Questions:: Firewire direct capture (bypassing tape)

[Robbie Medford]

Ok, so

1. If you record to tape: you get a 1920 x 1080 true image, then converted (nicely) to 1440(1.333) x 1080i, MPEG2 compressed and written to tape at a constant 3.6 MegaBytes per second. Right?

2. In copying the taped video over firewire, you get a transfer rate of 3.6 MBytes/sec, right?

3. If you capture directly from HDMI you can get 1920x1080x1.000 (plus better quality video), right?

4. If Firewire can sustain a 50 MegaByte per second transfer rate (400 Mbps), can't I also get much better video capture through firewire by directly capturing video, bypassing the tape write? There just seems like there has to be a way to do this. Firewire isn't even using 1/10th it's transfer capacity, and HDMI supposedly allows direct capture not limited to "HDV" (specifically 1440x1080x1.333) compression. Someone please tell me that it is possible, because it would just be a shame if it's not, given that all the technology seems to be there.

Awaiting... and anticipating...

[Ian-T]

I believe, though it can be theoretically done with firewire, you will still capture the HDV compression in a "live" capture.

[um3k]

Sure, it's possible, but it isn't implemented in any camera I know of.

[Robbie Medford]

Thank ya'll for ya'lls answers (I know, it's just southern, though :hv20-smilie70:)

OK, I know I got a little dramatic in the initial thread post. But can someone help give me something definitive? If I contact Canon, oh wait, already did that, and that didn't work.

An article, a website, or strong gratuitous convincing technobabble? Anyone? Anyone? Bueller? :hv20-smilie03:

[daci]

Quicktime 7.2 added support for direct HDV import, but right now it is quite useless. By selecting the 'device native' format and recording in quicktime player ($20 pro version needed, i think) you can record image from HDV camera in QT mov file without rolling the tape. Resulting mov file is a 1440x1080 29.97 HDV codec movie file with audio, but Quicktime cannot playback the video. (beats me) Even with mpeg2 component installed Quicktime treats it as a HDV codec (but not "MPEG2") and refuses to display video. I can still view it on VLC or mplayer, but that's about it. If apple does a little more and add support for playback of HDV codec mov file, I'd be able to use my mac as a virtual deck and bypass tape altogether, run JES deinterlacer to remove pulldown from the original format thus minimizing generational loss and so forth... Maybe it'll happen someday. (sorry.. mostly mac only story. May work on PC the same way)

[Mal]

Quicktime 7.2 added support for direct HDV import....


WOW! Really? That is cool news though, even if it isn't refined yet. :hv20-smilie77:

[NilsP]

If you got a HDMI capture card :), then you can capture full 1920x1080 directly to the PC/Mac. Such a card can be had for only $299!

[Chas Hart]

Ok, so

1. If you record to tape: you get a 1920 x 1080 true image, then converted (nicely) to 1440(1.333) x 1080i, MPEG2 compressed and written to tape at a constant 3.6 MegaBytes per second. Right?

2. In copying the taped video over firewire, you get a transfer rate of 3.6 MBytes/sec, right?



3.6Mbs wrong.
2.5Mbs right.
CBR right.

[daci]

Right. Nothing is as good as using HDMI to bypass HDV compression in the first place. But at least I want to skip the tape usage and time to ingest by having a laptop as a recording device. Now if only there were flash drive or hardrive based HV20...

[tomasallan]

Does anyone make a capture card (HDMI) for the MBP? ExpressCard34

[Halsu]

3.6Mbs wrong.
2.5Mbs right.

Wrong.

25 Mb/s AND 3,6 MB/s. It's 25 Megabits and/or 3,6 MegaBytes.

[SenorKaffee]

There is a PCIx-Expresscard slot converter that *unoffically* works with Intensity capture cards. No guarantee and most laptop hard drives will be too slow to capture the HDMI stream.

[24Peter]

Ok, so

4. If Firewire can sustain a 50 MegaByte per second transfer rate (400 Mbps), can't I also get much better video capture through firewire by directly capturing video, bypassing the tape write? There just seems like there has to be a way to do this. Firewire isn't even using 1/10th it's transfer capacity, and HDMI supposedly allows direct capture not limited to "HDV" (specifically 1440x1080x1.333) compression. Someone please tell me that it is possible, because it would just be a shame if it's not, given that all the technology seems to be there.

Awaiting... and anticipating...

Not sure if this was actually answered but... you can capture directly to your computer "live" over firewire if you have the right sotfware. But it will be the same compression as tape.

And while Firewire (400) has a theoretical max throughput of 50MB/s, I've never seen a device come close to that. My external firewire drives on my current machine come in around 16MB/s. But like I said, that throughput doesn't matter for capturing video live via firewire; rather the camera determines compression.

[Lunchbox]

You can capture live using firewire with any software that record HDV from tape... Hdvsplit, premiere pro, vegas...

same resolution applied tho.

[24Peter]

You can capture live using firewire with any software that record HDV from tape... Hdvsplit, premiere pro, vegas...


That's what I meant. Thanks for clarifying Taky.

[Robbie Medford]

Wrong.

25 Mb/s AND 3,6 MB/s. It's 25 Megabits and/or 3,6 MegaBytes.

:hv20-smilie03: Thanks Halsu!!

All I got to say is "YA'LL ARE AWESOME!!!"

Yeah, that's bum about the firewire locking down to HDV compress specs! But, 'nough said about firewire, for now.

See, I wanted to take around my nice laptop in my backpack, with a firewire cable running out of it, taking better than HDV compression video, but, ALAS!!!

Now SenorKaffee is talkin about what I want to hear! I want an HDMI connection to my laptop, even through conversions (oh please make them hassle-less!!! At least in the near future!!)

Another "All I got to say is" is The HV20 is the BEST! I don't care who you are! And the HDMI connection ROCKS!!! Could it have gotten any cooler??? (all strick realists please stay away from the question...)

So, we need the best HDMI laptop solution!

What is it? (It may have laready been answered...)

Thanks everyone!!

:hv20-smilie110:

[Lunchbox]

Dell already made a laptop with HDMI port. You might be able to record from HV20 directly to harddrive bypassing the HDV compression to tape.

http://www.hv20.com/showthread.php?t=932

[mik]

there is no second review other than cnet to say "hdmi-in". they all say hdmi-out. it seems that dude made a mistake .

edit: i've found on google this $595 device http://www.convergent-design.com/CD_Products_HDConnectMI.htm. you could attach it to this (expensive at ~$4k) http://ctt.ru/products/hd/flash_dvr/ (the HD/SD SDI is the 4:2:2 uncompressed port like on XLH1)

[SenorKaffee]

Yes, that´s OUT-only. Kinda like when I activated the onboard sound to connect my PS2 to the SPDIF port and noticed after an hour of testing that it was labelled SPDIF-OUT. ;)
Just think about it - what good would HDMI-in be for the average user?

[unconsenting]

Does anyone know of a mobile component in solution?

[tokyo_ren]

Wrong.

25 Mb/s AND 3,6 MB/s. It's 25 Megabits and/or 3,6 MegaBytes.

just to be a total nuspe...

25Mb/s of Video
1.536Mb/s of Audio
8.7Mb/s of essential voodoo (subcode data, error checking etc)

thats 4.4MBytes per second, of which video is 3.13MB/s (25Mbs / 8)


Back on the topic of data rates and bandwidth, it should be remembered that firewire/1394 was not developed exclusively for DV. So just because we now have 400 and 800 firewire/1394 the DV standard won't change because the tape mechanism would need to be redesigned to accomodate a faster tape speed. Then they would need to redesign the tape heads for a faster response. Lets not forget the new tape medium too, etc etc.
hang on a mo.... Enter DVPRO/50/100
exit you, me and all normal people with limited budgets :hv20-smilie15:


Enter HDMI (coz they got it all wrong with AVCHD and we can't afford DVPRO)
http://www.blackmagic-design.com/products/intensity/
yes please :hv20-smilie77:


I can't comment on what can or cannot be done with this card and the HV20 as I have neither but I will say its amazing what 5 minutes of wiggling gooki can do :hv20-smilie64:

my bad -> 1080i50, 1080i59.94, 720p50 and 720p59.94. sorry!
(I'll check my facts better next time)

[wfeu]

edit: i've found on google this $595 device http://www.convergent-design.com/CD_Products_HDConnectMI.htm.


The convergent design products are super nice but the main thing to note is they output to SDI serial digital interface. So you would need a capture card that has SDI in's on it like from aja and blackmagic. I have a aja kona lh in my G5 its very nice and with the convergent design product mentioned above it is really amazing how much cleaner and crisper the footage captured is. I monitor out HDMI on a HD monitor with the aja hi8 box it takes the SDI out of my kona card to HDMI.

Convergent posted sample footage on the above link.

For laptops at least mac ones I am not aware of any products for HDMI input, you would need a desktop machine with card (kona/bm). I capture on the G5 and then move drives/footage to my Macbook pro when I use it. It has FCP Studio 6 on it. My G5 runs 5 since alot of my clients do not have/use 6 yet.

[tokyo_ren]

Enter HDMI (coz they got it all wrong with AVCHD and we can't afford DVPRO)
http://www.blackmagic-design.com/products/intensity/
yes please :hv20-smilie77:


I can't comment on what can or cannot be done with this card and the HV20 as I have neither but I will say its amazing what 5 minutes of wiggling gooki can do :hv20-smilie64:

my bad -> 1080i50, 1080i59.94, 720p50 and 720p59.94. sorry!


ok... its 11:30pm here, (I'll sleep before posting next time)

1080p24 is in a 1080i59.94 3:2 wrapper
so for about 350USD you get HDMI in/out and SD analogue too
(only 250USD if you don't need the SD analogue)

all you need is a SATAII array and a machine fast enough to compress it realtime into a usuable (storable/data throughput) 4:2:2 10bit format.

and I wiggled my googi again



http://www.blackmagic-design.com/pro...sity/software/

Online JPEG for Adobe Premiere Pro
On Windows, Blackmagic's full resolution (1920 x 1080) professional quality compressed HD codec can capture JPEG AVI files in real time using Premiere Pro. Unlike HDV and DVCPRO HD which uses reduced resolution 1440 x 1080 video, Blackmagic's Online JPEG maintains the full resolution 1920 x 1080 resolution of HD video without the huge file size of uncompressed HD video. Blackmagic's Online JPEG is so efficient that full motion 1080i HD video can be recorded at only 12 MB per second vs. a massive 119 MB per second for uncompressed HD video.

Blackmagic's compressed files are so compact, that 1080 HD video can be captured to a single internal hard disk or easily transported on a portable Firewire drive! Online JPEG is compatible with Premiere Pro and After Effects® and can even be used by editors without Blackmagic capture cards making it one of the most versatile compressed codecs available.


thats 96Mbs or almost 4 times the data that DV on firewire/1394 has (i.e. its as good as DVPRO100, if not better)

Ren

[SenorKaffee]

The plus of pixel resolution in capturing HDMI is yet unproven. What is proven is that the HDMI output has no MPEG2 compression artifacts and better color resolution - I would not throw that away by using MJPEG compression. Not after an investment in this card.

[Rikki]

Reading this, I feel like I did ten years ago when I wanted to do away with my home VCR and instead capture TV shows direct to my PC. Shame I only had a 1.2gb hard drive :D

[wfeu]

A note on the convergent designs converters:

"In an exciting new application, HD-Connect MI can also be used to capture never-
compressed video and audio out of an HDV/AVCHD camcorder during a live shoot. As
discussed in the above section on camcorder acquisition, the HDMI video and audio out
of a live shot has never been processed through an MPEG2 or H.264 compressor and
therefore retains all the color information (4:2:2) and detail from the CCD/CMOS sensor. "


From their white paper. Good reading.
http://www.convergent-design.com/hdmisipics/HDMI_in_HDV_and_AVCHD_Camcorders.pdf


If you do not need deck control they have the nanoConnect for 395. 200 less than the HD Connect MI.

For laptops this is probably out of the question as you would need HD SDI inputs on it. You would need a desktop with a SDI capture card. like kona or higher end blackmagic.

The Black magic intensity pro card is a great solution for live capture via hdmi.

http://www.blackmagic-design.com/products/intensity/on-air/

But... you would again need a desktop machine with PCI-E card bus. I would of bought one these except my G5 has PCI-X.

[FreddieZ]

The plus of pixel resolution in capturing HDMI is yet unproven. What is proven is that the HDMI output has no MPEG2 compression artifacts and better color resolution - I would not throw that away by using MJPEG compression. Not after an investment in this card.

Hey SenorK,

I wrote to Black Magic and got the follwing response from their technical support rep:

>
>From their product page under features
www.usa.canon.com/consumer/controller?act=ModelInfoAct&fcategoryid=177&modelid=14869 it looks like the Canon HV20 does output at 1920X1080.

I also checked with another support tech and he verified that that HDMI output from the Canon HV20 is 1920X1080.

xxx xxxxxxxx
Technical Support Representative
Blackmagic Design Inc.
www.blackmagic-design.com

>

Is that what you mean't by pixel resolution?

[FreddieZ]

http://dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?t=99632