because my prior camera had been a compact and it felt quite big and substantial compared.

However, 4 years and 10,000 pictures later I'm really glad it's light. I've carried that camera for miles and often thought 'I'm really glad this is so 'cheaply' made' Further more, despite it's cheap construction it's not got a scratch on it. It's been up mountains, on rocks, in the rain at times and just about everywhere else imaginable and yet remains in perfect working order and looking good as new.

With that in mind I'm quite happy that the HV20 was cheaper (and more affordable) than it's rivals, and manages to have a better picture too, if the reviews are to be believed.. I saved hundreds of pounds and still got a better camera! Unlike some people I don't have an unlimited budget. If the price to be paid is that it's 'cheaply constructed' and so is much easier to carry about, then that's a happy extra as far as I'm concerned. There's no guarantee it will turn out to be as rugged as the 300D, but I'm hopeful it will be.

And while I wouldn't say the HV20 fits my hand like a glove.. I do find it perfectly easy to use handheld and easy on the arm that's supporting it. However, being HD, I'm following what seems to be wise advice and mostly using it on a tripod anyway.

[Ian-T]

went to 4 best buys and and 5 cirucuit city's and not one had a HV20 in stock. They had lots of sony's. So no matter what , in the end the people will speak.... I agree with wht you're saying.. Maybe this is a sign of Canon stopping production of the HV20 and concentratig on a successor already. I know it seems way too soon but look at what panasonic did this year with their consumer HD cams (3 times already). The point I was trying to make above is exactly what you are saying...the market will decide. If the sucessor is a better cam with better features...then yeah....value of HV20 will drop...but if it's a less endowed cam (like the GS500 was to GS400) then its value, as hot as this cam is now, will skyrocket up jsut like the panas did even at second hand stores. IMO

[directore]

Chances are Canon throttled down the supply chain temporarily to recover the desired pricing levels. Companies do that sometimes, it's considered a shrewd move in some circles. BTW 42nd street people told me they should have PAL in a week or two in you are interested (1.2K though)

[Erik Bien]

Chances are Canon throttled down the supply chain temporarily to recover the desired pricing levels. Companies do that sometimes, it's considered a shrewd move in some circles. BTW 42nd street people told me they should have PAL in a week or two in you are interested (1.2K though)

Directore, I think you should move: wherever you live, they're clearly putting too much flouride in the water. :hv20-smilie84:

I might suggest corollary evidence (like retailers also running out of stock on 43mm-thread filters and 43mm wide-angle adapters) would tend to indicate nothing more sinister than the forces of supply and demand.

But then, I don't think Occam's Razor (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occam%27s_razor) is something to shave with.

[directore]

People here are quite happy with fluoride levels in their water, thank you very much.

Sure you can interpret the relative shortage and the resulting uptick in prices* to summer and their inability to meet the demand, but in the absence of any hard data on demand, all three speculations (demand, supply being temporarily throttled down or new model coming) appear equally reasonable. Oh well maybe not the last one. Besides speculation is fun.

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* ignore that phony $701 recent dip http://www.nextag.com/Canon-HV20-HD-camcorder-535321089/prices-html to observe ~$100 summer uptick from middle $800s to middle $900s. Hopefully Dell will be able to offer them again, they had the lowest legitimate dealer price so far less than $850.

[Ian-T]

But then, I don't think Occam's Razor (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occam%27s_razor) is something to shave with.
Ha...good one!!:hv20-smilie87:

[John Watson]

edit : deleted my post.