Wobbly image?

[Norbert]

I have recently got my HV20 and I love the image quality. However, I'm trying to figure out if there is something wrong with my camera because as soon as I move the camera I get an extremely wobbly image that resembles a jelly, even at full wide. Not even the OIS takes care of these wobbles.

Here's a handheld clip full wide with OIS ON where I am walking up a hill: http://files.filefront.com/7340877
Should it wobble like that?

I put the camera on a home made stabilizer device and tried it with both OIS on and off, but that did not take care of the wobbles either. Here's a clip with stabilizer and OIS on: http://files.filefront.com/7340999

I have an old Sony DV handycam with EIS that produces far better results even with the EIS off. I've also owned a DVX100 with OIS which did not behave like this either. I've never seen anything like it before.

Am I just spoiled? Is it supposed to behave this way? Or is there something wrong with my HV20?

[Mal]

Can't check the footage as the download is way too slow.

Something seems odd though, as I have not noticed anything weird about the HV20's OIS.
Generally speaking, if you have the cam in a moving motion (walking handheld, moving stabilizer, or panning on a tripod), you'd want to turn the OIS off, as you will get jerky movement/jitter.
Of course, you are saying you get this odd behavious with or without OIS. so it does seem off.
Are you sure you are not seeing the jitter caused by wrong framerate/pulldown?

[Norbert]

Smaller files uploaded on Filefront. First post edited. ^^
The strange thing is I don't see these wobbles when I take my old Sony for a walk, with or without EIS.
It's not a pulldown problem either, I have the PAL version. I see these wobbles when I connect the camera to my tv as well.

[ib84]

I can see it, it´s indeed very strange...
can´t figure out a reason for this with the things you said, but most likely something is wrong with the OIS controll, like the arrestation of the moving lenses. I would send it back...

you could try for the hell if there is even wobble when you have the cam completely still and just filming moving objects... this could indicated a software error

I am very interested in this one, as i am about to buy me the HV20 in PAL-land too...

good luck

[Norbert]

It doesn't show any of this behaviour when I shoot moving objects with the camera being still. It's when I start moving the camera this happens. I tried panning slowly on a tripod and I don't think I saw any jerkyness there. The problem is I don't want to be restricted to a tripod, so I will return this camera and get a new one that hopefully doesn't behave like this.

[ib84]

i am afraid this is not a single case:
here (http://dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?t=89865) is a guy complaining about the same thing, i guess. look at the
video (http://file.meyersproduction.com/hv20/hv20%20issues%20720p.mov), it´s the same kind of wooble image.

And another video (http://www.listvideo.com/details.php?image_id=128) in which you can see the wooble... (restricted access on listvideo)

so is this normal and all the others just don´t see?!?!

I am disappointed this exist also in the PAL-version...

[Norbert]

Yeah I saw those earlier but I thought the problem was fixed now or that their units were just defective because no one else seemed to complain about it. I'm sure some people out there are okay with this problem, thinking that the camera is supposed to behave like this. I would probably be under that same impression too if I hadn't used my old Sony from which I can get a far more stable image.

I have seen footage that doesn't show any of this wobblyness however so I guess there are just a few cameras that have this defect. I really hope to get one back that doesn't have this issue.

[Mal]

Norbert,
I must be thick, because I am still not fully understanding the problem.
From what I gather, you can walk handheld with a Sony cam and it has usual "shaking" from walking, but with the HV20 it is much worse and wobbles?

I just tried two shots, one with a Sony MiniDV cam, the other with the HV20, and they are both equally bad, I'd say.

I watched your clip, and although I can see the shaking, it doesn't immediately strike me as MUCH worse than what I'd expect from walking handheld.

WAIT, I see you used a home made stabilizer? Darn, yeah, that should be better then.
I guess a comparison to another cam would of helped.

In any event, I'd really like to know what exactly is going on here, and if some of the cams are simply defective, or what.

[Mal]

Okay...doing some own testing now...results in a few minutes....

[Mal]

Okay, seems this is indeed something that's going on with this (or other HDV cams as well). I can duplicate it somewhat, but not as bad as Norbert's footage.

I haven't pin-pointed the exact problem yet; it may be CMOS/HDV/shutter speed related.

There was a site that posted stills that had vertical lines all warped. Anyone remember where that was? Might be something completely different, but I recall it had to do with how the CMOS was exposed when the cam was moving.

This is obviously something that needs to be solved or at least have a workaround, even if it means we can't move fast with this cam.

I've quickly uploaded NORBERT's footage with the original file, and one that is corrected slightly with STEADYHAND - a software program). This was done so I could see what was going on while having the "normal" shakyness removed. On DV footage, this program works very well, however, on Norbert's footage this is what it looks like:
http://hv20.info/yopu/wobble2.mov
(1.7MB, Sorenson3 MOV file)

[Mal]

Well (I THINK) I can confirm what's going on now.
This seems indeed to be this vertical-line-getting-warped problem during fast pans. I wish I'd remember where I'd seen those stills...

A simple test should illuminate this problem, and be duplicatable:
take the HV20, hit record, and wave it side to side, while trying to keep the cam as straight as possible (don't TILT the cam, just waive it left to right to left).
Then import that footage, and what should be vertical lines comes out all bent like.

Now, although this sounds grave, it might not be, especially if this might be completely avoidable with some adjustements.

Has to be further investigated....

[24Peter]

My take on the issue (from the other forum)

"For me I've chalked it [wobbly image] up to three factors that are NOT IMO defects (at least defects that can be fixed) of the camera: 1) small, lightweight cameras are inherently more difficult to hold steady. I'm coming off a DVX100. With all my stuff on it, that camera was around 5 lbs with that mass spread around a much larger camera. The HV20 is tiny in comparison. It weighs close to what my extended life battery weighs on the DVX - just the battery! 2) HD(V) resolution - most of us are used to standard DV resolution. The HV20's resolution is 2 1/2 times greater. Thus small camera movements appear greatly amplified. While a camera shaking 1/8" in either direction is still 1/8 for DV or HDV, to me at least it looks much more pronounced in my HDV footage. 3) CMOS sensor - I'm not an engineer and others are probably much more knowledgeable than I on this, but my understanding is fast camera movement on a CMOS sensor shows up as kind of diagonal sheering of the image. To me at least this makes camera movement much more noticeable (subject movement, on the other hand, appears the same to me on the HV20 as any other camera). But I can get literally seasick watching some of my HV20 handheld stuff where I moved the camera in a jerky fashion to begin with.

Canon's OIS works quite well IMO. But any lens stabilizing system has it's limits. (BTW - I leave it turned on even while on a tripod to "absorb" any bumps - may turn it off for lots of panning as supposedly it has a negative effect on pans though I have yet to see it.) But based on 1)-3) above, I've come to the overall conclusion that I can't do a lot of handheld shooting with the HV20 esp at the long end of the zoom. I recently got Canon's wide angle adapter - WD-H43 or whatever it's called - hoping that 1) shooting wider would make my shakey camera moves less noticeable and 2) the added weight of the adapter would make the camera more stable. But no go. On 2) all the adapter does is make the camera noticebly front heavy. All that weight on the front acts as a lever (remember high school physics?), amplifying the stability issues of the camera (for me at least).

So... I've resigned myself to shooting a lot more with a tripod with this camera and looking for some other means to stabilize the camera when shooting handheld. But I think shooting while walking is definitely out for me with this camera!"

[Mal]

Well, 24peter, I was with you on all points, but looking closely at Norbert's footage; using my own comparisons with the HV20 and a MiniDV Sony cam; and with watching the HV20 footage AFTER the usual shakyness was removed (with Steadyhand software); I can conclude, that what Norbert is talking about....

has nothing to do with 1) nor 2) of your post!

#3 however, yes, that's indeed what's going on.

Now, I don't want to discount your 1) and 2) completely, as they will naturally effect the outcome of the resulting footage. But this is DEFINITELY not what Norbert is so upset about.

It took me a while to see this, I admit; and I needed to take away the normal shakeyness first. Check that clip that I uploaded; it's an eyeopener!

(Not trying to be smart about this, just trying to get to the bottom of it....)

[Norbert]

I would like to get to the bottom of this also. Maybe I should load the battery for my HV20 again and make a direct comparison between that and my Sony minidv camera, both on my stabilizer, before I return the HV20.
I should be able to get a far more stable image from the Sony. I'll be back with clips ASAP.

[Mal]

Yes, that would be great, Norbert.
If possible, remove the "normal" shake with Steadyhand (http://www.dynapel.com/products/steadyhand_trial.shtml) (trialversion).
That way you should be easily able to identify the wobble.

Wobble, by the way, is the perfect description of what's going on.
Unfortunately your identified problem easily gets dismissed as usual handheld shakeyness, which it isn't. Running the SONY DV footage and the HV20 footage through Steadyhand will easily show the difference.

EDIT: by the way, to make it easier, I reduced both the HV20 footage, and some Sony footage to SD (DV) for import to Steadyhand, in a quick test I did yesterday.

[Norbert]

I will do it first thing tomorrow.

When this wobbly footage gets dismissed as just usual handheld shakyness I start to wonder if everyone has this problem with their HV20 without realizing it's a problem. If that is the case I hope someone will contact Canon and convince them that this is a problem that needs to be fixed.

[Mal]

...I hope someone will contact Canon and convince them that this is a problem that needs to be fixed.

I agree, unless it's simply something inherent with a CMOS and HDV?
Canon won't be able to solve that one easily.

Since I am now convinced (maybe erroneously) that this will only happen during fast horizontal movement, one could argue of course, that using a stabilizer of some sort will eliminate the problem.

Also, it would mean that [horizontal] pans would have to adhere to below certain speeds. But given that we are forced to do these low speeds anyway if we use 24p (or 25p), that one is not such a big issue at all.

[Norbert]

Is the HV20 the first HDV camera to use a single CMOS?

I think you'd have to define a fast horizontal movement. I don't have to walk fast at all to make the image wobble. As soon as I take the first step even with the stabilizer on a plane surface like a floor, the image starts to wobble, no matter how fast or slow. Heck, I got a more steady image out of walking with my old DVX100 over large rocks and fallen trees in the woods using only a tripod as a stabilizer.

The kind of stabilizer I have built will reduce horizontal movement but it doesn't reduce vertical movement just as good. It's like the FigRig only without the ring. Still, I can get pleasing results (to my eye) with my old Sony on that stabilizer but not with the HV20.

I haven't had any problems with pans on a tripod however. I will try a really fast horizontal pan tomorrow as well.

[Mal]

Okay, let's break this down REAL SIMPLE.
One thing at a time.

Let's forget the whole handheld thing; I think that is unnecessarily complicating & confusing the matter.
It happens to be where this was "discovered", but we shouldn't look at this from that point of view.

So here's a little experiment:

HV20 (USA model) from 5 minutes ago.

HV20 on a TRIPOD.

Sturdy.

Level.

Now, this is what it looks like panning slowly or standing still:
http://hv20.info/yopu/still.jpg

This is a screen capture of what it looks like panning fast:
http://hv20.info/yopu/panning.jpg

So, this line obviously should stay vertical, not bent like that. The faster the pan, the more bent that gets.
This is well illustrated with a vertical line; but of course there's the same thing going on with any subject.
That's why when you look at Norbert's modified clip I posted, you will find it all wobbly/spongy.

I believe shutter was at 1/100th sec, in 24p mode.

Here's a movie of this experiment slowed down to 30% (THIS MEANS THAT THERE WAS A SIGNIFICANTLY FASTER
PAN BACK AND FORTH THAN THIS. Sorry, don't mean to shout, I just don't want anyone to think
that this was the ACTUAL speed. It wasn't.):
http://hv20.info/yopu/shakey.mov
(about 1,7MB, Sorenson 3 MOV file, not pretty, terrible shot, but it's the wobble that counts!)

So, this is what's happening.

[Melachrino]

Mal: Nice test. Sacrebleu!

Is this a 24p processing artifact ?

I went to my local dealer a couple of hours ago and re-tested the HV20 for the wigglies and the diagonal lag. Nice vertical and horizontal references, good lighting in the store. Indeed, panning showed the effect desribed to some degree. However, the camera was in HDV24 mode. I switched it to HDV and the wigglies were gone, and motion rendition was as good as expected. I could not test in low light to check for shutter/iris processing artifacts causing the wigglies.

(In addition, I retested the OIS and worked excellent for my conditions. Turning it off, showed all my usual shakes and rolls... The three focusing methods also worked marvelously. Instant focus, a plus, normal focus very good if you do not want the focus jumps, and manual focus with focus assist is a winner in my book.)

There is another possible cause of the diagonal rendition and it may have to do with any form of noise reduction or any other use of field or frame memory to produce a picture. When the recirculation factor is set high, to reduce noise or combine stills, you get lag and ghosting. I cannot think of any mechanical or correctly done MPEG2 processing that can do what you show. That is why I am suspicious of the 24p mode you show in your test. Can you try it at 60i to prove me wrong ? (That is how I learn...)

[Mal]

That is why I am suspicious of the 24p mode you show in your test. Can you try it at 60i to prove me wrong ? (That is how I learn...)

Sacré bleu is right! (used spell check to get that right ---> my french isn't THAT good! :))

I can tell you ARE wrong. :) I just did the same test and at 60i it does EXACTLY the same thing. To PROVE you're wrong I'd have to upload the footage, and it's too late for that, so you just have to take my word for it. :hv20-smilie81:

Funny, because I thought you might be on to something there....so I was a little disappointed when the same crooked lines showed up...:(

[24Peter]

My understanding is the whole diagonal sheering effect is just the nature of the beast right now with the CMOS sensors. Hopefully, they'll come up with ways to compensate for it in firmware. Or else in future versions of the camera.

[Mal]

Yes, I think that's exactly it.
I honestly think for most stuff, this is NOT going to show anyway.

[Norbert]

Mal: I think you nailed it pretty much with your test. I haven't done the comparison yet but I don't think it's necessary now?

I agree it will not show for most stuff, but I want to be able to do steady shots with my stabilizer like I did with my Sony, so if the HV20 can't work better than this right now then I will wait.

Someone should definitely contact Canon and ask what might be causing this problem instead of doing all this reverse engineering.
If it appears to be caused by the CMOS censor, then shouldn't all Sony HC cameras have the same issue also?

EDIT: I did a comparison of the HV20 and my old Sony, both on a stabilizer just for the heck of it. As I expected, the footage from the HV20 looked far more shaky because of this issue we are having. However, shooting DV with the HV20 shows less wobbles if no wobbles at all. 25p HDV seemed to wobble a little bit more than 50i HDV, but my tests are not made in a controlled enviorment by a machine so it says nothing really. One thing is for sure though, out of all the test runs I did I always got more stable footage from my old Sony.

[nana ban]

he norbert

i was wondering with the amount of people having this same problem
did you return your camera do any of the dealers know about this i am
going to contact mine and find out if anybody has mentioned this in uk
and send e-mail to canon uk and see if any reply but i would love to know if faulty batch of cameras or is per normal for this new camera.

[Melachrino]

Mal: Merci beaucoup for the 60i test. That seems to leave out the processing part of the chain.

Question: does the HV20 optical stabilizer, on and off, influence your results in any way ? It seems strange that a stabilizer that works so well, at least in my tests, would be the cause of the wobblies, but it could if the optical low frequency damping is off or bad.

On the other hand (another possible learning point for me like the previous one) I cannot see how the CMOS sensors cause the wobblies.

(So much to learn...so little time...)

[Emanuel]

I've just two points:

1) Is this a PAL issue? Or is the NTSC version less noticeable on this wobbly hassle?

2) Are there defective PAL units being distributed and delivered?

[Mal]

I've just two points:

1) Is this a PAL issue? Or is the NTSC version less noticeable on this wobbly hassle?

2) Are there defective PAL units being distributed and delivered?

Actually, since you double posted, I guess you have 4 points! :)

You should read the thread, as all is revealed.
1) It's a CMOS issue, not PAL or NTSC
2) No, noi defective units, at least not regarding this issue

(IMHO only)

[Emanuel]

Actually, since you double posted, I guess you have 4 points! :)LOL (be welcome with your good humor -- they are the words from this newcomer here who I hope not only a newcomer as actually all these new members are but a poster for a long time...)

:hv20-smilie72:

Fixed, from now though. :hv20-smilie64: My mobile ISP has been crazy and puts my edits wobbly crazy as well. It really seems it's not only the HV20 working as-like. :hv20-smilie81:

:)


You should read the thread, as all is revealed.
1) It's a CMOS issue, not PAL or NTSC
2) No, noi defective units, at least not regarding this issue

(IMHO only)Thanks for your input. I have the same impression too. However, there is a rumor spreading all over the net, as it's possible to check here (in this case it was posted by our good fellow Rafa -- hv20.com user, as well :hv20-smilie70:):

http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthread.php?t=95860

If the enlightenment doesn't come as more than our own opinions... Is there any possibility to have this wobbly issue more noticeable on the PAL 50Hz version than the 60Hz model?

[Mal]

Yeah, it's certainly possible that we are discussing two different things in this thread anyway; the Norbert-wobble might NOT be what I am pointing out (with the crooked line). In the end, I guess CANON will have to weigh in on this, as others have mentioned.

But anyway, WELCOME Emanuel! :hv20-smilie03:

[Norbert]

Question: does the HV20 optical stabilizer, on and off, influence your results in any way ?Nope, it doesn't seem to have any effect on the wobbles I'm getting, just the regular shakyness.

[Emanuel]

Yeah, it's certainly possible that we are discussing two different things in this thread anyway; the Norbert-wobble might NOT be what I am pointing out (with the crooked line). In the end, I guess CANON will have to weigh in on this, as others have mentioned.

But anyway, WELCOME Emanuel! :hv20-smilie03:After watching the samples, I've been changing my mind. Here's my post @dvxuser.com on this [LINK (http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthread.php?p=936562#post936562)]:

«I had a different opinion before. After downloading all the files (or almost), my guts are:

There's some with these PAL version units -- too much sensitive in terms of roller shutter comparing with other units. Austin Meyers' sample, for instance:

[LINK (http://dvinfo.net/conf/showpost.php?p=668760&postcount=15)]

Is there better example?

The question is:

Is there or not a noticeable difference between NTSC vs. PAL versions regarding the roller shutter issue?

Taken these examples I'd say: YES.

To notice that there is a similar problem with the NTSC version units, it's to put a mask on it. 'cause of course the CMOS is there too, the roller shutter as well. But taking both examples (Norbert vs. Meyers) there's a great difference.

What's up? Defective units? Or "just" a defective PAL manufacturing?

Unless, other units may prove this conclusion as a wrong conclusion.»

Thanks for your kind words!

[nana ban]

i contacted canon uk on the "wobblys" i spoke to a person from support
who said that there was no issues with this camcorder(personally i think this
person was not very technical minded as she was confused many times what i was saying ?) so i have contacted them by e-mail to try and get a knowledgeable techi who may be able to give a better reply i await there response.

[Norbert]

That's good. We need a techy answer from Canon. I was thinking of contacting Canon Sweden about this but I had a feeling I would just end up talking to the support team and they are usually not the techheads.

By the way, a guy over at dvinfo had the exact same problem I have, and he has an NTSC HV20 from when it was recently released. Here's the thread: http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?t=89865&highlight=stable
Download the footage he posted in the first post. It shows the same kind of distortion of the image that I'm getting.

[Emanuel]

Check the two Austin Meyers' samples:

http://file.meyersproduction.com/hv20/hv20%20issues%20720p.mov

http://file.meyersproduction.com/hv20/hv20%20steady.mov

On the 1st it is the same thing than yours, Ron/Norbert. But on the 2nd? There's no "the" same outcome. Why?

It seems this problem affects the PAL version more than the NTSC version.

There's a new thread here (it seems something similar):

http://hv20.com/showthread.php?t=171

PAL unit again.

Shall it be fair to call it more noticeable with PAL than NTSC?

[Norbert]

Good point, Emanuel. I have a feeling that if I put my HV20 on that stabilizer and ran around with it like that it would still be wobbly as ****.

[Numbox]

I have a PAL version, but have not noticed any wobbliness :hv20-smilie113:

sure, the picture is jerky, but a lot of that is just my fault, but no wobbliness.

EDIT: I just came home and started to shoot and, although there is no wobbliness, i did however notice that the vertical lines do get a little bent towards the side when they're not in the middle of the shot. It's not much, but definitely noticeable if you 're looking for it :(

[Norbert]

Numbox, would you be able to post a small clip walking with the camera handheld at full wide-angle with IMG STAB turned on?

[Numbox]

Numbox, would you be able to post a small clip walking with the camera handheld at full wide-angle with IMG STAB turned on?

ok, will do it when i get the apropriate shot. what am i looking for - moving objects or non moving ones?

also, can you tell me how to turn OIS on/off and is there a way to change the forum color from default black/green to something like gray or whit/black?

EDIT: Aaaaaaaaaaah, damn it, i've only seen one clip today at work, the one at the swimming pool or something and i completely missinterpreted what you ment by wobbling. The way video was encoded, it seemed to me there was wobbling in the moving objects. Don't know how to explain it really, but i was completely missreading the whole thread, what you meant by wobbling i always thought of as shaking. Now that i've downloaded your clip, it's clear to me what you meant by wobbling. And unfortunately, it's present in my recordings too, it's just that i've always contributed that to my own shaky hands. Strangely enough, i have some random shots made in a driving car, just shooting the road, and those were much steadyer, at least to me.

[Norbert]

It seems that while standing or sitting still with the camera in your hand, it doesn't wobble like that... much. At least not as bad as when you take it for a little walk.

You just confirmed my theory that all HV20s may have this problem and that very few owners see it as a problem. If this had been my first video camera I surely would have just blamed my shaky hands too, but I have owned other video cameras, both consumer and prosumer, and never experienced anything like this before.

This is however my first personal encounter with HDV. Does the image behave like this on all HDV cameras? If that is the case then I'm no longer so sure that HDV is something for me.

[Numbox]

You just confirmed my theory that all HV20s may have this problem and that very few owners see it as a problem.
i did see it as a problem, but i really do have pretty shakey hands, and i doubt i'd get great results with any camera and that's why i thought it's my fault and not the camera's.


Maybe i should quit smoking :hv20-smilie122:

[bitty]

Im no CMOS/CCD engineer, but the example of the straight line going sideways at fast pans (on page 2) could be explained as to how the sensor performs its image aquisition.

either :-

1 ) CMOS sensor captures entire frame at once and stores entire frame as a single picture then the image is transferred to the DSP/Digic processor. The same way that an image is aquired on film as one complete snapshot.

2 ) CMOS sensor is given a 'signal' to capture the image, this signal is not sent to all the pixels at once but is rather 'passed' along from pixel to pixel and/or the captured image is streamed to the DSP in a top to bottom, left to right nature.

If it is scanning the sensor from top to bottom, left to right, then perhaps as the CMOS sensor is doing its 'capture' by the time the image is captured as a single frame (remember we are scanning over 2 million elements) the image being captured has moved as the camera is moving. Given this it would explain the apparent distortion..

Im not sure if higher end cameras/imaging elements have additional circuitry so that the cmos element captures and stores an entire frame in a single 'click' and then streams the data to the DSP, which would mean each cmos element would require memory on chip in so as to allow the entire frame to be captured in one go... Given the price of the HV20 I'm inclined to think that the cmos is read one element at a time in a progressive nature at a very high speed (but not fast enough to counter the sheering effect at high speed pans). This effect would therefore also be visible on fast moving objects that are close.

[Norbert]

Apparently the leaning vertical line example is caused by the rolling shutter.

[bitty]

Hi Norbert,

Thanks for that... I guess my hypothesis was the long winded way of saying 'rolling shutter' <grin>

Page 83 on the PAL HV20 manual actually briefly talks about the phenomena..

I did run into a good page that demonstrates this effect

http://www.ptgrey.com/support/kb/index.asp?a=4&q=115

I also ran into this piece of 'ooh ahh' hardware

http://www.siliconimaging.com/SI-1920HD%20Specs.htm

While I know its a different beast, it shows what CMOS technology can do.

[Emanuel]

Yup. Nevertheless, I'm also asking myself if the problem would be or not a PAL vs. NTSC issue on rolling shutter.

Ron, wouldn't it be also a shutter speed hassle at progressive mode?

Here is a 25p@1/25 example you probably already know, smooth enough challenging or even defeating the PAL theory:

LINK (http://dvinfo.net/conf/showpost.php?p=669024&postcount=21)

[Emanuel]

Interesting update here:

http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthread.php?p=939651#post939651

«This issue is definitely rolling shutter. The reason the PAL version seems more affected than the NTSC version is because of the higher clock speed to get to the 60i/60P required for NTSC, rather than the 50i/50P for PAL. Higher clock speeds equate to faster read-out times (faster time for the read-out from the top to the bottom of the sensor), which means less rolling shutter.» ~ Jason Rodriguez, Silicon Imaging Team

[Numbox]

Numbox, would you be able to post a small clip walking with the camera handheld at full wide-angle with IMG STAB turned on?
Here's the clip. It's a very uneven surface and i wasn't being careful how i was walking and also i didn't even try to hold my hand as still as possible, just normal walking and shooting. The cam was set at 25p, TV@25.

http://files.filefront.com//;7443912;/

[Norbert]

Maybe slower shutter speed means less rolling shutter artifacts?

[Mal]

Numbox's footage = Norbert's footage

(from what I can tell....)

[Numbox]

So, is that something that could be corrected with a firmware upgrade or is it here to stay? Does mounting something heavy on the camera really help to steady the image?

[Norbert]

Yeah I could see the same wobblyness in your footage too, Numbox. /=

I think those are the questions that's on everybody's mind right now. If it's caused by the rolling shutter I don't think any firmware upgrade would do the trick?
I don't know if anyone has even contacted Canon about this. I just know that many are holding off their purchase because of this issue.
I don't have the energy myself but I wish someone could contact the techheads at Canon and explain this problem to them as good as possible and ask them if they can fix it or if it's just something you have to live with for that kind of money. I mean, this camera is pretty cheap.

The HV20 is still a killer if you are mostly using a tripod, dolly, etc.

[Numbox]

Does anyone know was it like that with HV10 also?

[Numbox]

So i read on the afore-linked topics that it's the 25p related error, so i went and shot the same thing with 25p turned off, and the wobbling is almost completely gone. Heh.

I'll upload a comparison shot in a little while where you can clearly see a huge difference.

EDIT: Here it is, i think it's clearly visible that in the non 25p (how do you call it, interlaced?) mode there's just normal shakyness and no wobbling, atleast not that much. Even at the end when i'm zooming there's still not as much wobbling as there is in the 25p shot. Your thoughts?
http://files.filefront.com//;7445064;/

And here's the same comparison using split screen.
http://files.filefront.com/7445145

Tell me, am i just convincing myself that it looks better or is it for real?

[Norbert]

I thought about that too so I did a comparison. I still got the same wobbling at 50i though. I'm downloading your clip now.
For the comparison I also shot DV with the HV20 and that did not show any wobbling, so I would say it's some sort of problem with the HDV side of the camera.

EDIT: I had to go earlier so I never finished downloading your clip. I'm downloading both right now so I will be back with comments. All I can say now is that it's all good as long as it looks good to your eye. Even if I had liked what I saw when I shot interlaced I would still return my camera because I bought it mostly because I wanted to be able to shoot 25p.

EDIT #2: I can still see some of that wobbling in your interlaced footage but it doesn't look quite as bad as the 25p footage. But I'd say if it looks all right to you and you are satisfied then it's all good. I just couldn't use mine when it behaved like that.

[Emanuel]

Ron, isn't 25p@1/25 acceptable?

LINK (http://dvinfo.net/conf/showpost.php?p=669024&postcount=21)

[Numbox]

Ok, just to sum up, is this wobbly image thing a deffect or is it just the way HV20 behaves?

Emanuel - i'm new to all this, so what does "@1/25" mean? Is that the TV apperture setting on the cam or what? Cause i can't see 1/25 anywhere, just 25.

[Emanuel]

Ok, just to sum up, is this wobbly image thing a deffect or is it just the way HV20 behaves?Good question. I'd like if Ron/Norbert could go until the end, replacing his unit. Then, we could properly know better if the same shooter would change or not his opinion. :hv20-smilie58:

Frankly speaking, I can't know what's the Ron/Norbert's work. But IMHO, there's no competitor to the best cinematic picture out there. HV20 rules. My only concern is to know what's the best solution to solve the rolling shutter issue. PAL or NTSC? Or is there any chance to handle with the rolling shutter?


Emanuel - i'm new to all this, so what does "@1/25" mean? Is that the TV apperture setting on the cam or what? Cause i can't see 1/25 anywhere, just 25.@ = at :hv20-smilie87: 1/25th of a second shutter.

Shutter = http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shutter_(photography)

In the motion picture realm, the shutter is normally a 1/48th one (24 frames per second) or a 1/50th if @25fps (PAL TV). Unless when the idea is to get a more video-like look or motion blur feel (slowing down the shutter). The period of time when the shutter is open and closed for to achieve the number of frames (per second).

I left here a question to Jason (SI/Cineform 2K cinema camera team who have gave a good help to a fair enlightenment in order to know how to understand it):

http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthread.php?p=940387#post940387

[Norbert]

I'll have to inform you guys that I called just now and told them to not send me a new camera. Stupid, I know, but I didn't want to go through the hassle of sending another camera back. After discussing this problem here and on dvxuser I am fairly confident that this was not just one defective unit.

Emanuel: I tried 1/25 once but I could still see the problem. Even if the problem had gone away at 1/25 I personally don't want to be restricted to 1/25, especially not for moving shots. I want to be able to at least use 1/50, and higher shutter speeds for (moving) action shots.

However, I will follow the development of the HV20 to see if Canon can fix this problem. So far I don't think Canon even knows about these discussions?

[Emanuel]

I'll have to inform you guys that I called just now and told them to not send me a new camera. Stupid, I know, but I didn't want to go through the hassle of sending another camera back.I guessed from I could read @dvxuser.com.


After discussing this problem here and on dvxuser I am fairly confident that this was not just one defective unit.

Emanuel: I tried 1/25 once but I could still see the problem. Even if the problem had gone away at 1/25 I personally don't want to be restricted to 1/25, especially not for moving shots. I want to be able to at least use 1/50, and higher shutter speeds for (moving) action shots.I understand. And what about a 24p shooting from a NTSC version? I'm thinking to buy a PAL unit and after if I won't go well maybe I'll be ordering a NTSC version as well. After all, they're just 700 euros more. Of course, if it worths the purchase. That is, if the NTSC behaves differently going with higher shutter speeds for (moving) action shots. Although it seems this is not the best capture device for action or sports shots.


However, I will follow the development of the HV20 to see if Canon can fix this problem. So far I don't think Canon even knows about these discussions?I doubt. It doesn't seem so. It's a rolling shutter issue from the CMOS technology. But that's the price to pay for the best cinematic picture, IMHO. The point shall be to know how to deal with this rolling shutter issue.

On the Canon's watching, I know other people here (customer of mine) following this soap indeed. But even if they can be Canon customers, they ain't Canon people. :hv20-smilie49:

[Mal]

I still think it would be worth seeing if this wobble is present with a properly stabilized movement shot.

Anyone with a HV20 got a nice stabilizer? Merlin? Glidecam 2000?

[Emanuel]

Here's a fine example of a HV20 clip flying with a Merlin:

LINK (http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showpost.php?p=663836&postcount=19)

For sure, I have no clue on the shooting specs but since I've had some contact with Charles Papert, I can try to send him an email in order to know something on that (+ shutter speed, etc).

[Norbert]

It looks nice and stable on the merlin for sure, but I can still see those little glitches every now and then. I don't know if it's the camera that's causing the glitches or if it's the compression. Don't get me wrong, it looks like you can get useful footage when using it with a merlin but it's not exactly a cheap workaround.
Sometimes I think I am too picky for my own good. :P

[Numbox]

However, I will follow the development of the HV20 to see if Canon can fix this problem. So far I don't think Canon even knows about these discussions? If they can fix it, do you think they they could fix the ones we have or would it just be for the new ones?

[Numbox]

@ = at :hv20-smilie87: 1/25th of a second shutter.


I know what @ means :hv20-smilie31:

I don't know where i can choose that 1/25 option, i'm assuming it's that TV thingie in the same menu where i choose cinemode?

[Emanuel]

I know what @ means :hv20-smilie31:

I don't know where i can choose that 1/25 option, i'm assuming it's that TV thingie in the same menu where i choose cinemode?Sorry, I couldn't be useful since I'm not a HV20 user. Try the manual. I hope you go well.


If they can fix it, do you think they they could fix the ones we have or would it just be for the new ones?Take a look on this Jason's input:

http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showpost.php?p=940424&postcount=69

Maybe he may answer your doubt. It doesn't seem this may be fixed by firmware. It seems it's more a question of...to live or not live with a CMOS sensor.

[Norbert]

Yeah it seems to be the CMOS + rolling shutter that's causing it and if that is indeed true then the people at Canon have some engineering to do if they are going to fix it.

By the way, did you guys read about the new Canon HR10? It will also have a CMOS sensor, so it will be interesting to compare it to the HV20 in terms of stable image.

[Mal]

By the way, did you guys read about the new Canon HR10? It will also have a CMOS sensor, so it will be interesting to compare it to the HV20 in terms of stable image.

Thanks Norbert; I've added its own section.

[Vicne]

As requested by Emanuel in another thread, here's my experience regarding wobbly shooting, FWIW....

I must say that in general I try to be as stable as I can and I avoid walking while shooting, and I never noticed such a "wobble". I think the OIS is designed to compensate for slight uncontrollable trembling of one's hands and not ample movements of a walking body. Just like taking a still photo with a stabilized lens limits blur when shutter speed is low - it isn't generally meant to shoot while you're moving on purpose...

Although, I just tried to reproduce that behavior and can indeed get such an effect when walking fast or running on uneven ground - which means *I am* unstable : http://files.filefront.com//;7464982;;/

The fact is that first, this camcorder is small and light, and that obviously makes steady shooting hard to achieve. Even moving one's finger to reach the photo button almost inevitably makes your shot unsteady, let alone the unreachable "FUNC" button - you need your left hand for that one.
Second, movements are amplified if you're in tele, of course, but even at its widest angle, the HV20 is only a 43mm equivalent, so not that wide in the end.
Finally, you're watching it in HD or full screen on a PC, so all that makes movements even more apparent.

I am not very experienced with other camcorders but I personally don't consider that behavior a camera problem, really. However, I can imagine that other brands or other models are able to better compensate such movements...

Just my opinion, of course...

Vicne

[Melachrino]

First, I must acknowledge the positive contribution of all participants in this thread because they have illuminated a possible major deficiency in the HV20, and perhaps other CMOS cameras, which now bear closer scrutiny.

I have stopped considering buying the canon HV20 for now until the root problem is fixed. After all, for HD one wants the best video possible, not a smeary, blurred or distorted one.

The good news is that the slant or diagonal skew problem is well known in the imaging community, as members have described, and as Mal has shown in his revealing pan test, and I have verified elsewhere.

The better news is that it can be fixed but it requires a re-design of the CMOS shuttering method. It appears that Canon bean counters overpowered the video quality designers and cost reduced the overall sensor circuitry such that there may not be enough circuitry to perform fast, global shuttering as some call it..

CMOS by themselves are not at fault, they just work differently than CCD's. In fact, nowadays CMOS are used for high speed photography and for high speed video monitoring of fast production processes. But, they use fast global shutters and definitely not the infamous rolling shutters.

For a very good, summary discussion and description of the problem and solution you may wish to visit the Dalsa site.

www.dalsa.com/shared/content/PDFs/Photonik_CMOS_Shuttering_English.pdf

Thank you all for the alert and heads up. This site is worth its weight in gold...

[Mal]

Many thanks for the kind words regarding this forum, and its members' contributions (incl. yours! :))
:hv20-smilie77:


I have stopped considering buying the canon HV20 for now until the root problem is fixed.
After all, for HD one wants the best video possible, not a smeary, blurred or distorted one.

See, this is EXACTLY what I suspected would result from this thread. It is a shame that anyone would base their
buying decision on what is being discussed in this thread.
Nevertheless, it is an important discussion, and everyone has their own
opinion on what is important and what isn't.

Let me elaborate though, if I may...

EVERY product - and especially every new product type - has its flaws.
It's an inevitability. And all this is even more true for new video cameras.

Heck: remember the tube cams (Saticon, etc.) from the 80s?
They were revolutionary! But those streaks of light when moving past a bright light source were horrible!

"Remember" MiniDV? And all its terrible red jaggy edges? Well, we still live with that to this day,
and there's been MANY big time movies made with that technology.
To the future: RED ONE, a fantastic camera able to shoot full 4k footage.
But I bet there WILL be problems with it too.

We are in a world where NOTHING is perfect.

Melachrino, the problem about the way the shutter works with these
CMOS cams, is almost a non-event. As with all the examples above,
there's VERY simple ways to work with the technology available to us.
I think the "wobble" is not exaggerated here, but I think the actual way in
which it would manifest itself in every day shooting (and full fledged productions) is miniscule.

The HV20 (and similar cams) is an AMAZING leap forward, and it produces
STUNNING footage. To dismiss it because of this flaw is a real shame,
especially as it will take [probably] years to avoid this altogether....if ever.

Anyway, I will close this sermon (:)) with following statement:

http://hv20.info/yopu/Image10.gif

:hv20-smilie03:

[Mal]

...and in the words of Winston Churchill:

"Many forms of video capture have been tried and will be tried in this world of sin and woe.
No one pretends that the HV20's CMOS is perfect or all wise.
Indeed, it has been said that HV20's HDV is the worst form of video,
except for all the others that have been tried from time to time."

(might not be exactly what he said....but close enough! :))

[Emanuel]

it is an important discussion, and everyone has their own
opinion on what is important and what isn't.

Let me elaborate though, if I may...

EVERY product - and especially every new product type - has its flaws.
It's an inevitability. And all this is even more true for new video cameras.

Heck: remember the tube cams (Saticon, etc.) from the 80s?
They were revolutionary! But those streaks of light when moving past a bright light source were horrible!

"Remember" MiniDV? And all its terrible red jaggy edges? Well, we still live with that to this day,
and there's been MANY big time movies made with that technology.
To the future: RED ONE, a fantastic camera able to shoot full 4k footage.
But I bet there WILL be problems with it too.

We are in a world where NOTHING is perfect.You took the words from my mind. And from several exchange of ideas with other people abroad related to other frontiers. The point is: Is it acceptable or not? Is it suitable or not? Can it handle the task or not?

How can we surpass the difficulties?

@dvxuser.com on HV20 subject, there's the same issue under scrutiny... With me, it has been happening exactly the opposite: such discussion makes me believe whether PAL@1/25 whether NTSC, there's a solution and I can't live without the best cinematic picture I can afford (beyond other aspects such as form factor, handheld convenience, etc).

This talk meant to be an open discussion purpose -- after all, what for we are here?


<PS>

HV20 + RED ONE will shoot my upcoming 128 pages length feature.

[Vicne]

We are in a world where NOTHING is perfect.

Agreed 100%.

My feeling is that today, the HV20 (or HV10 btw) gives the best HD picture for a consumer camcorder.

Yes, wobbly shooting will happen if you really want to walk around while shooting without any precaution... If you want to avoid it, you can either move more slowly and with caution, or, as was said, use a specific stabilizer such as the Merlin. Then you can get smooth shooting (http://web.mac.com/chupap/iWeb/Films/MerlinHV20.html) with the HV20 for sure (*).

It depends what you intend to shoot of course, but personally, I really prefer to have an OIS compensating my trembling hands and giving super sharp 1080i hand-held image than having it stabilize my body movements while running at the cost of blurry shooting when I stand still. Now is it possible to have both... future will tell.

I admit I may be biased as I have chosen it already, so my advice for anyone hesitating is "try it". If you're disappointed, try another one and see if it's better. Then come back and tell us your feeling :-)

Just my 2 cents...

Kind regards,

Vicne

(*) Don't get me wrong, this shot was made by Charles Papert who's a prefessional camera operator. He also put the wide angle adapter (which reduces the effect of movements) and DM50 mic on to get more ballast, as explained in this thread (http://dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?p=663836#post663836). And the Merlin isn't cheap as was mentioned before...

[bitty]

Yes the HV20 isn't perfect, it has its weaknesses
Yes its classified as a consumer grade product
Yes its performance in low light isn't as good as high end cameras costing $8K+

and YES its image quality in well lit scenes that probably constitute 95% of recording situations, is damn amazing for something so 'consumer' oriented and priced..

It is one of the best HDV cameras currently on the market within its price range and gives us progressive capture that only recently would have been out of the reach of many of us financially.

I could babble on and on and write a thesis, but to be short, if one bought a HV20 because of its professional imaging capabilities then one should be using the camera like a professional.. To demonstrate my point watch any good movie and you'll notice they use zoom sparingly, they don't move around the camera too much, they have multiple angles of the same scene, use steady cams etc etc -- you get my point. Now I know most of us are not shooting movies, but the techniques and methods can be applied where possible to give our captured video a polished professional look.

I think most of us should be grateful that Canon engineers have been able to create for us such a fantastic product, that no doubt sets a new standard for consumer cameras and helps spur on development and competition to create even better ones.

In the end, we as consumers, benefit by being able to get our hands on these new cameras that allow us to capture like never before, the wonder, beauty and diversity of our planet and humanity...

[bluegrass]

Bitty states "It is one of the best HDV cameras currently on the market within its price range and gives us progressive capture that only recently would have been out of the reach of many of us financially."

I think your summation puts this camcorder in the right perspective. Well said, Bitty.

[moira]

Ive been watching this thread and any others I can find and was seriously thinking of buying something else. But reason took over,the majority of buyers love this camera,hundreds of thousands have been sold with no problems and I watch every clip that my poor old PC allows me . Youtube is about the most reliable and quick viewing,I know the video is mangled to upload to there ,but I've been quite happy with what Ive viewed ( yes I know some are pathetic but who's to say my own won't be sometimes:hv20-smilie84: ).
I was really upset that I'd have to search all over again,believe me,Ive read every post,review,opinion on the HV20 I can find....hours and hours of research. So thanks for pointing the "problem" out,for offering reasons,solutions but most of all,thanks for the reassurance in the last few posts. BTW my eyes aren't as experienced as you video whizzes, I mightn't have noticed anything anyway. Ive just ordered my cam this afternoon:hv20-smilie70:

[24Peter]

Nice to see reason prevail. Congrats moira!

[bluegrass]

weebles wobble but they don't fall down.

[David]

I don't think this has been posted here already, but here's another thread with some crazy footage:

http://cybermessageboard.fatcow.com/ssonte/viewtopic.php?p=1880#1880

Helicopter footage that makes my head hurt:
http://www.ssontech.com/content/skool.mov

[Norbert]

Good points being made here. I think everyone that considers the HV20 should definitely try it out for themselves to determine if it will do the job well. Personally I found it hard to embrace the wobble because I simply couldn't trust it. I based my decision on the fact that the HV20 did not work well with the simple stabilizer I had built myself, which worked really good with my old Sony. If I would've been able to afford a Merlin to go with the HV20 instead I think I would've kept my HV20.

[Emanuel]

Yes, Ron (Norbert). Wise words. Merlin rocks. But we should not forget that 25p@1/25 clip -- despite the motion blur (IMHO a good solution in order to deal with the wobble), was shot from a $14 stabilizer...

Moira, KUDOS (I hope my input had help you on your purchase decision) -- once again IMHO, this camcorder is consumer vs. pro agnostic... and future proof via HDMI and its native 1920x1080 true high resolution (better than the lower 960x540 'pixel shifted' HVX200).

EDIT -- Last but not least, I had a place in the cue in order to buy the HVX200 (I meant with an "X" plus a "0") before going to the streets. And I didn't buy it... On the HV20?...(just) not yet. No previous connection with Canon (so far...).

[Slicer]

I'm still considering buying the HV20 but would like to see the rolling shutter issue to see how easy (or hard) it is to produce the effect.

I believe I read here that it's not visible in the viewfinder nor the lcd display. If I went to a store that had it connected to a monitor would it be visible on that? Or is it only visible on playback of a recorded video?

FYI, I'm interested in buying this for general consumer use and panning the camera seems like a pretty basic function of taking a video of something (ie: following my son as he runs down the soccer field, etc...) I'm just curious as to how fast or jarring the panning has to be to make this issue appear.

[John Godden]

I still think it would be worth seeing if this wobble is present with a properly stabilized movement shot.

Anyone with a HV20 got a nice stabilizer? Merlin? Glidecam 2000?

I have a Glidecam 2000 and HV20. I'm hoping to get the two together this weekend.

FWIW: I'm having (perhaps) similar "wobbly" problems with my HV20. I'm NOT willing to state it as fact but my short videos do seem VERY-VERY blurry/wobbly when the camera is moved. I will try to get some more samples to confirm this issue. So far.............. I'm a bit worried. :hv20-smilie49:

Regards
JohnG

[Norbert]

Here's a thread created by a guy that takes this as seriously as I do: http://cybermessageboard.fatcow.com/ssonte/viewtopic.php?p=1880#1880
Have a look at his video clips a bit further down the thread as well, as they show this issue very well.
The point being made is that if the wobbling/skewed lines is a problem for you and you need to make smooth moving shots, then you should probably not be looking at CMOS cameras with a rolling shutter at all. It seems to be well known that CMOS with rolling shutter is not really a perfect solution but it is apparently cheap to make so it helps so keep the price of the camera down.

I for one have learned that CMOS with rolling shutter is nothing for me, but I stand by my statement. Everyone should try the camera out and see if it fits their own needs.

[Mal]

Okay.

I have the slight feeling that this thread is repeating itself...a lot. Not sure if I should put my moderator hat on...
http://hv20.com/shouting.gif
...or not.

We seem to be going in circles a little bit.
I think the only thing this is now going to achieve is that persons new to videography are going to shy away
from buying the HV20. Yet, interestingly enough, they would of [probably] NEVER used the HV20 in a helicopter in the first place. :hv20-smilie51: :hv20-smilie49:

The "crooked" line syndrome has been well established already. Heck, I even made a test and uploaded
it in this thread. But I really think we are simply going over the same ground again and again. I was seriously
considering locking this thread for a little bit, but I so don't want to do that.

If we could simply chill a bit; hope that Canon will address the inherent wobble in a CMOS chipped cam
in one way or another; learn how to deal with it, and keep suggesting tips on how to avoid
the wobble from ever showing up in one's footage, that would be a cool thing. Let's keep this
as positive as we can, please.
The wobble has been well established by now, let's focus on how to deal with it.

And I am not writing all this to criticise anyone in particular; this post is not meant as a follow-up to the
post immediately preceding it; I am just trying to not let this get all negative.
I hope that is welcomed and understood by everyone here in this HV20-family.

Otherwise, I am starting to feel a bit like the guy with the wobble in the eye here:

http://hv20.com/beatthedeadhorse.gif

[Numbox]

Okay.

I
I think the only thing this is now going to achieve is that persons new to videography are going to shy away
from buying the HV20. Yet, interestingly enough, they would of [probably] NEVER used the HV20 in a helicopter in the first place. :hv20-smilie51: :hv20-smilie49:

yep. i read the article, and even though it was a huge bummer at first, i started thinking to myself if i'm ever gonna be in a helicopter, and the answer is pretty much a resolute no, so this doesn't bother me. sure, it wobbles if you walk, but i can always record those scenes in plain dv. also, i hate that "from the hand" look, so i doubt I'll be using it after i buy a tripod.

so, in the end i'm left with a camera that outputs briliant picture in the type of scenes that i want to shoot, so what more could i ask for? :hv20-smilie31:

[moira]

Just to say thanks for the positive comments, I ordered the HV20 last week. I didn't ask when it might arrive though,theres so much to get I can feel a headache coming on.....battery charger,spare battery,tapes,head cleaning tape, minisd,bag,software AND a PC upgrade. What a journey !!

[bluegrass]

Just to say thanks for the positive comments, I ordered the HV20 last week. I didn't ask when it might arrive though,theres so much to get I can feel a headache coming on.....battery charger,spare battery,tapes,head cleaning tape, minisd,bag,software AND a PC upgrade. What a journey !!

Congrats. I know the feeling about the jouney. Don't let it bog your mind down. Start enjoying what you'll have. Make a list. Prioritze it. Worry about one thing at a time. You'll have all you need to start out with - camera, power adaptor, battery, book, cables to connect the camera to things.

Add an HDMI cable if you have an HDMI fitted HDTV otherwise you can use the cable that came with it. A mono or tripod. Don't let your list overwelm you. You'll get there.

[Norbert]

Everyone, have a look at this: http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?t=93855
Absolutely stunning if you ask me. What's interesting is that I can't see ANY wobble at all in that video. Apparently he ran around with the camera on a tripod. It looks so much more stable than anything I've seen from the HV20 so far.

[Emanuel]

Here's another interesting footage:

http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?t=93630

[Norbert]

That was pretty good for being all handheld. Not much walking shots though. I'm still most amazed by Solomon Chase's footage.
I kind of wish I still had my HV20 now so I could try to take if for a walk on a tripod, but the way it behaved I have little faith that it would be any better than on my stabilizer. I guess I'll never know. :P This camera is indeed intriguing.

Mal, or any other HV20 owner, could you by any chance try to walk around with your HV20 stabilized only by a tripod?

[Goose]

I have a Glidecam 2000 and HV20. I'm hoping to get the two together this weekend.

FWIW: I'm having (perhaps) similar "wobbly" problems with my HV20. I'm NOT willing to state it as fact but my short videos do seem VERY-VERY blurry/wobbly when the camera is moved. I will try to get some more samples to confirm this issue. So far.............. I'm a bit worried. :hv20-smilie49:

Regards
JohnG

John

I too have a glidecam 2000 but have struggled to balance the HV20 on it as its so light

Could you let me know if you do manage it?

thanks

[Emanuel]

That was pretty good for being all handheld. Not much walking shots though. I'm still most amazed by Solomon Chase's footage.
I kind of wish I still had my HV20 now so I could try to take if for a walk on a tripod, but the way it behaved I have little faith that it would be any better than on my stabilizer. I guess I'll never know. :P This camera is indeed intriguing.If I was in your place, I'd take a new HV20@my_hands_again. This camera worths its weight in gold.


Mal, or any other HV20 owner, could you by any chance try to walk around with your HV20 stabilized only by a tripod?Ron, though not (yet :hv20-smilie110: ) a HV20 owner, take a glance on this:

http://www.adorama.com/catlite.tpl?op=large_image&sku=SUVP2MB.JPG

http://www.adorama.com/SUVP2MB.html?searchinfo=sunpak%20versipod&item_no=2

http://photos.imageevent.com/24peter/upload2/large/IMG_3960.JPG

http://photos.imageevent.com/24peter/upload2/large/IMG_3969.JPG

http://photos.imageevent.com/24peter/upload2/large/IMG_3964.JPG

http://photos.imageevent.com/24peter/upload2/large/IMG_3943.JPG

Here's the thread:

http://dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?t=92847

[ib84]

I will get the HV20 tomorrow, after weeks or rather monts of intense researching and deciding (HDC-SD1 vs HV20).

now I will finally get a HD camcorder and 5 minutes later I learn about this f***ing rolling-shutter thing. This will probably disturb me a lot...

here (http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showpost.php?p=678071&postcount=25) they say the effect is 240% more pronounced in progressive than in interlaced. so the most important reason i choose the HV20 for (progressive) is getting quite pointless with this...

do i understand correctly that to work around rolling shutter, one has to choose faster shutter speed and prefer interlaced over progressive?

Another question:
i am a student. for me 950€ is quite a lot and I don´t want to accept this bad design:
do you think this is considered as an "warranty case" and i can get my money back, it being an inherent "defect", even after the 2 first weeks?
I am sitting in europe/germany.

[Mal]

Up until reading this thread I was simply unaware of how many people seem to want to run around with their camcorder whilst holding it in their hands.
:hv20-smilie117:

ib84, es ist wirklich kein grosses Problem; auf alle Fälle kein Defekt. Ja, es is richtig dass ein "rolling shutter" Effekt vorhanden ist, aber es ist kaum so schlimm wie es auf diesen Seiten beschrieben wird.

CMOS: Gekommen um zu beleiben, und es geht nicht mehr weg!
:hv20-smilie77:
Viel Spass mit Deinem HV20!

[ib84]

danke Mal für deine Ermutigung :-)

is a plugin for virtualDub that can compensate for the rolling shutter effect caused by the camera movement ("ERS" also exists for moving objects).

still remains one question: in case I can´t live with this, will Canon accept this as a warranty-case and will they give me my money back?

[Mal]

danke Mal für deine Ermutigung :-)

You bet! :hv20-smilie77:


still remains one question: in case I can´t live with this, will Canon accept this as a warranty-case and will they give me my money back?


Absolutely, unequivocally, 100% NOT, no. And nor should they.

It's NOT a defect of any workmanship. It's just an inherent symptom of the technology used; just like the red jaggy edges are inherent in DV.

[Emanuel]

1st Act


[SIZE="5"]
ib84, es ist wirklich kein grosses Problem; auf alle Fälle kein Defekt. Ja, es is richtig dass ein "rolling shutter" Effekt vorhanden ist, aber es ist kaum so schlimm wie es auf diesen Seiten beschrieben wird.

CMOS: Gekommen um zu beleiben, und es geht nicht mehr weg!
:hv20-smilie77:
Viel Spass mit Deinem HV20!«ib84, it is really no large problem; in any case no defect. Yes, it is correctly that “rolling more shutter” an effect present is, but it is hardly as badly as it on these sides is described. CMOS: To beleiben come over, and it does not leave! Much fun with your HV20!»


danke Mal für deine Ermutigung :-)«thanks Mal» (this one was a personal introduction... :hv20-smilie72: « (...) for your encouragement: -) »

Is this Google's translation tool fairly correct? :hv20-smilie81: 'cause I like understand all my environment... :hv20-smilie51: not only the rolling shutter as future HV20 user... :hv20-smilie64: :hv20-smilie71:




2nd Act


still remains one question: in case I can´t live with this, will Canon accept this as a warranty-case and will they give me my money back?It depends on your return policy with the retailer not the manufacturer, I think.




3rd Act


is a plugin for virtualDub that can compensate for the rolling shutter effect caused by the camera movement ("ERS" also exists for moving objects).Good tip. Obrigado! :hv20-smilie70: (this is for you!) :hv20-smilie70: (and this one is for Mal... BTW, the Google's translator indicated as "Mark"?? or "Times"??? @my_native_language, as I already informed you Mal...is "Evil" :hv20-smilie31:)




Epilogue

Como podes ver "Marca"/"Times", esta discussão aberta e não censurada, tem sido muito útil e trazido outros para aqui, que acreditam que podem confiar na câmara e neste fórum.

As you can see "Mal", this open and uncensored discussion has been quite useful and brought many others for here who believe they can have confidence on this acquisition device and on this forum, as well.

You can believe yours is quite difficult to translate than my own... :hv20-smilie01:

[Mal]

1st Act........CMOS: To beleiben come over, and it does not leave!»

LOL, Emanuel!
That above was a slight word-play on a German song from back in 2005 and your translation would of worked better if I hadn't misspelt "bleiben"! :)

It translates (as I intended it) to:
CMOS: It came to stay, and it's not leaving.


2nd Act........It depends on your return policy with the retailer not the manufacturer, I think.

VERY good point!!!



3rd Act.........BTW, the Google's translator indicated as «Mark»?? @my_native_language, as I already informed you Mal...is «Evil» :hv20-smilie31:

Aye, "mal" is almost universally EVIL or BAD! :hv20-smilie68: :hv20-smilie30: :hv20-smilie54:

:)

[Emanuel]

danke Mal für deine Ermutigung :-)

[/URL] is a plugin for virtualDub that can compensate for the rolling shutter effect caused by the camera movement ("ERS" also exists for moving objects).[url]http://www.guthspot.se/video/deshaker.htm#rolling%20shutter%20setting (http://www.guthspot.se/video/deshaker.htm#rolling%20shutter%20setting)

The link has been hidden from your quote (now fixed).

[Rawfa]

What I find weird about all of this is that I've seen many examples of shots done in the same circumstances that do not display the wobble distortion at all. I really don't know what to make of it. Until this wobble thing showed up I was like "wow! look at what this little camera can do! I've got to get me one of these!". Now I'm afraid I might end up with rubber band footage.

[Worley]

"wow! look at what this little camera can do! I've got to get me one of these!". Now I'm afraid I might end up with rubber band footage.

That's exactly how I feel. "Rubber band footage" describes it perfectly - did you see the helicopter footage?

It's way cheaper to buy on-line, but I do not want to end up with a camera that gives me an elastic picture... with two young boys, I need to swing the camera this way and that to capture them at play. Precious moments I can't afford to lose...

Maybe there are certain batches of cameras that are faulty? Can those affected the wobbles check manufactured dates? Just a thought.

Worley

[Mal]

...with two young boys, I need to swing the camera this way and that to capture them at play.

The logical solution to that particular scenario is CUT out the actual "swing" in your NLE, and to show one boy, then the other!
Although that would be the modus operandi with any cam, wobble or not!

Regards,
The Problem Solver
:hv20-smilie03:

[The Wobble Solver]

Okay, I have now registered as a new member with the sole purpose of SOLVING ALL WOBBLE issues.

My next task is to rent a helicopter and show how the HV20 can take awesome footage from a helicopter...

:)

The Wobble Solver....

[Worley]

The logical solution to that particular scenario is CUT out the actual "swing" in your NLE, and to show one boy, then the other!
Although that would be the modus operandi with any cam, wobble or not!
:hv20-smilie03:

In 90% of cases, I would do this. Whenever possible I try to avoid any zooming or 'swinging' in my final edits, but sometimes it IS necessary. Like when there's a trip and a fall - those are moments that have to be shown (what a wicked father I am :hv20-smilie31: ).

Yes, ideally the excessive motion would be cut, I agree.

Worley

[Mal]

...those are moments that have to be shown ...


That's true!



(what a wicked father I am :hv20-smilie31: )

:hv20-smilie81:

[Rawfa]

Oh my god! I just watched the helicopter footage! It's as if the shot was taken through a tub of jello.

[Norbert]

The helicopter footage confirmed what I had experienced with my own HV20 and Solomon Chase's footage just rendered me confused since it didn't show any wobble what so ever. Could it be a few batches of faulty units like Worley says? If there is a possibility to get an HV20 without the wobble I just feel that I have to explore that possibility as far as I can.
Let's say that some batches are faulty. Then how do you know that you are buying a unit that is not faulty? You could try one at the store I guess but how do you test it for wobbles in the store? The wobbles doesn't show that well on the lcd display. You'd have to hook it up to a tv.

[Mal]

Norbert,
I think there's sufficient information out there now - even in this thread - to debunk the notion that this is a PAL vs. NTSC issue, or that one HV20 is behaving differently than another.

It's a simple matter of how the CMOS handles certain types of footage, and how much the intensity of the wobble manifests itself visually in the resulting footage.

[John Godden]

OK, I did some more tests with my HV20.

When the camera is held "very steady" the captured image quality is fabulous. As soon as I start a very slow pan the image blurs. The bluring effect is proportional to the pan speed. Even at VERY modest pan speeds there is noticeable blur. This "test" was of a high spatial frequency target (grass lawn......... which has a lot of fine features) so this issue may just be 'the way it is' with HDV. Camera was set to HDV capture at 60i, aperture priority (F1.8?? I think) , image stabilization ON, and wide angle FL.

I'm not sure what to make of this yet. ??? I'm REALLY hoping it's an operator issue but................................ :hv20-smilie15:

Eagerly awaiting a posted "solution/suggestion".

I'm going to try the same 'test' with the sharpness set to -1 and -2. Perhaps lowering the sharpness will help. ???

JohnG

[Mal]

OK, I did some more tests with my HV20.

Just a note on the OIS, Optical Image Stabilisation: that is meant as a fix for stationary shakeyness, as in holding it by hand focusing on a fixed opbject.
As soon as you pan or use the cam on a tripod, it is said to NOT use OIS.

Would be interesting to see if the OIS had an influence on your tests.

[Worley]

OIS - I have this switched on always on my MVX40, and it is incredible as steadying hand shake. When panning, there is no effect on the picture.

EIS - on my first DV camcorder, I used the electronic stabilisation. Worked great with hand shake, but when panning. Yuck! The picture would remain steady then jump, remain steady, jump, steady, jump... there was no intelligence there at all.

OIS is superior, but really only useful for stationary hand-held shooting, as Mal says.

I tried a test yesterday, fixing my camera to a tripod (Velbon D600), and carying the tripod by the neck. The fluidity of the resulting video was astounding - lovely smooth motion forwards, backwards, left, right, and up and down. i was surprised as I thought I was quite a steady shooter.

Maybe someone can test the HV20 as follows:

OIS ON, no tripod
OIS OFF, no tripod
OIS ON, with tripod
OIS OFF, with tripod

And using the same footage. This will help us determine in which situations the wobble is most pronounced.

We have to be scientific with this matter, not artistic!

Worley

[Norbert]

Worley, I don't suppose you could show us some footage of your walking test with the tripod?


Here's a rant so STOP reading now if you do not want my opinion. And Mal, feel free to delete this post if it burns anyone's eyes out. I just want to say this:

I agree we have to be scientific and I think I tried everything but a tripod for a stabilizer, but even if a tripod is the ultimate solution to the wobble problem it's not a good substitute for a non wobbling image. This camera is aimed at consumers, right? Don't you think the tripod solution is a little far fetched for the ordinary consumer who wants to shoot his/her kid's birthdays, holidays and stuff? After I tried the HV20 I could personally not trust the camera alone enough for that task. I wouldn't want my memories to wobble like a flashback.
So we all agree that this is something the consumer have to solve himself/herself instead of Canon? As a prosumer I would gladly use a tripod for a stabilizer to get rid of the wobble but as a consumer I would look at another camera. If the prosumer in me wasn't so in love with the image quality of this camera, then I wouldn't be here ranting in the first place.

[Worley]

My tripod experiment was done with a canon MVX40, so it may not be appropriate to post it unless used as a comparison to the HV20. I would like an '20, but this wobble issue does worry me.

I agree with everything you rant at, Norbert - the consumer shouldn't have such worries. I want to use the camera for both home movies and amateur film making. I'm sure it would be a great camera for the latter, when I would be using a tripod and not swinging all over the place. But for home movies... this is where I begin to waver.

Worley

[Norbert]

Indeed. I know that this is probably the nature of CMOS + rolling shutter + HDV, but then I wonder what Canon are paying their engineers to do. Everything is not written in stone. I am fairly confident that Canon's engineers could come up with a solution if they were told it's considered a problem. Engineers solve problems. It's what they do for a living.
If the consumers are not willing to push Canon into making something better, then we will always have to live with the wobble.

[Melachrino]

We have to be scientific with this matter, not artistic!

Worley

Ah! A breath of fresh air at last...

To find suitable workarounds or solutions one must know the root causes and conditions of the problem or experiment a lot.

Much has been said about Merlin, tripods, stabilizers, even feigning death to go around the wobblies. But consider the root cause of the wobblies.

The root cause in the HV20 camera appears to be not the OIS, which works fabulous in most experiments, nor the CMOS whose specs are faster than CCD's, but the circuitry just behind the CMOS sensors used by Canon in shuttering, reading and passing the image info to the processors and coders.

And, the absolute condition which evidences the generic wobbly is the relative motion of the IMAGE with respect to the physical sensors. Two main contributors to this relative IMAGE vs SENSOR motion are in effect: the shakiness, panning, zooming or other motion of the camera itself AND the live movements of the subject matter.

We can address and minimize the effects of the former, but the latter are a reality and necessity of video and movies, especially kids and sports. So, are we to shoot videos of only stills and passive nature because the shuttering is inadequate and distorts moving images ? I hardly think so.

But, knowing the above we can make sure we use the fastest possible shutter and the fastest possible field rate consistent with the lighting conditions. But, there is a limit dictated by Canon's row sequential shuttering method and at that point each user must make his or her own decision whether the pertinent artifact is tolerable relative to the results wanted, and which a Merlin, tripod, sand bag or paralysis won't fix.

Since fast, global (field or frame sequential) shuttering is known and doable with CMOS, I would expect Canon engineers to take note and already be busy with an improvement for the HVXX...

It is reported elsewhere that the Sony HC3 and HC7 family suffer from the same shuttering inadecuacy. The JVC HD7 uses CCD's and no one has reported wobblies on it...(but other problems exist). The Red One is said to use field/frame sequential shutter but it may be too rich for some.

My mother told me it would not be easy...

[djhSPAWN]

I just received my HV20 last night, but waited till today at work to mess around with it. I took about 10 minutes recording with an extremely wobbly picture. Everyone that watched it with me laughed that I needed to turn the img. stabalizer on. When I checked what mode I was in it turned out to be auto. I then noticed that my camera has a jiggle noise in it, like somthing is loose. I beleive it is the img. stabalizer, so back to Costco it goes for an exchange.

[Mal]

I just received my HV20 last night...

Congrats!


I then noticed that my camera has a jiggle noise in it, like somthing is loose.

If you are talking about a noise that happens when you rock the cam back and forth when the cam is off, then there's nothing wrong with your cam. This, and maybe 100'000'000 other camcorders do the exactly the same thing.
Once you turn the cam on, the "noise" goes off.

[neocastillo]

I then noticed that my camera has a jiggle noise in it, like somthing is loose.

This is perfectly nomal for camcorders. I forget exactly what is it but it has somehting to do with the way the lenses on them work. You camera is not broken at all.

[joseph soriano]

that loose noise is the optical stabilizer. this happens only when the camera is off. other cameras do this as well such as the dvx100 and hvx200.

[sp8ce07]

this thread scares me. i haven't received mine yet and I'm already reading of extensive wobbly images? uh oh!

[neocastillo]

this thread scares me. i haven't received mine yet and I'm already reading of extensive wobbly images? uh oh!

I was scared to then i just bit the bullet and bought it. I don't regret it.

[VX1MK1]

This is a definite drawback for me. I was going to use this camera to shoot action sport activites that would involve a good ammount of slow panning. For now I am holding off and looking at other cams.

[Emanuel]

I have no the HV20 yet just 'cause I've had a lot of work these days (I'm a moviemaker -- that's what I do for living) but this wobble issue is a minor problem, comparing with the lower HVX-3chip or other fake ones like artifacted non-progressive devices, etc.

Like Mal (:hv20-smilie58: I'd change the user name for "the" HV20 angel :hv20-smilie54: :hv20-smilie31: ) have already explained...


Norbert,
I think there's sufficient information out there now - even in this thread - to debunk the notion that this is a PAL vs. NTSC issue, or that one HV20 is behaving differently than another.

It's a simple matter of how the CMOS handles certain types of footage, and how much the intensity of the wobble manifests itself visually in the resulting footage.

...there's some suitable solutions like steady shooting + low shutter speed where the motion blur is a necessary "mal" -- HV20 style? Yup! Why not?

It doesn't bother me at all 'cause there won't be used in any way other than as a few times when strictly necessary.


Here are two finest 25p ex/samples:



[ 1st example's source (http://dvinfo.net/conf/showpost.php?p=669024&postcount=21) ]

http://www.megaupload.com/?d=L2G1OPED (43 MB)



[ 2nd example's source (http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?t=92882) ]

http://www.cuttle.de/pgod/hv20/black.zip (167 MB)

[Emanuel]

This is a definite drawback for me. I was going to use this camera to shoot action sport activites that would involve a good ammount of slow panning. For now I am holding off and looking at other cams.This camera doesn't just work into the "p" realm where some care is required but also from an interlaced source -- take a look on this:

LINK 1 (http://hv20.com/showthread.php?t=147)

LINK 2 (http://dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?t=93630&highlight=sample)

[Worley]

Wow, that Black movie was really nice. The low light performance is incredible, Not a hint of grain.

So very tempted by this camera. The price is falling on Amazon/Pixmania, so it's only a matter of time.

Worley

[neocastillo]

Wow, that Black movie was really nice. The low light performance is incredible, Not a hint of grain.


That Balck move was nice but I'm not shure what you watched it on but there was quite a bit of grain from the gain. Still make for a very nice movie and the grain is far less than what I remember my XL1s having.

[Worley]

I watch on an LCD computer monitor. But I spotted no grain; mind you, I am used to the next-to-useless JVC GDR-23 (my first ever digital camcorder) and the Canon MVX40, my present cam., which is much better.

I long for good low light performance. I was saving for a Sony VX2100 which is a bargain at the moment. But this HV20 has me seriously interested. Great performance and a great price... So confusing.

Worley

[neocastillo]

Oh I agree that the HV20 has awesome low light performance, one of the reason I bought it.

[rhodesy]

Just got my HV20 a few days ago and i was very impressed with the quality to start with - but then when I was doing some moving outdoor shoots @25p I encountered the dredded roller shutter - making me feel sea sick on playback! I hadn't seen this forum or heard anything about this in the rave reviews that this camera seems to be getting - makes you wonder how much they test these things as it is really quite apparent!

I would also have put it down to hand shakes if I hadn't been using my poor mans steady cam which I have also got recently and used it on my old JVC DV cam and got some impressive results - so quite dissapointed with the HV20performance.

However I did some small tests last night - just indoor using my steady cam and HDV 1080i mode and got some super smooth results - im sure with a bit of practice they wouldn't be too far off the merlin example sombody linked to earlier. I have also noticed that the interlacing on the HV20 is much finer than my old JVC to a point where i really don't find myself longing for good 25p performance (although it would be nice!). These were just some small tests but I will do some better outdoor ones tonight hopefully with some people in.

One of my main reasons for getting this camera was for using it with matchmoving software for CG compostioning - hence the 25p requirement as its easier to track progressive frames. But I know you can deinterlace footage in After Effects - does this effect the quality of the output? I have to confess I am very new to all this and the 3:2 pull down and the way its stored on the tape jargon is quite confusing!

Cheers

[Ian-T]

... I have to confess I am very new to all this and the 3:2 pull down and the way its stored on the tape jargon is quite confusing!

CheersIf you have a PAL cam then you should not have to worry about the pulldown issue.

[nlambert]

Just got my HV20 a few days ago and i was very impressed with the quality to start with - but then when I was doing some moving outdoor shoots @25p I encountered the dredded roller shutter - making me feel sea sick on playback!

Any updates on this?, it's what's stopping me getting one, or any CMOS based
system....

[PWHerman]

This is a very rare occurence...if it wasn't, would you not see EVERYBODY posting about their complaints? Simply return the camera if this happens to you.

All I know is that me and a few million other people have an HV20 and don't witness anything even remotely close as to what is being described here. They're basically isolated, bad incidents that one in every few thousand people get. That is still kind of unacceptable, but it's probably something with the build quality of the exact ones they're getting. Again, don't let something like this detract you from getting an HV20. I was a bit hesitant at first, but I got one and don't regret it one bit.

[Numbox]

All I know is that me and a few million other people have an HV20 and don't witness anything even remotely close as to what is being described here. They're basically isolated, bad incidents that one in every few thousand people get. That is still kind of unacceptable, but it's probably something with the build quality of the exact ones they're getting. Again, don't let something like this detract you from getting an HV20. I was a bit hesitant at first, but I got one and don't regret it one bit.


What the..... Since when is that? For a while there was a general concensus that wobbling happens with every cam, and now this. What is going on?

[Worley]

What the..... Since when is that? For a while there was a general concensus that wobbling happens with every cam, and now this. What is going on?

Some people are definitely getting it worse than others, it seems. But unless we know the camera settings for each episode, we don't know how bad the problem is.

In the short amount of footage I took (test footage, jumping and zooming around) I could barely notice the rolling shutter at all. In fact, at normal speed, I couldn't see it at all. I had to slow the video to 30% before I could notice it, but even then, if I hadn't been looking I wouldn't have paid any attention to it.

In others' footage, the wobble sometimes just leaps out an hits me. It's like I've had a dizzy turn (increasingly a reality to my ageing brain :hv20-smilie01:).

I would think that certain settings definitely make a difference. Higher shutter speeds. I saw some spinning fan footage the other day shot on an FX7 (I think, maybe FX1) and at higher shutter speeds - over 1/500 the effect was really very weird. But at lower speeds - under 1/250 - it was fine. (Can't find the link, sorry.)

[PWHerman]

What the..... Since when is that? For a while there was a general concensus that wobbling happens with every cam, and now this. What is going on?

With EVERY cam? I'm not so sure about that...depends on your definition of wobbling I guess.

To sum it up: all I was saying was that I witnessed NONE of the aforementioned "rolling shutter" effects witnessed and posted by some people. That definitely does NOT happen to everyone's footage...there's something wrong there. I get perfect footage and have not seen this or anything remotely like that yet (OIS off/on, moving/jumping around, etc.)Worley added to this claim a little...thanks Worley.

[Numbox]

Should i than send my cam back and ask for a new one? Cam was bought about 1,5-2 months ago, can i even get it exchanged?

[mik]

there is no such thing as "NONE" WHerman. if you've never moved the camera then perhaps yes. check your footage again or post it here with "moving/jumping around". if you don't have any shutter effect at all canon would pay you a fortune to get the camera back and see why it's different :)

it's a cmos fault that all cmos cameras have, but more or less, depending on manufacturer. it's just a thing you should know before you buy so you could compare with other cmos camcorders eventually and make an informed choice. unfortunately no reviewers mention or test the extent of the effect so many were surprised. an honest review would give a note or evaluate this or post a sample, as all cmos have it, and the customer would balance it in the whole picture. why do you think sony is advertising today their cmos to have less wobble? we'll never know what "less" means, or compared to what is less, but i bet they've got a lot of complaints when they first made a cmos camcorder otherwise they wouldn't say it.

it gets worse with higher speeds, over 100. some said it's worse for PAL than for NTSC (i can't test that). it's worse with the OIS on if you shake it or walk fast with it. that's all i've learned so far. but i knew all this before i got the hv20 and i've compared it with other camcorders. some didn't and i don't blame them for getting angry nobody told them about this cmos effect.

[Numbox]

it's a cmos fault that all cmos cameras have, but more or less, depending on manufacturer. it's just a thing you should know before you buy so you could compare with other cmos camcorders eventually and make an informed choice. unfortunately no reviewers mention or test the extent of the effect so many were surprised. an honest review would give a note or evaluate this, as all cmos have it, and the customer would balance it in the whole picture.
that's what i was talking about :hv20-smilie70:

[Murrelet]

I have just gone through this thread thinking I had the wobblies, or a version at least, from the filming I've done with the HV20 as a helmet cam. During post production I get checkerboarding as my risers (4 black webbing straps that group and hold the lines from my harness up to the paraglider) pass by the cam. I get artifacts out on the water as the waves come in below, and with an added bonus of them pulsing to sound, be it music or the wind noise. I also get jerky footage. This all played on my 4:3 tv, and the dvd drive in my computer.

I just went back to playing the raw footage (1080-60i) from the cam straight to my HDMI monitor. The results are to my mind quite stunning, straight from tape. None of the above occurs, other than one small "burp", not sure what that was. The helmet cam works much better than I ever dreamed possible, but the footage is too back and forth jerky, that being my fault. I'll have to learn better head movement management.

I have the cam on auto, as wide as the normal lens will go (really, really need a WA) with OIS. My movements are quick and sharp, darting around the landscape, seascape, and sky. This cam follows it all with very quick refocus, with no obvious hint of wobblies (I'm sure if I stopped the cam and looked at a single pic it would be there, oh, I'm NTSC), just the noticeable exposure problem of suddenly going from sky, to forest, to water.

This type of filming really puts this cam to the test, and it passes with, pardon the pun, flying colours. If I can figure out what I'm doing wrong at the production end it will be more than just fine for me.

[Worley]

The effect you are seeing sounds very much like compression to me. Areas of fast motion often suffer the blockiness you describe. Other than increasing the bit rate, there is little you can do.

That said, during the encoding (I presume you are encoding for DVD), instead of one-pass encoding, try two-pass. This takes a lot longer, but results in better quality video. I can't tell you how to do this as I don't know what software you're using.

Believe me, you'll know the wobbles when you see them!

[PWHerman]

You people are missing the point with what I was trying to say in my first post. I wasn't getting that deep into this matter...I know it's there. I guess I complicated it more than I should have. What I was getting at was basically that it doesn't affect me at all, and it obviously affects some people WAY more than others (OP, some others in here). My main point I was trying to get across: don't let this and only this detract you from buying this camera. I notice that a lot of people are, and that's unfortunate; it's good that it is being mentioned, because it has to be, but sometimes it's being blown way out of proportion.

[Ian-T]

You people are missing the point with what I was trying to say in my first post. I wasn't getting that deep into this matter...I know it's there. I guess I complicated it more than I should have. What I was getting at was basically that it doesn't affect me at all, and it obviously affects some people WAY more than others (OP, some others in here). My main point I was trying to get across: don't let this and only this detract you from buying this camera. I notice that a lot of people are, and that's unfortunate; it's good that it is being mentioned, because it has to be, but sometimes it's being blown way out of proportion.
Seems like you are echoing he same things I've said here and in other forums. What bothers me the most is the strong negative opinions some folks have (especially those who have a major influence in these forums). These same individuals are very knowledgeable with film/video-making. Their opinions are so overwhelming to potential buyers that it ditracts them from even testing an HV20 out. I see most potential buyers responses as being fearful and worrysome to the point where they all ask the same questions over and over. Everyone is entitled to their opinions and personally I welcome it but what I perceive is that most of these "haters" are semi-pro's to professionals who expect a cam to act in a certain way. If it behaves somewhere outside their "normal" point of view then it is a waste of time....terrible peice of equipment...useless...etc. What happens after that is those opinions reverberates right back to people like you and me...hen all of a sudden...we are looking for flaws in the camera and in everything we shoot. There is too much emphasis being placed on what is an obvious problem. Honestly...I did not even noice this problem until the detractors turned this into "The Issue Of The Year." Now all we look for in other peoples video is this flaw without fully enjoying the individuals composition.

Every camera has its weakness....like MAL said in another post.."WORK WITH THE WOBBLE," Actually...there is no wobble in routine situations...like I said earlier...you have to be in some pretty extraordinary situations to get the bad fotage I've seen floating around the Web. Even multi-million dollar FILM camera's have rolling shutter issues. Know Thy Camera's limits (get to know your machine) and work AROUND the issue. I have no real complaints about this cam.

Oh...and my theory on the Sony's claim about not having these issues "as bad" .... That is because this is the only camera in this price range that has 24P...a feature that I believe exagerates the rolling shutter artifacts....put 24p in the Sony cam's and they will show up just the same.

[Ian-T]

bumpity bmp...bump!!!!

[Murrelet]

Hi Worley,
I'm using Vegas 7e and dvd architect. And I was so disappointed after all the work, that I scoured the site for this thread, as I had sort of followed it what seems like months ago now. The issue never deterred me from my purchase, didn't even know about it at the time, and later checked my footage, but could never see it.

I see this as the stepping stone to better innovations to come. I don't want to be waiting for those to appear, THEN have to learn. I want to grow with HDV consumer cams. The only worry I have is that Canon will pull a Panasonic and dumb this gem down in a future release. Wonder if Pany is getting the message?

Back to topic. In Post, what I get are horizontal, linear "beads", all stacked on top of one another in the case of, say, my lines, as the cam passes by. The forest canopy glints are much the same, with this problem in the waves as well. All in post production, so that's the problem, not the camera, and I'll just work away until I find the solution, or rather the best solution for my situation. I just have to take a break from it all, go fly without the cam, and just enjoy myself, ponder the problem, then get back at it. It always works for me.

[PWHerman]

Seems like you are echoing he same things I've said here and in other forums. What bothers me the most is the strong negative opinions some folks have (especially those who have a major influence in these forums). These same individuals are very knowledgeable with film/video-making. Their opinions are so overwhelming to potential buyers that it ditracts them from even testing an HV20 out. I see most potential buyers responses as being fearful and worrysome to the point where they all ask the same questions over and over. Everyone is entitled to their opinions and personally I welcome it but what I perceive is that most of these "haters" are semi-pro's to professionals who expect a cam to act in a certain way. If it behaves somewhere outside their "normal" point of view then it is a waste of time....terrible peice of equipment...useless...etc. What happens after that is those opinions reverberates right back to people like you and me...hen all of a sudden...we are looking for flaws in the camera and in everything we shoot. There is too much emphasis being placed on what is an obvious problem. Honestly...I did not even noice this problem until the detractors turned this into "The Issue Of The Year." Now all we look for in other peoples video is this flaw without fully enjoying the individuals composition.

Every camera has its weakness....like MAL said in another post.."WORK WITH THE WOBBLE," Actually...there is no wobble in routine situations...like I said earlier...you have to be in some pretty extraordinary situations to get the bad fotage I've seen floating around the Web. Even multi-million dollar FILM camera's have rolling shutter issues. Know Thy Camera's limits (get to know your machine) and work AROUND the issue. I have no real complaints about this cam.

Oh...and my theory on the Sony's claim about not having these issues "as bad" .... That is because this is the only camera in this price range that has 24P...a feature that I believe exagerates the rolling shutter artifacts....put 24p in the Sony cam's and they will show up just the same.

Very well put, Ian. :hv20-smilie77: :hv20-smilie77: :hv20-smilie77:

[Worley]

Wobble: download and view all the videos uploaded to this site (if you FTP in you can see them all at once). In everyday situations, you'll be hard pushed to see it. When you know it's there, then you WILL see it, because you expect to. I trained as a broadcast engineer (in the days of analogue) and my viewing has been blighted ever since because I can see flaws in equipment/broadcasts.

The New York footage, the campfire and swimming scenes, racing cars... can't see the wobbles at all, although all these have fast motion where you would expect to see it.

Yes, the wobble is there to varying degrees, but most of the time it isn't visible. Don't let it deter you from buying the camera. Even the pro-sumer CMOS models have the wobble.

"horizontal, linear "beads", all stacked on top of one another": it's difficult to picture what you are describing, but if it's not the effect of compression (you're going from 25Mbps HDV on tape to roughly 8Mbps on 4:3 SD DVD), then it could be interlacing artefacts. Make sure the field order is correct in Vegas. It should, I believe, be Upper Field First (UFF). You could try setting it to progressive, if UFF doesn't work. Without seeing a screenshot, it's impossible to be certain. Any chance of a screenshot?

[mik]

this all trouble came from the reviewers alone. those people i never trust. i better search forum and see some samples, hear what people say. and i suggest hv20 potential buyers do the same. come here and get the stuff.

worley: the racing cars footage i agree, i can't find any problems there. that one and the egypt vacation look just like discovery channel to me.

anyway for people concerned: film something with lots of vertical lines (doors, fences, trees... anything) and pan left/right a few times. use different shutter speeds. at the point the lines don't stay vertical anymore and become diagonal or curved during the pan that's the shutter speed to avoid when using it handheld. then increase the pan speed until the same happens and that's the maximum hand speed to use. test using any cmos camera, not only canon. i don't want people to think other's cmos doesn't wobble.

"These same individuals are very knowledgeable with film/video-making" - that's not bad at all. it means with hv20 canon broke to the other side towards pro. if they keep this line canon would force all manufacturers to get a bit more pro features for low cost cameras. we all win.

[Murrelet]

Thanks Worley,

I'll move my problem over to the correct category. It's definitely in the production end, not the cam, just came here to see if there was a physical reason, get that out of the way or the limitation noted, then move on.



Weather for flying has been dismal all winter/spring, now it has every day potential, so have to grab what I can. I'll post to PC Editing when I have a chance.

"horizontal, linear "beads", all stacked on top of one another" like pennies stacked on top of one another, if that helps, I'll try and get a screen shot. It's like one of the interlaces is a few pixels over, Lego style...lol

[Ian-T]

..- that's not bad at all. it means with hv20 canon broke to the other side towards pro. if they keep this line canon would force all manufacturers to get a bit more pro features for low cost cameras. we all win.Now there's a statement that I totally agree with. I don't know if Canon realized what they started but for us end users it will only get better and better.:hv20-smilie03:

[rur]

I have shaky images on my HV20 when I zoom in maximum. Other than that it is great when not zoomed in all the way. I wonder if anybody else is having the same issue when zoom is engaged all the way out??

[neocastillo]

I have shaky images on my HV20 when I zoom in maximum. Other than that it is great when not zoomed in all the way. I wonder if anybody else is having the same issue when zoom is engaged all the way out??

This kind of shakiness has nothing to do with this wobbly image. It has to do with you shaky hand. Try zooming in while using a tripod and I'll bet your image improves drastically.

[Worley]

And try with optical stabilization switched off. the effects of stabilization may result in sudden jerkiness.

[rur]

Actually, to tell you the truth with optical stabilization on and zoomed in all the way, shaking is almost non existent. Should it be??

rur

[Worley]

The consensus is that when using a tripod, turn OIS off.

[Numbox]

Wow, turns out that when i carry camera on a tripod and walk the wobbling is gone. Yaaaaaaaaaay :hv20-smilie81::hv20-smilie31::hv20-smilie09::hv20-smilie77:

[tilllt]

http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rolling-Shutter-Effekt

its in german but the diagrams speak for themselves i guess

[Numbox]

No they don't :hv20-smilie81:


Please explain :hv20-smilie31:

[Galleddrim]

Okay, sorry to revive this thread, but just one question:

IS or IS NOT the rolling shutter effect more pronounced in the PAL model than in the NTSC model? I'm not asking if the NTSC has it--I understand that all CMOS based cameras have this issue to some extent--but just wondering if it is less noticeable than in PAL.

There seems to be a lot of conflicting information regarding this. Someone suggested that the worst wobbling footage has all been shot in PAL. Is this true? I know a lot of the wobbly car footage was European, so I assume PAL. Was the now-infamous Helicopter Jello-cam a PAL (not that I will be shooting from a helicopter)?

Maybe if someone has done (or could do) a hands-on test between an NTSC and PAL camera that could settle it once and for all. Does anyone here have both models?

[Worley]

I have a pal one, and I can barely notice the wobble, even when I shake the camera like crazy (it is there, but very hard to see - I had to slow the footage to see it).

I think it is more pronounced if you use a high shutter speed, regardless of whether it's PAL or NTSC.

[directore]

Well at least at 1/500, 24p, no OIS what this camcorder does is totally radiculous. See this (re-linked) footage: http://www.megaupload.com/?d=IEO1G52V

Camera mounted on the side window, just closing the driver side door. I'm sorry Canon but no camcorder should ever generate anything that radicoulous.

[Galleddrim]

Well at least at 1/500, 24p, no OIS what this camcorder does is totally radiculous. See this (re-linked) footage: http://www.megaupload.com/?d=IEO1G52V

Camera mounted on the side window, just closing the driver side door. I'm sorry Canon but no camcorder should ever generate anything that radicoulous.

Yeah, okay. Gimme a break. We already know what the wobble looks like. There is no point in rubbing it in. The fact is that there are people getting perfectly usable footage from their HV20s, with and without fast motion. So there are ways to work around the flaw, just like with any other flawed medium.

We should be helping each other develop the best shooting techniques and avoid the problematic ones, not continually bashing Canon for delivering a state of the art, perfectly usable (though imperfect) consumer level camera.

I only posted because I wanted to know if there was a difference between PAL and NTSC.

Oh, and also, 1/500 @ 24p is a ridiculous setting to begin with. The standard feature film is shot with 1/48 @ 24fps.

[Worley]

@Directore, why, given the scene you wanted to shoot, are you using a shutter speed of 1/500? That is quite fast for such static footage.

I would counter your strike against Canon with: "Use settings appropriate to the scene". Don't complain that the image isn't as you desire if you set the camera inappropriately.

Shoot again at 50 or 60 fps and see how much the wobble reduces.

[Erik Bien]

Mods:

May I humbly suggest that the only reason one would intentionally shoot an HV20 hard-mounted to a short-wheelbase 4x4 at 24p-1/500th is to deliberately show the camera at its absolute worst.

It's either a perfect storm of ineptitude, or someone with an axe to grind.

:hv20-smilie29:

[angelo913]

Well at least at 1/500, 24p, no OIS what this camcorder does is totally radiculous. See this (re-linked) footage: http://www.megaupload.com/?d=IEO1G52V

Camera mounted on the side window, just closing the driver side door. I'm sorry Canon but no camcorder should ever generate anything that radicoulous.

For $1000.00 camcorder it produces superb image quality, IF you are willing to do things differently. I spend 3 grand on my Panasonic DVC30 2-years ago and this little $1000.00 cam produces much better image quality, I do give the DVC30 credit for better low light performance, but it cost over 2 times more.

The HV20 works best with low to none shaking, therefore use a better shock mount to smooth out the shaking and also using reduced shutter speeds by using ND filters or a Polarizer filter.

The complaining I hear about the wobbling is a none-issue if the "work-arounds" are used. If are unable to implement the "work-arounds" and are unable to listen/read/understand from people trying to help you, then return the HV20.

This site is for those people looking for help and support to get the BEST out of the HV20. I'm not denying the "wobble" effect but there are methods to stop it.

...Angelo

[Galleddrim]

For $1000.00 camcorder it produces superb image quality, IF you are willing to do things differently.

What about 24p @ 1/500 shutter speed? That's different. :hv20-smilie87:

[mik]

if you go over ~1/100 you can't move the camera at all or it'll wobble.
at 1/50 you can't shake it handheld style but you can move around or pan if you do it slowly.

if you record 50/60 you can extend the range but not that much. walking fast handheld at 1/50 will make some wobble. the ois will make things worse always.

[angelo913]

What about 24p @ 1/500 shutter speed? That's different. :hv20-smilie87:

With these specs and having the OIS off and the HV20 on a Tripod it isn't a problem. :hv20-smilie77:

All cams have Pros and Cons not all cams are perfect for a given price point. Learning the ins and outs of the HV20 or the "do"s and "don't"s for a given shot and it will yield you the best image quality.

...Angelo

[mik]

With these specs and having the OIS off and the HV20 on a Tripod it isn't a problem.

on a tripod fixed or panning? i doubt you'll be able to pan unless very slow

[angelo913]

Walking fast isn't a problem with a proper steady-cam device. I have 65" sceen and any heavy cam movment/shaking will make you sea-sick with that kind of footage anyways.

It's like I'm talking to a nursery school of children; are you people nuts. :hv20-smilie51:

...Angelo

[mik]

It's like I'm talking to a nursery school of children; are you people nuts.

why bother answer then if we're all that stupid? don't let us drag you down to our level.

[Galleddrim]

if you go over ~1/100 you can't move the camera at all or it'll wobble.
at 1/50 you can't shake it handheld style but you can move around or pan if you do it slowly.

if you record 50/60 you can extend the range but not that much. walking fast handheld at 1/50 will make some wobble. the ois will make things worse always.

See, that's the thing I don't understand. I see plenty of 24p footage that looks to have been shot at reasonable speeds with no visible wobble, even with walking and fast pans. I don't doubt your experience, I am just wondering what the variables are.

[angelo913]

on a tripod fixed or panning? i doubt you'll be able to pan unless very slow

I can tell you that I haven't seen these problems even hand-held and slow pans. I normally record in 60i. I only use 24P for better low light performance and haven't seen it.

There must be people with very shaky hands out there.

...Angelo

[mik]

See, that's the thing I don't understand. I see plenty of 24p footage that looks to have been shot at reasonable speeds with no visible wobble, even with walking and fast pans. I don't doubt your experience, I am just wondering what the variables are.

i don't have extensive experience but i would like to comment. if you can post some of the links so we could talk exactly on footage and find more details. for example there is a footage here with racing cars, that is rather fast panning and movement and no wobble at all.

[angelo913]

why bother answer then if we're all that stupid? don't let us drag you down to our level.

Sorry for my comments but there are ways to correct these issues.

...Angelo

[mik]

ok. no one wants shaking but to find the limits so as to avoid/minimize the rolling shutter.

[directore]

I know there is no solution to the problem, I'm just frustrated a bit, no hidden agenda.

I'll be doing same spectacular scenic driving in the NW soon and thought rolling footage of the type I used to take with my old DV camcorder would be nice to have. No way, obviously.

---

Some clarifications: At 1/100 motion induced blur was unacceptable. 1/500 was chosen to provide some safety margin and it produced footage that was perfectly sharp (<10mph).

OIS stabilization was tried, when on the "swimming distortion" was much worse. I did some minimal testing with 60i and did not see any significant improvement. MF or AF obviously did not make any difference.

I guess I could try 1/250 or maybe 1/2000 (who knows?), but I already gave up on on the idea, tripod work it will be from now on.

[Ian-T]

You know...I don't know what the problem is with some people. I have had this cam now for over 3 months and I get great footage. I pan on every shot and get great footage...even when mounted in my CAR!! Like someone mentioned...every cam has its limits..some greater than others but nevertheles all unique. As soon as I found out about its limits...I worked around it....what's the problem. Instead of griping about it here...move on to another cam...there is nothing that has not already been mentioned here. it's ok to speak your frustrations...but it's not wise to continue to beat on a dead horse. Let's move on and help each other out.

All I do is shoot and Pan..pan...pan....I have no problems. I even accidently panned to fast in some footage..no slanting or wobbling in some of those....but I would never use that footage anyways. The point is...wobble or not...learn how to shoot properly.

Ths cam is unique in that you have to keep it away from low frequency vibrations. Here is where you will find that swimming. That means...don't sit on a spinning dryer...try not to lean it againts certain structures in your running vehicle (buffer it somehow)...no helicopter rides without a gyro...no telephoto handheld footage ( you're not that steady) etc.


Edit: Heck....and I need a front end alignment badly.....but still get great footage. That has got to say something.
http://fortvir.net/gallery2/P3U_videos/Ian-T/US+1.wmv.html

[directore]

man talk about lots of empty verbiage, from my post above one could learn under what conditions I see what I see and what I did to find a solution, facts in fact, from yours I really don't know what, not to sit on a spinning dryer? Man!

[Ian-T]

man talk about lots of empty verbiage, from my post above one could learn under what conditions I see what I see and what I did to find a solution, facts in fact, from yours I really don't know what, not to sit on a spinning dryer? Man!With all due rspect I got to ask you....why r u so militant? It's like every post you drop in most of us don't quite know how to read you? Try to take some of what I said with a little tounge and cheek. A little sense of humor never hurts anyone.

So what did you not learn from my post? I even shown you an example o what kind of footage I get and made some suggestions (In my own funny way...maybe not to you). If you don't like it you did not have to respond especially since i did not quote anything you said...but...since you did....bless you my brotha!!:hv20-smilie03:

[angelo913]

You know...I don't know what the problem is with some people. I have had this cam now for over 3 months and I get great footage. I pan on every shot and get great footage...even when mounted in my CAR!! Like someone mentioned...every cam has its limits..some greater than others but nevertheles all unique. As soon as I found out about its limits...I worked around it....what's the problem. Instead of griping about it here...move on to another cam...there is nothing that has not already been mentioned here. it's ok to speak your frustrations...but it's not wise to continue to beat on a dead horse. Let's move on and help each other out.

All I do is shoot and Pan..pan...pan....I have no problems. I even accidently panned to fast in some footage..no slanting or wobbling in some of those....but I would never use that footage anyways. The point is...wobble or not...learn how to shoot properly.

Ths cam is unique in that you have to keep it away from low frequency vibrations. Here is where you will find that swimming. That means...don't sit on a spinning dryer...try not to lean it againts certain structures in your running vehicle (buffer it somehow)...no helicopter rides without a gyro...no telephoto handheld footage ( you're not that steady) etc.


Edit: Heck....and I need a front end alignment badly.....but still get great footage. That has got to say something.
http://fortvir.net/gallery2/P3U_videos/Ian-T/US+1.wmv.html

Yes, car footage is great example how well this cam performs. Do have any pics for your cam mount in the car to see?

Thanks...Angelo

[Galleddrim]

Edit: Heck....and I need a front end alignment badly.....but still get great footage. That has got to say something.
http://fortvir.net/gallery2/P3U_videos/Ian-T/US+1.wmv.html

That is some very nice car footage from the HV20. Just goes to show that it CAN be done. If you could share with us what your set up and settings were that would be great! Thanks for posting.

EDIT: Just saw the photos of the tripod in the cupholder. Hehe. Very junkyard dog. But hey, if it works . . .

[mik]

The point is...wobble or not...learn how to shoot properly.


the main problem is that it's a consumer camcorder, cheap entry level hdv. people buy it to film kids play and stuff like that. they're not supposed to use nd filters and tripods and know it's good to disable ois or not to go over 1/50 so they get rolling shutter issues more often. you can do that with other camcorders at this price... maybe canon priced it too low :hv20-smilie51:

[SenorKaffee]

Hey - first time wobble experience. ^^
I placed the cam attached to a tripod on an escalator and activated the OIS. Not that I really wanted to shoot something, I was just feeling the vibration and thought it would be my chance to see wobbling.

[Ian-T]

That is some very nice car footage from the HV20. Just goes to show that it CAN be done. If you could share with us what your set up and settings were that would be great! Thanks for posting.

EDIT: Just saw the photos of the tripod in the cupholder. Hehe. Very junkyard dog. But hey, if it works . . .
Ha ha...yeah..that's my ghetofabulous setup..but u r right it works. I look at that like a double negative (an unconventional setup for an unconventional camera = good use).

mik...I think you are right. This is touted as a consumer cam and with its little quirks I don't necessarily think it can be used "fully" like "ordinary" consumer cams. If I were just a point shooter (like most consumers) then I would feel a little miffed also. But I guess I'm trying to look at the glass as half full rather than half empty......so I tell myself this cam will force me to be a better videographer if I just learn to work around its issues.

I came accross a forum yesterday that's dedicated to the AIPTEK GO HD cam. It's a small for HD cam under $300.00. It utilizes a CMOS sensor, shoots 720P 30P and no manual controls. The picture is nowhere near as sharp as the HV20 but they (on that site) seem to love this thing. When I seen the footage...well...there was that shaky swimming wobble all over the place. The thread was long but no one mentioned anything about the image problems...they just kept raving about it (It actually has the Sony oversharpened look to it that makes my skin crawl). .....My point is they didn't care much about shutter, aperture, exposure etc. All they seemed to focus on is that it is HD. With a cam like that and seeing what the HV20 has to offer I think the price is right for the 20...maybe even too low (as you already mentioned). You can do a lot more to tweak the picture in the HV20 than you would with a cheap HD cam like the Go HD cam.
I consider people here as video enthusiasts where people on that site are more "point shooters,"

angelo913: By the way I had OIS off...as a matter of fact...I don't think I have ever used this cam with OIS on. That was also shot in TV mode 24P with 1/48 shutter speed. The Cocoa Beach video was shot the same way but with unsteady hands.

[directore]

(another long post)

To be honest I'm not learning that much from that clip above, must be too slow or something.

The clip is silky smooth but I already knew I could be that smooth (or close to it) especially with my old Elura 85. The point is I was hoping for something less blurry, something more like HDV.

I did a relatively extensive set of tests and I'm pretty sure anything below 1/250 is unacceptable because of motion induced blur (evident in the clip above) and "swimming" distortions are always present in everything at or above 1/250 regardless of any other setting.

The point here is not to harp on this camera, rather to point out its limitations so people know what to expect realistically and to suggest to manufacturers that going "global shutter" in the future would be real nice.




----
(two helpful suggestion for those wanting to do "car footage" as implied by this clip nevertheless)

Highway speed helps. (those who ever drove off-road in Mojave know quite well that slow drive over rough roads is a murder, you need some decent speed to fly over those bumps).

Also the clip appears to be taken from a much larger car than my short wheel base, stiff suspension and rather light RAV4. (invest in a Lexus SUV is the moral here, I guess)

Also it helps that the camera is mounted inside the car - middle of the wheel base is the best from the point of stability.

---

For reasons of optical clarity I tend to mount mine outside as shown below:
(the version shown here could stand some improvements though from the stability point of view):

[Ian-T]

(another long post) Yeah, those are the best kinds. Makes you wanna learn something new.



To be honest I'm not learning that much from that clip above, must be too slow or something.Can't help you there.



The clip is silky smooth but I already knew I could be that smooth (or close to it) especially with my old Elura 85. The point is I was hoping for something less blurry, something more like HDV.Ok...this statement does not make sense to me. Are you commenting on the normal motion blur you get with 24P? Or the fact that I filmed throguh my dusty windshield???? Ha!!! Regardless...it was filmed with an HV20...you do not see the swiming effects as you mentioned...and it shows the possibility of getting great footage while driving.




I did a relatively extensive set of tests and I'm pretty sure anything below 1/250 is unacceptable because of motion induced blur (evident in the clip above) and "swimming" distortions are always present in everything at or above 1/250 regardless of any other setting. You think so? That's kind of a general statement you are making there. Maybe you need to change your methodolog. There were some bumps I drove over during the making of that video where you can see a distorted effect...but that video I believe is almost four minutes long...even with my prior GS500 I would get a shakey effect driving over a bump...it's just the characteristics of both are different. Is that the blur you are talking about?




The point here is not to harp on this camera, rather to point out its limitations so people know what to expect realistically and to suggest to manufacturers that going "global shutter" in the future would be real nice.Here is that dead horse again. Man..you will not see Global Shutter in a consumer cam any time soon. This is something you will definately have to pay for in a pro-sumer to professional cam. It is very difficult to implement.




----


(two helpful suggestion for those wanting to do "car footage" as implied by this clip nevertheless)

Highway speed helps. (those who ever drove off-road in Mojave know quite well that slow drive over rough roads is a murder, you need some decent speed to fly over those bumps).

Also the clip appears to be taken from a much larger car than my short wheel base, stiff suspension and rather light RAV4. (invest in a Lexus SUV is the moral here, I guess)Hmmm...that's good...trying to have a little sense of humor....or is that sarcasm?? Funny. That is a Dodge Durango and that was not the highway. Don't let the name US 1 fool you. It's a road...and that area speed limit is only 45 miles per hour...but i do have plenty of footage going down the highway at 80+ miles per hour.





Also it helps that the camera is mounted inside the car - middle of the wheel base is the best from the point of stability. I don't know if that's necessarily the best option but it definately worked for me. I guess (as you suggested) that it depends on the type of vehicle you drive. I think you have to worry more about "how' it's mounted. Meaning if you can find some sort of buffer between your mount and any pat of the car's structure you can prevent these problems. It just means one has to be a little more innovative in his/her approach with this cam.

---

I just want to add (for anyone who's interested) the issues of wobble or swimming are not as bad as some would like you to think. In 95% (or more)of the case it is nonexistent...and a non-issue. That fact is stated all over this forum and elsewhere. There are however circumstances where you might have to improvise and shoot in an unconventional way to avoid this problem...but...usually you can overcome it. It seems all CMOS cams have issues with the shakes....but this is the first consumer 24P CMOS cam (that i am aware of) and because of the 24P it exxagerates the artifacts of rolling shutter more than in other CMOS cams. Just be aware of its limitations and you will be ok. By the way...I don't think raising the shutter speed will amke it go away...that (at least to me) has nothing to do with it...it's more frame speed that affects it (hence 24P). If you shoot in 60i the effects are a lot less to non at all.

Oh yeah....and turn off the OIS..really!!

[angelo913]

To directore:

As I said in my earlier posts, I have 65" screen any high cam motion and shaking will make anyone sea-sick with that type of footage in no time.

Ian's footage in the car is typical footage that is pleasing to view over and over. Your sense of acceptable footage is high cam motion with zero blur totally something I can't stand too watch. One type of high motion I like is clear high speed footage in slow motion like some scenes in the movie "300", but that requires a very special cam with adjustable frame rates to get the effect right, not shutter speeds.

In real life my eye's sees high motion as a blur so that is a natural effect of high motion.

The issues you bring are like for the 0.1% of the users who bought the HV20 and for Canon to come-up with a Global HD CMOS Shutter (which is a nice idea) is going to be costly and you're better off going to the Canon XH-A1 or maybe the Panasonic HVX-200 which has adjustable frame rate for that great slow motion stuff.

Let me ask you a question since you are so unhappy, would you of liked Canon to not even have even released the HV20?

All I can say Canon did an excellent job releasing this cam to public at such a low cost, which in my opinion will make great Videographers when they, the owners of the HV20 are "willing" to learn the ins & outs of the cam.

...Angelo

[Galleddrim]

(another long post)

The clip is silky smooth but I already knew I could be that smooth (or close to it) especially with my old Elura 85. The point is I was hoping for something less blurry, something more like HDV.

Huh? Looks like nice 24p HDV to me. Blur is natural for 24p. Even the ultra-sharp stuttered "Saving Private Ryan effect" is simply a result of using a 90 degree shutter angle, which would double the shutter speed (I believe normal is 45 degree), making it close to 1/100.


I did a relatively extensive set of tests and I'm pretty sure anything below 1/250 is unacceptable because of motion induced blur (evident in the clip above) and "swimming" distortions are always present in everything at or above 1/250 regardless of any other setting.

Unacceptable how? The majority of Hollywood films are shot in 1/48 from opening titles to end credits. I suppose that because the latest Stephen Spielberg film was shot mostly at 1/48, the whole film should be considered completely unacceptable because of motion induced blur?


The point here is not to harp on this camera, rather to point out its limitations so people know what to expect realistically and to suggest to manufacturers that going "global shutter" in the future would be real nice.

It has been stated here and elsewhere that a global shutter is not an option right now in consumer cameras. It would at least double the price. Probably more than double, because global shutter CMOS sensors have to be bigger, which would mean bigger camera, more expensive circuitry, etc.


Also it helps that the camera is mounted inside the car - middle of the wheel base is the best from the point of stability.

This is about the only thing in your post that actually made sense. Placing the camera at the center axis of the vehicle is probably a good idea.

[Worley]

Motion blur looks natural. High shutter speeds with their strobing looks unnatural. Motion blur better approximates how the eye sees.

[MSR]

Nothing in this thread is near as bad as what I see in my car. This thread. (http://www.hv20.com/showthread.php?t=2649) Is it possible mine is defective?

-michael

[iotatau]

Hi,


Nothing in this thread is near as bad as what I see in my car. This thread. (http://www.hv20.com/showthread.php?t=2649) Is it possible mine is defective?

It's probably standard behavior, unfortunately. The HV20 doesn't behave well at all if it is exposed to vibration. If you want better car footage the only solution is to provide some sort of isolation from the engine and road vibration. My way is to switch to co-driver position and use a Glidecam 2000 Pro. You can check a test clip of mine in 720p at HV20.com
http://hv20.com/showthread.php?t=1750
or at YouTube.
http://youtube.com/watch?v=xDdhXwUgdmY
Not a perfect clip but at least there's no wobbling.

[MSR]

Hmmm... Yes, that's interesting. When my wife holds the camcorder and takes footage from in the car, the vibration effect disappears (but then the problem becomes the unsteadiness). I guess our bodies/flesh dampen all the harsh stuff.

From reading that thread it sounds like you handhold your steadycam setup. Have you ever tried adapting it to a hard mount, like on a rollbar? If it was adaptable that way and such an installation cured the vibration problems, I'd have no issues spending the $$$ for it. After all, I'm past my 14-day return window on the HV20 so if I want in-car footage now I'd have to buy a different camcorder anyhow. $350 < new camcorder.

Thanks.

-michael

[marketmd]

Hmmm... When my wife holds the camcorder and takes footage from in the car, the vibration effect disappears.



Large breasts act as a stabilizing counterforce.

[ccc10156]

I have recently got my HV20 and I love the image quality. However, I'm trying to figure out if there is something wrong with my camera because as soon as I move the camera I get an extremely wobbly image that resembles a jelly, even at full wide. Not even the OIS takes care of these wobbles.

Here's a handheld clip full wide with OIS ON where I am walking up a hill: http://files.filefront.com/7340877
Should it wobble like that?

I put the camera on a home made stabilizer device and tried it with both OIS on and off, but that did not take care of the wobbles either. Here's a clip with stabilizer and OIS on: http://files.filefront.com/7340999

I have an old Sony DV handycam with EIS that produces far better results even with the EIS off. I've also owned a DVX100 with OIS which did not behave like this either. I've never seen anything like it before.

Am I just spoiled? Is it supposed to behave this way? Or is there something wrong with my HV20?

No, You are not spoiled, but You just see the same as I.

I'm trying making train CAB-rides. First I used my old trusty Panasonic NV-GS15, and using a solid tripod. With image stab on (this camra uses pixel shifting) You get seasick. The camera tries to follow any object in its sight until it runs out of manouvering space, then it just resets to center. Resulting movie is one that pans and tilts uncontrolably, rendering the movie useless.
Stab off, and a very stable Tripod cured the problem, no porblems, apart from the low res:hv20-smilie50:

So, how about the HV20?
Now the tripod is not stable enough, You get woblies and shaking:(

I do not think this is solely a HV20 problem, I think it is an OIS Problem.

In the old camera, lens elements could only move fore and aft. In this new HV20 with OIS, each lens element is mounted in a flexible mount that alows the electronics to move each lens element individually to keep things in fokus and stable. Therefore the lens wobbles when shaken.
Maybe Canon can modify the OIS algorithm to take better care of the offending shakieng frequencies, but that depends wether the camera's firmware can be updated by the user or not.

In the meantime, I will try to make some kind of shock mount on the tripod.
Ideas anybody?

ChrisD

[MSR]

In the old camera, lens elements could only move fore and aft. In this new HV20 with OIS, each lens element is mounted in a flexible mount that alows the electronics to move each lens element individually to keep things in fokus and stable. Therefore the lens wobbles when shaken.

I figured it was something like that due to the rattle noise. I kept thinking turning off OIS would lock the pieces in place, but it doesn't seem to do that. I'm not willing to do it until the warranty runs out, but it would be interesting to see if the body can be opened and the flexible mounts modified.


In the meantime, I will try to make some kind of shock mount on the tripod.
Ideas anybody?


IOPort has one that appears to use a big urethane donut. I didn't think that would be enough given how violently my racecar seems to disturb the HV20. I had a thought of building a mid-mount where the bottom plate goes to the existing the mount, the camcorder goes on the top plate, and the 2 plates sandwich some of those gel pads used for keyboard/mouse ergonomics. Do you think that would help? The trick there would be to keep the sandwich together without having a solid connection between top and bottom plates. Adhesives might be the way to do that.

-michael

[Ian-T]

I have an idea for anyone out there willing to try. But...I record a lot of music using my microphone which is on a stand and shockmount. I'm at work so I don't have an immediate picture...but..I was thinking...what if someone built a sort of elastic shockmount like what you see on microphone stands but made for a small camera? I think this would be a great solution for small vibrations for in car footage.

Edit: Something in terms of this...but in a way you can mount the HV20 or any other small cam.
http://www.zzounds.com/item--NEUEA1

[Erik Bien]

I remember reading about a guy making a DIY isolation mount similar to what Ian-T is describing to do aerials from an ultralight aircraft: he basically welded up a frame in the form of a cube just big enough to hold his camera mounted to a tripod head on a hi-hat, then welded up a larger cube inside which he suspended the small one by bungee cords at each corner.

I can't recall if I saw footage or photos of the rig, but I seem to remember the builder declaring himself pleased by the results.

[ccc10156]

MSR writes:

I had a thought of building a mid-mount where the bottom plate goes to the existing the mount, the camcorder goes on the top plate, and the 2 plates sandwich some of those gel pads used for keyboard/mouse ergonomics.

I have the same idea, but I don't think that these keyboard gelpads is enough. I think we need a pad made of rubber, say 1 inch thick and an iron plate to carry the camera-mount, weighing in at say 2 lbs. This way some force will be needed to make the camera assy move. In order to prevent this lot from tilting i looked at Ian-T's suggestion with springs, so how about this:

We attatch the lower plate to the tripod using the existing attatching thread.
Size of the lower plate to be some 3-4 inches in diameter in order not to protrude too much from the tripod. Then we glue some rubber on top and then a top plate to which the camera mount is attatched, made of say a slice of axle-steel or some large washers. To keep this in place, not just riding on the rubber, we place 3 springs from the top plate to each tripod leg.
We may use springs from an old architect lamp.

This way we prevent the top assy from tilting.

How does this sound?

ChrisD

[coolhairstyle]

Hey People,

Im new here and i dont know if this has been mentioned yet.

I think the wobble problem is cause by a rolling shutter, which the hv20 has. A while ago i had a brainwave to convert a oldschool film camera into a high def camera by removing the moving parts inside and inserting a high def cmos sensor. But when i emailed the manufacturer they saud that it wouldn't work because that specific camera had a rolling shutter and the image would wobble when i panned horizontally. They even linked me to a demo clip that showed the exact same problem that the hv20 has.

Maybe someone (slightly more qualified than me) can do some research and give us more infomation. And i thin that someone should definately contact canon and tel them to fix this with there next version of the hv20.

Thanx

[Norbert]

Hey People,

Im new here and i dont know if this has been mentioned yet.

I think the wobble problem is cause by a rolling shutter, which the hv20 has. A while ago i had a brainwave to convert a oldschool film camera into a high def camera by removing the moving parts inside and inserting a high def cmos sensor. But when i emailed the manufacturer they saud that it wouldn't work because that specific camera had a rolling shutter and the image would wobble when i panned horizontally. They even linked me to a demo clip that showed the exact same problem that the hv20 has.I haven't yet heard of any DIY HD camera that uses a global shutter. I think those sensors are more expensive. Correct me if I'm wrong. If people can work with the HV20, then working with a DIY camera with rolling shutter shouldn't be a problem either.


Maybe someone (slightly more qualified than me) can do some research and give us more infomation. And i thin that someone should definately contact canon and tel them to fix this with there next version of the hv20.It's more of a cheaper technology than a problem. If you want global shutter I'm afraid you have to pay more.

[Redsandro]

While googling for more on the Rolling Shutter subject, I found this topic. I already made a post about it somewhere, but since a lot of people with the problem are probably subscribed to this topic, I'm gonna do you all a favour and kick this topic.

Ghunnar Thalin has created an excellent filter called DeShaker (http://www.guthspot.se/video/deshaker.htm) for that other (free) tool called VirtualDub (http://www.virtualdub.org/).

I've mesured the HV20 Rolling Shutter amount for 1440x1080 @ 25p as 38%. I am not going to explain both tools, if you're interested you'll do some research. But with the right settings it's pretty good! Can be a real footage saver.

The remaining wobbles are because of the linear nature of the filter. So if you're just panning left and right instead of driving a road, it's probably even better.

Cheers for that filter, but still a big SUCK for the HV20. It is annoying and after filtering you can chop those borders off. Bye bye full HD.

[UNIVERSAL]

what is the OIS mode and where do i find it/Cause im experiencing some strange lines also and its not a deinterlace problem.

[Redsandro]

Optical Image Stabalizer
EN PAL manual page 36