I was so close to buying an HV30...

[wildside50]

All the awesome reviews, good looking footage on vimeo, etc etc... and then those dreaded words became a part of my vocabulary. Rolling Shutter. Now its all I can think about.

Now it seems to me that when most places review the quality of a camera's picture, they look at a still of it. Such as when camcorderinfo has all of those shots of their resolution and color board. For me, I can handle a slightly softer or lower resolution picture if the motion is good. This has lead me to think that a 3 CCD camera is a better choice for me...

The cameras that interest me are basically the canon competitors that use 3 CCD's:

JVC GZ-HD7. I really like the controls on this camera, especially the focus ring. The biggest knock on it is that the video quality is not up to HDV snuff, but since I'm coming from a SD Canon ZR-45MC, I'm pretty sure any of the HD cameras will look good to me. The other concern is the non HDV or AVCHD encoding which can be a chore...

Panasonic HDC-HS9. Decent reviews I suppose, though lacking on some features. Again, picture quality supposedly not as good.

That sorta wraps up the 3 CCD competitors I can come up with. I lean toward the JVC, but that damn MPEG-2 encoding...

So my question is -- are there any other 3 CCD HD cameras that compare in price / performance to these cameras and the HV30, preferably one that uses HDV? Or, am I placing to much emphasis on the CMOS chip and the rolling shutter, and its not really that big of a deal. I'm really not that worried about, say, vertical poles looking horizontal in the background. I'm more worried about bodies looking obscured in the foreground, or wierd frame skips. If a 3 CCD camera will pretty much always look better in motion than a CMOS, then I don't see myself getting a CMOS camera, I don't care how good it CAN look.

Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

[eelco74]

I was also initially interested in the HV-30. But Solid state camera's are so mutch smaller and have no moving parts. I did not like the grip of the HDC-HS9.

I now own a Canon HF-100 and I am very pleased with it. I shoot a lot of sports and fast moving objects. The HV-30 beats the HF-100 in fast moving pictures. But in terms of size, handling etc the HF-100 is a better choice. Unless you have really big hands.

I edit in Vegas 8 and it handles AVCHD pretty good. I have a quad core AMD phenon wich are not too expensive nowadays.

Check out http://www.vimeo.com/1127494

I also have some fast moving surf footage, but I only just found the best way to render and upload the best quality to vimeo. So I have to upload it again in a better quality.

As of the other cams mentioned, I have a bad experience with JVC camera's and reliability. And very good ones with Sony (my TR-PC5 DV is 8 years old) and Canon.

i know about the rolling shutter and Cmos, but I have not (yet) noticed it up to now.

[Ian-T]

I'm really not that worried about, say, vertical poles looking horizontal in the background. I'm more worried about bodies looking obscured in the foreground, or wierd frame skips. If a 3 CCD camera will pretty much always look better in motion than a CMOS, then I don't see myself getting a CMOS camera, I don't care how good it CAN look.

Any advice would be greatly appreciated.Hello wildside50. Honestly if you are that worried about things that don't happen that often (at least to me) then you'd be better of with another camera. So get the JVC. Every camera has its disadvantages...yes...including CCDs. Also...based on your statement it seems like your mind is made up already. No...there is no other HDV camera in the class of the HV20...that's because they are all AVCHD. The only other HDV would be the very same JVC cam you mentioned and that has CCDs (of course it now has a new baby brother cam).

In regards to the above description I bolded in red....I'm not quite sure of what you are talking about. Weird frame skips...if you are talking about off the tape...then any other tape based camera would be no different. Again...this is not something that happens 99% of the time...it last happened to me some time last year.

Also, you have to read up on avoiding those rolling shutter issues. Rolling shutter did not start with CMOS cameras by the way....film cameras for many years used rolling shutters...but in the end it's all about how you handle the camera.

[John Painter]

All the awesome reviews, good looking footage on vimeo, etc etc... and then those dreaded words became a part of my vocabulary. Rolling Shutter. Now its all I can think about.

Nothings perfect. But from my perspective sub $1000 HDV is real close! It's just like marriage, if all you look at are the potential problems (rolling shutter doesn't happen all the time, and all the different consumer cameras I've tried have their own quirks) you're doomed. Find something you like and you can make it work.:hv20-smilie77:

[nolonemo]

Rolling shutter is a total non-issue for me. I think it would be a problem only in a relatively narrow set of shooting situations. If that's not the kind of stuff you're shooting, I wouldn't worry about it.

[wildside50]

I just wish Best Buy didn't have a 15% restocking fee on Camera's, because when I buy a camera it's going to be the camera I keep, even if I dont' like it. I can't afford 15% on a trial. Ah well, I'll just pull the trigger on the HV30 (or possibly HF100), and shut up.

I know they're not prosumer cameras in this price class. I'm no idiot. I just worry about... I guess sort of the cell phone effect? Real jagged edges on your subject, or some displacement of parts of your subject when moving? I know, I'm terrible at descriptions... I should have come in with some examples of my fears, but honestly it's probably just a compression artifact from the 720 max Vimeo uses.

eelco74 : Very pretty footage. I have a Core 2 Quad 2.4 Ghz and 4 gigs of ram, so working with AVCHD isn't a huge concern to me, but the two pieces of software I have are Pinnacle Studio 11 and Adobe Premiere Elements. I prefer Elements, but it doesn't work with AVCHD. Also I don't care for the mini-hotshoe, but what do I know? I like the support (see this site...) that the HV20/30 has is all with lenses and such. I'm sure they'd both be good.

On a side note -- about how long does it take to transfer footage to your computer on the HF100? Say, 1 hour or 2 hours of footage?

[John Rambo]

i also liked the JVC GZ-HD7 when it first appeared on the market

but it has terrible image stabilization

the video shakes and stutters

and it costs twice as the hv 30

my info is from www.cnet.com reviews

check it out if you like

[Rumpelgeist]

JVC GZ-HD7 ... The other concern is the non HDV or AVCHD encoding which can be a chore.
See the wiki entry I've created (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MOD_and_TOD_%28video_format%29). 1440 CBR is absolutely the same as 1080i HDV.


Panasonic HDC-HS9. Decent reviews I suppose, though lacking on some features. Again, picture quality supposedly not as good.
If you are ok with the controls, then get the SD1. It has much better light sensitivity and mic input.

[Rich]

I lean toward the JVC, but that damn MPEG-2 encoding...What do you think High Definition Video (HDV) is encoded in? A form of MPEG-2.

The JVC GZ-HD7 is about as close as you can get without being HDV. Perhaps one reason is the HDV standard specifies recording onto tape.




Rich

[ShellyFM]

If it helps, my Best Buy said that if I bought a camcorder but
wasn't happy with it that they would waive the restocking fee if I
upgraded to a different camcorder. I've been trying to decide
between the HV30 and HF10. I think I've decided on the HF10. :-)

[wildside50]

What do you think High Definition Video (HDV) is encoded in? A form of MPEG-2.

The JVC GZ-HD7 is about as close as you can get without being HDV. Perhaps one reason is the HDV standard specifies recording onto tape.




Rich

No I understand HDV and DVD are MPEG-2, but it seems odd that to make it work with msot editing software, you have to use the 2nd highest quality setting. Not a good thing if the best quality setting doesn't look so good to start with... oh well.

[wildside50]

If it helps, my Best Buy said that if I bought a camcorder but
wasn't happy with it that they would waive the restocking fee if I
upgraded to a different camcorder. I've been trying to decide
between the HV30 and HF10. I think I've decided on the HF10. :-)

I shall try that ploy. I was there yesturday and looking at Cell Phones, I told the lady that my contract is up in august so I can get a new phone. She tells me a lot of time they can push that through a few months early if you get a new phone. Those brick and morter stores are pulling out all the stops to make a sale these days I guess.

[Rumpelgeist]

No I understand HDV and DVD are MPEG-2, but it seems odd that to make it work with msot editing software, you have to use the 2nd highest quality setting. Not a good thing if the best quality setting doesn't look so good to start with... oh well.
Properly written software does not care about bitrate or even frame size as long as video is encoded correctly. I had no problems opening 1920x1080 TOD video in Sony Vegas Studio 6 (I did run video through streamclip first).

[ShellyFM]

I'm going to get it in writing that they'll waive the fee on an
upgrade, and I'll have them specifically put on there that the HV30
and HF10 (and maybe the HF100, if I push it) qualify as upgrades for
this purpose.

[Rumpelgeist]

You do understand that the HF uses CMOS as well, right?

[wildside50]

You do understand that the HF uses CMOS as well, right?

Yes, I am well aware of all the technical specs of the cameras in this thread. After seeing some more footage of the HV30 (most specifically, the stuff labeled "motion test" from camcorderinfo on youtube), I decided to just be smarter than the camera I get, and work with its deficiencies. Since that is the case, the HV30 or HF10 would provide the best image to work with under $1500, so its silly of me not to get it because some people have a hard time with it. I'm not a good enough videographer yet to be complaining about things that can be worked around.

Edit: If anyone watches those videos, I love the juxtaposition of a pretty buff guy with a forearm tatoo playing fetch with a little yappy dog. Reminds me of the Taco Bell comericals "Big brother's rules to live by."

[Merric Reese]

Look,

HF10 - no question - solid state, comparable quality to the Canon HV30. You can't go wrong. If you are looking outside the Canon Stable then you are mistaken.

Regards,

Merric.

[Sean Michael]

Has anyone tried mixing HF10 and HV30 footage? I'm curious whether one can edit HDV and AVCHD in the same timeline.

[Merric Reese]

I edit with Premiere CS3 and you have to choose your project type (HDV or AVCHD) when you start your project to ensure the timeline settings correct but it will accept any type of video - just make sure you tell it to interpret the footage correctly. You can also pre-render HDV to AVCHD and vice versa to the required final format before import to the timeline. You should have no trouble mixing the 2.

[wildside50]

Look,

HF10 - no question - solid state, comparable quality to the Canon HV30. You can't go wrong. If you are looking outside the Canon Stable then you are mistaken.

Regards,

Merric.

I'm not very interested in solid state. I'm not against it, but I see very little advantage to it. 16 GB built in -- meaning 2 hours. I could easily see myself needing more than 2 hours of recording time before wanting to offload. So you get a card. Now you have 32 GB for about 100 bucks. For that same 100 bucks I have over 10 hours of recordable DV tapes. Sounds good to me. And I know that Premiere Elements 4.0 doesn't support AVCHD, and I like Premiere Elements. I can't afford Vegas.

[Rumpelgeist]

I'm not very interested in solid state. I'm not against it, but I see very little advantage to it. 16 GB built in -- meaning 2 hours.
Built-in solid state memory is an idiotic technical decision, I fully agree with you. The HF10 has no sense. The HF100 has.


I could easily see myself needing more than 2 hours of recording time before wanting to offload. So you get a card. Now you have 32 GB for about 100 bucks. For that same 100 bucks I have over 10 hours of recordable DV tapes.
16GB card costs around $60 and it is rewritable almost infinitely, well 100,000 times equals to infinity to me. Are you reusing your tapes?

Tapes are so 20th century. Do you still watch your VHS tapes? Ok then.

[wildside50]

Built-in solid state memory is an idiotic technical decision, I fully agree with you. The HF10 has no sense. The HF100 has.


16GB card costs around $60 and it is rewritable almost infinitely, well 100,000 times equals to infinity to me. Are you reusing your tapes?

Tapes are so 20th century. Do you still watch your VHS tapes? Ok then.

I'm gunna admit -- I do still watch my VHS tapes... but that's moot.

If I told you that VHS tapes looked better than DVDs, but DVDs had instant scene access, and better rewind and fast forward, which would you choose? I'm guessing you'd be in the DVD camp. Obviously, DVD's have the benefit of both better quality and those instant features, but its not the same in the HDV vs AVCHD comparison. Granted, AVCHD has some of the instantancy features, but it isn't equal in quality to HDV. To some, one is more important than the other. Its up to each individual to decide which is more important.

[tkmslee]

I own the HV30 for doing family footage when I am out and about and don't want to lug around the XHA1. I bought the XHA1 because of the wobbly picture I would get even with minimal movement of the HV30. The HV30 is a good camera, but the lack of color tweak, control, and a wobbly image was way sub par for me to use in professional applications.

[i_make_tshirts]

church

[Merric Reese]

I take your point on the 2 hrs of inbuilt video but I can't easily get the HF100 where I am. If the HF10 didn't have the ability to use SDHC cards as well then you're correct however with the camera I bought I received the HF10 with an 8GB SDHC card included. I now have 3 hrs of video. Most of my video goes on the 8GB card so the inbuilt storage is not getting used very much but if I fill up my 8GB card then i have another 2 hrs on the camera. I also only have 2 batteries that will last about 3 hrs so for me it's pretty good at the moment.

I bought two external 1 terrabyte drives to backup onto.

I also have a miniDV cam so I'm used to dealing with tapes. They are cheap and great for backup, but I generally don't use external mics for home video and I don't like the transport noise that ends up on the tape - the HF10 doesn't suffer from this as there are no moving parts. It also only takes me about 10 minutes to copy an hour of video to the PC an be ready for editing. In my situation and for my usage SHDC is very convenient.

If I go on a long holiday then I will probably need to take a laptop and consider my download and backup options futher.

[Rumpelgeist]

AVCHD has some of the instantancy features, but it isn't equal in quality to HDV.
Are you talking from your own experience? I had the HV30, I have the HF100 now. The HF shoots sharper more detailed video. Colors sometimes are weird, that is true, but this is tweakable.

[wildside50]

Are you talking from your own experience? I had the HV30, I have the HF100 now. The HF shoots sharper more detailed video. Colors sometimes are weird, that is true, but this is tweakable.

The only experience I can go on is the videos I've seen from both cameras and the reviews of professions who use cameras every day and have seen it all.

[John Painter]

i also liked the JVC GZ-HD7 when it first appeared on the market

but it has terrible image stabilization

the video shakes and stutters

and it costs twice as the hv 30


I have the HV30, I got it because I really need to save what I'm recording on tape (graduate school interviews) and I don't have the time to save to a hard drive constantly like on the HD7.

However I've been using the HD7 at work for a year now, and it's true it cost's twice as much. However the image stabilization is only an issue when shooting telephoto there is no problem I've seen when shooting with the zoom about half or less!

If you read enough about even semi serious videography you'll realize most shooting requires a good fluid head tripod, making the image stabilization issue a non issue. When I started using a good tripod it made all the difference.

The video shakes and stutters you speak of in the HD7 are, from my experience, the HD7's "rolling shutter" which are problematic only if you're shooting without a tripod and really spinning the camera fast on the tripod. From what I've experienced and seen, this is common issue for consumer HD camcorders, though by no means a reason not to get one you like. Practice and reading others tips and techniques will basically eliminate the problem (as much as it can on HD camcorders under $3000) for the HD7 and HV30. Both of these cameras and the new ones from Sony, etc are excellent, I think preference for recording medium is the biggest issue since long term storage (I need to save all taped information for my dissertation for a few years actually) has cost implications beyond the camera.

Good luck, hope you find something that works for you.:hv20-smilie24:

[Rumpelgeist]

The video shakes and stutters you speak of in the HD7 are, from my experience, the HD7's "rolling shutter" which are problematic only if you're shooting without a tripod and really spinning the camera fast on the tripod.
The HD7 has 3CCD system which AFAIK has global shutter.

[John Rambo]

thanks john painter for the info

one should always hear from people who have used a product before buying it

but most customers who bought the JVC said what i have told even the www.cnet.com review of the JVC

and by the way rolling shutter is caused by CMOS sensor not CCDs which the JVC uses